FATAL & Friends 2016-19: Bad Rules and Hidden Jewels

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Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Young Freud posted:

Maybe not, but Palladium/RIFTS is literally AD&D with more clutter.

I think producing combat flowcharts for RIFTS or Palladium Fantasy or whatever like those AD&D ones include several boxes that are just "????".

# ¿ Mar 13, 2016 12:15

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 02:39

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Mors Rattus posted:

Ethereal Player's Guide: Enter Sandman
From their stand, they can learn

# ¿ Mar 19, 2016 14:29

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Okay so wait. The have space up top. It's even an amazingly nice place to live, for Athas.

They are clearly living on the cliffs NOW because they are super traditional and have been doing that for a long time, but they have no reason to have started doing that in the first place.

There's nothing down at the bottom of the cliffs anybody would want, and in fact it's a good idea to stay as far away as possible, so there's no good reason to have built places to rest while moving from the ground level to or from the top, that would have eventually expanded into real cities.

If they needed some inhospitable area to expand into for Reasons, they could have climbed UP from Thamasku onto those plateaus up there, presumably.

And it's not like there USED to be trade with the ground level because before they started living on the cliff that was underwater.

Is the moral of this book "halflings are really loving stupid"?

EDIT: And/or the book's author(s). They clearly decided "cliff-dwelling halflings!" and then failed to provide any reason they'd uh, have started doing that in the first place.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 13:26

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Hostile V posted:

(I'm aware it's most likely a fetish thing)

I'm pretty sure the creator has been confirmed to have a smoking fetish.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

More of a certainty, really.

It's just such a awful and lazy appropriation of feminism (and goddess worship, for that matter) for their abuse fantasies that actually wraps around to being effectively patriarchal itself, I think. It's astonishing, really.

Exactly like Witch Girls Adventures portrays witches and associated supernaturals as things that must be stopped at all costs.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 22:27

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

And as I recall the oWoD books weren't usually explicitly presented as being in-word/in-character information. They were presented in the same "Hello player/GM here is the information on the world" manner as most other RPG supplements.

EDIT: Also this meant that if they were supposed to be like in-character poo poo about how the group saw themselves, you never actually got objective information about what they were really like.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2016 02:09

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

I remember finding it weird even at the time.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2016 03:59

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Does anybody ahve plans to review some of Wick's other adventures so we can see some of his biggest wick moves?

# ¿ Apr 2, 2016 08:22

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Yeah but I want to see specific things he did, that aren't stories of dubious provenance he's telling.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2016 08:35

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

ProfessorProf posted:

This sounds awesome, but you've got a broken image link there.

He's hotlinking to the creator's website. And the creator doesn't support https.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 05:32

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Covok posted:

Are you two sure? I'm seeing the image just fine.

You aren't browsing the forums in https are you?

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 05:55

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Because that's why the image isn't appearing for some people.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 06:05

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Tasoth posted:

The only downside to this is there are no capybara henge rules and when I think of Japanese zoos, I think of capys for some reason.

Capybara henges should have a passive power where everything is cool with them.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 23:09

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Count Chocula posted:

The 'welfare makes people lazy' thing is a bit poo poo. So many of these games have implicit political biases, which is part of why I don't mind the left-wing witch game.

The witch game's political stance is "murdering people with magic is awesome :fap:

" and I mean that emote in the most literal way possible. :gonk:

# ¿ Apr 6, 2016 10:01

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Yes I used the masturbation smiley because I believe the author is non-hyperbole version of literally deriving sexual gratification from this poo poo. And the racist/sexist enemies are simply a convenient excuse to cram their fetish into the game.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2016 10:58

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

The Lord of Hats posted:

Golden Sky Stories looks like so much fun. I want to play a fox and lord my vast wealth of 435 yen in small change from my shrine over all of the other PCs .

I want to play a cat and use the cunning plan of convincing people who caught me talking that I didn't by just saying "No I didn't."

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 00:04

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Doresh posted:

And why the hell is fictional coma-shaming a thing?!

