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Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Alien Rope Burn posted:

Hello! I'm Alien Rope Burn, and my first post for SA was a FATAL & Friends writeup, and

Seven years of lurking?

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Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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PurpleXVI posted:

The Technocracy books are largely pretty alright, the Void Engineer one in particular is quite solid. It's just that it's already an extremely schizophrenic game. On the one hand the technocrats are evil... on the other hand they make medicine, computers and microwave ovens work. On the one hand the technocrats have to be playable... on the other hand the Technocracy itself has to be irredeemably corrupt so the Tradition books aren't wrong. And so on. Ultimately their solution was to go "The Technocracy itself is utterly evil and 99% of the people involved are bad, even when their technology is doing good things, it was developed with immoral means. So you can either play a villain or you can be the lone voice of logic while most of the Technocracy is either subsumed by outside entities(PS they basically fund Pentex for ?????? reasons) or their own madness."

It honestly feels like the whole thing would've worked better if there was no word-of-god on who was the good guys and the whole thing was just filled full of unreliable narrators like the oVamp clanbooks were, so people could make up their own minds and grab the plot hooks they liked the most. :v:

I think the idea was that the Technocracy is why you need medicine to recover from illness or injury, instead of moxibustion or leeching or just plain prayer, but if that's the case then wow, did they ever do a bad job of communicating it. Unless the writers actually thought this was plainly and self-evidently true and bought into the 90s alt-medicine craze themselves, which, Brucato, so v:v:v

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Kurieg posted:

1st edition Glasswalkers were basically the italian mafia because technology was bad and they still hadn't figured out that giving the Vampire Factions fur coats wasn't the way to differentiate themselves. It wasn't until 2nd ed and the GW Tribebook where they actually started to put some credence to the whole "Use the weavers tools against her" thing and technofetishes showed up.

Remember Rage Across Australia has that bit where the White Man is being divinely punished for planting Cereal Grains rather than subsisting at a hunter/gatherer level.

I wonder how they'd respond to the revelation that paleolithic hunter-gatherers practiced horticulture (protecting useful plants from exposure or pests, cutting away undergrowth that choked trees), while neolithics had tree farming.

Cythereal posted:

And yet, isn't the point of the Traditions that if they won, you'd need leeching or prayer in some specific way or the like to recover from illness or injury? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I think the idea is that if anyone were sick, they'd be free to reject that reality and substitute their own, like an even more batshit version of Armstrong's philosophy in Metal Gear Rising.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Cythereal posted:

To me, it also screams of the overly romantic views of low-technology (generally vaguely medieval - see most fantasy settings) life that started to become influential after WW1. Maybe not so much Luddites as a group like the Amish or Mennonites. A lot of the loudest voices clamoring for a "return to rural simplicity" and the like have never been without civilization's comforts, or realized just how much work and stress and hardship go into low-technological life.

In fairness, that was about the time it became clear that pollution was having all kinds of terrible effects on human health, as well as loving nature sideways, but the result of destroying all industrial infrastructure would probably be less idyllic and more Mad Max.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Unknown Armies makes it clear that magic will gently caress your life, while Mage posits that magic is awesome while also hewing uncomfortably-close to real-world scenarios like the Forest of Suicides. Mage gets poo poo for pretending it has greater meaning outside the context of the game, while simultaneously being so far up its own rear end it can French kiss its own tonsils.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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That Old Tree posted:

If I recall correctly, cWoD was adamantly "Hitler was just human omg man's inhumanity to man!" Nephandi and Wyrm werewolves and racist regular werewolves and ultimate mind control Technocrats and whatever were just hangers on all the way to the end…somehow. Which might sound reasonable in light of recent tangents, but considering he's basically the only one who gets that sort of treatment it comes off as cheap edgelord posturing. Like many of oWoD's problems, it could've been solved by just having some goddamn restraint.

Given the line' s canon of heavy supernatural involvement in politics throughout human history it'd be great if Hitler and Nazi Germany were at least partly consequences of all their cynical machinations that blew up spectacularly in their faces and got a whole mess of supernaturals killed as well. Like maybe they weren't behind the Youth Brigades or Kristallnacht, but they were party to the 1919 Treaty of Versailles, and the entire byzantine fuckfest of alliances that led to WWI in the first place.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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grassy gnoll posted:

Seriously though, someone run a Weird WWII game.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Rand Brittain posted:

On another note, people said some things earlier about editing and how RPGs tend to not get it. I'm wondering what the right thread would be for a discussion on editing in RPGs and how to do it right and why most games don't.

