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WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

ProfessorProf posted:

And I'd be totally on board with that if it wasn't presented as something that's known about in-universe. It's bizarre that someone might want to kill you, but then go "Curses, he's too Inspired, I guess I'll have to throw him in prison and kidnap his girlfriend instead" without any kind of actual preventative force stopping him from doing the chopping.

Here is my the sum entire of my rebuttal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZalfcrwSU

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Spellbound Kingdoms definitely strikes me as one of those games where somebody's had a lot of ideas brewing and mashes them all together into one setting. The result is interesting, no doubt, but it also feels a little schizophrenic to me. I think if I have any major issue it's that the adherence to a leveling structure seems like an ill fit. It definitely shows the designer's experience with d20, but 1st level characters feel a little thin. Granted, I suppose you could go with the classic "start at level 3 (or 5, or whatever)" but obviously you shouldn't have to.

Having bought it, it's really good, but it's not perfect by /any/ stretch.
Like the way the game does feats/talents is really awesome but the talents themselves...just aren't.
And the classes have some real issues but actually do seem pretty balanced.

But it does scratch most of what I've always wanted out of D&D, so I'm pretty happy.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Apr 22, 2016

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WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Count Chocula posted:

I've been trying to put this exact idea into words for years. Do you have any information on how the name 'Obrimos' came about, derivations, fictional antecendents, etc?
I find nMage less inherently interesting than oMage - it's a whole game of Hermetics - but some of the alchemical symbolism is cool, as is the idea of secret symbols in the Supernal world. But nMage feels more about revealing the mystical truth of the world (via old styles of magic), as opposed to oMage, which lets you turn anything into a source of power - which lets you alter the narrative of the world through your enlightened will. It just seems less crazy and less applicable to the real world.

You aren't a hermetic, NMage is you are all high (omage power stat) Mage's who can dispense with the tools. It's one of most commonly forgotten things about oMage but every time you raised your powerstat involved abandoning your paradigm more and more for pure will working.
Also if you cared about sources of power and altering the narrative of the world, you don't exactly have an enlightened will.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

oriongates posted:

You didn't dispense with the tools, you just had very specific tools that you had to use for each flavor. That was one of my turn-offs for nMage, the fact that you couldn't really come up with an interesting, thematically appropriate ritual or magical instrument.

If i remember the rules on tools and ritual accroments are some minor bonuses against paradox.
You can just snap your fingers and magic at things which requires a very high(again whatever the power stat of omage was) right out of the gate.

MonsieurChoc posted:

If we want to get technical, oMage had everyone doing Chaos Magic while the new one has everyone doing a new type of true magic unlike any "real" occult magic, but most occult traditions have some fragment of the truth so someone using Japanese Onmyoudo is as right as someone going full Hermetic.

So funnily enough, if you take both game's metaphysics into account, oMage is the one actually being super eurocentric, despite it's appearance otherwise.
:goonsay:

There being as many grains of sand on a beach as there are paths to enlightenment is not however "Do whatever solipsistic poo poo you wanted." of oMage.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 19:14 on May 5, 2016

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

So right now i kinda have to wonder if like a 90s game with modern design is worth making.

The world is not as you see dark urban fantasy? drat straight.
All the "poo poo getting done" is centered on these super conspiracies and the super beings that run them? Ok, the player's are playing at that level.
Morality and Willpower and the beggings of meta mechanics? Ok why separate them, Karma is meaningful. doing awful poo poo burns your meta currency. Being a good person is what separates you from the other big players.
Everyone has half a dozen actions to compete? Ok, every powered charecter has half a dozen actions per round.
There's a grand secret a truth behind the truth? Give three examples in the book, let the GM pick one for his campaign and character's.
Etc. Etc.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Nessus posted:

I believe what you are looking for is http://somanykatanas.com/

Yes and no, definitely a lot of what I mean but that's still taking the piss. I was thinking of trying to take the game at least somewhat seriously. (As much as brooding immortals with katanas, trenchcoats and magical powers can be taken seriously.)

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

....The gently caress, gently caress beast.
Also did he compare homosexuality to potentially transferable and deadly diseases? I mean sure leprosy was a broad category back in the day but...people didn't know if yours would kill or was contagious.


Also That letter is actually a loving treasure.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 10:29 on May 24, 2016

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Daeren posted:

Mage 2e has a single reference to Demon while discussing rules about interacting with other templates, and the word might be referring to one of the other types of demon. Otherwise it very, very pointedly fails to mention the God-Machine in any way, shape, or form, and I am almost certain this is intentional.

RAW, you could probably infer the presence of Infrastructure with Space, Time, and maybe Forces Sight, but that'd likely just give you an incomprehensible "poo poo's hosed, captain" error message when you look at a bunch of folded space-time where Burger King should be.

I'd wager that if the average Mage learned about the God-Machine they'd poo poo a brick, then instantly get an Obsession relating to it and get their fool rear end killed by poking their nose in the wrong piece of Command and Control Infrastructure.

I have a problem with mage not mentioning the god machine. The God Machine IS the demiurge and it and Demon are the two Gnostic games.
So My Mage game deals with the GM heavily and i removed the seers/atlanteans divide to "Kill the demiurge/The Demiurge keeps saving humanity don't rock the boat" divide.

I Run it as since the GM runs on pure actual Physics of the fallen world even if strange occult physics Mage sight see's Infrastructure, Angels and Demons as such.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Kai Tave posted:

The God-Machine is nothing more out-there than your average Lovecraftian great elder thing, it's vast and alien and incomprehensible and you don't really fight it so much as work to weather getting caught up in its machinations and do what you can to keep others from the same. It even has cultists. I mean I guess they could have gone for Cthulhu mythos with the serial numbers filed off but I like the, as Halloween Jack puts it, material nature of the God-Machine and that you can disrupt its plans not with weird magic from ancient tomes but by hijacking a shipment of computer motherboards or burning down a convenience store.

Your average alien lovecraftian enitity isn't so incredibly material and physical. (as constantly noted.)
Your average alien lovecraftian enitity isn't the reason there isn't always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet,. (which isn't a thing for humans and yes why it doesn't work as well.)

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Count Chocula posted:

This is all just the old Apollonion vs Dioynisian/Romantic vs Enlightenment argues filtered through elfgames. But oMage and oChangeling do capture very real feelings people have. Maybe you subvert that. Maybe you're an architect who designs beautiful, magical malls or a doctor who encodes old runes in DNA molecules or something. A bit of Situationist detournment, like Unknown Armies does - it makes EVERYTHING magickal.

Everything doesn't need to be magickal, because everything is already magical.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

wdarkk posted:

I'm starting to feel that if a Demon could eliminate all competition and gain enough power, they could become a new God Machine.

Except worse.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Mors Rattus posted:

The second and easiest option is to buy a person's soul entirely. This is a much more significant pact than those used to bolster or create custom Covers. When you call it in, the human you made the pact with is gone. Their entire existence is consumed by your Primum. This isn't just destruction - they don't die, their soul doesn't pass on. Their entire existence is annihilated, leaving behind a hole in reality which you step into. Their life becomes a fully formed Cover, with their body as your Cover's human form and their personality and character as your guideline for how to avoid compromise. Soul pact Covers are exceptionally difficult to fray, largely because...well, there's none of the telltale oddities of God-Machine-produced Covers. That was a person's life, after all, without the weird inconsistencies that the Machine sometimes produces. However, you do need to be careful - stealing their life doesn't mean you got their memories, their knowledge or their personality, so you'd better get to know them first.

I love this, because it's just a giant honking reminder of alienly materialistic demons and the god machine are. "A soul is just a life.", You will utterly metaphysically annihilate someone just for their life, and you are mentally incapable of imagining any other value of a soul beyond the life it provides as a demon.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Returner Games-FFRPG 3e
FFRRPG Part 1: Standard poo poo

I was going to do BESM 3e, but eh never played it and i'll need time to digest it. Let's go with something I know, Something I know all too well. As I helped develop it for far too long, and I can tell you inside secrets of why it's a broken pile.

I'm going to rush my way a bit through chapters 0, 1, 2, 3 Because bluntly, none of this is the fun stuff.

Chapter 0- Introduction

This is your standard introductory chapter plus some stuff on final fantasy games as well, as well as a history of the franchise up to when the game was made and a chapter list, which you've seen if you've been here because of the games online lay out.
Nothing fancy, it's serviceable and functionable and I can't mock it. We will begin mocking soon.

Chapter 1- Playguide

Oh good, terrible mechanics FINALLY.
Not a lot sadly, but some.

Skills are percentile and range from 1 to 100.
There's a lovely difficulty chart which places heroic, you know the poo poo you should be doing, at -60. So enjoy a max 40% chance of success at mastery.
Since I'm mentioning skills and I never want to mention their abortion of a half assed skill system again. I'll note that your base chance of success is Attribute*3+10%, but if you put even one point in a skill you use that, you start at said 1%.

The skill system is so tacked on and weird because we get a much better system that fits the games blatantly combat priorities immediatly after.

Intuitive magic, if you want to use magic the GM looks at what you want to do, checks some keywords based on your class to see if it makes sense, then slaps an mp cost on it and it works.
This is good, it resolves instantly no muss, no fuss.

Great we are done.

Chapter 2- Giant Piles of Numers, I mean Character Creation

At this point you get to assign 40 stat points(though you don't know what they do or what your class needs) but here let me group the stats for you.

Vit is hp and magic armor.
Spd is initiative and dodge.
Spr is mp magic armor and magic dodge.
Str/Agi/Mag are all the same thing, they multiply your damage by your stat, if your class needs more than one ignore it right now and pick another.

These are limited by racial limits which are recovered in the races chapter but why explain that? All the rules for races are right here.
So instead of races being anything interesting they SOLELY determine stat caps starting and end game, maybe it'd be somewhat if they affected starting and everyone was human for end game stats but nope! There are no unique bonuses, no anything except stat caps. Here let me just chop down the race list to what matters.
Human- 10s in everything, absolutely worthless.
Mithra- 12 Agi, 12 Spd, If you are an AGI using class this is the best you get.
Qu- Remember quina from FFIX? Nor do I! But she has one of the few relevant races, 13Mag, 13Spr, 11Vit.
Tarutaru- 12 Mag, 15 Spr, 11 spd, generally better than Qu, but Qu offer more bulk if you want to be a bit tankier these two are the only time you get a meaningful choice.
Yeti- 13 Str, 15 Vit, the perfect race for every fighter build! You might say "But clearly if my fighter type uses mp Yeti are bad right?" Nope! Yeti have 10 spirit so they even make the perfect paladins.

Great now that your party is tiny midgits giant yeti's and a giant cartoon mouth, we can go to the giant pile of derived stats.
Oh but before that advantages and disadvantages.
I don't generally consider the disadvantages worth taking as they are all combat based and a giant opening for the GM to screw you, and that's what it will feel like getting screwed a disadvantage that is only relevant when the GM decides you should take double damage. However a few disadvantages are absolutely worth it because they don't materially affect you, 1 free point for making your mage blind? Weapon inability tanks your weapon skills and makes it so you can't crit, but only two classes care about that(it's 3 points too!).

Then is the combat modifiers aka giant pile of derived stats.
Mind/Dex- Same thing diffrent stat, these are your status hit chances modified by target evasion. Mind is modified by mag, Dex by Agi, hope your fighter type's statuses are flat %.
Accuracy- Uses Weapon skill(ewwww skills) and Agi with a class bonus, the AGI isn't relevant here because your fighter will have 130% before anything or just 30% because you took weapon inability and spammed your specials.
Magic Accuracy- It's accuracy, but for magic, and starts at 100. Why magic doesn't auto hit outside statuses, I don't know, why accuracy needs weapon skills and doesn't start at 100% I don't know. Why Accuracy is not just base 100% and evade can make you miss, I REALLY don't know.
Evade/M.Evade- Reduce the chance of success of anything that might miss, oh by the way there is no level bonus to these unlike accuracy, and if you aren't the right attack stat these tank further.
Hp/Mp- These do what you think, except the +1 per 2 points of vit/spr per level ISN'T retroactive, but IS retroactive on characters made at higher levels. So make sure to kill your character off mid campaign to get back your hp/mp. Did I mention most of the playtesting was at high levels?
Arm/M.Arm- So I saved these for last because they are dumb, they subtract flat amounts of damage from attacks(already dumb) and are % modified by vit/spr yes %modified, so you might think "Man I'm taking a lot of mag damage i could use some spirit", don't your heavy armor has no base M.Arm to speak of that spirit can modify.

Then there's rules on leveling up i'll ignore the numbers and tell you they assumed people would level about once a session, in a system where end game is 70ish level system. Where almost all playtesting went into the 60+ range.

Chapter 3- Races

I covered this, it has a bunch of useless flavor text but the only relevant poo poo was covered.
Yets, Mithra, Qu and Tarutaru only need apply.

Am I done rushing through the standard or fiddly bits, good time to get to the classes. Remember how I said they playtested mostly high level end game stuff? It's going to show, it's going to show SO HARD.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 2: Warrior Jobs, Part 1

So first off, I'm going to be talking about these jobs some what in depth. Secondly I'm going to at the end of my review give each job a Playable Level rating, That is to say at which the job can be called complete and new abilities are expanding the tool kit rather than giving you the basics.

I also should explain how warrior abilities WORK instead of having mp costs, they have initiative penalties. This means their costs actually matter, this means there's some variance in what you can use since you never want to pay more init than you have(taking multiple turns), and it means you can ignore SPR entirely. But your GM can drop a status on you while your attacks are charging.
God this is such a better system than MP.
Oh they also completely ignore accuracy and your weapons properties except damage, so ignore that death touch and go for the stat stick.

Archer
Our first off is the archer, the stat line is a little disappointing(these class stats are added to your race stats to determine your actual caps as you level.)
15 Str and 15 Agi, That strength is solely because bows are strength weapons, boomerangs, crossbows and guns aren't.

Level 1- Take Aim, This auto hits for 100% damage and while normally attacks don't apply weapon abilities this does with a +30% chance of any status effects except ranged weapons use ammo not weapon abilities.
Level 8- Charge Shot, This is kind of awesome it does 125% damage and you can at higher levels pay more initiative to deal more damage, most classes waste multiple slots for this privilege.
Level 15- Leg Aim, this inflicts immobilize which drops evade to 0 and disables reactions it's useful at low levels(where evade can be relevant) and for enemies with reactions.
Level 22- Arm Aim, this inflicts disable which disables the attack, guard, and item commands. Ie by this level nothing relevant.
Level 29- Mind Blow, For a whopping -10 init you attack their MP rather than hp, yeah skip it.
Level 36- Table Turner, This is neat in that it ADDS their armor to their damage, it's not neat in that it only does 100% damage for -12 init.
Level 43- Arrow Guard, Add your level to evasion against ranged attacks, considering you have shields this isn't AWFUL.
Level 50- Barrage, This lets you do 100% weapon damage to all enemies for -16 init(crap), but it applies weapon abilities AND ammo(amazing).
Level 57- Triple Foul, Applies confuse, disable and silence this would be amazing if it wasn't single target and -18 init.
Level 64- Unlimited Shot, your first shot has a 100% hit rate, second 90%, third 80% etc. They strike randomly but it's pretty great as a capstone.