Look, the author says she's bad, therefore she's bad, so let's loving dig through this pile of straws to find a reasonshe's bad.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2016 10:30

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Night10194 posted:

Beast is also the kind of game that drives me to want to play Hunter so I can play as someone whose job it is to deal with creatures like that. One of the most laughable bits in Beast is where they go 'When confronted with a Hunter, the Beast will ask them WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO HUNT and mind will be blown!' as if that isn't the main driving point behind every single Hunter ideology and something every Hunter works out over their vigil.

I feel like that was so badly handled it wraps around to good again, revealing that Beasts... don't actually understand non-Beasts very well.

(See also the "WHAT WOULD BE LEFT IF RIPPED OFF YOUR DISGUISE" opinion on Demons, where the actual answer is "a very angry orb of pure murder" or other things that are similarly Very Bad for the Beast who did it.)

I just wish this had been intentional. A splat whose opinion soundbites reveal that the group's understanding of the other lines is dangerously flawed would be great.

Night10194 posted:

I really liked one of the proposed alternates which is that the Beast and Hero are both trapped by a narrative that is the real villain. But I think that's basically just Changeling, isn't it?

Yeah, where the Beast doesn't win by going "lol nope i'm really better" and murdering/eating the Hero, they win by breaking the Hero vs Beast narrative entirely.

Adnachiel posted:

Even before all of the stuff about how bad the game's writing is came to light, my first reaction to it as a whole was "Uhh, okay... Isn't playing a monster something you can already do in every other game in the line?" It sounded incredibly generic and like they were just scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas.

Mmhmm. If it was actually, like, "You are an ancient mythical dragon (or similar). You are not, and have never been, human, you've just crammed yourself into this human guise because you like not getting murdered by fighter jets" that might be interesting and new territory, instead we just got Abuse Elementals.

Covok posted:

It's an idea that gets worse when put into any modern society. In some extremely ancient world that predates the earliest civilizations, then the existence of monsters to teach and remind people about the dangers of the world could make sense, if their punishments were lowered or at least made less abhorrent. But, in a modern society with education systems, written languages, the internet, and other such oddities, monsters to teach people about the dangers of the world is arguably redundant and, with how it seems to be implemented, malicious.

One could argue -- coming from someone who never read the book -- that the game line might not be as terrible if monsters weren't played up as objectively good and right or if them being played up as objectivity good and right was done as some play on Gnosticism and at attempt at cosmic horror.

There's another possible interpretation that wouldn't be poo poo. "You are the thing that goes bump in the night, to remind people that there's nasty poo poo out there, etc. Unfortunately, you are not actually relevant in the modern world anymore. Humanity has shined light into a lot of the dark corners you were warning people away from and executed what they found there. But you are still compelled to perform your function."

# ¿ Apr 10, 2016 06:20

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

The Lord of Hats posted:

At a very basic level, I kind of like the idea of getting to be one of the big horrible monster dudes. Something about playing a character who is, at least in some small way, a kraken, sounds neat.

I'm in favor of more of a "You are not, and never were, a human. You are just wearing a cheap human disguise, you weren't born a human and remembered it later or anything."

Why are you, a Kraken, wearing a cheap human disguise? gently caress it, you like doritos. It's very difficult to purchase and eat doritos as a giant squid-monster. Also you like not being attacked with torpedoes and depth charges.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 13:15

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Night10194 posted:

Hero Raising Simulator 2016 would also be a good concept, yes. But then, I've always liked villains who are mostly just punching the clock and keeping their theme park dungeon.

Theme park dungeon you say?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 14:19

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Night10194 posted:

It was the second one.

I recall there being several "Oh yeah well this is what your magic is REALLY doing huh what do you think about that" type things as well.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2016 04:25

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Kavak posted:

Ah, I read that adventure (Do more of those, I want Wickhate) and assumed it was doing the "courtly politics and duels" side of things. Didn't know it was that inaccurate.

One of the things L5R does, as I recall, is poo poo on ronin mechanically and otherwise at every opportunity.