Hey, you're the one with firsthand experience, why not make your own? Blackjack and hookers optional, but always appreciated.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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LatwPIAT, if you've ever seen Zoolander, M20 is about as true to the life experiences of actual vagrants and homeless people as Mugatu's Derelicte couture, and roughly as tasteful.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Rand Brittain posted:

The thing is, the Guide to the Technocracy also mentions how the Technocracy employs mandatory obedience brainwashing because without it people keep defecting.

The GttT is pro-Technocracy but it's also barely-veiled satire, which people on the internet have been intentionally ignoring them for ten million arguments.

I think the problem with the presentation of the Technocracy is that, by presenting them as well-intentioned but fundamentally-misguided, and worst of all, competent, the writing unwittingly buys into the narrative of the Technocracy's real-life inspirations. It's an especially well-established and insidious narrative, of Hard Men Making Hard Choices, and to be sure it makes for good drama because otherwise where's your moral conflict, but a more realistic portrayal would instead make CIA-analogues out to be a bunch of freewheeling lunatics with an unlimited budget, zero accountability, and no capacity to distinguish between reality and an episode of 24.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Bieeardo posted:

I'm beginning to think that Brucato's problem is less that he has goofy ideas, but that he presents them as incontrovertible fact with nothing to show how he gets from point A to ~, even while he's busily bloviating elsewhere.

...does this make Brucato the Piers Anthony of elfgaming?

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Terrible Opinions posted:

It doesn't explicitly say that, but they're still based on appeals to Romanticism, and just like real life Romanticism leaves many implicit problems floating around unaddressed. Either the Traditions have a solution to the god-king problem that they aren't telling the class or they don't think the wizard god-king s a problem.

Nessus posted:

It seems entirely reasonable to me, and it's not like I feel the various fictional teams of wizards and vampires need to have a rationally considered plan and proposal for the reordering of society for the greater benefit of Joe NPC in order to have a positive or heroic role.

HOWEVER, by making it such an explicit part of the Technocracy's pitch, I think you'd have to have a nod at it, even if that nod is "Yeah, you're full of poo poo, and also running water was invented four thousand years ago. Rather unreasonable of you to act like you've got the patent, don't you think?"

All of this is exactly why I love Exalted, because it comes right out and says "God-Kings are absolutely a problem, but they're not going away any time soon, and they're the best hope the world has for climbing out of the shitter. Also the last attempt at genociding them just installed a rival faction of God-Kings who brought their own wave of problems, so maybe that's not such a helpful idea."

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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AmiYumi posted:

*Way to double-up on examples and still manage to gently caress up the rules, jackass. Is making breakfast "Easy" (Diff 4, one success) or "Complete" (diff ??, 3 successes)?

No no, making breakfast is a roll where each die showing 4+ counts as a success, and you need at least three successes to impress your anonymous fling, where one success would constitute successfully reheating soup and waffles and two would mean not burning the toast and eggs, presumably. It's not wrong, but it's still terrible because fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuck four-variable dice rolls.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Mors Rattus posted:

In fairness to Donald Trump, he also has not murdered people personally.

He has publicly claimed that he could and it wouldn't hurt his standing with his base. I am not confident that he is wrong.

What I'm saying is that witches are Donald Trump's core constituency.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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A game about supernatural, kinda-shapeshifter kinda-monsters that lurk at the periphery of civilization, bringing back the world's magic and teaching humans valuable lessons.

Another game about the same, only with lots of violence, abuse, revenge-porn, and general :whitewolf:

Golden Sky Stories really is the last nail in the coffin of Beast's reasons to exist, isn't it.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Tasoth posted:

When you put it this way, Beasts sound like they would have been a really interesting splat for Hunter where you start out as a Hero and eventually breakdown from trying to be a last source of hope in the World of Darkness. Beasts result from a specific set of hunter's gifts that warp the user so badly they become an entity so vile and evil other monsters stop, take note and decide to do something about it. Stick in rules for making Beasts as NPC opponents for the other lines towards the end of the line.