Playable Level: 8/50
It's clear what the archer WANTS to be, a status based fighter who uses weapon abilities and ammo for utility, but the statuses they inflict in class can be rather situational. If your GM rules you can use ammo with take aim, then this class is great at lvl8 having a wide variety of statuses on a 60% success rate for only -2 init and charge shot for damage, if you can't use ammo it's not till you get barrage that you really make use of your class.

Dragoon
Next up the dragoon, I think you know what they do.

Level 1- Jump, You become invincible for a turn then land for 200% damage. This is amazing because the damage is multiplied before armor so 2 turns for double damage and a turn of invincibility(dodging pesky group attacks) is well worth it.
Level 8- Cherry Blossom, for -4 init you hit a group for 75% damage, You aren't really getting more damage for a long time, don't worry you don't need it.
Level 15- Ancient Circle, This gives your party Dragon Killer(x2 damage vs. dragons) if you are beating the snot out of dragons it's great, if you aren't it's arse.
Level 22- Lancet, hits for 125% damage and half that to mp, look every time MP damage comes up i'm not going to respect it, it's usually lower than hp damage and totals aren't lower.
Level 29- Reis Wind, gives your party regen this is loving amazing.
Level 36- Dragon Heart, a 30% chance on taking damage to get reraise but only 1/battle, why it's not just reraise the first time you drop I don't know.
Level 43- White Draw, Continuing the trend of dragoon's having random rear end poo poo because Jump&Cherry blossom are the best This does more MP damage(Meh) BUT it's an MP drain that divides the stolen MP among the MP users in your party. Congrats with Reis wind you have infinite sustain.
Level 50- Power Jump, This is a 3 turn jump giving 2 turns of invincibility, the second turn you hit for 150% damage to a group, the downside is all three actions have -16 charge time, it's not a straight upgrade over jump or cherry blossom but it's certainly serviceable.
Level 57- Dragon Breath, does 999 damage for -18 charge time, well ok it does damage equal to their (max-current hp) so if they've taken 999 or more you will damage cap, it's basically your boss attack if you want to push out more damage.
Level 64- Dragon Horn, This is a jump with a -20 charge time on both "turns", after landing you hit 1-4 random targets for 75% damage. Dragon breath is a better boss killer turn by turn but this let's you get that turn of invincibility.

Playable Level: 8
The dragoon is without a doubt one of the best designed classes, it's early levels give it two strong and reliable attack abilities, and the mid levels giving it ever increasing utility with a focus on sustain and mp damage, it's top end gives it new attack options but they are just that options, not really straight upgrades. If you are going to play a warrior dragoon has my blessing.

Fencer
Well from the heights of the heavenly, to the pits of hell.

Level 1- Swarm strike, inflicts poison.
Level 8- Reflex, Adds half level to evasion I'd say "so evade becomes worthless at half the rate" but you have the evade stats and shields.
Level 15- Feather Blow, your first attack ability for -6 init does 10 * Agi damage....oh boy i'm just going to get to this in the ending analysis. But suffice to say this ability is ok when you get it and falls off rapidly the other fencer abilities like it do not fare so well.
Level 22- Greased Lightning, Your attack actions ignore reactions, ummmm ok, that would require me to want to auto attack. Then again I might have to considering this class.
Level 29- Shadow Stitch, -10 init for 14 * Agi shadow damage and agility break.
Level 35- Checkmate, Inflicts Condemned and Slow. It's okish.
Level 43- Swallow Strike, -14 init for 16 * Agi damage to a group.
Level 50- Mana Strike, Look it attacks mana, my opinion is known.
Level 57- Nighthawk, -18 Init 27 * Agi shadow damage.
Level 64- Piercethrough, This is it the ultimate fencer ability......32 *Agi damage, IGNORING ARMOR!!!!!

Playable Level: Never
So the fencer is first off at war with itself it's trying to do a viable thing and a really pointless thing. The viable thing is it's attempt at an auto attack and passive focused AGI attacker, and there is a good auto attack and passive focused warrior, the fighter, they are next. It's other thing is using initiative penalties to do flat unscaling damage with no weapon component, it has 5 of these, 3 of which do nothing but damage! and you have to use the high init versions because feather blow and shadow stich do less than your weapon at high levels.
Give the fencer a pass.

Fighter
Oh finally, let's look at the class BUILT around auto attacks.

Level 1- Battlefield genius, weapon abilities and crits apply to this classes attacks, neat.
Level 1- Mighty Blow, halve your attack Chance to hit including evasion, add any +crit chance bonuses, this is your chance to hit with this ability which auto crits. At low levels it's risky, by mid levels you'll have Chances of success of 150+ and this becomes better than auto attack. Those legendary weapons that you go "Meh They have Crit+10% and triple critical" become a Beast in a Fighter's hands.
Level 8- Third Eye, Automatically evade the next evable attack against you.
Level 15- Scream, Gain Power Up and Agility Up, This is amazing. 25% more damage, +2 iniative, and +25 evade.
Level 22- Quick Hit, Does 75% damage but gives +8 initiative next round, this is an incredibly strong ability but it's just on the wrong class. The Fighter doesn't need to set up long charge times.
Level 29- Double Cut, -10 Charge time to attack twice, explicitly attack these can crit, miss, and weapon abilities apply.
Level 36- First Strike, ALWAYS act during the surprise round.
Level 43- Bone Crusher, Lvl/3+Agi% chance to use the attack action for 150% damage when you take physical damage.
Level 50- Slash All, -16 Charge to attack everyone, again attack.
Level 57- Final Attack, Gain an immediate action when dropped to zero hp, this action ignores charge time. You can't use a potion on yourself(as you have 0hp), but you can use a phoenix down.
Level 64- Finishing Touch, Inflicts Death, Stone, and Stop. Cute but the only things I want to use this on are bosses who have Immunity to those.

Playable level: 15
The fighter is very different from other warriors in that is mostly stacks passives and actually cares about weapon's as more than stat sticks. As stated he does the passives and auto attacks thing better than the fencer by actually doing that. All his abilities stand out as useful except finishing touch and to a much lesser extent third eye. But his playable level is 15 as by that point you have Scream and Mighty Blow is hitting at the 60-70% range that it always wanted.

Next time
The Knight, Monk, Samurai and Sword Master finish up the warriors.
Two of these are fencer tier, can you guess which?
Also playable levels in the 20s.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 3: Warrior jobs, part 2

Nothing to do, so i'll finish up warriors.
The first batch of warriors was pretty ok, classes were playable by around 8-15(wait no, that's NOT ok.), and besides fencer were pretty decent. The back half of the warriors really are the back half.

Knight
There's a distinct lack of witty openers to the knight.

Level 1- Life Break, It deals damage equal to your Max-Current hp this would be fine as a "Mid level" utility power, but it's your opener and has nothing to do with what knights DO.
Level 8- Armor AND Mental Break, you get both of these, they reduce Arm or M.Arm by 50% which is not bad but not amazing but it shows where the knight is going.
Level 15- Speed Break, This deals 125% damage and inflicts agility break(-2 init, -25 Evade/Acc) for -6 init, it's pretty good.
Level 22- Power AND Magic Break, FINALLY these reduce physical or magical damage the target deals by 50% these are an order of magnitude better than their offensive counterparts.
Level 29- Spirit Break, This is the same as speed break except it inflicts spirit break(-25 M.Acc/M.Evade) instead, why this isn't at the same level I have no idea.
Level 36- Thunder Slash, this does 150% weapon damage as lightning damage and hits M.Arm, that's cute but you are taking an extra -6 init penalty over Speed or Spirit Break for it.
Level 43- Climhazzard, Does 125% weapon to all enemies this is the first more than than 100% AoE we've seen and it has a similar init penalty to it's 100% contemporaries in fighter and archer.
Level 50- Lai Strike, 30% chance of causing death, if it fails it does 100% damage. For -16 init it's not worth it.
Level 57- Shock, 150% weapon damage to all enemies, it's a strict upgrade over climmhazzard for -4 init.
Level 64- This hits all enemies with Armor, Mental, Power and Magic break. It's -20 init but who cares even over 2 turns it's worth using over your old breaks. No better capstone there could be for the knight.

Playable level- 22
The Knight Is great for enabling boss killing, but takes 22 levels to get it's most important tools. It also starts transitioning into some decent AoE damage but that's at 43. A lvl1 knight just sounds painful.

Monk
Oh great, fencer mark 2.0 except your flat damage attacks use mag which you are awful at. Mind the monk is BETTER than the fencer, but still.

Level 1- Martial Arts, you can attack twice when using the monk weapons, explicitly the monk weapons.
Level 1- Punch Rush, auto hit for 150% damage for -2 init this would be broken if you had the really good weapons....
Level 8- Meteor Impact, for another -2 init also inflict confuse basically a straight upgrade to punch rush.
Level 15- Earth Slash, It does mag based damage to all enemies...oh boy.
Level 22- Counter, Chance to counter for 100% damage.
Level 29- Aura Cannon, Flat single target holy damage.
Level 36- Fire Dance, Flat fire based damage to all enemies.
Level 43- Soul Spiral, This ability is unique, you give up a certain amount of hp and multiply that by your vit/4(round up) and all OTHER allies regain that much. Giving up 100 hp to group heal for 500 sounds a good trade.
Level 50- Razor Gale, Flat wind damage to all enemies.
Level 57- Demi Shock, Reduces a target by 50% of it's MAX hp, capped at 999. Man this sounds awesome, and it would be, except it's classed as a gravity effect, which falls under fatal, which bosses are immune to. So go ahead and ignore it.
Level 64- Phantom Rush, Hit for 300% damage, this can break the 999 damage cap but with your puny won'ts won't....

Playable Level- Never
Look at least the fencer's lovely flat damage abilities did AGI based damage like his weapons, these are MAG based, also while those damage %s may look impressive you use weapons that at end game do 14*Str damage vs. the fighter doing 21*Str with a great sword
Hmmmmmm 21*Str well there's this advantage for 5 points that let's you become proficient with ANY weapon. Now you can take weapon disability, scrounge up 2 points and voila A great sword wielding monk slapping people around for 150% damage at lvl1. Now you'll be doing gob smacking levels of damage that will make everyone's jaws drop, but that's it besides Soul Spiral that's your character. It's cheesy but it's never really PLAYABLE.

Samurai
And We thought the monk and fencer had it rough, ooooo boy.

First we need to talk about "Exhausting the blade" whenever a samurai uses an ability they have a chance to exhaust their weapon inflicting them with curse for the next 3 rounds, which seals non-magic abilities. This goes down by -1 per level but never less than 10%.
This would be sort of fine(no it wouldn't, 3 turn stuns randomly suck) except IN ADDITION you have charge times.
Lastly the samurai ONLY uses mag for damage but gets no mag bonuses to their stat line, only Str/Vit.

Level 1- Iaido, A large collection of scaling effects that can do just about anything if you have the right katana equipped.
Level 1- Soul Blade, See the above but inflicts a status effect on a single target.
Level 8- Mineuchi, This skips the target's next action THIS ROUND sadly it doesn't break charges. Also it can fail, then curse you, skip it.
Level 15- Meatbone slash, If you take physical damage, while at 25% or lower hp, you have a 50% chance to trigger this. What happens if it goes off? You deal damage equal to your max hp, which sounds like a much better pay off than it is.
Level 22- Dragon Flame, deals flat AoE fire damage and has a chance to halve targets initiative, again no charge break.
Level 29- Double Handed, If you go without a shield you deal 25% more damage with one handed weapons. But....you have no weapon attacks.
Level 36- Shooting star, attempts to eject target and deals 18*Mag damage on a miss.
Level 43- Shirahadori, Adds your level to evasion against melee attacks, which you have a shield so not bad.
Level 50- Banishing Blade, Deals 28*Mag damage and Armor/Mental/Power/Magic break to one target.
Level 57- Tornado, Deals 14*Mag fire and 14*Mag wind damage to all enemies ignoring arm.
Level 64- Meikyo Shisui, Ignore your CT to auto curse yourself. I mean I guess as a finisher.

Playable at: 1/Never
The samurai is....interesting, If they didn't have charge times I'd call them a legit attempt at a damage code fighter, with lower level abilities eventually becoming free use...But they do. Which kills them dead in the water, so any interesting dies with the simple fact they are reliant on a stat they are bad at for everything and need CT to do it with their lower abilities just becoming weaker and weaker. Looking at banishing blade for instance, it does only 28*Mag damage about 125% damage for a CT-14 ability. It's just awful.

Sword Master
Yeah this class was broke in the previous edition, let's see how it holds up.

Level 1- Delay Attack, Deals 100% damage and halves the target's initiative also BREAKS CHARGES. Boss doing something with -12? Delay attack turn skipped.
Level 8- Dispatch, Deals 125% damage nothing fancy.
Level 15- Fated Circle, This is exactly like Cherry Blossoms doing 75% damage to a group but has a higher init penalty. Man Cherry blossoms is amazing.
Level 22- Provoke, It does what you think it does, why isn't this on the fighter?
Level 29- Cross Slash, Inflicts 150% damage and disable.
Level 36- Spiral Cut, Inflicts 150% damage ignoring armor, this is extremely niche over the quicker cross slash or the next ability.
Level 43- Blade Beam, Inflicts 150% damage to the primary enemy and 75% to everyone else, This is amazing.
Level 50- Strikeback, Has a 30% chance when attacked to just evade and hit them.
Level 57- Flurry, Hit four times at random for 100% damage, this is your real capstone.
Level 64- Cleave, Mass Instant death, better than finishing touch because it's an AoE.

Playable at: 15
Swordmaster isn't a god class but it isn't bad, a number of it's abilities are lacking and it severely lacks utility, but if it's straightforward brute force from a warrior class the swordmaster beats everything but Great Sword Monk, and has enough tricks to be worth playing. Delay Attack/Dispatch/Fated Circle is probably the best -2/-4/-6 set any warrior class gets, blade beam and flurry are the big upgrades from that basic tool kit sure they are "more damage" but that's what you came for and Cross Slash and Spiral Cut are hardly worthless just somewhat useful utility.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

My apologies for interrupting chaos corner, but I started this.

