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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

ZeroCount posted:

C)Depending on how easily you can lead this thing around you might be able to use it to destroy a lot of other dungeon monsters like the Bone Weirds in the room just below. I'm picturing someone somehow baiting the blackball all the way through the Fortress and into Acererak's face.

That'd be a hilarious outcome. Is there actually anything in the adventure to prevent that?

Also the Bone Weirds are, oddly enough, probably less dangerous than original flavour Water Weirds, which just attack with a save-or-die drowning strike. Though I guess losing your spine counts for much the same. Is there a provided table to roll for what bones you lose? Or is it just up to the GM?

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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
...so the Phoenix accidentally made a sentient and insane hivemind artifact that learns from anyone who tries to destroy it? Eventually either figuring out how to negate their attacks or copy them against future aggressors? Everything about the creation of this thing, from the basic components to everything that follows, sounds like a checklist for how to gently caress up with magic. :v:

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, it goes on to spawn the Children of the Last Wish, magical spirits described as "... tiny, beautiful samurai women dressed in form-fitting armor..." which is probably the most anime thing that L5R ever got.

"poo poo, they're on to me. I can't conquer them with magical force. I'll just make a bunch of waifus and make them love me instead. When they've forgotten all their spells in favour of crafting exquisite bodypillows, I can finally escape!"

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
I have to admit I don't quite understand the con games, wouldn't they only work once? Afterwards, everyone(who was interested) and their mom would've heard about it and would know enough to have a completely unbalanced shot at it the second time around.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
What I don't get is, after you blast the Phylactery with a sunlight wand, can't you THEN kick it into the Negative Material, now that all the captured souls are released?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
So wait a moment, why does the 3.5E Blackball have 30 points of Charisma? It has no methods of communication with anyone or anything, no Charisma-based skills, and as far as I remember, no saves are based on Charisma. I guess it's just a really dashing and seductive sphere of absolute entropy.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Doresh posted:

They just want you to know that they are born Bards. Who would've guessed that the face of the party doesn't actually need one?

All the Blackball wants to do is play the guitar, but it was created without limbs and if it did touch a guitar, it would destroy it. That's why it's so angry all the time.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Are we talking about some other "G-word" or did "gypsy" somehow become offensive rather than just a bit archaic in use? :v:

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
I guess I need to hang out with more lovely racist people to really experience it used as a slur.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Terrible Opinions posted:

It's mostly a European thing. Ask any otherwise liberal European a question about Roma settlement rights and a depressing portion of the ti9me they will devolve before your eyes into card carrying KKK member but with one slur replaced with another.

Probably depends on where in Europe you are, here in Denmark, gypsies are basically a non-existent thing in the popular mind except for the one time every two years there's some minor hubbub in the media because some got discriminated against or because of minor assimilation problems like a few years ago when the authorities had problems keeping their kids in school. I get the impression that the farther south in Europe you get, the harder they get shat on.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Traveller posted:

[*]The Phoenix: their reputation as pacifists is being tested this year due to their increasingly thinning patience after suffering the mujina pranks. The Isawa temper has snapped several times in court already as they find their clothes change colors, their hair grows whole feet and entire scouting troops have been sent to the wrong places. What's worse, two mujina have followed their representatives to the Emperor's court. They are desperate to hide the mujina pranks and gain the Emperor's support to get rid of the ones in Isawa lands, and Isawa Kaede has repeatedly attempted to force the Crab to send experienced units to help them. Isawa Tsuke is also in court and threatens to find a way to burn the mujina out at any cost, and the rivalry between him and the Acolyte of Void has grown in the year, which does little for Tsuke's mood. If anyone meets the Phoenix for too long, they will undoubtedly begin to notice the unusual occurrences in their quarters: the Phoenix will try to stall by implying their are spirits bound by Phoenix magics, but as the disturbances grow the Isawa become notably upset and cut negotiations short. :haw:

I love everything about the Crab and their relations with the less malicious non-humans. I really want to believe that they got a bunch of Mujina intentionally all up in the Phoenix and are laughing themselves ragged on the inside while keeping a totally chill exterior.

PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 11, 2016

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

quote:

one could read books without opening them

For a "dud" talent, assuming that works for any sort of document that has multiple pages and/or a cover, and of course dependent on range and other things, that'd seem pretty useful for espionage. If it's got a bit of range, just have a chat with someone who HAS a document, don't even need to steal it or copy it, and you could read it right out of his pocket or off his desk without him ever knowing it.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
The wizard using magic to hide inside the Council of Order closet is brilliant. I love it when some of the utility spells get some screentime, rather than just the #d6 of damage spells.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Serf posted:

The non-people people of The Strange were clearly thought up as a way around the old "slaughtering a village of orcs" thing that annoys D&D fans to no end. I mean how can you feel bad about killing things that just look like people but aren't actually people? Unfortunately, this is a piss-poor solution that normalizes violence and just excuses even worse acts.

For that matter, how would the PC's even know the difference unless they had a special device/sense for detecting sentience in creatures?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Continuum, man, what a pile of wank.


Rand Brittain posted:

If words are food, proper nouns are a garnish. Some games are garnished with them. (Demon is a ham sandwich with no mayonnaise.) Mummy is tomato basil soup with no tomatoes, so it's effectively an entire bowl of ground basil.

And I want to take this post and frame it, because it made me laugh.

Daeren posted:

There's more to Memory than you'd expect, and you can absolutely do that scenario in-play, but I don't think there's any mechanics for that exact scenario. As for having a group of mummies hang together...it gets messy. They do try, but trying to make a game around six people who can hurl meteors out of the sky for a few weeks and each individually have a cult of servants is as fiddly as it sounds.

Six Final Fantasy bosses trying to hang out together but all their wings and halos and poo poo keep getting stuck in each other or accidentally bapping someone in the face. And their attendant cults are shouting to have their master's hymns heard over the others'.

But I guess, in that case, if they're hard to play together... how do their power levels support them hanging out with, say, Vampires or Mages at certain parts of their Sekhem cycle? I mean, yeah, I know, cross-splat play in anything made by White Wolf/Onyx Path is an absolute joke, but sometimes it's more absurd than in other cases.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Also if mummies are saddled with cults by default, I'm imagining some mummies who don't want to put up with that poo poo, and are desperately trying to stay at least moderately anonymous while their fanclub tries to track them down.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

potatocubed posted:

I think the problem TFV would face with mummies is that a) a mummy is extremely difficult to put down even once and b) they can do unspeakable amounts of collateral damage in the attempt. Meteor showers, earthquakes, blasting people into pillars of salt, zombie plagues...

All in all, you're better just working out what they want and giving it to them so they go back to sleep.

Due to the Mummy's poor memory, TFV convinces him that he's actually someone's lost grandpa who just got turned around and has been missing for 20 years. Ends up spending the remainder of his particular rising in a retirement home until he runs out of Sekhem.

I Am Just a Box posted:

Although I did enjoy the tangent that emerged on rpg.net awhile back which started at this premise and went in the opposite direction: because mummies have brief periods of terrifying power, have little reason to respect any kind of masquerade, make unclear demands addled by their initial fogginess on rising, and direct hidden networks of followers, the government's response is to drop all other priorities in favor of a Global War on Mummies.

Someone's slightly batty grandparent, except if you don't bring him that glass of cobra's milk right away, he's going to turn you into salt. A game about playing as a Mummy's minions, trying to satisfy his occasionally baffling, but rarely ever malevolent, demands, so he doesn't throw a fit that ends up destroying the town.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

gradenko_2000 posted:

Mummy dust/bandages keep coming up as crafting materials for disease cures.

The latest Chinese fad cure turns out to be mummy bandages, the PC's, low on Mummy Mana, have to hide from shady Chinese businessmen who want to bundle them up and sell them as a substitute for Viagra.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Nessus posted:

I like what they do with the superbrains, although I guess you could also argue that the ability wouldn't necessarily make you more able to do massive intuitive leaps, though it might appear that way if you can put together disparate pieces of scientific information. That would be a distinction that's hard to game, though.

Okay, so it says that Hyperbrains are too pacifistic to develop the MEGA NUCLEAR MEGA BOMB OF MEGA DESTRUCTION, but what prevents them from being used as part of inventing amazing civilian technology? Hyperloop transport systems(assuming they can be made at all), near-infinite energy sources, cures for cancer or other medical advances, etc.? It seems weird that they wouldn't change history in that way, at least.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Forums Terrorist posted:

Or you'd have an entire cohort of Jonas Venture types.

