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FMguru posted:Surprise! Your cool magic abilities are actually powered by cthulhu monsters using them to break into our reality and wreck everything. Ha ha ha, bet you feel really smart now after paying all those character points for magic powers! I ran a series of campaigns in Swashbuckling Adventures (the d20 version) that were centered around Legion, the Barrier, and the Bargain and its true purpose. One ended up going forward in time to the 1930s pulp equivalent, and one ended up going backwards to the very signing of the Bargain in Numa. The same people in each campaign playing different characters all realizing how hosed the world was and trying to save it over a period of a thousand years or so.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:01
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Night10194 posted:I've noticed an awful lot of RPGs have the problem of 'Why would 4-5 of these nutjobs be hanging out together'. Many RPGs labour under the dilemma that they want to let the players play anything, but not everything plays well together. I think the best solution is to simply have a narrower focus and not let players play everything, or build the entire setting around the existence of groups of disparate player characters. The always excellent Delta Green did both, because it tried to solve the problem of why the bellhop, a university professor, and a private eye always end up working together: first, you really should be playing US FedGov employees, and second, you're all part of the same inter-agency group of FedGov agents organized into inter-agency task forces by the FBI Director. Of course, sometimes the excuse falls flat; Word of Darkness: Gypsies claims that young adult vampire-gypsies, werewolf-gypsies, fae-gypsies, mage-gypsies, and vampire-hunter-gypsies totally join up to go on road trips across the world to get life-experience and mingle with the other types of gypsies. Another example is Eclipse Phase, which claims that people from all the different factions are recruited to work in Space-Delta Green, but never really explains why a decentralized, anarchist-leaning group founded by anarchists would recruit people who hold strong anti-anarchist political beliefs. Or simply most old WoD games really, where inter-faction hostilities are played up as being very, very important, but Cross-Clan/Cross-Tribe/whatever groups are still the default mode of play.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:09
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I mean, in Ironclaw, it's usually expected you're playing a network of political allies, comrades in arms, and just plain old friends who are engaging in their various intrigues and ambitions as a group. A small core of a mercenary company, a watchman and their contacts, a noble and the men and women of low character and high talent that help enact his schemes, etc. The strong focus on ambition, position, and the fact that you're all going to be really good at your respective jobs makes sense for getting a clique of talented people together to plot their rise or their enemies' downfalls. But I can't imagine a party of UA Adepts. I can see a group of normal, street-level people but holy poo poo an Adept group would be like herding dysfunctional, unhappy, drunken, insane cats. The same happens in Feng Shui, of course, but there it's sort of the point. A pictish warrior-sorcerer, an ancient kung fu master, a futuristic monster hunter, and a mechanic from Detroit being thrown together by time is the least implausible thing that will probably happen to the PCs that day.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:19
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Bedlamdan posted:When I was gaming with some friends in college, I went into 7th Sea expecting a Princess Bride pastiche and hijinks, and god-drat it, that's how I ran it. You ran the game correctly imo. Congrats. TyrsHTML fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 18:20
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Night10194 posted:But I can't imagine a party of UA Adepts. I can see a group of normal, street-level people but holy poo poo an Adept group would be like herding dysfunctional, unhappy, drunken, insane cats. The same happens in Feng Shui, of course, but there it's sort of the point. A pictish warrior-sorcerer, an ancient kung fu master, a futuristic monster hunter, and a mechanic from Detroit being thrown together by time is the least implausible thing that will probably happen to the PCs that day. Well in Unknown Armies something that actually helps adepts function together is that none of them tend to be competing for the same resources, exactly. All of them probably want more Real Cosmic Power but, like, the bibliomancer doesn't care about a bottle of historically preserved mead while the entropomancer doesn't care about a copy of the Devil's Bible. Now if you have two or more of the same kind of adept in a group then you have a recipe for disaster, but for the most part various adepts and avatars can actually get along fine.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:30
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Night10194 posted:I've noticed an awful lot of RPGs have the problem of 'Why would 4-5 of these nutjobs be hanging out together'. Hell, Torg has a definite narrative focus (fighting the High Lords), but gives zero ideas or though to "so how the hell would all these characters from other realities spread throughout the world meet up in the first place?" Of course, you still run into this problem nowadays with the people who go into D&D wanting to play a farmer instead of an actual heroic class.