FFRRPG Part 4: Expert Jobs Part 1

So unlike warriors who are rather straight forward Experts are mostly furiously dumb, also we have to bring in the terrible skill system again.
Expert ability CoS is based on Half Key Skill+Lvl+Main Stat*2, So I need to remember the terrible skill system. A skill can start with a max of 40% and can be raised by 10% per level(of the 20 points you get) up to 100% so after wasting half your skill advancement for 6 levels you hit 100% in your key skill. This gives you an Expertise of 50+Lvl+Stat*2....The same chances fighters have been using since lvl 1. WHAT IS THE POINT, WHY NOT JUST SAY THEY START WITH 100% IN THEIR ASSOCIATED SKILL AND USE THE NORMAL MIND AND DEX SCORES.

Right, that complaining over, the jobs themselves are mostly a flaming pile like expertise, except the Bard and Chemist....who we start with.


The Bard
Bards have a charge time on their abilities, bards have basically a magic school. Now as dumb as picking spells is, Bards get EVERY SONG SPELL OF THEIR LEVEL ALL OF THEM.
Also all bard songs either hit all enemies or all allies, I'm just going to list the giant long list of statuses they can apply at level up.

Level 1-Hide, oh you can also hide which is the invincibility portion of dragoon's jump if you don't want to apply AoE status effects.
Level 1-Reduce Init by 25%(doesn't break charge), Spirit Up, Agility Up, 1*Mag Water Damage.
Level 10- Sleep, Mental Up, Armor Up, 4*Mag Shadow damage with a chance of curse(Black mages don't get access to single target curse til 33)
Level 19- Poison, Power Up, Magic Up, 7*Mag damage with a chance of silence
Level 28- Eject if hp 25% or lower, Add element to all weapons, Gain Resistance to any element, 10*Mag damage ignoring every defense short of invincibility
Level 37- Reduce init by 50%(no charge break still), Accuracy & Critical Up, I: Sleep Poison Blind Berserk Zombie, 13*Mag damage with a chance to slow
Level 46- Reduce hp by 50%, Reduce mp by 50%, Regen, Random positive status
Level 55- Mini, Reduce mp use by 25%, Protect AND Shell, 19*Mag damage with a chance to confuse
Level 64- Inflict weak to any element, Haste, Power Magic Armor and Mental Up, 22 * Mag with a chance to petrify

Playable Level: 1
The bards ability to grant tons of statuses for the entire party is straight up, no joke, broken. I could nominally diss their Flat damage CT abilities....but why? Who cares? You have so many abilities you aren't missing out having one attack per ability tier. Sure some of their abilities are kinda weak, but again who cares you have so many that are so good. Like there's not enough I can say about how crazy brokenly good the bard is.

Chemist
Oh boy the chemist, chemists are the only other playable expert along with bard. They are also the ONLY viable replacement for a white mage, which yes a healer is mandatory, this is an FF game remember?

Level 1- Pharmacology, This is the core of your class and a potent ability. Recovery items get x2 as effective, Raise items heal 25% max hp, and Status healers grant immunity to the status. THIS IS AMAZING.
Level 11- Treatment, Negates any bad effects from negative statuses until the end of the turn. It also hits the entire party. Also the statuses will wear off even while you use treatment. Don't have the cure? Just treat it.
Level 22- Distribute, Any overhealing from your items you get to divide up, if you use a group item only one person's excess gets distributed, if you use an item that full heals the overhealing is their current hp/mp. Ummmm yeah, This is just good not much to say.
Level 34- Mix, groan gently caress mix, while it only uses normal items you have to consult a giant rear end chart with i poo poo you not 304 results to get what happened from the two things you mixed. This is a HELL of a lot of power and utility at your finger tips, but consulting the chart is awful. Also Graviball+Ink, You're welcome.
Level 47- W-Item, When you use the item action you get to do it twice, no CT or anything here, you just get to chuck two items.
Level 61- Auto Potion, Are you hit by something? Are you alive? Use any item that helps deal with what hit you.

Playable Level: 1
Chemists as stated are the only viable heal slave than the white mage, they are possibly better at that, they don't obsolete the whitemage but they sure are good. They also have a lot of power and versatility at high levels with Mix and W-Item allowing them to basically do anything(for a chart) or chuck two different relevant effects at once. Also their expertise skill is alchemy which let's them use the crafting rules to brew potions, you know those items you'll by consuming by the buckets since you replaced the whitemage? Also yes there are crafting rules, they don't make me want to tear my hair out beyond their existence.
Welp as noted, this is the last playable expert, it's all down hill from here.

Dancer
Ahhahahahhahaha, oh my god, dancers, sweet god dancers.
You pick an ability tier, roll 1d6 on 1-5 you use that ability on a 6 you make a normal attack doing 75% damage.

Level 1- Flirt, This makes people not attack you, it uses your mind and not your expertise, on the plus side that means it isn't randomly poo poo until lvl7, on the downside it uses your MAG instead of AGI.
Level 1- Perform tier 1, Sleep, Poison, Confuse, 50% attack damage as mp damage, Blind
Level 15- Perform tier 2, Slow, 50% attack damage drains, Share someone's "Space" making them take the damage you do, Cancel all barrier statuses on enemies, Reduce enemy hp by 33%
Level 30- Perform tier 3- Sap(time poison), attack ground for 100%, Petrify(stoned in 4 turns), Power down(a shity version or power break) with a chance to crit into power break, magic down with a chance to crit into magic break
Level 45- Perform tier 4- Random status on all enemies, attack for 100% and 50% to mp, Mini, Death, Weak to Element
Level 60- Perform tier 5- Attack for 200%, Skip next action for all enemies, Meltdown(Def=0) on all enemies, Venom(Super poison), Dance twice

Playable Level- Completely Unplayable
This class isn't a never, it's just unplayable, let's ignore the 1/6th chance of your abilities randomly defaulting to "Attack but worse". The ability you get is COMPLETELY RANDOM, all you do is dance and that requires a die roll every time, and god help you if you need a specific debilitating status or you roll something the enemy is immune to, or you absolutely need a certain single option like the barrier break. Ignore the dancer and never look back.

Engineer
loving hell you actually have to play with the crafting rules.

Level 1- Invention, This is basically a full class progression in itself, that you custom make. There's a number of limits for how many points you can spend, what effects you can apply, and you can only have one invention of each "Tier" (1 at 1, 1 at 2 etc.), it uses a point system to create abilities. So yeah basically whatever your party doesn't need go supply it. You also have to put a defect on these, these include chance of shooting yourself(or the enemy with positive statuses), charge time, pretend your a samurai but with no CT, chance to just fail, or pay money every time you use the invention. For your starting invention I suggest single target damage 4*Agi with charge time, that will put you above the great sword monk.
Level 11- Peep, It let's you see enemy stats. Useful enough I suppose.
Level 22- Reclaim, A CHANCE to get crafting materials for your inventions after CONSTRUCT type enemies were slain in a battle.
Level 34- Dismantler, Fast action death but only on constructs. Who are likely to be immune to death by flavor...
Level 47- Maintance, grants the party immune:Weaken status(Stat down/break) doesn't remove any existing ones so when you find a use it's a bit late.
Level 61- Dual Invention, You can use two lvl5 or lower inventions.

Playable level- 8
I'll say 8 because you have your 4*Agi death beam and an invention that does something useful. That doesn't make this class GOOD. Invention is a giant loving hassle for both you the player(Having to make inventions), and the GM(the ability to rearrange basically your entire kit functionally at will is kinda stupid.). This isn't a bad class in the power sense, Not at all it's plenty breakable as the 4*Agi lvl1 laser shows, it's just TERRIBLY TERRIBLY DESIGNED going against all the core precepts of the other classes. But hey maybe that's what you want, that case go use your big engineer brain to have the perfect tool for every occasion by "mid" level.

Gambler
Hahahahhahaha, oh my god, it's back to randomness isn't it? Yes, yes it is.

Level 1- Fortune, You get critical hits and crit succeed skill checks at 1-20 it's...there? It's cute to get +Out of Combat Crit.
Level 1- Double Up, When you use a slot you can pay 50% more gill to roll twice...Yes, slots cost gill, because RANDOM OUTCOMES isn't enough of a payment. If you get the same result on both dice you lose your action and take 10% max hp damage, yay.
Level 15- Dice, Roll 2d6 multiply by your level, do that much damage. It's ummmm, it exists? It does ok damage when you get it I guess?
Level 29- Lucky 7, Anytime your final digit of hp drops to 7 from damage counter for 7 damage if you miss, 77 on a hit, or 777 on a crit. This is will occasionally just kill poo poo at the level you get it, but that's rare and at later levels it has to crit to do relevant damage.
Level 36- Do Over, Repay for a slot to try again but if you get the same result lose your action and take 10% max hp damage.
Level 36- Bribe, Pay a monster for a chance at success based on it's gil value(which you don't know), if you succeed it is ejected and drops it's very rare item. Just, just, WHAT? There is so much wrong here I can't begin to fathom, pay money and an action for a basically random chance of success, which if you succeed you get the very rare item of the monster(But not the exp or gp.)
Level 43- Phantom Dice, no draw back random statuses to the group, now THIS is what i'd expect from the gambler, pay randomness for powerful effects. Positive statuses include exp and gp up, i poo poo you not.
Level 64- Spare Change, Spend an amount of gil deal that much/10 to all enemies max of 999. Now see, this is a fine ability for chucking around gil. It just works. Get it at lvl64 though.
Wait where are the slots you have two abilities refrencing slots, well they are listed after all that so I'll save them.
Level 1- Elemental Reels, Roll to attack with a random element....Wow this was nerfed this used to be roll three times pick one and if you got three of the same you hit a group with that element. This is crap, never use it. 10gil a wasted action.
Level 8- Moogle Reels, Pay 25 gil and roll a d10 to see what you MIGHT do, then make two gambling checks if either fail either you get the lovely toy box effect, of course you have 100% gambling so you could ignore this if the best 2 effects didn't apply a -20 and -30 to your skill check. Still it's a decent array of effects for the level you get it.
Level 22- Status Reels, Pay 50 gil and roll a d10 to see what status you might hit everyone with, use expertise-evasion one for the highest evade target one for the lowest if one succeeds hit a random enemy with that status if both succeed hit all enemies with that status. Monsters unlike players add lvl to evade so there's a good chance this doesn't work, pass.
Level 43- Chocobo Reels, Pay 200 gil to use the upgraded moogle reels, everything but the weakest result has a gambling penalty now but the fail result is a half decent party heal but if both rolls fail you inflict death randomly on half the combatants.
Level 50- Attack Reels, Pay 400 gil Attack 3 times on a single target using expertise but it can crit. It exists i suppose.
Level 57- Magic Reels, Pay 500 gil and roll 3d10 to determine the spell's level(3-8), number of times cast(1-3x) and the spell used, There's also a chance of getting some special other effects. There's also no gambling rolls and the worst outcome is "Nothing happens" (a 9 on spells cast and no 10s).

Playable level: 8/43
I mean you are nominally playable with moogle reels but that will fall behind, by the 20s until you get to chocobo reels, at that point you'll stop being bad and do well throughout the rest of your progression. But that's the 40s which is way too late to be playable.
I'd call the class out for it's randomness, but it's the GAMBLER you signed up for that, and unlike the dancer you have a lot more control over what you are getting. Want positive status? You get that. Want damage? you get that. Of course the random gambling rolls on you know random effects, and gil costs on random effects, are incredibly stupid. As is you know TAKING TIL LEVEL 43 to do what the class wants to do reasonably reliably.

Edit: Having actually read the abomination that is skill system, you can't max out your gambling skill till lvl26, putting this class at playable level 43 as moogle reels will fail a reasonable amount of the time thus moogle reels and those will fall behind by the time you max out your skill.

Next time: Mediator, Mime, and Thief

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Night10194 posted:

I've never really understood what Returners is actually trying to do.

I can only speak of 3e as i was helping develop it for quite awhile.
"Fix 2e, make the classes actually balanced and distinct"
But it doesn't, I've rated multiple classes COMPLETELY unplayable already, white mage or chemist is mandatory.

Nessus posted:

Yeah as best as I can tell the appeal of Returners is

* It's free
* It's Final Fantasy, that thing you love!

Basically, and there's two better games that fulfill that. One of which that is actually fun!

Barudak posted:

There are lots of levels too. Lots and lots and lots of levels.

This is DEFINITELY a problem, most classes aren't even playable out of the gate because abilities have to be spread out over the levels.

Leraika posted:

Has anyone done FFd6 yet? It's about as well balanced as a stick of old dynamite on a tightrope but it's actually fun to play, which puts it head and shoulders above every other FF tabletop game.

No, and all of that is true, would people like me to do that next instead of BESM 3e?

-------------

Also there is way too much loving math, you would think accuracy would be something sane like 100%-Evade% for normal attacks, then status attacks could be 50+Attack Stat*2-Evade% but nope! Let's calculate level mods and poo poo! Also armor, armor as damage reduction is a bitch to calculate and heavily emphasizes large attacks (Enough armor to shave off 1/4th the damage of an auto attack means a 75% attack takes off half of that, and the 150% attack is only hit by 18%. This by the way was a constant problem they had that armor numbers were never right, but no one would take.)

Also the sheer loving number of save or dies, this is the reason Weaken is the best status type to inflict it doesn't have a save or die in the category so the GM has no reason to hand out I:Weaken, all weaken does is "Reduce their armor by 50%" or "Reduce damage by 25%" good useful poo poo your GM won't hate you for. But we will get to this when I talk about combat and the status groups.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Well let's finish off the insanity of the experts so we can get to a new type of insanity, mages!

FFRRPG Part 5: Expert jobs, part 2

Mediator
Remember how I said chemist was the last good expert job? Mediator is almost good, almost.

Level 1- Tame, This let's you pick a monster that died this turn and tame it(it's a mystify effect, status groups etc. doesn't work on notorious, boss and endboss mosnsters) it still gives full awards(surprisingly), and the monster gets to "live". Because you let it live you can summon it in battle to attack or out of battle to overcome any obstacle once, then it leaves. You can have one tamed monster, plus an additional 16, 31, 46, and 61.
Level 10- Entrust, This let's you swap initiatives with someone else, ANYONE ELSE. If they don't have a turn you lose yours, if their initiative is lower you get to go again at their initiative. If used on someone charging this charge breaks and your new initiative is when they WOULD have gone. Yep, this is quicken and mess with enemies all at once, this is amazing.
Level 19- Parley, Ejects an enemy at 25% or less hp, they are at 25% or less hp WHY? I use instant death on things with 100% hp.
Level 28- Advice, you give the target critical up who cares no one is auto attacking at this level.
Level 39- Intimidation, This increases their botch/auto miss range from 95+ to 75+ and removes their ability to quit. I'm noticing a pattern of incredibly worthless abilities.
Level 46- Manipulate, loving FINALLY SOMETHING WORTHWHILE, it inflicts charm, it has no charge time, no limits. loving everything is going to get I:Mystify from here out.
Level 55- Invite, This is like tame, ON CRACK. When used they immediately get up and fight on your side, and you get to keep your new pet monster buddy. Congrats you are the pokemon trainer, it's you. Now watch your gm head desk as every monster went from "Attack once for them maybe" to "Possible invitee".
Level 64- Charge!, what could beat invite as a capstone? Well it sure ain't loving this, You pick 4 allies each of whom has a chance based on their hp% to make an attack action...Flurry this is not, considering your party members can both not attack(40% chance to attack at 76-100% hp) and then miss. I'll stick with entrust.