That'd be even funnier, honestly. They COULD change the course of the war or they COULD cure cancer, but instead they're locked into feuds with enemy hyperbrains, cancelling their DEATH RAYS with LIFE SHIELDS, and when they're not busy doing that, they've realized that they could make themselves incredibly lifelike sex bots instead of improving life for everyone else. A combination of petty feuding and narcicissm keeping them from truly upstaging the world(at least over the short span), honestly seems more plausible than ULTRA EMPATHY.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
This is a really good start to TGMM. I love that it's not just a dungeon crawl or a brawl or whatever, it feels like this is the sort of poo poo Planescape should be about. Creative problem solving and occasional lawyering.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Fossilized Rappy posted:

It seems so easy to avoid the "Wise Magic Natives" thing by letting everyone have supernatural traditions. I mean, it's not like there is a dearth of European mysticism or anything, but instead it's always conveniently put in the laps of the Other. Why does it seem that none of the games like Palladium's ever think of that loophole?

Funny thing is, I could imagine modern Europeans or Americans being much faster to believe in magical/religious solutions/options than, say, the modern Chinese or Japanese, or Russians, or most Africans.

Turns out New Age Crystal Energy and Pyramid Power really DO repel zombies! That hippie lady's stew/potion made out of highway weeds actually DOES cute zombie bite infections!

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Yeah, the mechanics are mostly good, but sometimes it's a pain to find the exact mechanic or rule you want.

There are also a few general fuckups, just to list the ones that always bugged me:

The "you always win initiative"-advantage is hugely OP since most fights against humans can be ended by just being the first to land a blow, if you have anything resembling a decent weapon.

Constitution is a garbage stat since effectively no skills rely on it and Strength has just a big effect on HP as it does(I always houserule the HP calculations for this reason).

The advantages and disadvantages are full-on 90's in general, with the disadvantages largely being a mixture of things no one can actually take if they want to play(like being blind, or deaf, or having no legs) and "roleplaying" disadvantages like "is a real meanie" or "has an enemy."

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
Well, I tend to roll with three houserules for AFMBE chargen.

#1: The "special initiative track"-advantage is just a flat bonus to your init roll, it's an advantage, but not an unbeatable one.

#2: I make Constitution at least twice, if not three times, as important to health calculations as strength. It's not an ideal solution, but it means that it can't be COMPLETELY ignored. It's not a hard-set rule, I tend to eyeball it every time I use the system.

#2: I also unfuck the Essence calculations. Not sure why they made it a total of all your stats. Instead, I make it 4x Willpower, +1x Perception, +1x Intelligence. Again, to give Willpower a bit more of a purpose, because Willpower doesn't have many skill uses.

Combat also tends to get a bit roll-heavy, so I like to set armor to a static number rather than a rolled number. I tend to heavily cut the skill list, since it's, again, full of useless 90's skills that only really have a purpose as "roleplaying" skills for the most part, even though some of them could, in fringe cases, be used to support others(Beautician to help someone apply makeup for a disguise or something, or whatever).

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
I think this is one of the few games I can remember where the pre-made "warrior" character is a woman, rather than a burly dude.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Zereth posted:

Because opposable thumbs are pretty cool.

"Behold, humans! I have petitioned the spirits of the great beyond to be reborn as one of you, for a grand, noble, purpose!"

"Tell us, oh wondrous shapeshifter! What is this purpose?"

"Well you see I can't play Call of Duty without thumbs. Now shuffle over and let me get to work."

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
A captured Pentadrone? Aren't they reasonably tough customers? I have to admit that I can't really remember Modron stats by heart, but about the toughest Tacharim we've heard mentioned so far seem to be 4th-level fighters, which is pretty tough, but chump change compared to a lot of planar creatures. Pretty impressive they managed to capture a 9th-level ranger, too, she could probably make mincemeat out of most of the encounters by herself once the players free her and give her something sharp to wield.

For that matter, what do the Modrons do if freed? Instantly make a beeline for rejoining the March? Or do they hang around and help clear out the Tacharim since they're a danger to the March?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Prism posted:

I dug up some old stats out of curiosity; a pentadrone has 5 HD, 3 AC, attacks for 1d4+4 five times a round (they're extremely strong but unarmed) and can emit a stream of paralysis gas in a 2' wide, 5' long line once every five turns (AD&D reminder: that's 50 rounds, or a bit more often than once an hour; they're not doing it twice in a battle). They also require magic weapons to hurt and resist extreme temperatures, including fire and cold damage.