Meanwhile in reality traveling all over the place and getting into swordfights with lots of different people who fight differently is the way to be the best swordfighter. Pretty sure Miyamoto Mushashi was a ronin for example.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2016 05:06

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Kai Tave posted:

Also the game is called 7th Sea.

Doesn't it also have rules for ships of the type that there's no reason for the inhabitants of the world to have ever developed, too? What you want out of a ship that never has to get far from a coastline to get anywhere it wants to go are quite different from one that needs to cross the Atlantic ocean without making a pitstop.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2016 06:05

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I'm not at all surprised. Maybe it's because I've known a number of John Wicks, but being charismatic and engaging and being a control nut aren't mutually exclusive. I don't think reading through Play Dirty gives an accurate picture of John Wick as a GM, either. Point is: don't trust John Wick writing about John Wick, folks.

Of course what he does present as good about himself and his GMing in Play Dirty are fairly worrying even if they're not accurate accounts.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2016 03:09

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Adnachiel posted:

[*]Normal: �Yeah, I�m wicked. But you�re wicked too.� Normals think the entire world is full of assholes that are out to get them and that they need to harm them first. Honestly, kind of a valid mindset to have in this setting.

"Is it really paranoia if they actually are out to get you?"

# ¿ Apr 14, 2016 10:00

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

You've got the "They say children can see monsters. " one in there twice, with different reactions each time.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2016 01:21

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Cythereal posted:

I also get the feeling all one-liners about Hunters would have been "lol hunters."

I'd bet on "unintentionally comic failure to understand the Hunter's point of view".

# ¿ Apr 24, 2016 14:19

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Doresh posted:

This is also the Bella Magum problem again. How the hell do you write an RPG about your (more or less radical) agenda and end up with something that justifies the other side? How does that even happen?

In Bellum Maga's case it's because the agenda is actually camouflage for the fetish material.

In Beast's case, I suspect it's because they spilled a lot of revenge fantasy in by accident and the thing curdled and they're refusing to recognize that they have in fact made something entirely opposed to their point.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2016 17:21

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Cythereal posted:

Doesn't that also really make Heroes the good guys? Good job, Beasts, you've toughened humanity up. To the point that they're killing you.

The only lesson that Beasts seem to consistently teach people is "Beasts need to be killed".

Which, to be fair, is an accurate lesson.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2016 19:59

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Roland Jones posted:

You can literally sell all the awful parts of your life to a Demon, which is a sort of self-improvement, though not quite the one intended here.

And the Demon will happily take it because Cover is Cover. Hell if what you want to make disappear is that time you killed somebody the Demon is probably ecstatic to get it because a Cover that doesn't get frayed when you kill people in it is incredibly useful when you're basically living in Burn Notice.

(Not that you'd be able to tell, Demons have the best poker face possible.)

# ¿ Apr 29, 2016 07:40

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

What's making an action have the Rote thing do?

# ¿ May 8, 2016 13:50

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Kavak posted:

TORG seems to be the absolute pinnacle of both of these- nothing loving works but it doesn't matter because the players can't affect any of the situations presented to them in the books.

Except when the players are expected to make a series of rolls that are much, much harder than the adventure seems to think they are.

# ¿ May 12, 2016 04:08

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Evil Mastermind posted:

Pretty much. That combined with the railroading and inbuilt adventure assumption that the PCs are going to always figure out the clues and always win the fights leads to a lot of bizarre situations.

In War's End (the last book in the Torg line), there's a combat that has literally 100 gospog, which is immediately followed by one with literally two hundred werewolf NPCs, which is immediately followed by one with about fifty technodemons. And remember, this is Torg. No mook rules; every one of these guys have full stat blocks and you're expected to track all their wounds and shock points.

I am not using "literally" in the exaggeration way there, by the way. The first fight is 72 first-planting gospog and 18 third-planting, with a fifth-planting one per PC; the second fight has "Dire Wolves (200)".

I was thinking of the core book adventure where you have a strictly limited timeframe to A: get to, B: draw the right cards to, and C: make your rolls to turn off the doomsday device.

Oh and the PCs won't know this and are attacked by undead pirates when they set foot on the thing the doomsday device is in.