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Apr 12, 2016 18:34
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ProfessorProf posted:Basically, the stat-swapping modifiers are extremely niche, but we wanted them to be there if someone had a weird build that could take advantage of them. That was kind of what I figured, but it seemed like the sort of thing that could have a straightforward answer that I had plain overlooked. It's cool to see how many ways people have managed to burrow into the technique system, even just in the thread!
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Apr 12, 2016 19:24
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Night10194 posted:
That's why Cabals are so important for Global or Cosmic games. I think a lot of people skip over the Cabal section and just read "Cabal" as "fancy name for a Party of PCs". But a Cabal is basically meant to be a small-scale cult or conspiracy with a single goal. Whether it's promoting their kooky religion, burning someone else's kooky religion to the ground, secretly controlling city government, turning yourself into a magickal version of the mafia, etc. It becomes easier at Cosmic level where players are aware of the Invisible Clergy and almost every Cabal is centered around promoting a candidate for Ascension, trying to take down an existing member of the Clergy or trying to block someone else's Ascension attempt. All of these things are important enough that they could pull together multiple adepts and avatars despite their eccentricities. But if you just try and do "you meet in a bar" with a group of Adepts then you should pretty much expect things to burn to the ground
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Apr 12, 2016 19:34
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The storm has a name... - Let's Read TORG Part 14e: Seeking the Truth Like every other Torg sourcebook, Orrorsh gets some new realm-specific new skills. And again, thanks to the Gaunt Man's reality-controlling wonkery, using Orrorshian skills outside the realm can cause a contradiction. Research is based off Perception, and is a "magical" (their word) version of the core evidence analysis skill. Unlike evidence analysis, the idea is that research works off secondary sources rather than direct evidence, as well as a healthy dose of dots-connection by "reading between the lines" (their phrase) the "magical principles of contagion and similarity" (again, their phrase). I belive this makes Torg the first RPG to ever consider "looking something up at the library and drawing a logical conclusion" as a form of magic. In fact, this skill can't be used in realms that have a Magic axiom less than 10 without causing a one-case contradiction. Anyway, research always takes a few hours, and the difficulty of the roll is the Spirit or faith score of the person or thing you're researching, whichever is higher. Success means you get some info on the thing you're learning about, as well as a point of Perseverance for finding information on the Big Bad. If you get a superior success, then you also get an "intuitive feeling" about the location of the next clue. If you get a spectacular success, you also get an intuitive feeling about what obstacles are in the way. If you fail the roll, however, you get the option to become obsessed. This gets you a Perseverance point, but you take two shock damage in fatigue that can't be healed until you complete the research. Then you keep on researching. quote:Each day the researcher may generate a research total; if the player believes the total to be high enough he tells the gamemaster his total. If the total exceeds the difficulty, all fatigue is removed and the information gained. If the research fails again, the researcher suffers another fatigue result; the disappointment of his most recent failure has taken a psychic toll. This fatigue also stays until the research is successful. A researcher who takes research fatigue in excess of his Toughness falls into a coma. Unless the answer to his research is found within a month, he expires, lacking the will to live. If a character can speak the answer to him, the comatose character regains the will to live, and consciousness follows in a day or two. Occult is a Mind based skill, and is used in Orrorsh's unique ritual-based magic. However, that's all covered in the next chapter so let's move on. The remaining skills are all based off Spirit, and are all complex to the point to needing at least a page each of mechanics because god loving forbid you just be able to do something with a simple roll. Also, two of them are kinda racist. Shapechanging is only possessed by werewolves and other people who can change into animal forms. Normally, when someone shifts, it's involuntary and they lose control of their faculties, but if you're P-rated you can keep some self-control. Oh, and unsurprisingly using this outside of Orrorsh causes a contradiction. If you are a were-whatever, then Shapechanging has to be your tag skill. When you shapeshift, you can turn into any animal you want (although the game seems to default to "wolf"). Your