5HD, assuming Fighter Thac0 progression is already pretty good, and considering the high strength their Thac0 might've been boosted even further, and 3AC isn't anything to sneeze at either.

5 x 1d4+4 damage means between 5 and 40 points of damage in a round if they hit someone. 40 points of damage is enough to vaporize most characters, especially if you're not assuming maxed hit dice, and the paralysis gas is basically a save-or-die. For it to seem believable to me, yeah, the Yeth Hounds would have to basically paralyze the Modrons with their fear effect.

But I'm just being a nitpicky nerd because I expected the Tacharim to be preying on the smaller and weaker modrons rather than actually being a threat to someone somewhat up the hierarchy.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Hostile V posted:

DAMAGE

Damage is calculated by rolling the relevant dice and then multiplying it. Damage multipliers for ranged weapons are loosely defined by distance the bullet travels (more damage for point-blank) but have a basic fixed multiplier while melee weapons have a multiplier based on the user's Strength. Time for special weapon rules that don't necessarily apply to fighting the undead! Two-handed weapons add +1 to the Strength of the wielder for damage. Slashing/stabbing weapons do double damage (to humans, this doesn't apply to zombies). Bullets that pierce armor do double damage from getting trapped inside, hollow point bullets deal triple damage but double armor between the target in bullet and AP bullets don't do extra damage but halve the armor. Shotguns really just hit targets easier with shot and their other bonuses depend on the other types of shot. Explosives deal both shockwave and fragment/shrapnel damage and depending on the balance between of the two damage varies. There is also poison, disease, fire, falls and more but that's pretty specific.

You mix up the bullet effects a bit here, but only a little bit.

The damage multipliers for bullets are 1x for Armor Piercing, 2x for Normal and 3x for Hollow Point, after armor is subtracted. Half of armor value is subtracted from the damage you roll with AP, the normal value for normal bullets and twice the armor value for hollowpoint. A target doesn't need to be wearing armor for Normal bullets to get their 2x damage multiplier. Similarly, the damage multiplier for slashing weapons is applied only after armor. All of the post-armor multipliers don't work against zombies unless it specifically says it does for that specific zombie, which is a bit of an odd rule, you'd figure that a hollowpoint bullet would be extra good at removing someone's brain whether they were dead or alive. But maybe it's a game balance thing.

These multipliers are also what the game refers to as "levels," in damage terms. It's a bit confusing terminology at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's relatively simple. Though, yeah, it does slightly hide just how squishy humans are in AFMBE. Assuming bog standard stats(2 in everything), the average human has 26 HP. A .22 handgun loaded with normal bullets does 1d4x2 damage(with a further x2 multiplier for the normal bullets), for damage ranging between 4 and 16 points of damage. On a torso hit. If someone aims for the head, that's 32 damage. So expect people to die or get crippled the instant guns come into play, if no one's wearing body armor.

This does also produce a GM'ing challenge, though, in that you have to be very careful about ambushing your PC's. Because if someone wins initiative against them, they could be dead or crippled before they even have a chance to respond. And, conversely, encounters can feel a bit anticlimactic if the enemy gets cut down to a quarter of their number in the first round without a chance to respond. This is further exacerbated because there's a sidebar which encourages making Will rolls to not lose their next round of actions whenever you're hit(really hard-to-make Will rolls because you're penalized by the damage you take, good luck passing that roll if you took 10 points of damage and don't have sky-high Will).

The rules for damaging the undead also have a few oddities. For humans, the damage needed to cripple or remove a specific body part is a percentage of the total HP of the target. For zombies, it's just a flat number. So by RAW, even if you have Mega Zombie, the Zombie That Is Mega, with 1000 HP, it's still just a flat 15 HP to blow his leg off and leave him squirming in the dirt. Obviously this is an easy thing to fix, but, still, it feels like something that shouldn't have been there by RAW.