Playable level- 10
This class has 4 abilities, Tame, Entrust, Manipulate and Invite. Ignore everything else. And it is an INCREDIBLY STRONG class with just those four abilities. I'm not going to call it good though, Tame and Invite are massive GM headaches as every monster has to be scrutinized by what you can do with them. And your main ability is "Skip my own turn to give an ally another" that's.....incredibly powerful but not exactly FUN as you don't really get to do anything. Also there's manipulate, which is well, it's a spammable 0 CT charm, nothing wrong with that.

Mime
Remember Entrust? Remember how good it was? That ability is better than your class.

Level 1- Mimic, you copy the last ability used not by your party, used, and make it with the same target. You still have to pay MP or CT costs.
Level 9- Mirror Mimic, You can now choose to target the user of the last ability used so you can ACTUALLY MIMIC ENEMY ATTACKS.
Right we are stopping here, it's pretty loving obvious how Mimic and Mirror Mimic should have worked, Mimic targets party actions, Mirror Mimic copies enemy actions and let's you pick targets. But nope, can't do that, has to be the exact last action and you have to use MP or CT killing any utility you would have over entrust. This needed to be said.
Level 17- Command Mimic, Pick an ally and take ONE ability from them, if it's spell casting you take one level of spells.
Level 25- Memory Mimic, you can pick any action used this round.
Level 33- Final Mimic, when dropped to 0 hp mimic the attack that killed you targeting your attacker.
Level 41- Command Mimic II, You get two abilities or spell levels from command mimic.
Level 49- Target Mimic, you can choose targets freely when using mimic.
Level 56- Counter Mimic, whenever you are attacked you have a 30% chance to respond with the attack that hit you.
Level 65- Job Mimic, COPY SOMEONES ENTIRE SKILL SET....up to lvl50, except spells of lvl7 or 8, blue magic of 100+mp, or summons of 150+mp. So yeah don't copy mages.

Playable level- 49....I suppose
gently caress mimes, mimes are awful, and I'm not kidding when I say "Entrust is better than your class" besides not needing all sorts of upgrades just to hit somone. MIMIC USES YOUR STATS NOT THEIRS, Yep that's right, you want to mimic a spell it's based on your mag. Mimes need ALL SIX ATTRIBUTES. What's more, what's worse, is their attribute caps? 9s across the board so their stats are bad for doing everything even at top levels AND their caps are lower. So Entrust further kicks your rear end by just using the target's stats.
And you still need to loving pay MP/CT killing any of the coolness mimes have in the FF games.
gently caress mimics, mimics are the EPITOME of "We only tested high level poo poo" the class doesn't come online until lvl50 and needs everyone else to have capped their attack stats to stat catching up, and is still very much a 5th wheel....and another class does it better at lvl10.

Thief
Oh the thief, what will we ever do with you. Nothing.

Level 1- Steal, you make an expertise roll and depending how much you succeed by you steal the item in the appropriate slot, a crit ups the slot category by one.
Shows over, class is done.....
What you want me to tell you the rest? FINNNNEEEE.
Level 8- Gil Snapper, you steal gil not with steal, but as a seperate action that eats your entire turn.
Level 15- Catch, You are targeted by an attack that uses the thrown ability or ammo and you can negate it and add it to your inventory. I mean...What? WHAT? How often are enemies going to be using throw or ammo? Seriously?
Level 22- Distract, For CT-8 give the target unaware, it's well....their turns are probably more valuable than yours.
Level 29- Mug, for CT-10 you get to do 100% attack damage while stealing, yaaaaay.
Level 36- Detect, You see someone's treasure table also when you steal from them you steal 2 items instead of one.
Level 43- Steal heart, Remember manipulate? Remember how that had no CT? This does, still pretty good for the thief.
Level 50- Countertheft, Any time you are hit by a physical melee attack use steal. Nothing to complain about beyond the hugggeeee complaint that goes at the end of this class.
Level 57- Robber's Evidence, Deal 100+Expertise*2% damage, so assuming you are mithra and have max AGI. 250+Lvl% damage.
Level 64- Footwork, +20 passive iniative.

Playable Level: 64
The thief is another huge example of only testing high levels, furthermore it is deeply enmeshed in the idea that the player's are getting gil and item drops as real resources that they worry about and could get screwed by not enough item drops. Rather than "gil is kind of irrelevant, sometimes monsters have rare poo poo the thief yoinks". This really kind of shows why at 43, 57 and 64 they get these huge combat abilities that let them actually do something as the game approaches the "End game" and players now only get artifact/unique gear and those shouldn't be missable the thief has to change.
Robber's evidence has one of the highest single target damage %s, and footwork guarantees the thief gets extreme initiative.

Of course how much player's WILL care about the economy, was never really tested, or the simple fact the GM will probably provide gil and weapons in chests outside their "Balanced" Xp/Gil ratios. Also god knows no one ever picked thief in playtests, why would you, money didn't matter in those.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Nessus posted:

See if I wanted to do Final Fantasy tabletop I'd probably use 4E D&D and refluff the races and classes. I'd probably set it in FFXIV.

Yes but you are sane.
Also D&D4e didn't exist at the time to be fair, and D&D was sort of soft banned from speaking of as "The game we don't talk about". Yeah that doesn't betray how worried they were about it, not at allllll.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 6: Mages

Mages, mages use mp and have spells, spells have levels and you get to pick multiple spells from each level. So basically you only ever cast your highest level spells.
Mages also have flat damage codes but that's fine as you can just ignore your lower level spells.
ALSO spells have prereqs, which you have to taken at previous levels, and you CAN end up not having enough spells to take at certain levels because of prereqs.

For mages I won't be reviewing individual abilities but more reviewing their spell lists and by extension the class.


Black Mage
Technically black caller is first, but we are skipping them for a bit.

So black mages just get black magic, a level 1-8 progression of spells.
All black that progression EVER does until the very end is give you a long string of single target debuffs/save or dies and elemental attacks, which you expand your selection of save or dies(with flat mp costs) and get higher damage code versions of your elemental attacks(with scaling mp costs), so 2 of your spells per level going to keeping up with the joneses for damage and the other two expand your ever increasing ways to kill a single creature.
And that's it, that's ALL this class does.
It doesn't get damage and status attacks besides poison/bio until lvl7 spells(lvl49), it doesn't get group status attacks until lvl8 spells(lvl57) or multi status spells until lvl7 spells(lvl49). It's just more and more ways to do the same two things.
And the other developers? They thought this class was COMPLETELY BUSTED. Why? Because to make a monster resistant to their damage you'd need like four resistances(or you could just....not do elemental damage.), and they could easily exploit elemental weaknesses(If you know what they are and the GM gives them).

Of course this ENTIRE CLASS could have been reducded to the following.
Elemental- Pay increasing mp at higher levels to do elemental damage.
Status- Get access to single target status effects as your level increases.
All Magic- Pay x2mp and an init penalty to change a ST effect to group targeting for elemental or status.

Throw in some abilities at the mid levels for Bio, Flare, Pain, Break and Ultima. Congrats you have basically the same loving class.
Fun fact there is a class that almost works this way!

Playable Level- 1
I mean they are nominally playable out of the gate getting 3 level 1 spells, did i mention mages get 3 spells at level 1? Because they do. But you know, the next two mages are better in every way.

White Mage
Welcome to possibly the second best class in the game after the Bard, but the White mage is mandatory.

White mages get white magic, full 1-8 progression. Duh.
White magic first off provides the heals and....this is your biggest weakness. Healing is mandatory and you will spend a LOT of time and MP doing it. You are all the horror stories of the cleric. But white magic isn't just for healing!
White mages get both the Wind and Holy line of spells! Wind at odd levels Holy at even levels, meaning YOUR DAMAGE EQUALS THE BLACKMAGE YOU JUST HAVE FEWER ELEMENTS. Now your GM can screw you by deciding the enemy is R: Holy, Wind. You also get a decent list of save or dies having silence, mini, confuse, berserk and charm. Also dispell(Remove barrier/enhance statuses) is on the white mage and NOT the black mage for some reason.
Of course we come back to what we expect from the white mage, a bevvy of support effects are also at your disposal, nowhere near the Bard but you have them, and that's a thing the Black Mage can't say you also get them earlier than the Bard but they aren't group targeting mostly. Notably Null Element(Grant the party immunity to one element) is group targeting and lvl3, so you can shut down any encounter involving elements trivially.

Basically the white mage is a strict upgrade over the Black Mage in every possible way.

Playable level- 1, and i totally mean it.

Time Mage
Welcome to the other possibly the second best class in the game after the Bard, the time mage is possibly not mandatory.

Time mages get time magic, level 1-8. Yada, yada.
We start with damage, let's get this out of the way. Time mages have two damage streams like the White mage, But they have the best set for a single reason it's all non-elemental. The GM can't screw you, you aren't trying to exploit elements. You are legitimately getting two types of attack spells. The Ray burst line is just Non-elemental damage at odd levels, at lvl3 it becomes group targeting so you have non-elemental group damage. The comet line has random targeting armor ignoring multi-hit attacks. So legit two distinct ways to do damage not just different elements your GM has to play too.
Of course you also get a bevvy of utility skills(such as teleport,ie auto escape) as well as eject, % based damage(way earlier than anyone else), and of course every single time based status. HOWEVER, DON'T TAKE STOP. You see if you take Stop the GM basically has to slap I:Time on every boss to prevent you from Stopping them, but if you don't and something has I:Time then the GM is clearly loving with you.
I also wish to call out that while obvious the Time mage gets haste and slow, and at the lowest levels of any class. Initiative is super important in this system, and haste means you can let the fighter really wail away with his moves or possibly even get extreme initiative.

Playable Level- 1, it's a mage, it's going to be 1.

Red Mage
The Red mage is certainly interesting.....

Red mages get red magic a mix of all the greatest hits of white, black and time magic, level 1-6.

Red mages have noticeably lower max magic(12 Mag/10 Spr) stats than the other mages but make up for it in variety and having shields. The only thing they meaningfully miss out on is the time mage attack spells.
However red mages spell progression is slower than the others and again caps at level 6, At mid levels 35-49ish they will start to fall behind until they get the ability that cements them as incredible for the rest of the caimpaign.

Level 50-Dual Cast, for -6 CT you can cast two spells as one action.

There it is boys and girls, the reason you suffered through mid levels as a red mage, you cannot BELIEVE the utility this gives you, I mean you could if you played the chemist. Yes, yes you can Flare*2 for a good impression of a ST ultima for far less MP, More importantly cast Mass Protect+Mass Haste on turn one, cast Flare while steal healing that near death ally. The Possibilities are........very large but still limited to your spell selection, which you should choose carefully in consideration of the eventual unlocking of this ability.

Playable Level- 1, though they dip noticeably in power as they fall behind in spell levels, they don't stop having options and things to do. Just rely more on utility than nuking.

Sage
Right so sages......

Sages get red magic, level 1-8
They also get more spells per spell level than other mages, So bluntly, out of the gate Sages are just better. However Sages have lower magic stats than red mages(10 Mag/10 Spr), the same pathetic 5Vit of the other mages, and remember how I said "Red Magic doesn't lose out on anything at 1-6" that isn't true of 7-8 when spells start getting interesting so sages are like more extreme red mages who when they start falling off NEVER GET BACK UP.

Playable Level- 1, they are still mages

Next time: Summoners and black/white callers

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 7: Mages part deuce, The Summoning

So part 2 is on summoners and callers.
I'm going to start with callers.

Black and White Callers
Both callers get the same two basic things.

They get either Black or White magic with the progression of the red mage. Hint, white caller's are better.
And they get to Invoke or Call Summons, this is your standard one shot and done stuff. Which isn't bad at all, calling is mp hefty at low levels(Ramuh will run you 21mp and he's a starter!) that however can be ignored as you can just use your black or white magic, at mid and high levels however you get access to a huge variety of powerful effects which many of them are interesting or even completely unique effects not seen anywhere else. The only big downside is the GM controls what summons you get, but almost all summons are pretty good once you get past the starters so as long as you accumulate a reasonably sized collection you should be good.
Callers are great alternative to other mages with greater variety of effects, though their skill advancement is plot based.

Also at lvl30 Callers can pay an Ct-8 and +25% mp to give an invocation +25% damage or healing which is some nice flexibility.

Playable level- 1 as a black/whitemage, 20ish for feeling like a caller(just for mp even if your gm frontloads summons).

Summoners
You'd think the dedicated summoner would be better......

So summoners work on Yuna rules replacing the caster(not the party). Summoning takes an action and lasts until the summon hits 0hp, or you dismiss them. The summon uses your stats for damage, has a multiplier of your hp for it's own pool, and uses your mp pool for abilities.
Beyond the action tax to summoning there is one other glaring weakness to summoners.
Unlike invoking which always uses MAG for damage DIFFERENT SUMMONS USE DIFFERENT STATS. Like the Mime you need all 6 stats.

What's more, SUMMONERS CAN'T INVOKE. You can't even just say "You know what, I need status healing, i call unicorn." Nope, gotta summon him first.
At level 33 you will get for -15CT grand summon which let's you use the grand summon ability while the summon is on the field, this is basically a souped up version of it's invoke effect.

So you would think the dedicated summoner would be at least better at using summons, but nope the simple lack of invoking meaning they can't use the general signature abilities of summons until level 33 and no quick invocations makes them WORSE.
Oh except Cerebus, he's busted on summoners, so busted no GM will EVER let you have him. (183 MP for Mass Haste+Mass Quicken)

Playable Level-Never

Also if you have a summoner AND a caller in your party, A summoner is supposed to only get 6 summons ever. Callers meanwhile should have about twice as many, try working THAT out. Actually having twice as many summons might make the summoner almost not total poo poo if just from the increased probability to get enough mag based summons to have variety.