animal form can be a different size than your human form based on the initial adds in shapechanging. You have the same total value of stats in each form, but can shuffle your stat points around between your two forms. The only limitation is that you can't change your Spirit. That said, you have different skills in each form: your animal form gets 16 skill adds that can only be used for skills that animals could logically use, three of which have to be put in shapechanging. And for more fun, skills have to be increased seprately for each form; if you have unarmed combat at the same level in both forms, you have to pay to increase each skill separately. When in animal form, your basic animal attack does Strength+shapechanging adds damage, plus you have the later-described monster abilities resistance to normal weapons and severe weakness to silver. If you get knocked out in animal form, you revert back to human without having to roll or anything. And, uh... quote:If the damage is from friendly sources (i.e. players trying to avoid having the shapeshifter lose control) the gamemaster may insist on a shapeshifting total, as described below, too see if the gamemaster takes control of the character. A character can willingly shapeshift to animal form by making a skill roll with a difficulty of 10. There's also involintary triggers: taking a wound in combat, or getting a setback result when in danger or when the moon is full. Trying to resist the change is a skill roll with a difficulty of 10 + however much shock damage you took from the triggering attack. Changing back to human also requires a roll, with the difficulty being based on how long you've been in animal form. The difficulty is number of minutes + shock taken while in animal form. Failing the roll means the shapeshifter has fallen to their animal nature, and the GM gets to drive for the same amount of time the character was in animal form. On top of that, failure also nets the character at least one Corruption point.  Pretend I said something funny about mediums and size here. Spirit medium can only be used by, and I quote, "characters born and raise as Orrorsh Gypsies". It lets the character communicate with the various spirits and Lost Souls that litter the realm. The trick is that spirits just want to talk, and as a result it's not uncommon for spirits to just tell the medium what they think he wants to hear so they can stick around. quote:Even very experienced Gypsies contact a Lost Soul who doesn't know what's what. Thus, anyone depending on a Gypsy for information must take care - it is an imprecise art. Using spirit medium has a base difficulty of 12, and success means you've summoned a bunch of Lost Souls. The Lost Soul with the highest Spirit is the one the medium apparently wants to talk to. This Lost Soul always has a Spirit of 15 plus the result points of the spirit medium roll. The trick is trying to talk to the strongest spirit while the other, lesser ones are swarming around. quote:When the spirits arrive they all clamor for the chance to talk with the medium. Anyone watching the medium at work only hears soft giggles and whispers coming from around the head of the medium. But the medium hears the voices dearly. "I know all about the future!" a soul will cry. "Oh, don't listen to him," another will counter. "He doesn't know what he's talking about!" "Do you know what I did yesterday," a third will say. "I watched people eat a pig. I forgot people did that!" quote:The bond between the Lost Soul and the medium allows the Lost Soul to use both bonuses generated for two separate Spirit totals. When the medium asks a question, the difficulty is equal to the highest Spirit or faith value out of everyone involved in the question. (For example, if you're asking "who will the werewolf kill next?", the people involved would be the werewolf and the intended victim.) The the Lost Soul then makes a Spirit roll of that difficulty to see if it knows anything. Failure means the medium gets incorrect info, success means that some information is given, with better success meaning more info. Oh, but if the question's target is Corrupt, they can make a Corruption roll to completely block spirits from learning anything about it ever, although the group does get a point of Perseverance as a consolation prize. And yes, if the monster makes the roll, mediums and spirits can never attempt to learn anything about it through spirit mediuming. If the seance works but the Corrupt target fails, then the medium will only get a partial answer. quote:Note that this means that the Gypsy can rarely be sure if her information is 100% correct, no matter what bonus she generates. The swami skill works differently from other skills because of course it does. Each add gives you access to a new distinct ability as follows: +1: You can enter a self-induced trance for a number of days equal to his swami total, during which time he does not need to eat or drink. He also needs very little air to survive. +2: You can make a swami roll to make disbelief rolls against Illusion spells. +3: You heal faster when in a trance: shock and KO damage