As for zombies: I vote for the pile of living intestines in Dead Alive/Braindead.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
You've really sold me on Godbound, I think I may actually get this RPG, give it a read on my own and try to run it.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
That bit with the Organ Grinder and outdoorsy skills had me chuckling, that's up there with the charming sphere of ultimate entropy.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
AFMBE does fast but functional, and highly lethal, "modern" combat. So you can strip out the zombies and, those little few issues I mentioned earlier aside, use it pretty effectively as a generic "modern" system that doesn't get bogged down in 500 kinds of guns and their attachments, or fifty modifiers for the effects of wind speed on your gun. And really, if you want something relatively realistic, it does make sense that getting the drop on your enemy and firing first is the biggest advantage you can possibly have.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
The Deadworlds are pretty great, some of them are clearly homages to other fiction, but still well-executed.

I also notice that the Blackguard PrC gets a skeleton buddy, but no holy mount like real Paladins do. So now I'm imagining this black-clad, spiky-armoured villain riding piggyback on a zombie or skeleton.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Nessus posted:

For A. I get the feeling the 'philosophical knife fights' were basically alignment warring but I never "got" Planescape anyway, I guess. As for B., middle class white American game designers, I reckon; I also imagine this is why the gods keep being so loving brutal. A situation where God is good and organized religion is a force for positivity does not gel well with the zeitgeist

The thing about Planescape is that the factions don't map directly to alignments. For instance, the Harmonium is just generally Lawful, it covers everything from Lawful Good progressives wanting a functioning police system, through Lawful Neutral obsessives with legal minutiae and through Lawful Evil fascists who want to purge all the elves because they're scum. Anarchists can be Anarchists for any reason. Because they love seeing corpses, because they want to benefit from the chaos, because they want to upset the current order because they feel it's stifling, or maybe because they feel the existing Factions are doing more harm than good.

Generally any given faction will map to either Lawful or Chaotic, that's it. Some don't even map to that, you've got the Bleak Cabal, which is everything from depressive mopers so far removed from giving a poo poo about anything that they might as well not have an alignment, through nihilistic ubermensch who've embraced the lack of universal meaning to carve out their own purpose. The Dustmen? How do you map "the universe is false, a pointless illusion, until you embrace true death, you'll never break free from it." Its total relinquishing of the physical universe and its passions and purposes, just doesn't map to Good or Evil, Law or Chaos. In fact, having an alignment would probably bar you from True Death since having an alignment would mean you CARE about something.

ZeroCount posted:

It really illuminates the problem with D&D alignment-based outsiders. At least a human in the game with a Good alignment is that way because of his actions and if he acts badly enough it can shift to reflect that. Outsiders like gods or angels or whatever are just objectively Good because That's What They Are and it often seems to have very little to do with how they actually act.

Outsiders CAN change alignment. Angels can fall, demons can rise. And alignment has more to do with self-perception than any actions being objectively good or evil, at least in Planescape.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Nessus posted:

So my questions are then, what makes these people in these factions stick together - I can see some gelling but it would seem like you'd get centrifugal force in them - and secondly, how do the Dustmen accomplish anything at all, as your outline here suggests if they did anything, they'd be hypocrites.

A lot of the factions are technically split into subfactions already, like the Doomguard, who're really just three radically opposed factions sharing the Armory and battling for political power to affect the universe's decay, or the Anarchists, who're really dozens of separate cells with similar methods, but often wildly different ultimate goals(or, at least, wildly different reasons for said goals).

I think that sums up faction coherency, really. They've got similar ultimate goals(at least very far down the road), but different reasons for wanting to accomplish said goals. Take the Athar, for instance. Pretty far down the road, what they want to do is destroy all gods, or at least radically change mortals' relationship with them. Whether someone wants to kill the gods because they think it's a scam that pays off in enslaved souls, or it's because they believe gods are actually killable and want to forge a god's essence into a badass hat, they both want dead gods. So what's to stop them working together? They don't have to get married, they just have to trust each others' devotion to the cause far enough to share weapons and information. An evil character won't backstab everyone he travels with on purpose, and especially not if it's liable to weaken his own position. If the ranger's watching the evil guy's back, the evil guy is gonna let him live, because it lowers his own chances of getting stabbed in the kidneys by a kobold.

Like, plus, consider that in 2nd edition AD&D, no one runs around with their alignment tattooed on their forehead(well, maybe a few people in Sigil, to be honest, it gets weird sometimes). Even if the good guys could Detect Evil... it doesn't quite work as an Evildar.