Edit: Also Summons are in an appendix in the actual PDF, NOT the magic rules on the site.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 8: Adepts Part 1

Adepts are the fighter/mages, the classes that use MP but not magic.
Alright that's a very clear, very understandable distinction. Let's immediately throw it out the window.

Blue Mage
It's right in the name, they have a magic list. Why is summoner not in the adept list and blue mage not in the mage list, gently caress if I know.

Blue magic is....random as hell, normally i praise variety of effects but blue magic is just RANDOM. You also need to learn it by enemies using it. Now this is "From the GM" all cavets of caller apply, except monsters have to use it and we will describe the learning process in a bit, but the big one is monster's have to use it. Not the GM gives you a plot hook and a boss or quest for your new spell, he has to design a monster with **that** particular spell, then they have to use it, then you have to get hit with it.
I don't trust blue mages in normal FFs, in those you have guides.

Azure Lore, you get hit with a blue magic spell and it doesn't kill you, you get it. Pretty staight forward for the damaging spells.
Assimilation, You have a CoS% chance(that's what it says, it doesn't specify AT ALL) to learn a blue magic spell you SEE cast as long as you aren't affected by a long host of statuses, including blind.

Playable Level- By the GM's good graces and good luck
Yeah Blue mages aren't just unplayable, they are unrateable your class is a giant pile of GM fiat and luck.

Dark Knight
Do you want to be incredibly broken at high levels by abusing MP on weapon damage abilities? Than do I have the class for you!

Level 1- Darkside, Pay 25% of your max hp for 200% damage. Wait isn't this supposed to hit all. Eggghhh, It exists, I wouldn't consider it worth the price of admission but it is a good sometimes food.
Level 8- Black Sky, 19 Mp for 75% Weapon Damage as Shadow Damage to a group and a chance to inflict blind. Remember how loving great cherry blossom was? Well that's better at 8, but this gets better as the cost gets better and better and better.
Level 15- Night Sword, 17 Mp for 100% Weapon damage and hp drain. gently caress YES, HELL loving YES.
Level 22- Corruption, 40mp for a chance to inflict zombie, zombie reverses healing, despite only getting 10 abilities they never all are winners even dragoons.
Level 29- Duskblade, 12 Mp for 100 % Weapon damage to MP AND MP DRAIN. YOU ARE THE INFINITE ENGINE, IT'S YOU!
Level 36- Beastflare, 65 Mp to do group fire damage, this should be a huge part of your toolkit being your first group option, not doing shadow damage......17*Mag damage, instantly rendering it pointless.
Level 43- Catastrophe, 70mp Removes all barrier and enhance status effects from all enemies, when this is good, it's VERY good.
Level 50- Nightmare, 90mp, 100% weapon damage as shadow damage and a 30% chance to inflict....Curse, Mini, Sleep, Poison. Yeah 4 statuses. This is cheaper than the black mage spell pain, has more statuses, and does damage.
Level 57- Demon Slice, 125mp, Halves the targets hp and has a chance to inflict sap. Well this is time magey, since % damage is ignored by bosses you can forget about this being relevant, and it costs more mp than the time mage equivalents.
Level 64- Soul Eater, Attempts to kill every enemy those that survive take 150% weapon damage as shadow damage, 175mp. Well we sure took our sweet time breaking the 100% damage barrier and get an AoE besides black sky but a hell of a capstone.

Playable Level- 15
The biggest problem with the dark knight is basically every other ability is a stinker, but your good abilities are SO GOOD, like REALLY GOOD. and those costs don't scale. Black sky is the same 19 MP at level 64 at level 8. Your other big problem is you won't be doing a lot of damage outside using dark side, but who cares, your abilities are still amazing.

Geomancer
What the, why are you an adept and not an expert, you don't use mp, YOU EVEN HAVE AN EXPERTISE SCORE.

Welcome to dancer 2.0, you randomly roll which ability you get based on the terrain and your level. BASED ON THE TERRAIN.
I sure want to do fire damage in a volcano! or ice damage in the tundra!
HOWEVER....This was actually thought of! And you get geotrance, at first level you get to pick one terrain type, every 8 levels after you can pick another you have been too. You can use any terrain you mastered this way....by making a survival roll, yay.

Magic Knight
Remember how I said there was a class that worked like I said black mages should work? Meet the magic knight.

Spellblade- At first level you get 1 element and 1 status, you can add these on to your NORMAL ATTACK for the MP cost(so weapons aren't stat sticks.), they.....think the elemental adding is great to be fair it's okish later as you can drop literally every element by end game so it's literally does it have a weakness? if yes pay 5mp for x2 damage. More importantly you can drop a giant gently caress rear end list of statuses ontop of 100% weapon damage....for the same MP cost as the black mage.
Starting at 22 you get effect strikes these let you do more interesting stuff like halve hp.
Starting at 50 you get ultimate spell blades, this let's you actually do more than 100% damage and target groups! and that's what you will use it for, because poo poo like black hole strike is awful, sure instant death and if that fails drop to 1hp sounds great but bosses are immune.

In addition Magic knights get a blevvy of SOS abilities.
Level 1- SOS-Shell, when at 25% or lower hp you have shell up(50% less magic damage)
Level 15- SOS-Protect, when at 25% or lower hp you have protect up(50% less physical damage)
Level 40- SOS-Haste, when at 25% or lower hp you have haste(x2 iniative)
All your SOS abilities stack.

Playable Level 8- At this point you will have 2 elements but more importantly 2 statuses to inflict, and probably a weapon that naturally does cool stuff.

Ninja
Dear god, this class, this class is such a chop shop. Let's just get into it before the analysis.

Level 1- Throw, you can throw a weapon to destroy it for x2 damage(this always uses agi).
Level 1- Dual Wield, you can equip two weapons, and attack with each.
Level 8- Utsumi, Gain agility up, this ain't no scream that's for sure.
Level 15- Katon, 28mp, 12*Mag fire damage and a chance to inflict confuse.
Level 22- Image, Get a crappy version of blur that loses 5 of the evade every time you are hit.
Level 29- Suiton, I'm just skipping the mp costs now, 16 * Mag water damage and a chance to silence.
Level 36- Shadow Stich, Inflicts disable and immobilize, this is WAYYYYY too late for this.
Level 43- Raiton, Costs mp, 20 * Mag lighting damage and a chance to inflict blind.
Level 50- Sunken State, When you take damage a 30% chance to gain vanish(Can't be targeted by single target effects from enemies), yeah this is great.
Level 57- Doton, 24 * Mag earth damage and a chance to inflict slow.
Level 64- Elan, Add CT-10 to change Katon, Suiton, Raiton, or Doton to group targeting.

Playable Level- Never
Once again we come across a class that is trying to do two things. One which can work and one which can't. The "Can work" Is the Dual wield, utsumi, image, shadow switch ninja who uses mp costing abilities to buff and support his single awesome attack ability(ie dual wield) if the ninja was this for his full progression he'd be fine.
The can't work is Katon, Suiton, Raiton, and Doton which well, it's sort of what I'd want for the black mage except stupid in every way. To begin with, the abilities don't scale if you want to do fire damage or inflict confuse you only do 12*Mag damage, also elan is level 64 which blows.
Also you'd need two stats(Agi and Mag) to do both, also you only have a 12 AGI and 10 Mag.

Pass on the Ninja.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Ratoslov posted:

For the Ninja, maybe they should steal from how Bravely Second handled weapon throwing abilities. When you Throw, the weapon is gone until the end of the combat or when you use the (higher level) ability Retrieve Weapon, which for a little MP returns all thrown weapons.

That would require them to have thought of that rather than copying how final fantasy worked at the time.

OvermanXAN posted:

As someone who regularly use Blue Magic in Final Fantasy, in the actual games it's fantastic and actually one of the strongest tools available, generally. (even in the ones where it's somewhat weaker, there's generally enough good options to use it, X being the exception because of how spectacularly badly it's handled there). The problem is that in actual Final Fantasy games, *the developers program all of the spells in in advance*. You know that if they're offering you a Blue Mage, all the spells WILL be available and a means of getting them all onto your character will be provided. That's not something you can do in a multiplayer tabletop environment. It requires too many things to line up between players and GM.

Oh I know, I just always considered it more trouble than it's worth.
Everything said after of course remains true, and you know the unstated chance to learn by seeing rather than getting hit which you need for all those useful support skills or just single target abilities never aimed at you.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 9: Adepts 2

Whoops guess i should have saved the ninja, there are only two jobs left.


Paladin
While the dark knight is a clear upgrade over the blackmage, the paladin is far from an upgrade to the whitemage.

Level 1- Cover, choose an ally when they take damage you take it instead. You can end this or change who is under cover without using your action, and cover won't trigger if you are at 25% or lower life.
Level 1- Sentinel, If an ally at 25% or lower life and you aren't as a reaction ability you take the damage for them. So yeah even without cover you get to tank.
Level 8- Hallowed Bolt, Deals 75% weapon damage lighting damage to all enemies, with a chance to silence. A clear parallel to the dark knight's level 8 with one huge upside. It's lighting damage and that means it gives you a real alternative to holy.
Level 15- Healing Wind, For 34 Mp heals 9 * Mag hp to everyone, sadly it uses mag and you use strengh...well paladins CAN use magic weapons(staves) but they are inferior to swords. If you do use a staff though this falls aside for being a flat amount....EXCEPT that you can spam it out of combat. It's pretty efficient at mp to healing.
Level 22- Cleansing Strike, 125% weapon holy damage and a chance to inflict condemn. It'll do.
Level 29- Astra, This negates the next instance of one or more negative statuses being inflicted on EACH PARTY MEMBER.
Level 36- Seal evil, a flat 60% chance to inflict stone to undead. Not worth it.
Level 43- Holy Circle, Grants the party protect and increases all holy damage they deal by 25% seeing as you only DO holy damage this is great protectga that gives you +25% damage at around the same level/mp cost. You will be spamming the hell out of this until you get great gospel.
Level 50- Judgement Blade, Inflicting 125% weapon holy damage to all enemies with a chance to inflict stop on all of them. IT BEGINS.
Level 57- Divine Ruination, Inflicting 150% weapon holy damage to all enemies with a chance to inflict confuse on all of them.
Level 64- Great Gospel, For the low LOW price of 200mp this heals 17 * MAG hp to all party members and grants wall negating ALL DAMAGE RECEIVED FROM ATTACKS&ABILITIES for the rest of the turn and the next three turns. This is THE single best ability in the game besides grand summon Cerebus "Give everyone haste and an extra turn", but you don't have to be a summoner who was allowed anywhere near Cerberus to get it.

Playable Level- 22
Whitemages, Paladins are NOT. Dark knights, Paladins are NOT. What paladins are, are an early game tank that slowly becomes THE BEST ENDGAME CLASS IN THE GAME. Judgement blade is loving ridiculous, Group Damage with a chance to stop? Sign me up. Great Gospel is the second best ability in the game, with Astra shoring up the only whole in your perfect defense game.
However it's getting there, I put their playable level at 22 for a reason, and that might be generous a lvl22 knight is a lot more complete than a lvl22 paladin.

Rune Knight
Oh god rune knights, let's get into this poo poo. At least Paladins had a payoff.

Level 1- Runic, by giving up your action you absorb the next spell or monster ability that consumes mp ignoring it's effect into mp healing for you, runic ends at the start of your next turn. Also RUNIC CAN ABSORB YOUR FRIENDS SPELLS! This is a great example of why they shouldn't have been slavishly devoted to how things worked in a game.
Level 36- Return Magic, This is much better whenever you are hit by a spell(or monster ability with mp cost) you have a Level/2+Spr*2 chance activating this ability, In which case choose one regain mp equal to it's cost or have the effect ALSO hit whoever cast it. I mean the choice is obvious. Smack their face.
Level 64- Quadra MAgic, See Return magic? Pay the MP costx3, DO IT FOUR TIMES!

Level 1- Fury Brand, Do 100% weapon damage with a chance to inflict berserk.
Level 15- Stardust Ray, Do 75% weapon damage to all enemies with a chance to inflict spirit break.
Level 22- Shellburst Stab, Deal damage equal to target's MP for the low LOW cost of 35mp, it can't break the damage cap but if you meet a boss with MP? Enjoy doing the damage cap repeatably for 999 damage.
Level 29- Blaster Punch, Deal 100% weapon damage to all enemies with a chance to inflict magic break.
Level 43- Viper Bite, Deal 125% weapon poison damage to an enemy with a chance to inflict venom.
Level 50- Hellcry Punch, Deal 150% weapon damage to an enemy with a chance to inflict power break and silence.
Level 57- Icewolf Bite, Deal 150% weapon damage to hp and 200% weapon damage to mp. GOD drat IT RUNE KNIGHT you almost got all this way without doing mp damage.

Playable Level-1
I mean rune knights only do one thing and that's murder mages, but with runic and fury brand they are doing it just fine from level 1. How good a rune knight is plays heavily into how many MAGES ie enemies that use MP the GM throws at you. If they are common the rune knight will do great, if the gm just has mag based enemies doing magic damage but not using mp because why track that poo poo for enemies? The rune knight will cry.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Barudak posted:

Great Gospel is completely broken and on the wrong class. A twofer

I wouldn't say the wrong class at all(Except in the sense no class should have party targeting Wall), paladins are pretty big on negating damage and protection while dishing out damage (Astra, Cover/Sentiniel, Holy Circle). I'd say healing wind is "On the wrong class" as it's a heal(So is Great Gospel but who gives a poo poo?).
But broken, God yes, so very, VERY broken.

Leaving your GM to just save or dies or spamming debarrier is absurd.

But Bluntly, we never asked "What is this class doing?" I can **say** that the paladin is a warrior who prevents damage while dealing damage, but that's the hindsight of 15 or so YEARS. Back then we didn't think to make sure each class had a clear focus, that's why so many are just random jumbles of abilities. Why some classes can have everything but 4 ripped out and lose nothing and other classes repeat the same ability 5 times without thinking.

What were we trying to do with the fencer? Get each category to 8 classes, which is probably why the geomancer and blue mages are adepts.
Why doesn't the Summoner have invoking? Because Yuna didn't and that's the summoning method used.
Why is the Ninja so awful? Because it's jamming all the ninjas together, rather than saying "The ninja uses mp support skills to supplement dual wield" they just jammed them all together. All that elemental damage comes from one game, where the elemental damage was A)Different than the black mage, and B) All at equivalent to rank aga spells as well.
Why is the Mystic knight designed to sort of function well and the rune knight a semi-coherent cobbling together of things towards a clear goal? Dear god I have no clue.

It is as often stated they just jammed things together because that's how it worked in the game.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Oct 2, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

OvermanXAN posted:

Because Mystic Knight functioned really well in FF5 and Celes' Runic command in 6 was questionably useful there outside of the one boss fight explicitly designed to show it off?