heal twice as fast, and if you meditate for three hours you can eliminate an additional wound level if you make a healing check. +4: You can purchase adds of the true sight skill at one less Possibility. +5: You can use the swami skill to resist charm or persuasion attempts. +6: You can hypnotize snakes to attack people, move somewhere, or spy on people. Yeah. +7: You can purchase adds of the faith and focus skills for Hinduism or Findaru at one less Possibility. +8: You can disengage yourself from the illusion of the world: make a swami roll, and if you succeed you cannot be interacted with in any way until you choose to drop the effect or someone makes a faith roll higher than your total. The swami skill can be used in any realm with a Spiritual axiom of 8 or higher without causing any contradictions.  You got a little something on your face there. Lastly, the true sight skill is taught by some Victorian secret societies and the Findaru legion to sense the presence of Corrupt individuals. Using true sight involves focusing your attention on the target rolling against the target's Spirit. If you succeed (and the target is corrupt), then you'll see any hidden physical signs of the person's corruption. Higher rolls can also reveal the monster's abilities or weaknesses. But heaven forbid we give Orrorshian characters something useful without a ridiculous drawback or two. Using the true sight skill successfully lowers the group's Perseverance. This is because, and again I'm quoting, "The Power of Fear knows such knowledge is dangerous, and compensates for the use of true sight." On top of that, corrupt characters can avoid the effects of true sight by generating a Corruption total. If they beat the true sight total, not only does the skill fail, but that character can never again use true sight on that person. This does give the group two points of Perseverance, but since the group loses a point for the successful use of true sight in the first place you're really just up one point. Interestingly, using true sight does not cause contradictions anywhere. But since it's only useful against people with Corruption, it's pretty useless outside of Orrorsh. The remainder of the chapter is advice for the GM on how to set up an investigation-focused adventure. Or, at least, three paragraphs of it is advice. The rest of the chapter is an extended investigation example, my favorite part of which is the group having to make an evidence analysis roll to tell that a victim was torn to shreds. The Torgian method of mystery design involves creating a sequence of scenes with the following in each:
There's also some advice on how to keep the investigation moving: quote:One notorious problem with clue-based roleplaying adventures is the the group of players who wander off of the trail of clues. They may be on a hot lead of their own devising, or they may be confused, but they certainly aren't where you expected them to be. A good gamemaster rule of thumb is if the players' hunches do not contradict given or future information and do not warp the story, help turn the players' choice into the right choice. This is why it is a good idea to include where the scene's information might be found and where it absolutely will not be found. Such a goddamn mess. NEXT TIME: As below, so above
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Apr 12, 2016 19:40
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"You meet in a bar. The Dipsomancer starts with an extra minor charge."
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Apr 12, 2016 19:41
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Kavak posted:Kind of like how Hunter the Reckoning's art says Buffy and its writing says Frailty. Wick despises the D&D convention of the murderhobo PC with no family, no friends, no holdings, no social position, and no purpose but killing and looting. So he deliberately writes games where that's prohibitive or impossible. Supposedly, he got the idea for Houses of the Blooded from going to conventions and playing a D&D Fighter named "Fighter." Supposedly he did this many times without his character's name, much less his background, ever mattering a drat. So he wrote a game where your character's name and family determine your stats. A game about samurai is right up Wick's alley for obvious reasons. But a ronin in fantasy Japan is too much like a D&D PC...no holdings, no family, no master, probably reduced to being a footloose mercenary. (The flip side of all this is that Wick is a terrible smuglord, which is why he has to make anyone who actually follows Bushido a moron to be exploited by his pet Scorpions, but that's a separate issue.) Kavak posted:Was 7th Sea's lack of seas because it was "Three Musketeers but we picked the wrong title, art, etc." or was it more John Wick "Everything this game I wrote is based on is stupid and dumb and WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD JACKASS Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Apr 12, 2016 |
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Apr 12, 2016 20:30
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x1000"?