2nd Edition AD&D DMG posted:

Some characters--the paladin, in particular--possess a limited ability to detect alignments, particularly good and evil. Even this power has more limitations than the player is likely to consider. The ability to detect evil is really only useful to spot characters or creatures with evil intentions or those who are so thoroughly corrupted that they are evil to the core, not the evil aspect of an alignment.

Just because a fighter is chaotic evil doesn't mean he can be detected as a source of evil while he is having a drink at the tavern. He may have no particularly evil intentions at that moment. At the other end of the spectrum, a powerful, evil cleric may have committed so many foul and hideous deeds that the aura of evil hangs inescapably over him.

It's more of a detector of current evil intent, than general evil behavior in the past, unless it's been INCREDIBLY evil.

The Dustmen posted:

After reaching True Death, perhaps one can return to Lie. I do not know. I do know that one cannot reach the ideal state, total acceptance of death, until one leaves hope behind - the very hope that fuels the desire for life. Clearly, I still have yet to reach the ideal myself, for I appreciate the irony in this foolish presumption.

An important thing to remember is that not every Faction consists purely of fanatics(probably the Anarchists are the only real exception to this). There are plenty of members of the Doomguard who're just low-tier members making a good living forging weapons and armor at the Armory. There are plenty of Dustmen just working at the Mortuary to make ends meet, or possibly because it's a good tie-in to stealing and selling corpses(or zombies) for a fat stack of coins. Most of the day-to-day work of the Factions, most of the actual business-work, rather than the ideological work, tends to be done by the lower-tier membership. While the top-tier tends to work on the grander, more broad and general directions.

Also, just because you want to reach that gloried state of losing all attachments, doesn't mean you'll instantly get there, and if you die too early, you're back on the wheel again, having to start over from scratch with a new set of emotional, worldly attachments. So there's a paradox which requires you to invest yourself in the false world, to survive there long enough that you can leave it properly.

The Dustmen posted:

Most Dustmen know Skall’s walking the road to becoming one of the True Dead, but that he stays around out of a sense of duty. He feels compelled to enlighten as many berks as possible about the way of death, so they eventually might reach True Death.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Hostile V posted:

Unofficial Game Idea: Misplaced time travelers armed with enough firepower to stop the forces of evil (un)dead in their tracks. Does the Army of Darkness RPG exist? Yes, yes it does, but let me just play a little Devil's Advocate here.

The players are from a timeline where Mordecai won, and his undead/demonic hordes are ruling over the remnants of humanity, and at this point he's so beyond mortal power scales that there's no stopping him. They found the ancient ritual to send themselves back in time, armed with the best weapons they could find, to stop Mordecai before he grew too powerful, and summons something they have no chance against... of course, now they also have to contend with the locals who may consider them monsters themselves, since they look weird, talk weird and are armed weird in the middle of all the madness.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Thuryl posted:

Yeah, originally poison was save-or-die by default with occasional exceptions. By 2e most poisons just did damage on a failed save (and either reduced or no damage on a successful save), but that was often still more than enough to outright kill a low-level character.

All 2E poisons that did damage also tended to do a static amount of damage, not an amount of damage that COULD be high, but just "boop, have 40 points of damage, lol." Which you'd need to be a 4th-level fighter to have ANY chance of surviving.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Doresh posted:

("I'm a teleporting obelisk" would also make for a great Fact.)

The entire party is a collection of divine statuary/sculptures, just appearing overnight in villages or towns and causing weird poo poo to go down.

"Hey guys, do you wonder if the collection of obsidian monoliths that popped up outside town are related to the rain of blood and the fact that everyone in town, men included, gave birth to double-headed mutant children?"

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
This thread got me to cough up the money for Godbound. Hoping to run a game soon. Thanks for the review!

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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
I've never, ever, ever seen a pre-made character that looks ANYTHING like what players end up making, in any system.

Pre-made characters tend to be made to be "realistic," i.e. their skills are all over the place and they're not very "optimized," for the most part they're even badly designed from a mechanical standpoint. Players, on the other hand, tend to have a laser-like focus on either RAW POWER or a specific theme that it feels like you rarely see in the pre-mades.

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