Yeah but mystic knight's DON'T function like FF5, they get an element or status and apply it to their weapon for one attack. It's more Steiner w/ ViVi than the FF5 mystic knight.
But still basically those two classes are their own things.

Everything the black mage wanted to do? The mystic knight just does BETTER.
Exploit weaknesses? Mystic knight has more elements.
Deal statuses? Mystic knight also does weapon damage if they fail.

NGDBSS posted:

Basically. I just checked to be sure that I do in fact have the same PDF, and yes it is the same because my playgroup foolishly decided to try this mess shortly before I joined up. (It failed as expected.) The game thinks you'll have about 4 to 5 at-level encounters before leveling...and thinks you'll get through a level per session. Which is some Kevin Siembieda "I have no clue how my own game works" bullshit, because...
  • Turns involve rolling a bunch of dice even if you are one-shotting things.
  • I don't know how easy it is to one-shot enemies with damage rather than insta-kill status effects, so if you aren't one-shotting things then combats will take a while. Which turns the game in play into a shittier version of Descent or some other tactical minis game.
  • The game expects the GM to craft all monsters from scratch using some complicated logic on how much this or that affects its total XP/Gil payouts. So there's no provision for handwaving, no provision for pulling an encounter out of your butt on less than five minutes' notice, no provision for quick-and-dirty Steal/Mug values from four slots per monster (though those slots can be duplicates or empty), and a strong incentive to make encounters "memorable" (read: longer).
  • Speaking of which, there are a few effects that give out extra loot and/or Gil. They're not overpowered in the least because most of them are on the Thief (which trades combat capability to get them), and the last is an advantage that caps at +20% Gil for anyone who has it. The game has a sidebar that smugly suggests worsening treasure tables if these get out of hand. And while this almost certainly won't happen, the temptation is still there.*
  • XP/Gil payouts are divided evenly among the PCs. This probably makes sense from the standpoint of a consistent input-to-output ratio but which also makes for several more steps in play like actually dividing those totals and forcing the players to act as beancounters for every point of XP and Gil. Edit: And if someone isn't alive and present at the end of combat, which is totally possible because the FF games had effects like instant death/Stone/Encircle or other ejection abilities, they don't get a share of XP.
  • If the PCs bypass encounters they only get half XP, which is then further capped at 1/5 the amount they need to level.
  • Dealing with monsters is the principal way you're expected to get XP. Traps exist but have little guidance on using them well, and social encounters only give out 1/5 or even 1/10 the amount you need to level.
*Contrast this with the 4th Edition rules for the Rogue, which can choose one of three loot-boosting effects in addition to other things at chargen. That game has the forethought to explicitly tell GMs to not punish their players just because one of them took a class for getting more loot. Overall we could contrast FF3E with FF4E all day here because the latter is a much less brain-dead work, but for now we're just sticking to this example.

I skipped over the exact exp charts, because well 100 levels of that poo poo.
Everything you said is true, and things i was going to talk about in combat and monsters and even other things that make it all stupider.

To answer your question, one shotting enemies after the early levels is drat near impossible. Death itself doesn't show up til the 40s, not Save or Die but "Skip this poo poo".

Despite all this, I still have a weird nostalgia for this terrible dumpster fire I helped create. Every chapter i review this game makes me want to put it back together in a way that doesn't suck more. The fact I could probably do that by myself in like, a week, says a lot.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG, Part10: Chapter 5 Skills
No, no, oh god why. WHY.
You mean I actually have to COVER SKILLS?

Alright, I'm going to read the rules so first off. Let's cover starting skill points.
Warriors get 240, Experts get 260, Mages get 280, Adepts get whichever of those they basically should be in anyways.
I what? Why do mages get the most, why do warriors get the least? WHY?

Secondly, skill defaults your default in a skill is 10+Stat*3, EVERY SINGLE SKILL uses Agility or Magic for it's default, except social skills those use spirit, and climbing it uses Strength. I...What? What? WHAT?! So yeah gently caress warriors.
If you have a mag of 12(like say a taru taru mage) that gives you a default of 46, for a good chunk of the skills in the game. Remember this as we go forward.

Skills are bought on a 1 to 1 ratio even the ones with infinite under skills like lore, if you have a skill aptitude from your class you spend 1 point for +2. Skills must be within 20 to 50 to start....4 points higher than our Taru Taru mage defaults to on half the skills, and lower than what he defaults to on social skills.

Advancing skills, oh you get 10 skill points per level and can raise a skill by.....TWO POINTS PER LEVEL? SO IT TAKES AN ADEPT TILL TWENTY SIX TO HIT 50%+Level+stat*2% expertise? (Sorry gambler your playable level just hit 43 with chocobo slots if you can't guarantee moogle slots always work.) You also get 6 points that can only be spent on infinite under skills, hope you bought 3 of those, i mean unless you went for lore master mage with your skill aptitude, then you needed SIX, which the skills you trained will probably be worse than your defaults for 30+levels.

To learn new skills you can either crit when defaulting which gives you a rating of 20. Your mage critted that streetwise check, he did so good he lost 30 points from it! Now realize you have a 1 in 10 chance of doing this every time you default.
Or you can spend time and gil to learn a skill, which gives you a skill ranking of 20 OR your default whichever is higher. Now why didn't it work like that for crit learning? I have no idea.

This system was so obviously just hacked on because they needed a skill system like 3e had, rather than thinking "What works for final fantasy". It's awful, the list is huge, it's poorly conceived, and it made the gambler worse by me mentioning it. gently caress skills, i'm out.

gently caress skills, just, gently caress skills.
I'm out.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Oct 3, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Knowing how the system works, i'll give an example of how it ends up working with the right choices.

I vote for The great, and powerful trixie a red mage who who has finesse for days, and will make sure you know she is better because of it

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 11: Equipment

So equipment comes in two flavors (Equipment) the permanent stuff, and consumables(the uhhhh one shot stuff), there is also crafting materials which thankfully just have a level.
Each of these have a rank from 1-8 then Artifact(9) and Legendary(10), with the last 2 being GM only, and legendary being unique.

Now unlike what sanity would dictate, prices aren't determined by just checking rank to equipment/consumable/material, each has their own price.
Also items have an availability value, rather than the GM allowing you to buy on level stuff you have to hope on level items are for sale....or have the GM hand out treasure. My suggestion for your fighter? Save your cash until you can buy a level 8 weapon, roflstomp the game until 40.

Weapons use Str, Agi or Mag(Well Staves use Mag, Rods use Str, one more reason to go white/time mage), with each weapon category having a die type(yes there is random damage after all that math and flat DR), and weapons of a die type all share the same progression with Str weapons having the best. So far so good, besides you know random damage.
So let's talk about some big problems with equipment design.
First off, as we talked about most characters use weapons as stat sticks, while fighters care about their weapon's base damage they don't care if it does fire damage or a 30% chance to inflict death, most weapons even mage weapons are invested in these as the thing. This is especially notable on artifact/legendary weapons, as those can make or break your endgame. For instance say you use swords. The Ultima weapon adds 1/5th your current hp to your attack actions, the Caladbolg gives auto-power-up and auto-magic-up, A boost to auto-attacks or 25% boost to damage, one of these is a clear edge for your ultimate final sword.

Armor you'd think is a little better right?
Well assuming your armor is up to date, on par armor will reduce auto attack damage by 1/4th to 1/3rd, getting worse and worse for stronger attacks. Armor also has more variety of special abilities. So for armor you can basically ignore the base stats entirely just for stats, and you don't have any silly attack boosts.
Oh armor is also divided into.
Armor
Armwear
Headwear
Possibly a shield
And an accessory slot.

Consumables includes a long list of standard healing items(which if you have a Whitemage and not a chemist ALWAYS BUY MP HEALING ITEMS they are much cheaper per hp), and battle items(which do mag based damage and you will never use.).

Yeah, this game is......not well designed.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Oct 5, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG 3e Part 12: Combat part 1, oh boy here we go

So we begin, this will cover the general combat rules.
Combat works like your standard FF game, enemies and allies line up in rows and take turns and beat each other up, after a million games that bitch about positioning of 5ft. and end up kind of stale because of it that is honestly kind of refreshing. There's nominally a tactical engine in here from character options, heh, nominally.

There's some rules about using movement which we cheerfully ignored during playtesting, if you were going to play this please do so, they weren't playtested.

Good, Good.

So combat begins, first everyone gets to roll for initiative.
1d10+Speed stat.
You will be repeating this each round, now normally I would complain but considering the whole charge time system this actually becomes tactically interesting, sort of. However....Not every class uses that and they should it is a good system. So basically, that is a problem.
If two people have the same initiative(Including while charging) then the highest speed goes first, if they are still tied you roll a die(ew).

There's a giant list of action types for abilities.
The actions everyone can take, Attack, Defend, Item, and Escape. (And full move if you are using positioning for some reason).

Then we get to resolving actions.
If you use an attack ability you do your % damage, add the dice, modify THOSE by a % and subtract their armor....
If you use a spell calculate your magic to-hit by taking your M.ACC% and subtracting their M.EVA%(Let me calculate it for you, you only miss on a crit miss of 96+), then do your damage+dice, and subtract M.Armor.
If you use a normal attack(are you a fighter or magic knight? No? Then never use those!) it works like a spell except you can actually miss, and a 1-10 being a crit.

The problems are immediately FREAKING OBVIOUS.
Why are you calculating hit chances? Why not rolling 1d100 and trying to get above their evade? With a base of 91+ getting a crit and crit enhancers lowering that number.
Then why are you ROLLING DAMAGE AT ALL? The amount of damage you do is astronomical compared to the roll. A Tier 1 weapon is Stat*2+1 die, this is about the only time the die matters, how about just stat*3 the numbers are near identical, it also completely messes with % damage attacks as you can't precalculate the dice.
Also why have ARM at all? Even for auto attacks arm is so constrained it doesn't make meaningful dints in the damage. While I can get behind the idea of a stat that exists to protect from plink attacks but not big hitters, it doesn't do that, if arm subtracted from all damage and was notably higher it would at least serve a role in the system. It doesn't however.

At the end of each round is the status phase, I've sort of alluded to this with the way wall works. But each status has a number which is how many rounds it lasts, normally this is 4, at the end of each status phase things like regen, sap, and poison trigger and every status effect counts down. So by having high enough initiative you sort of get an extra round of effect, again there's a lot of half formed mechanics around manipulating initiative but no way to DO it.

Next time: That's a lot of status effects, too many are save or dies but enough aren't you can actually inflict some

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Oct 6, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 13: Combat part 2, that is a lot of ways to say die

Welcome to the status portion of combat, statuses are grouped into types, for the most part immunities and cure items target those groups rather than individual statuses.
There's a lot more stuff with I: Fatal than I: Death.

Fatal Statuses
Death: The target hits 0hp, they are done.
Condemned: When the timer runs out it inflicts death.
Eject: The target is removed from battle, enemies give no xp/gp/items.
Frozen: The target can't act and if they take physical damage they shatter and die.
Heat: If the target takes any actions they explode and die.
Gravity: Oh how the mighty have fallen, This used to not fall under fatal and bosses get I:Fatal free. Which means any % damage effect doesn't work on them, so your time mage can't chuck demi for 999 damage to bosses.
Near-Fatal: Instant 1hp.
Mystify
Berserk: The target can only use attack actions but deals +50% damage.
Charm: Whoever charmed the target control's their actions. Considering the difference in PC and monster hp, a charmed PC can wipe the party.
Confuse: Roll on a table to see how you will act!
Unaware: Basically surprised, in fact this is the status that you get from being surprised.
Toxin
Poison: Lose 10% of current hp each turn. Doesn't expire.
Venom: Lose 10% of max hp&mp each turn. Doesn't expire.
Seal
Blind: Reduce your Accuracy by 75% with physical attacks. (Yes, after calculating, have fun.)
Curse: You can't use slow actions.
Petrify: When the timer runs out it inflicts stone.
Sleep: You can't act but any damage wakes you.
Stone: You can't act or take damage. Doesn't expire.
Time
Disable: You can't use Attack, Item, Defend or Escape. Laugh at this puny status if the GM hands it out.
Immobilize: Evade% 0, and no reactions.
Sap: At the end of round take damage equal to initiative*5.
Slow: Initiative is halved.
Stop: You can't act, all other statuses are on pause until the timer runs out.
Transform
Mini: Reduce Arm&M.Arm by 50%, reduce physical damage dealt to 1.
Toad: Reduce Arm&M.Arm by 50%, reduce attack actions to 1 damage, can only use the toad spell.
Zombie: Take damage from healing.
Weaken
Agility Down/Break: -25/50 Eva% and Acc%, -2/4 Init.
Spirit Down/Break: -25/50 M.Eva% and M.Acc%.
Lock: -20 Eva&M.Eva%
Armor Down/Break: -25/50% Armor.
Mental Down/Break: -25/50% M.Armor
Power Down/Break: -25/50% Physical damage.
Magic Down/Break: -25/50% Magical damage.
Meltdown: 0 Armor/M.Armor

Barrier
Element Spikes: Deal 2*Mag damage of the chosen element to attacks, uhhh it's cute when the black mage gets it?
Protect: Take half damage from physical attacks.
Shell: Take half damage from magical attacks.
Resist: I: Fatal, Mystify, Seal, Time, Transform, Weaken
Wall: Remember why paladins are broken cheese at lvl64? This status is why.
Shield: Take wall, add resist, remove the ability to be broken by debarrier&despell. You have shield. It's on a single white mage spell that applies it for the round applied and the following.
Strenghen
Accelerate: Raises speed for movement.....
Accuracy Up: Acc% becomes 255
Critical Up: +10% Crit Chance
Blink: +20 Eva%
Ruse: +40 Eva%
Agility Up: +25 Eva%&Acc%, +2 init
Spirit Up: +25 M.Eva%&M.Acc%
Armor Up: +25% Armor
Mental Up: +25% M.Armor
Power Up: +25% Physical Damage
Magic Up: +25% Magical Damage
Flight: Can only be hit by ranged attacks.
Float: I:Earth, also some stuff involving movement.
Aura: Halves all charge times.
Haste: Gives you extreme initiative, I mean doubles iniative
Mp Half: Halves mp costs.
Mp Quarter: Reduces mp costs by 25%.
Vanish: Enemies can't target you with single target effects, group attacks still work.


Right also, I forgot an essential rule about the initiative system. If your initiative is over 30 you get extreme initiative.
If you have extreme initiative you get two turns, once at your rolled initiative and once at your initiative -30, now this is really hard barring a faster class and race, or you know haste. I suggest haste. Haste is stupid, the entire time mage class is justified on the idea of not giving the white mage haste, no joke.
This is NOT continuing the trend of interesting initiative positioning this is just "Haste gives you two turns.", so i honestly consider it less a combat rule and more a property of haste and the Thief's footwork ability.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Oct 6, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Monathin posted:

Having fifty billion statuses makes them less interesting, that's my hot take on this.