Play a Beast if...
  • You lack a PS4 or are literally allergic to good games and so cannot enjoy Bloodborne

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Beast reminds me of the second volume of Neil Gaiman's The Sandman, in which several of Dream's favorite nightmares have broken loose into the waking world and one of them - the Corinthian - has decided to follow his lifelong ambition of becoming the world's greatest serial killer. The Corinthian - in Dream's design, humanity's darkest fears about itself, a sort of cinaedus to the collective unconscious - becomes a legend and a boogeyman, preying mainly on American gay men by luring them into trysts, then murdering them and devouring their eyeballs. At the height of his reign of terror, the Corinthian attends a convention for fellow "connoisseurs", and it plays out like a really twisted, hosed-up Comic-Con.

Then Dream shows up, gets really embarrassed about how loving juvenile his "masterpiece" is, and erases the Corinthian like a penciled sketch so he can start over from first principles. Then he uses his mojo as one of the Endless to impress upon the other serial killers that they're a bunch of gross, delusional manchildren, and tells them to just go home already.

Beast reads like the Corinthian's self-insert fanfic to the larger work of The Sandman.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Evil Mastermind posted:

Christ, that reminds me of the time in the last Exalted thread when someone pointed out that using mind-control charms to seduce someone was pretty much rape, and one of the game's writers said something along the lines of "well, it's their fault their willpower wasn't high enough" or something.

For reference:

Holden Shearer posted:

Without commenting on appropriateness:

Most of this cascade can't actually do anything to you until -after- Hot Dracula Guy seduces you, and I think there's a grand total of one Charm to help him get that ball rolling in the first place. If you thought it was a good idea to sleep with Hot Dracula Guy, yeah, you may find your life getting complicated and unpleasant later.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Daeren posted:

He failed around the time he talked about the playtest game where one of the players was an emotionally abusive Makara who lured people into relationships and abused them until they absorbed the lesson that some relationships are toxic and should be excised from your life. But it was okay, she wasn't a stalker or anything, and didn't stop anyone who tried to leave her, so really, it was on them.

I'm not exaggerating a loving word of that.

As a man who has been in an emotionally abusive relationship before that was so bad I wasn't able to register it as abusive until she dumped me and I had a panic attack when she texted me a few weeks later asking to hang out as friends, that was the precise moment I went from "maybe he's just really screwing up his intended message" to "Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, whatever his intended message was doesn't matter."

So, Beasts are the Magic Man from Adventure Time. Got it.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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OvermanXAN posted:

I've been considering how to try to fix Beast quite a bit myself while reading this,

The best way to fix Beast is to give nChangeling some tweaks and reskins and play that instead.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Doresh posted:

What a perfect fit for the Beasts. No we just need to isolate these two into their own little sub-setting and forget about them.

Anthrocon: The Fursecution - A Storytelling game of personal drama, and shame

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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SirPhoebos posted:

I forget, what did M20 do?

Already covered here.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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NutritiousSnack posted:

Beast literally is the dude shouting at Hitler while he goes "wow, I just want to murder all the Jews. Looks like you got to learn buddy"

You mean that comic with the dude shouting at Hitler, right? Because I'm pretty sure the dude himself is a Hunter and it's fairly obvious who Reasonable Hitler is in this context.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Count Chocula posted:

I'd feel better about all the Beast hate, justified though it may be, if so many White Wolf fans in this thread didn't have detailed fantasies about playing the Technocracy and Hunter and gruesomely crushing Mages and Changlings with overwhelming technology and state power.

Why don't Werewolves- anti-modern eco-terrorists and gangs with a Klingon/Viking concept of 'honor' and a hair-trigger temper - get the same hate? They're the ones who'd justify all that Technocracy gun-wank.

Hell if you want straw man reactionaries to fight, the guys who'd probably support building a wall around their territory, doing everything to make their territory great again, and who's entire lives are built around hunting trips with friends are probably your best bet.

Forsaken Werewolves are emphatically not presented as good guys. They're :black101: as gently caress, and play a crucial role in the setting's metaphysical 'ecology', but they're a necessary evil. The best they can do is confine their hunts to deserving targets, because they HAVE to hunt or they'll go insane. If anything, nWerewolf reads like a metaphor for any kind of organized, professional violence, and the struggle to keep one's humanity while fighting in a war where monsters thrive - too much Harmony, and you can't do your job; too little, and you risk going full Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now.

Beast, OTOH, is shallow and completely tone-deaf about its protagonists' monstrosity, in addition to doing nothing that other, better games haven't already accomplished.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Bedlamdan posted:

The fact that so many people are willing to buy into Beast as written does show that what is supposedly a demented parody still has some traction with people.