"Glad" to see they don't let up on that bullshit.

# ¿ May 12, 2016 16:27

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Evil Mastermind posted:

Funnily enough, that's one of the few times they told the GM what would happen if the PCs failed.

Of course, what would happen was that the Earth's rotation would stop, everyone'd be dead within three months, and you started the campaign over from scratch.

Yeah, but they obviously didn't expect it to be the by far most likely outcome of the adventure.

Halloween Jack posted:

The funny thing is, while this is partly to encourage you to give your PC skills that ground them in the setting, like Elven Wines, Bushido Philosophy, and Combat Biking Fandom, you have every incentive to put the points in skills like Corporate Security Procedures and Smuggler Havens instead.

Also, figuring out how much your GM is going to care about languages and taking just enough to deal with that.

# ¿ May 12, 2016 18:11

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Kai Tave posted:

And I know that Shadowrun 4E's premade characters were also impossible to legally recreate because they had been made using an early version of the chargen system that had since changed and they hadn't been changed to match. So the Street Samurai pregen for example had more cyberware than a starting character could afford, stuff like that.

I think that was Shadowrun 5e, where the street sam appeared to have bought his cyberware at prices closer to those in 4e, which were waaaaay cheaper.

# ¿ May 12, 2016 20:46

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Man, the Arcanum are so much more interesting than the oMage Spheres. I don't think oMage Prime was useful for much of anything other than messing with other spells or Quintessence but new Prime has a bunch of cool effects you can use without involving any other Arcanum.

Just to pick the most dramatic example.

# ¿ May 14, 2016 01:44

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Daeren posted:

Yeah, one of the arguments I saw was that someone could kill you without you being able to do anything by murdering your ancestors, but I'm fairly sure that'd make a screamingly obvious Time anomaly around you and literally everything you own, so the plot hook of "someone is trying to murder your grandpa, you have [x] time to stop it" is actually one I am glad can exist.

And like, yeah, you can do that to Sleepers or other supernatural entities, but I'm fairly sure murdering someone's ancestor is going to have Unforeseen Consequences for you if the ST has half a brain.

It is a seems like it'd be a problem if nobody in the PC group has Time though.

# ¿ May 15, 2016 13:06

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Covok posted:

I get why people are uncomfortable and all that, but, as a bi mixed raced non-binary individual, I just want to say that calling for violence (which is what I assume the Black Crusade is)

I think Black Crusade is refrring to the Fantasy Flight Games RPG with that title, where you play forces of Chaos in the Warhammer 40k setting.

Which, uh, does involve a shitload of violence but so does doing almost anything in that shithole galaxy.

# ¿ May 17, 2016 00:44

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Evil Mastermind posted:

But when your immediate next subheading after that text I quoted above is:

...then I think you may not really "get" the kind of horror you're doing.

huh?

# ¿ May 23, 2016 21:49

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Evil Mastermind posted:

I honestly cannot understand Beast.

I'm not saying that as a joke or anything, I'm just utterly baffled by the whole thing. Like, I don't get what the point of any of it is.

Somebody left their carton of revenge fantasy out on the counter overnight and it went rancid.

EDIT: Or maybe a bottle of raw milk is a better base for the analogy, it wasn't a good idea in the first place and then it went really bad.

# ¿ May 24, 2016 23:11

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 02:39

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Nessus posted:

I have legit thought a lot about what kind of system you would use to represent Jojo's Stand Adventure Time. It is hard because Stands are both in no way balanced against each other, but also explicitly are not necessarily "stronger" or "weaker" in any kind of obvious way. I feel like some kind of PBTA could be done for it, with perhaps advances involving more involved specification on the tricks of your Stand.

Once it hits part 4, Stand fights become pretty much strange puzzles where the difficulty is in figuring out how the enemy's stand works and how to counter it using the Stand powers available to your group. The JoJo du jour usually has a stand which will probably win in a direct punch fight but those (past part 3) almost never happen.

Getting this right would be... very hard, particularly in a mechanically satisfying way.

# ¿ May 25, 2016 00:34

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