Most of which are just variants on death, or otherwise overlap with eachother.
The worst are the down/break statuses which are just the same but different strengths.

quote:

Also Haste, as usual, is completely busted, which surprises absolutely no one.

It really is, double initiative is perfectly good on it's own in the system because of CT and the ability to get an extra turn on your statuses. But extreme initiative just makes haste busted.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 14: Some other stuff

Chapter 8: Magic
Because mage abilities should be seperate from their jobs.

Chapter 9: Adventuring
aka regaining hp&mp.
Interestingly there are more than just "Sleep at an inn."

A breather(15 minute rest) will restore 5% max hp&mp.
A break(1 hour rest) will restore 10% max hp&mp.
A fitful rest(3-4 hour rest with a meal) will restore 25% max hp&mp.
A travel rest(8 hours and some sleep) will restore 50% max hp&mp.
A full rest(8 hours and a decent sleep) will restore 75% and restore dead&stone.
An intensive rest(A full day) will restore all hp&mp.

That's....not bad actually, one of the few rules that treats the game as an rpg and not just a mechanics simulator, Breather's should be reasonably plentiful and can help and breaks aren't unreasonable being a pretty decent heal. The split between travel&full could go just being 10%/25%/50%/75%(+stone/dead)/100%, but the core rule is solid.

The heal skill's effect on resting is explained, it allows you to with some seriously random modifier's upgrade a rest type by one category. Which makes the heal skill actually somewhat relevant.

After healing we have towns, and besides shopping there's a price list of random services you can't buy if the gil economy matters. (I so loathe when the magic/adventuring economy and service economy don't use different currencies.)

Then you have rules about navigation(a paragraph), scavenging crafting materials(more than a paragraph), weather, and shelter.

Chapter 10: Gamemastering

A mostly blah blah blah chapter.....but.....

quote:

As prevalent as combat is in the Final Fantasy series, it’s a seriously time-consuming proposition on the tabletop. Running battles with the same frequency players of the e-games are used to leaves room for little else, meaning you’ll inevitably have to choose quality over quantity when planning your encounters.

Really?

quote:

The suggested XP and Gil awards given in this book are designed so that each character gains a Level after four or five encounters, or about one Level per session. This is a good rate of growth for a typical campaign—assuming one game session a week, the characters will go from Level 1 novices to Level 65+ champions in a little more than one year.

Four or five combat encounters to level. Because yeah this game has no guidelines or suggestion you ever should give exp for anything but stabbing.

and of course this gem.

quote:

Theft and Rewards

Some Advantages and Abilities, most notably the Thief’s Steal, allow characters to gain Items and Gil beyond those normally awarded to the party. This is compensated for by reducing the Job’s combat potential, or—in the case of Advantages like Gillionaire—equivalent Disadvantages. If you feel these extra sources of income are in danger of unbalancing the game, however, you can adjust monsters’ treasure tables to contain fewer valuable items.

gently caress thieves, literally "This class is weaker in combat to make up for breaking the economy, so give them less rewards."
WHAT THE CHRIST.

Next time: Monster creation, OH GOOOOODDIEEEE

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Oct 6, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 15: Monster creation, I mean Appendixes

These aren't on the site, you need to download the pdf for them.

First off we have summons which you know couldn't go in the magic chapter for some reason.
Second off we have the crafting rules including inventions and mix, crafting except for inventions uses generic crafting materials and mix uses standard combat items.

No, but we aren't here for that are we? No we are here to see just HOW BADLY they hosed up monster creation.

Let's start with the obvious, there are no guidelines, no predefined roles, just miles and miles and miles of modifiers.

Secondly how might you think it works? Maybe determine monster base stats as pure multipliers, assign some special abilities that increase with levels and weaknesses give some more to spend, maybe a mandatory elemental weakness even? NOPE NONE OF THAT poo poo.

Monster's get 35+Level STAT POINTS, like the kind PC's use.
But it gets better, after that you THEN get to assign things like hp, mp, armor etc. multipliers. You would think if you want a high hp monster you would give it high vit, high hp multiplier...which leads to high hp monster's being VERY high indeed. Which will see. Also speaking of armor multipliers while armor is stupid monster armor goes up with level your damage goes up every few levels this is actually pretty noticeable at 1-6 as your damage goes down and down by almost relevant amounts and their hp goes up by definitely relevant amounts.
And the most expensive thing of all to build? Attacks, and each one has to be paid for separately, in fact monsters don't even get a basic attack that itself has to be bought, and an attack doing 50% more damage is doing more than x3 hp or just causing instant death.
In fact, let's just build some monsters to show off! Because I am NOT going over EVERY SINGLE MONSTER ABILITY

However some highlights
* Multible forms that switch cost more exp than spawning a monster on death or having two monsters.
* Monster attacks can't have charge times.
* Can't Scan and Bad scan exist, just, WHY.
* You can't have a monster counter with an attack it doesn't have, no joke, it has to be able to spam the attack to be able to counter with.
* If the intent is to give 1gp per 3xp, why not just DO THAT instead of having separate XP/GP values on abilities?

First, let's build some standards. All customized monsters will be level 22. For the first 3 we will build monster's like you are "Supposed" to, and for the last one....Well I called them kill reapers for a reason, and they called me obsessed but they exist to show why the monster creation rules Make NO sense.

Our first monster's will be Mind flayers.
We immediately give them the following Stats.
Str: 1 Vit: 10 Agi: 1 Spd: 10 Mag: 15 Vit: 10
They have a base xp value of 40.
We give them the normal hp multiplier, x2.
They need mp so, x1 there. +15xp
They are "weak" to physicals so x.5. -5xp but "resistant" to magic so x2 +10xp.
Now for some attacks, we give them two blue magic spells Stare and Matra Magic +33xp...each
We also give them a normal attack with a d6 damage code(and despite doing physical damage, it uses mag, obviously.) +8xp
Our Mind Flayer now looks like this.
Hp: 968 Mp: 220 Spd: 10
Arm:16 M.Arm: 49 Eva%: 33 M.Eva%: 47 Acc: 103% M.Acc: 174%
Matra Magic: 36MP, Target: Single, 225+4d8 - M.Arm damage
Stare: 36MP, Target: Group, 135+2d8 - M.Arm damage with a M.Acc-50% chance to inflict confuse
Tentacle Slap: Target: Single, 75+3d6 - Arm damage
Level 22 Exp: 2,464 Gil: 1,408
Normally I would have to do items, but sod that.

Let's give those Mind flayers some protection.
Rune golems get the following Stats
Str: 24 Vit: 24 Agi: 1 Spd: 5 Mag: 1 Spr: 1
Rune golems clearly have plenty of hp, x4 for +18 xp
Rune golems are heavily armored x2 for both, +20xp
The first thing i wanted to do was give rune golems the ability to counter when mind flayers are attacked, but that isn't in the rules, and we are going by those.
Instead we give them the cover and sentiniel abilities from the paladin. +10xp each.
We also only give them a single attack a d10 damage attack(+30xp), with a 30% chance to inflict silence(+10xp)
However Golems ARE slow, let's give them the low evade&low m.evade abilities. -33xp each
Also golems are not alive and also mindless, we give them I:Fatal(25xp) and I:Mystify(18xp)
Our finished Rune golem looks like this
Hp: 2,112 Spd: 5
Arm: 56 M.Arm: 44 Eva%: 17% M.Eva%: 13 Acc%: 103%
Cover
Sentiniel
Rune Smash: Target: Single, 144+1d10 damage and a 30% chance to silence
I: Fatal, Mystify
Exp: 2,596 Gp: 858

Those two went swimmingly, let's build a boss.

Bosses base exp is 225, they get 4x hp/mp and I:fatal as well as some boss only abilities, like field effects(Wait why are those monster and not encounter tied?)
After the Mind Flayers and Rune golems there is only one choice of Boss.
A DRAGON OBVIOUSLY! No, the Elder Brain!
Let's make some stats! For base stat's the mind flayer's works fine. 15 Mag, 10 Vit/Spd/Spr
The Elder brain is much tougher than previous enemies, at x6 hp for +40 xp
The Elder brain also has a x2 mp multiplier, for +35 xp
Like the lesser mind flayer's the elder brain is weak to physicals -5exp, but is heavily armored against magic getting x4 m.arm +19exp
It's mind is too powerful to overcome it gains I:Mystify.
For attacks it keeps the Stare and Matra magic attacks of it's lesser cousins.
We also create a single target charm effect called enthrall, because eh it's cheaper and less MP than the spell. 48xp
Finally we give it a normal attack using a d6 called mind spike, to round out it's attacks.
We also give it X-Action, because it's a boss and needs to murder an entire party. +80xp
And seeing as it LITERALLY can't move, we apply low evasion. (because auto-immobilize isn't an option.)
Elder Brain
Hp: 5,280 Mp: 1,760 Spd: 10
Arm: 16 M.Arm: 93 Eva%: 16 M.Eva%: 47 M.Acc%: 174
Matra Magic: 36MP, Target: Single, 225+4d8 - M.Arm damage
Stare: 36MP, Target: Group, 135+2d8 - M.Arm damage with a M.Acc-50% chance to inflict confuse
Enthrall: Mp: 54 Target: Single, M.Acc-50-M.Eva Chance of Charm
Mind Spike: Target: Single, 75+3d6 - M.Arm damage
I: Fatal, Mystify
X-Action
Exp: 9,592 Gil: 3,278

Finally of course the Kill Reaper
Notably not notorious because I was just obsessed with them not I was using them as an example of something busted in the engine.
We set our hp to 4x. +18xp
We dump both Arm&M.Arm. -10xp
We also dump Evade% and M.Evade%. -66Xp
We take one attack, Reaping Scythe a flat 60% chance to inflict death(we class it as whatever the party can't lock). +67
Hp: 2,112 Spd: 30
Arm: 23 M.Arm: 11 Evade%: 26 M.Eva%: 12
Reaping Scythe: Target: Single, 60% chance to inflict death
Exp: 1,078 Gp: 352

So according to their formula's, that kill reaper who gets extreme iniative every round, has 2k hp, and has a straight 60% chance to inflict death. Is half as strong as the mind flayer, it's barely stronger than a monster with no abilities!

Now, I'm not going to go do all that math and suffering, without MORE math and suffering.

Let's see JUST how terrible this system is, there's a reason every monster was level 22.

Give me 5 characters to fight the following 3 encounters (with a break between each.)
3 Mind Flayers + 3 Rune Golems
The Elder Brain + 2 Rune Golems
2 Kill Reapers

Any class except thief(because economy) and inventor(because I don't want to touch that), is an acceptable choice, level is 22 and you can just tell me what classes you want to see. Skills will be assumed at 90%(It should be 92% but meh.)

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Oct 8, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG Part 15: Example characters

Our party looks pretty good actually!

Overman is a yeti dragoon
Str:24 Vit:26 Agi: 1 Spd:8 Mag: 1 Spr: 1
He's maxed out his possible investment in vit, and dedicated himself to strengh otherwise, Spd 8 is enough to hit lancet if he needs it after all and he only REALLY needs cherry blossom.

Godna is a yeti bard, because yeti's also make the best bards....I checked. Moogles look tempting but low Vit man.
Str: 1 Vit: 18 Agi: 1 Spd: 20 Mag: 11 Spr: 11
He's maxed out both vitality and speed, He's balancing mag and spr growth now for more damage and more success%.

Snorb is our resident midget, a Taru Taru blue mage.
Str:1 Vit: 16 Agi: 1 Spd: 12 Mag: 15 Spr: 16
He surprisingly hasn't capped his SPR! only at a 16 out of 26! However this is because this a one shot, if it was a real game you would make him have 26 spirit. (Technically 27 but odd points don't add to hp/mp.)

Hildebrand is a human(boooo) magic knight, under the theory both magic knights and Hildebrand are awesome.
Str: 19 Vit: 14 Agi: 1 Spd: 16 Mag: 1 Spr: 10
He has a relatively balanced spread of stats, in a real game again this isn't possible.

Sirphoeboes brings up the rear as our second midgit, being a taru taru white mage.
Str: 1 Vit: 10 Agi: 1 Spd: 4 Mag: 15 Spr: 30
Sirphobeoes has burnt all pretense of speed for hitpoints and most importantly mp, the whitemage wants to go first(to throw up protective statuses) or last(heal) at this level group protects don't really exist.

After a quick shopping Trip of 15,000 gp, and spell selection we can look at our heroes.

Overman's Final Stats
Hp: 437 Spd:8
Acc%: 144 Evade%: 9 M.Eva%: 2 Arm: 50 M.Arm: 22
Viper Halberd (Rank 6)- 13*Str(338) + 3d12 damage
Soldier's Armor- 21 Arm, 15 M.Arm, +1 Str
Cross Helmet- 9 Arm, 7 M.Arm, +1 Str
No armwear
No Accessory
Jump: Does 676 + 3d12*2 damage.
Cherry Blossom: Does 254 + 3d12*.75 damage.
Lancet: 423 + 3d12*1.25 damage
Overman despite what his vit might say is no tank when it comes to arm, but he can certainly lay down the smack down.

Godna's Final Stats
Hp: 299 Spd: 20
Expertise%: 99 Eva%: 21 M.Eva%: 22 Arm: 23 M.Arm: 24
No Weapon
Survival Vest- 13 Arm, 13 M.Arm, +10% Expertise
Triangle Hat- 4 Arm, 6 M.Arm, +1 Mag
No Armwear
Guard Braclet- Auto-Protect, Auto-Shell. These are a rank 7 accessory that costs 12,000gp to buy. It says a lot i buy 3 of them.
Water Rondo: 12 + 1d12 damage
Foe Requiem: 48 + 2d12 damage, 30% chance of curse
Silence Song: 84 + 2d12 damage, 30% chance of silence
Godna here is going to be invaluable for one thing, MASS SLEEP.

Snorb's Final Stats
Hp: 276 Mp: 276 Spd:13
M.Acc%: 152 Eva%: 13 M.Eva%: 31 Arm: 10 M.Arm: 13
Mage Staff, 2*Mag(32) + 1d8 damage, +1 mag
Mantra Band- 7 Arm, 9 M.Arm, +1 Speed
No headwear
No armband
Guard Braclet- Auto-Protect, Auto-Shell
Spells Known:
Level1ish- Flash(4xmag and blind all enemies), Choco-ball(4xmag x1.5 if they are flying), Leap(8x str and armor down)
level2ish?- Flamethrower(8xmag single target), Poison Gas(poison all enemies), Blaster(4xmag and immobilize all enemies), Hastebreak(Inflict agility break or if agi down/break is there inflict slow and refresh), Nightfall(Sleep EVERYONE)
Level3ish?- Death Force(Give I:Fatal), Drillshot(Make an attack ignoring weapon abilities that ignores armor)
Hope you learn that blue magic in the example! also multible strengh based damage spells, sigghhhh bluemages.
4xMag= 64
8xMag= 128
Remember how I said blue magic was random? There really aren't good level3ish blue magic spells.