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The hilarious thing is his whole 'I will kill your family and slaughter your friends and your wife will stab you in the back and leave you for a Scorpion' DMing style is what leads players to make characters who are backgroundless murderhobos. When your DM regards your PC's background as a list of narrative weaknesses, PCs start to show up who minimize those weaknesses.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:33
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Halloween Jack posted:Wick despises the D&D convention of the murderhobo PC with no family, no friends, no holdings, no social position, and no purpose but killing and looting. So he deliberately writes games where that's prohibitive or impossible. Supposedly, he got the idea for Houses of the Blooded from going to conventions and playing a D&D Fighter named "Fighter." Supposedly he did this many times without his character's name, much less his background, ever mattering a drat. So he wrote a game where your character's name and family determine your stats. Night10194 posted:The hilarious thing is his whole 'I will kill your family and slaughter your friends and your wife will stab you in the back and leave you for a Scorpion' DMing style is what leads players to make characters who are backgroundless murderhobos. When your DM regards your PC's background as a list of narrative weaknesses, PCs start to show up who minimize those weaknesses.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:42
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But he's objecting to them not having those! Why would he be proud of driving his players to stop bothering with backstories or friends or families?  I loving hate John Wick.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:46
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Night10194 posted:But he's objecting to them not having those! Why would he be proud of driving his players to stop bothering with backstories or friends or families? The only winning move is to not let him be the GM.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:48
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Night10194 posted:The hilarious thing is his whole 'I will kill your family and slaughter your friends and your wife will stab you in the back and leave you for a Scorpion' DMing style is what leads players to make characters who are backgroundless murderhobos. When your DM regards your PC's background as a list of narrative weaknesses, PCs start to show up who minimize those weaknesses. So does Wick not grok how one leads to the other or does he hate wandering adventurers because he can't Play Dirty? "Urgh, if your social network is all the other PCs I can't kill them for cheap drama because they'll fight back! LET ME GET MY CHEAP SHOTS IN!" Halloween Jack posted:Pretty much everything Wick writes makes me imagine someone with trendy facial hair screaming "I'm an aduuult!" at the top of his lungs, so thank you for this. Well I wouldn't say it's trendy... 
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Apr 12, 2016 20:49
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Night10194 posted:But he's objecting to them not having those! Why would he be proud of driving his players to stop bothering with backstories or friends or families?
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Apr 12, 2016 20:52
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Wick is the epitome of a GM who doesn't understand that how you win at GMing is everyone having a good time and wanting to continue to play, you included.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:53
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Kavak posted:
*m'lady intensifies*
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Apr 12, 2016 20:53
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M'ScorpionEvil Mastermind posted:Because he won. Yeah, Wick strikes me as the kind of person who, when he can't have fun playing a game, he goes out of his way to ruin it for everyone else so that no one can have fun.
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Apr 12, 2016 20:54
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Night10194 posted:Wick is the epitome of a GM who doesn't understand that how you win at GMing is everyone having a good time and wanting to continue to play, you included. He's the adversarial GM of the modern era. Rather than winning by triggering a TPK with the Tomb of Horrors, he destroys everything the PCs hold dear and denies them any victory. The character (and by extension player) must be broken spiritually rather than physically.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:08
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John Wick the Man must have loved the first half hour of John Wick the Movie, but lost interest once Keanu started making any progress.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:12
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Everything Counts posted:John Wick the Man must have loved the first half hour of John Wick the Movie, but lost interest once Keanu started making any progress. One of the people in my 13th Age group is still very new to RPGing (he's only been playing for about two years), and when I brought up John Wick his face lit up because he thought someone made an RPG based on the movie. Then I told him the truth and he was baffled about why anyone would play games with the guy.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:19
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Halloween Jack posted:Much of Wick's RPG career can be summed up as "Show me on the doll where D&D touched you." I thought John Wick claimed to have never played D&D, or was it just 3rd edition he never played?
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Apr 12, 2016 21:50
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Evil Mastermind posted:One of the people in my 13th Age group is still very new to RPGing (he's only been playing for about two years), and when I brought up John Wick his face lit up because he thought someone made an RPG based on the movie.
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Apr 12, 2016 21:54
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Terrible Opinions posted:I thought John Wick claimed to have never played D&D, or was it just 3rd edition he never played?