Maybe that's what's missing from Beast as-written - a Natural Born Killers sort of reading of the incestuous relationship between Beasts and Heroes, like the whole thing is a sick reality TV show that has to keep on sinking to new depths of depravity to keep up its ratings.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Ahahahaha, those photomanips are goddamn shameless.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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I don't know the full details because I could never make myself endure reading the entire Dune series, but I remember a quote about how homosexuals make ideal suicide bombers, since they don't have to worry about passing on their genes, sooooo...:yikes:

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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I'm not sure why we're supposed to think unkindly of Granny Jones for assuming the worst when her son apparently (hard to tell, because White Wolf is allergic to clear writing) turned out to be a vampire who brings home girls to feed on and/or turn them into more vampires.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Night10194 posted:

Also, snake people with no hands? What the hell is with that.



(That does sound really impractical to play unless you *ahem* handwave it)

e: wait, what happened to Imgur? Why isn't the [timg] tag working here?

e2: VVV okay thanks. Why would they do that. Why.

Thesaurasaurus fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 13, 2016

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Night10194 posted:

It's simple: Those settings don't ask you to accept that the monsters/gods/whatever need to stay hidden partly because if they don't normal humans will push their poo poo in.

The oWoD was a setting where basically nothing in it had much real reason to stay hidden because humans were so deeply irrelevant.

Also Exalted, at its best, reads like a very compelling (if melancholy) meditation on how the history of humanity is the history of class struggle.

At its worst, it reads closer to Gor; thankfully 3e looks to be moving away from that.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Hostile V posted:

Little known fact: it is incredibly hard to differentiate a sufficiently motivated Vampire from a loose hamster, ferret, squirrel, pet rat, wild possum, mouse, raccoon or a boa constrictor in a frat house that someone left out overnight. Helpful methods of detection involve checking to see if the creature is capable of speech, likes human blood, dislikes the sun and has thumbs or limbs at all.

Depending on Humanity (or lack thereof), only the last of these tests might actually help you tell the difference!

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Crasical posted:

Shields exist to justify science-fiction sword fights, but they do it in a really lazy way.

Yeah, it really seems like Herbert had a Thing about certain technologies, particularly guns and computers, and bent over backwards to explain they weren't in use in Dune. I liked Metal Gear Rising's explanation better: the CNT muscle fiber that makes up modern military cyborgs is highly-resistant to conventional small arms fire. High-frequency blades backed by cyborg muscle power are great for hacking through the stuff, but the tech doesn't yet exist to put that into a gun, so most anti-cyborg ranged weapons are things like HEAT rockets or plasma cannons. This will likely change in the future but at the time the game's set, the full-body cyborg is the pinnacle of warfare, so enjoy the crazy robo-samurai action while it lasts.

See, you know a setting has issues when loving Metal Gear makes more sense.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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That Old Tree posted:

I certainly won't deny that Dune can be pretty obtuse, and that shields rely a little too much on an almost total lack of terrorists existing (though that's a little bit the point), but I don't think it's a really standout example of dumb world-building. It's especially eyebrow-raising to act like Metal Gear has a leg up on it because of the in-universe bullshit that justifies a cyberninja, but if you take a step back it's still all hanging on the most ridiculous premise about nuke-spitting mecha anyway that's only compelling (?) because Kojima is a master of Infowars: the Soap Opera.

The compelling part of the titular mechs isn't that they're awe-inspiring superweapons, it's that they're a blatant, bullshit workaround to a set of arms-limitation treaties that have yet to be signed, and now a handful of random idiot terrorists with daddy issues are threatening to turn a giant military boondoggle into a global diplomatic incident. I think we're harder on Dune because it tries so hard to be convincing and serious in explaining why the setting is the way it is and CAN'T BE ANY OTHER WAY, STOP TRYING TO WORK AROUND IT instead of just admitting that the author liked swordfights and space operas so he wrote a space opera with swordfights.

I dunno maybe it's a sci-fi/fantasy thing where the harder an author tries to explain the setting's physics and how they validate the worldbuilding the more likely I am to roll my eyes at it (and in fairness to Kojima, when he did this it was because he was TRYING to kill the franchise so they'd let him work on other stuff).