Hildebrand
Hp: 276 Mp: 207 Spd:16
Acc%: 154 Eva%: 17 M.Eva%: 15 Arm: 47 M.Arm: 32
Break Knuckle- 10 * Str (210) + 4d6 damage, stone touch.
Soldier's Armor- 21 Arm, 15 M.Arm, +1 Str
Cross Helm- 9 Arm, 7 M.Arm, +1 Str
Savage Gauntlet- 5 Arm, 2 M.Arm, +10% Acc
No Accessory
Spellblades
Elements: He has 4 but i don't CARE
Status: Sleep(10mp), Slow(15), Silence(15), Confuse(30), Blind(10mp)
Effect: Drain Strike(30 mp, delicious hp hildebrand must eat it)
Hildebrand is lynchpin number 2 of the parties strategy, ie spam seal statuses, I:Seal would wreck this team. Hildebrand could have taken meltdown strike instead of drain strike which is drill shot that ignores barriers except shield, like say wall. He also does the 2nd most damage.

Sir phoeboes
Hp: 184 Mp: 460 Spd: 4
M.Acc%: 152 Eva%: 5 M.Eva%: 45 Arm: 15 M.Arm: 20
Mage Staff, 2xMag (34)+1d6 damage, +1 Mag
No Body Armor
Triangle Hat, 4 Arm, 6 M.Arm, +1 Mag
Echo Wrist, 5 Arm, 6 M.Arm, I:Seal
Guard Bracelet- Auto-Protect, Auto-Shell
Spells
level1- Aero, Cure, Elemental Guard, Poisona, Scan, Sight- 68+d8
Level2- Berserk, Fade, Faith, Stona- 136+2d8
Level3- Cura, Aera, Brave- 204+3d8/153+3d8*.75
Brave can up Overman or Hildebrad's damage by 25% assuming sir phoeboes has the free turn from spamming mass cura for 153hp. Yes he can basically full heal himself with group cure, no this will only get more true with time since his hp multiplier has maxed out while his magic is only a bit above half.

The party has around 6k left between them, I could buy an item for someone....
Or i could buy 56 tinctures which heal 15mp, and 5 phoenix downs.
Yeah obvious choice.

Also LOOK at the diffrences in those stats, freaking LOOK.
Also look how irrelevant Arm&M.Arm are, blocking 15-50 damage.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Oct 8, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG 3e Part 16: Round 1, FIGHT!

I will assume the party knows what Mind flayers do(Being they are heading to the elder brain), but not Rune Golems. This fight being an introduction to their gimick in preperation for the Elder Brain fight. (But somehow our blue mage never learned stare or matra magic, shrug.)

We begin with initiative for each combatant.

The three Mind Flayer's get
14, 19, 11

The Three Rune golem's gem
13, 6, 12

Our heroes get
11(Overman), 26(Godna), 23(Snorb), 17(Hildebrand), Sir Phoeboes(12)

Init Order
Godna (26)
Snorb (23)
Mind Flayer (19)
Hildebrand (17)
Mind Flayer (14)
Rune Golem (13)
Sir Phoebes (12)
Rune Golem (12)
Mind Flayer (11)
Overman (11)
Rune Golem (6)

BEGIN!

Godna immediately begins charging lullaby, let's end this before it begins.

Snorb does what he can, he casts Poison Gas. 1Hit, 69Miss, 95Miss, 25Hit, 90HIT!, 32Hit
While snorb did miss the mind flayers, poisoning the rune golems will make this go a lot faster.

Godna's lullaby now goes off. 2Hit!, 47Hit!, 61Miss, 25 Hit, 100 Miss, 97 Miss.
And in one turn the fight has been decided with the 19, and 14 init mind flayers asleep hildebrand goes before the last and can go for a silence strike.

Hildebrand's Turn, he charges up a silence strike to use on the awake mind flayer, this is their last chance to shut it down before it can try it's mass confuse attack! His attack roll 32, 34, 39. He silences the Mind Flayer but just barely manages to not turn it to stone. It also takes 205 damage.

It is now Sir Phoebes, said white mage's turn, they cast brave on the dragoon. Because, Really, why WOULDN'T you want 25% more damage during mop up.

The second rune golem goes....and the GM remembers Sir Phoebes is immune to silence. So Silence hildebrand is the best option here. 34, 50 no silence. 105 damage.

Our silenced mind flayer gets to go, he tries to get some tentacle action going on Hildebrand. 43 that hits, He takes 36 damage, huh armor was relevant.

Overman Jumps.

Poison damage hits the first mind flayer and the three rune golems.
Hildebrand: 132 hp
Mind Flayer #1: Asleep(3), Poisoned, 888hp
Mind Flayer #2: Asleep(3)
Mind Flayer #3: Silenced(3), 781hp
Rune Golem #1: Asleep(3), Poisoned, 1901hp
Rune Golem #2: Poisoned, 1901hp
Rune Golem #3: Poisoned, 1901hp

You know what, you know that point in a 4e encounte where half the enemies are dead and so the gimick is broken, and the other half are bloodied and you just say "Can we skip this?". This is that point, it's round one.
gently caress this game, I'm not playing this poo poo, you've seen what combat looks like. You can probably tell where it's going. The party lands save or sucks on the enemy or they die horribly to save or sucks themselves, Overman is currently hitting damage cap with his next 3 jumps and that would kill 1.5 of the Rune Golems, the poison will do as much damage as he does. Damage is a CHORE to slog through the enemies massive hp pool. And if the enemies had I:Seal being immune to silence, sleep and stone? Well the party is basically just dead right there aren't they?

gently caress this, let's review a GOOD FF game.....

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Oct 9, 2018

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG 4e Part 1: Wait there's a 4e?!

Apparently yes.

And you are saying it's good?

Better than d6 from a cursory glance.

Cursory glance?

It was released while I was reviewing 3e, so my in depth analysis of this is totally blind kids. Apparently my sheer glaring at my old shame brought it from the bowels of nothingness into reality.

So ready to do this? I am.

It starts with the standard RPG stuff, I'm ignoring that.

It goes into design principles, yes it is up and center with them. I'll bullet point.
* Recreate the "feeling" of old jrpgs: 8-32 bit and nostalgia get priority.
* Group Focus: The group isn't just the GM.
* Avoid downtime: Self evident.
* Quick Production: Make it faster rather than having every possible option.
* Create 2 Games: Old school rpgs had a hard divide between exploration and combat, so this game has a hard divide between non-combat and combat. They use entirely different systems.
* Tabletop: The game has to be playable on a tabletop unlike what the original design team went off to do which they proudly proclaimed required a computer.

Then we have Group Creation, wait group creation? YEP! GROUP CREATION!
Step 1) Choose traits: Choose what kind of heroes your group are. (This is awesome.)
Step 2) Choose name: Your party has a cool name, obviously.
Step 3) Choose roots: Choose how your party formed.
Step 4) Create the evil: What is the current main antagonist, this probably will change over the course of the caimpaign.
Step 5) Generate Destiny: You get 4 destiny points, however unlike ffd6 these are ONLY a non-combat currency, i just wonder why it's in group creation.

Now let's go over the Traits. first off TELLS HOW YOUR PARTY GETS EXP. Did you not take monster hunters? Then random encounters don't give exp. Did you take treasure hunters? Then act like old school D&D characters and take everything not bolted down...then take the bolts. Each trait has a way it gets exp, a way the party can spend destiny(The good), and a thing they can't do WITHOUT spending destiny(The Bad). But The Bad is always "Turn down being the heroes you are" so it's more a loss of destiny than spending.
Monster hunter: You get XP from murdering monsters, You can spend Destiny to know or discover stuff about monsters, You can't have non-hostile encounters with monsters unless you spend destiny.
Sense of Duty: You work for some person or organization and get XP for helping them, You spend destiny to receive help from them, You can't tell them to piss off from a mission unless you spend destiny.
People's Hero: You get XP by serving the proletariat I mean protecting the people, You spend destiny to receive help from them, You can't refuse a request for help from the humble masses unless you spend destiny.
Relic's from the Past: You love old magic or technology you get XP for finding it, You spend destiny to figure out how this poo poo WORKS, You must take the horrible cursed relic unless you spend destiny. (That....is hilarious.)
Mercenary: You are in it for the Gps and you get XP for getting paid and finding treasure, You spend destiny to have black market contacts in loving dungeons man, No one will think of you as anything but a treasure hound when they know your intentions unless you spend Destiny.
Nemesis: See the evil you get XP for fighting the evil kind of keeps the evil alive a LOT longer, You can spend destiny to escape your nemesis pretty much no matter what, If you try to use destiny to make a plan against them though well they know how YOU work and it costs an extra point. (I'd prefer spending destiny not to punch in their smug face.)
Protege: You have something precious something worth protecting you get XP for protecting(Protege really?), You can spend destiny to reroll tasks involving doing so, If it dies if you fail you lose all your destiny.
Reputation: Instead of D&D you are playing Mazes&Minotaurs it's glory for XP baby!, You can spend destiny to have your reputation proceed you, You have to spend destiny to pretend to not be that famous guy who you definitely aren't.

Then is character Creation
1) Choose a name: duh.
2) Choose traits and quirks: You see those 3 group traits? You can replace one with your own trait....your sidequest if you will. Then you pick 3 quirks which are defining non-combat features, races are under quirks, as is intuitive magic. Quirks let you spend destiny on task checks after a roll, or they might cause you trouble generating destiny.
3) Choose your Jobs: Each character has a primary job and a secondary job, the secondary jobs come from their OWN LIST, thus preventing combination explosion as the secondary jobs are designed around being combined while the primary jobs are designed as "This is what I do." Just as an example there is no Primary job Tank, there are two Secondary job Tanks.
4) Spend XP to increase your stats: This is weird. Your stats are....Earth, Air, Fire & Water. They generally overlap to Str/Con, Dex, Int/Mag, Cha/Mag, but not entirely. I'll explain how stats work later but you spend XP to increase your stats, and the sum of your stats determines your level for anything that is based on level(such as hp/mp and ability tracks). (Standard starting characters have 200xp)
5) Assign Skills: You get 1 skillpoint per 3 levels, but a skill point is a MUCH bigger deal. You can't have more skills total in a stat's associated skills than your stat level.
6) Aquire your abilities: Get the level 1 abilities from your job and subjob.
7) Buy your starting gear: 200gp.
8) Finishing touches: Calculate your hp/mp, check over your quirks, that sort of things.

Past this is mechanics, and here I stop till next time when we cover....all of non-combat.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

JcDent posted:

When I saw those HP scores, I immediately clocked out, and that was a few posts ago.

I do not blame you, at all.

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Leraika posted:

I was not particularly impressed by 4e, but hopefully it's improved since I last played it.

I certainly am!
Also i guess it's just the most recent release came out during my review, I legit did not know it existed until near the end.

But most importantly, none of us have to look at 3e anymore!

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Halloween Jack posted:

Didn't somebody here say that the lesson of Final Fantasy combat is that only playing a party would be really interesting, as the individual characters don't have many meaningfully different options? It feels like that's still the case.

I think the answer is to not get caught up in one class=one character and treat them how the games do.

Every game that uses the classes themselves after FF3 let's characters mix&match some way.
And the games with clearly defined character roles also let's those characters move out of their nitch(notably with the exception of white/black mages.) and cross class in some way, Job+Job is probably the actual way to make you feel like an FF Character and not an FF Job.

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WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

FFRRPG 4E Part 2: Non-combat

For reference: Any time i mention the rules, I am using the simplified rules, Because the game seems built around them and the complicated rules feel like an artifact for people who want the old system. I will mention the difference when we come to the explanation themselves.

Challenges aka skill rolls
Whenever your GM calls for a skill roll they declare a difficulty, probably between 3 and 7. You roll a d10 if you get that or higher you win, for each point you have in a skill you roll an extra die. So if you have strength 2 and you are trying to be strong, roll 3d10 if any equal or exceed the difficulty you succeed.
A challenge should have
A) A chance for success or failure: No rolling to tie your shoes.
B) A meaningful consequence for failure: No rolling to pick a lock if you can keep retrying until you do it.
C) An impact on the story: No rolling just to ride a chocobo cross country, roll to ride a chocobo out of a burning castle.

You may choose to fail at a challenge whenever you wish.

Destiny Points
Unlike d6 which probably(almost explicitly) inspired these, you only use destiny out of combat.
You get destiny with the following things.
If a quirk is annoying you get 1 destiny, if a quirk is a serious hardship requiring a hard or multiple challenge 2 destiny, if a quirk causes inescapable consequences 3 destiny.
Any time the party succeeds on a significant goal related to their traits the GM may hand out points along with the exp.
Any time you choose to forfeit a challenge related to one of your quirks you get a destiny.

You spend destiny on the following things.
If you have a quirk related to the roll you can spend 1 destiny for +2, or 2 destiny for +4 this is after the roll. So you won't waste destiny.
You can spend 4 destiny to do a feat of heroism, something humanly impossible. This is where you hold up a house with your glorious muscles, or turn a raging river threatening to sweep the party away into ice and save them.
You can spend 1 destiny to walk up to random NPCs and get relevant Info. What, it's final fantasy.
You can spend 7 destiny to have some miraculous reversal of fortune bail your butts out, if you happen to DIE but the rest live this only costs 4.
You can spend 10 destiny to survive despite it being impossible or bring someone back from the dead.

Aspects....I mean quirks
Every character has three quirks, the main uses of these(gaining and spending destiny) have been covered.
Races are quirks, letting you spend points for things they are good at in the fluff, and getting it for things they are bad at. (Thus you may continue to have a party of magical midgets.)
Intuitive magic is under the quirks, incase you wanted to use your magic skill for more than magic lore. (Why yes i would like illusion magic.)
There are some other magically quirks like bottomless pockets, lycanthrope or visions.
There is also more normal quirks like arrogant, honest, compulsive liar(I AM THE MOON! stuff is what are SUPPOSED to be doing even.), Naive idealist, uncommon beauty, etc.

Overall, the non-combat system is pretty solid for what it wants to do. I can't really fault it. If you are going to fault the game, it will probably be in every other section which focuses on combat.

WhitemageofDOOM fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 9, 2018

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