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Apr 12, 2016 22:12
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Terrible Opinions posted:I thought John Wick claimed to have never played D&D, or was it just 3rd edition he never played? John Wick has mad opinions about D&D3E. By which I mean he has opinions and they're all him being mad. But of course this didn't stop him from writing an adventure module for 3E which he naturally hyped way beyond what it actually deserved.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:38
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IIRC, his plan was to show everyone what they'd really been missing and how everything else published for D&D was utter trash you should poo poo on. Great plan, John.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:41
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In theory, Play Dirty says to be fan of the players, but an enemy of their PCs. That way their triumphs will be that much sweeter for the struggle. In practice, I'm not sure Wick has the skill to practice what he preaches.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:47
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golden bubble posted:In theory, Play Dirty says to be fan of the players, but an enemy of their PCs. That way their triumphs will be that much sweeter for the struggle. In practice, I'm not sure Wick has the skill to practice what he preaches. He absolutely does not. Play Dirty is like a laundry list of how-not-to-GM advice, it's legitimately terrible and anyone who takes the advice he gives is bound to wind up with at best no group and at worst a dysfunctional one. I'll be honest, I'm legit surprised that as many people here jumped on the 7th Sea Kickstarter bandwagon given how well-documented Wick's inability to craft a good game, pen a good metaplot, or give good advice is.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:56
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John Wick being the author of a game/book is enough reason for me to never buy or support it.
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Apr 12, 2016 22:57
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Kai Tave posted:He absolutely does not. Play Dirty is like a laundry list of how-not-to-GM advice, it's legitimately terrible and anyone who takes the advice he gives is bound to wind up with at best no group and at worst a dysfunctional one. Yeah, I love 7th Sea but I decided my money had better things to be doing.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:01
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Kai Tave posted:John Wick has mad opinions about D&D3E. By which I mean he has opinions and they're all him being mad. But of course this didn't stop him from writing an adventure module for 3E which he naturally hyped way beyond what it actually deserved. Mors Rattus posted:IIRC, his plan was to show everyone what they'd really been missing and how everything else published for D&D was utter trash you should poo poo on. I'm not posting that goddamn thing again.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:11
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Evil Mastermind posted:I'm not posting that goddamn thing again. You mean this?
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Apr 12, 2016 23:15
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I think he means Wick's tl;dr rant about D&D3E.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:19
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Kai Tave posted:He absolutely does not. Play Dirty is like a laundry list of how-not-to-GM advice, it's legitimately terrible and anyone who takes the advice he gives is bound to wind up with at best no group and at worst a dysfunctional one. Or that his love of obfuscation has gone to new insane heights in 7th Sea 2nd edition with a new dice system which, according to numerous individuals I know who understand math very, very well, is impossible to optimize. For those who don't know, you roll a number of d10s then try to make groups of 10s with your result (or 15 for double successes if your skill is high enough). Apparently, you can neither easily predict your odds of success nor can you really ever reliably optimize or ever know if your actually increasing your odds of success with a decision.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:20
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Covok posted:Or that his love of obfuscation has gone to new insane heights in 7th Sea 2nd edition with a new dice system which, according to numerous individuals I know who understand math very, very well, is impossible to optimize. For those who don't know, you roll a number of d10s then try to make groups of 10s with your result (or 15 for double successes if your skill is high enough). Apparently, you can neither easily predict your odds of success nor can you really ever reliably optimize or ever know if your actually increasing your odds of success with a decision. But that makes it almost impossible to actually design for or do solid modification work! Why the hell would you do that? Oh, right, because he's an idiot who can't do game design.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:23
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That sounds like poo poo in the hands of Wick, but also makes me realize that a Calculords RPG could be rad.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:23
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I know that to some people "optimization" is a dirty word but deliberate obfuscation of one's chances is a really bad way to design any game.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:25
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Kai Tave posted:I know that to some people "optimization" is a dirty word but deliberate obfuscation of one's chances is a really bad way to design any game. To think about it another way, you can never know if going up in a skill is ever making you better at that skill in a meaningful way. It definitely is, but there is no way of knowing is it's by a significant figure like 20% or something like 0.000001%.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:28
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