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Alien Rope Burn posted:

Let's not forget Metal Gear Rising wasn't written a half-century ago and has that much more technological knowhow, yet it also has stuff like Monsoon or Armstrong who are essentially magical for all the handwaving they do about science. I never particularly glommed on Dune but it's not like they're genre peers in any sense.

I wasn't implying they were, or that the Metal Gear franchise was anywhere near Dune in terms of cultural impact or relevance. Just that Frank Herbert REALLY had a bug up his butt about certain avenues of technology, and it shows.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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The Metronome of Port Talbot sounds hella God-Machine, especially with the steelworks that could easily hide a Facility in the gaps between Euclidean spaces.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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LatwPIAT posted:

I suspect it has to do with the influence of Objectivism on American punk. The punk in Gothic-Punk is not the anarcho-socialist, anarcho-syndicalist, socialist punk of the British punk scene, but those ideas filtered through individualist anarchism and Objectivism into what would become American punk; a cynical and nihilistic rebellion that puts the individual at odds with the an unfair society of sheeple, rather than the working class at odds with the state. It explains why the Gothic-Punk is so contemptuous of the poor and disenfranchised in the WoD, instead of rallying behind them. The poor are insufficiently übermensch, and therefore it is OK to use them as disposable snack.

And who better to sell your pseudo-Randian game to than the well-off white middle class, who've never needed food stamps or food kitchens, and have always had health insurance?

I always assumed this was a knowing jab at the player characters' pretenses to moral superiority (and at least for the Carthians in Requiem, I'm pretty sure it is). No matter how loudly you may proclaim your sympathies with the working class, you are still the privileged beneficiary of their subjugation on top of being a literal blood-sucking parasite. When the chips are down, you're far more likely to side with the vicious apparatus of vampiric society and the Masquerade than the humans they (and you) prey upon, even though those things are loving you too, because actually CHANGING things to help the proles would require real and painful sacrifice on your part.

This isn't to excuse all the terrible poo poo in the oWoD, only to say that I can't tell how much of it was a flawed premise vs. the writers taking a good premise and loving it up.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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The Sin of Onan posted:

Gilgamesh is good. It is also the only legend I know of to feature a man throwing a bull's arse at a goddess. But Mesopotamian myth is weird in general (see also; the myth where Inanna is so proud of either her sheepfold or her vulva - the words are the same in Sumerian - that she decides to show it to her father, who agrees that it's the best sheepfold/vulva he's ever seen, and then throws a party for it). Much comedy ensues.

e: sorry, not father; great-uncle.

I find it makes a lot more sense in the context of Inanna being weapons-grade crazy and threatening to open the gates of the Underworld to unleash a zombie apocalypse whenever she feels even the least bit slighted.

:boom:: "Hey. Uncle Dumuzid! Look at my lady parts! Aren't they the best lady parts? I bet you couldn't find a vagina as perfect as mine anywhere in creation!"

:stonklol:: "Um, Inanna, this really isn't appropriate behav-"

:zombie:: *Gates of Hell begin to groan and strain under the weight of the ravening horde*

:stonklol:: "You know what, you're right! You have the best vagina in all the cosmos! Why, *I'd* touch it, and I'm your uncle! Let's throw it a party! Please don't destroy the world"

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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Halloween Jack posted:

You don't, like, think this hasn't happened in real life, do you?

Okay, so you just posted XCrawl today. I swear I thought I remember you guys making fun of the dungeon cheerleaders in the podcast. I must be confusing you making fun of the Rave Drow from Urban Arcana with another review.


Hey buttholes: If you want to burn your brains out trying to fix a game, fix XCrawl instead of Beast. What are you gonna do, brother, when Umber Hulkamania runs wild on you???

My level 12 Monk of the 36 Chambers of Shaolin gonna drop the Stone Cold Stunning Fist on you, is what.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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wdarkk posted:

Only on Okinawa and maybe the Marianas (although not much), which were actually pre-war Japanese territories. The pacific islanders had a lot of history with Europeans and knew roughly how they actually were.

Also there is very strong reason to believe that the IJA forced the civilians on Okinawa over those cliffs, although the Japanese Ministry of Education etc. has dug in its heels on admitting anything ever.

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Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

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LatwPIAT posted:

The megahypercorps have enslaved about half the setting's population through predatory indentured servitude contracts because slavery is apparently economically attractive to them/they want to subjugate the poor so they can feel rich?

What else is wealth, when money itself is obsolete?

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