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AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Man. I'm someone overly-invested in oWoD stuff (I just had a friend over; he said my basement looks like a game store). I'll admit Mage was never my favorite, but this M20 poo poo is inexcusable. Like, it would be bad enough in a vacuum, as a Revised-Revised edition of Mage, but it's following on the heels of two product lines that are legitimately good distillations of Vampire and Werewolf, expanded and cleaned up and adapted for modern gamers.

How do you gently caress things up this badly? I want more behind-the-scenes tell-alls, anything that would explain and excuse...this. Lie to me, if you have to.

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AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Fatal & Friends 2016: My new life goal is to smack Brucato over the head with a rolled-up newspaper

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Didn't Revised also have a general "the magical brainwashing and implants aren't working the way they used to, so we're having to be less Disney Evil"? I know it was a minor note in some of Hunter and the later "XX of the East" books, anyway.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


LatwPIAT posted:

Degrees of Success
  • 1 Marginal (finding a useful TV Tropes entry)
  • 2 Moderate (getting someone's cell-phone number)
  • 3 Complete (delighting your new playmate with a fresh-cooked breakfast)
  • 4 Exceptional (selling five books to someone who'd come looking for one)
  • 5 Phenomenal (writing the 500,000-word anniversary edition of a series you helped create 20 years ago) :jerkbag:
I can't get over how terrible this list is. :psyduck: "Finding a useful :tvtropes: entry" even being on there is as shameful as the "Writing a revolutionary new RPG :smuggo:" entries in games that came out thirty years ago and were groan-worthy then, and it's not even a good example because it should either be "don't bother rolling, you're just using Google for gently caress's sake" or require more than one success because of their cutesy names for everything that require you to speak some dumbass :tvtropes: cant.

Then #2 and #3 together just comes across as Brucato trying for a creepy as hell humble-brag. "Finding a new winsome lass to share my bed? Why, that's easier than making scrambled eggs (which you'll note I already said was Difficulty 4*)."

And the examples for #5...uggghhhh. gently caress you, Brucato, that poo poo was tired in the 80s. You didn't even do it right, that's supposed to be the example for "Nearly Impossible" and it'd go under "Difficulty 10", or require 10 successes or something. You didn't even add in a note about the quality of your writing in between sessions of jerking yourself off, so I can't make a joke about how you clearly didn't get enough successes to do a good job. :argh:

*Way to double-up on examples and still manage to gently caress up the rules, jackass. Is making breakfast "Easy" (Diff 4, one success) or "Complete" (diff ??, 3 successes)?

Cthulhu Dreams posted:

Why do people have these pointlessly complex dice pool mechanics when most people (including myself) cannot accurately tell you how much harder it is to get two successes with 7 dice against TN 6 vs TN 7. If the GM can't work that out then he doesn't know what he is doing when he sets the difficulty.
It's worth pointing out that some of the staff at WW had realized it was smarter to just standardize the TNs and make "number of successes" the important bit all the way back in 1997, with Ćon/Trinity. Naturally, it didn't really catch on with the rest of the staff until the early 2000s.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Doresh posted:


You see, the Ouroboros Syndrome is heavily tied to the Anima Regium, those Renegade Beings who possess and occasionly turn you into Slendergjaum.
Isn't that whole "Slendergjaum" thing more of an overt reference to Bleach? Like, I've only seen three or four scattered episodes, but I remember seeing dudes (evil twins?) that look like Hot Topic barfed up a mime.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I feel like that one is the absolute worst of the 1e adventures, and they basically ignored it from that point on; even though 1e/2e writing was metaplotty as all hell and constantly made references to events that happened in adventures (usually with an assumed railroad and ending, despite a lot of the adventures having pretty loose/multiple outcomes), the only thing I remember seeing mentioned ever again was Yoroshiku.

Which brings me to my other L5R 1e adventure complaint...the names. 1e wasn't great about it, but this adventure is real bad about names that aren't just "not names", but go full-on "words barely related to the person, that would never be names, that also show up in Japanese 101 vocab lists". I made fun of it when I ran L5R by giving all of my Unicorn NPCs super dumb names, mostly food puns.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


The whole Mage thing has made me think of Full Metal Alchemist, or at least my memories of it from watching when it first came out. It's got the "paradigm" thing too, in that everyone but the main character does magic with elaborate magic circles drawn in chalk or embroidered into gloves or whatever, while the main character has done a classical "sacrifice the physical body for enlightenment" sort of ritual and understands holy poo poo if you clasp your hands together it makes a circle whooooa.

In the show, it's presented as "look at this genius who is the best alchemist ever." I'm sure if Brucato was writing, he'd present it as "psh, look at all these sheeple who just don't get it like I do, they're such losers :rolleyes:."

It's, just...Brucato has created a thing that is a counter-example of itself. "Presentation and trappings don't matter", says the book that alienates and antagonizes its audience.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


SirPhoebos posted:

I was reading through the F&F archive and I saw that Phil Brucato was going to be doing the Changeling 20th Anniversary book. Has that been released yet?

Aww, man. I kind of liked Changeling (despite everything). Did no one learn from M20?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


It's not like I was into the SCA/Otherkin bullshit parts of the game, I mainly liked the edge cases. Weirdo poo poo in the Deep Dreaming, the "everyone (rightly) hates the sidhe" bits the writers started to clue into near the end of the line, the Redcap book. There was some promising material there, not that you'd know it from the line's fans.

[Edit:] You know, on a little more contemplation, I realized I'm mainly into the sub-splats that want to murder/eat the "core" Changeling characters and destroy their society. Make of that what you will.

AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 21:42 on May 2, 2016

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


"Trolls consider all women repulsive" has been borne out as true on the internet, so F.A.T.A.L. gets at least one thing right.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Brucato really should have the same level of prominence and professional respect as Chris Fields. Who at WW/OP has such a boner for hiring him?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


No thought given whatsoever to where starting PCs are supposed to fit into the creator's intricately-defined world, or what they're possibly supposed to do? Can also double as 80s RPG if you add the caveat "what are starting PCs supposed to do that God-NPCs wouldn't have already taken care of".

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Legend of the Five Rings had "Tropical Fish", a skill solely for the caretaking of exotic fish. Rifts had "Sea Holistic Medicine". Vampire: the Masquerade had "Pottery". Pottery! It was definitely a thing for any '90s game with a decent supplement train.
I ran an L5R game once where all the characters were dedicated to loving around with the "useless" skills. One was a Scorpion using some merits that made him better at Honor-losing skills to become an expert in Dancing (Peasant) and settled duels with dance-offs. The best was a Dragon created with some combo of merits, Schools, and starting Dojo that either used his Tropical Fish skill as his attack roll or added it to every attack roll, I can't remember which. He came up with fish-pun based names for all the stances. :3:

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I remember actually liking (and running) the adventure in that GM Pack, albeit in a wildly-expanded form that ended with the some of the PCs joining/taking over the nearly-destroyed minor clan. Which I remember the pack giving the impression was, like, a half-dozen people at most.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Right now (1e), though, the Unicorn are just nebulously "foreign"; IIRC they lean more towards German of all things, with NPCs named "Marta" and zweihanders and such.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


The Crab also fall into the same Lion trap of "sure you're stronger militarily than the other clans, but your social ineptness means that the Crane just had the Emperor himself call for your immediate retreat and seppuku and also a bunch of other concessions".

Is anyone going to address that totally-not-gross-and-sexist pic of Hida O-Ushi that was every L5R magazine ad I ever remember seeing? The one where her biggest "muscle" appears to be sideboob/underboob/overboob?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Alien Rope Burn posted:

This is probably the one you're thinking of, her Experienced 2 version in the CCG. I don't think it was used in the RPG, though.



Usually she was depicted fully armored, though.
Definitely remember it worse than that, I think after a quick GIS it was this pic*:

with the sort of cringey misogynerd attract text you'd expect from an ad in InQuest or Dragon or wherever I kept seeing it.

*maybe an extended version? I definitely remember an implication she was only wearing a breastplate, although maybe that was in-text

Night10194 posted:

It sounds like multiple clans being major line staff's special babies was a serious problem for L5R.
I remember hearing this as the explanation for why PHOENIX DID NOTHING WRONG was the metaplot through 3e/4e.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


For fun, compare the things a Doji Courtier can just sling around as "favors" for free to the things a Yasuki Merchant can source but has to roll for at the same rank. Then remember that Yasuki don't get any other school abilities and get poo poo on in-universe and rules-wise for being dishonorable merchant scum! Game balance or something, am I right? :v:

Mors Rattus posted:

I kinda wish the magic art powers had lasted beyond this. And been generalized to every clan.
The 2E version of the Artisan school at least had the most :black101: explanation for why the mechanics changed. "They all died. No, I mean it, almost every sensei and student of the old Artisan school died in the war, the reason the School works different now is because they had to completely start over."

AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Aug 27, 2016

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Night10194 posted:

I don't think anyone actually likes the Scorpion in any capacity, do they?
I have friends that really like the Scorpion. And Libertarianism. And fedoras. And Men's Rights.

...gently caress, I really need to rethink my life.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Night10194 posted:

Same person, all related?
I used the plural because I meant the plural. :sigh:

I'm sure at least one of them has opinions about Ethics in Games Journalism, which is why I have been sure to never bring it up ever.

(If we're going into "best clan chat", then as perennial GM I chose the Spider/Shadowlands mon for my 4e corebook.)

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Kavak posted:

Are any of them named John Wick?
Funny enough, one of them insisted on having Yojiro as an Ally last time I ran a campaign, without knowing he was Wick's baby.

And Mors, they're old gaming friends who I only interact with on Facebook now, but I have been tempted.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Simian_Prime posted:

I feel like we get constant hints of other threats (horde of not-Mongols, traders from not-Europe), but they never get much detail?
Welcome to L5R, yeah. By the end of 2e they were having to clarify that yes, we know these new sketchy accounts of weirdo foreigners and shadow monsters don't square with any of the other books or even make sense geographically, but this account is from YOUR nth-great grandfather and that account was from HIS nth-great grandmother and are you calling them liars? HMM?

Then they were finally all "gently caress it, we'll kinda put out an Ivory Kingdoms boxset, but still keep things sketchy and make it after the fun stuff's already happened*" for 4e.

*and it was amazing, I know, don't get me wrong

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Mors Rattus posted:

4e also presents the 'child abuse' thing as rumors other clans tell but which aren't accurate for 90% of the Lion.

Emerald Empire is a good book.
I remember one of the writers as early as 2e talking about how "no, that's retarded, the Lion wouldn't kill off 90% of their children before their gempukku when their armies need soldiers" and taking the piss in some fiction where we got to "see" a prospective Lion go through the gempukku ceremonies, getting a pass through VERY creative interpretation of the conditions.

And, especially in 1e, the whole thing of "the Clans go to war all the time for dumb reasons" makes even more sense than it does later; they each have their own reasons, on top of the general reason of "an idle warrior class stifling under an impossible code of honor" thing. Like...the Lion take their "stewards of the Emperor" thing super seriously, and are OBVIOUSLY the most honorable and strong and would do a better job looking after their neighbor's lands which belong to the Emperor anyway in the long run, and our armies need the practice and farmland besides. Meanwhile the Crab keep getting shut down in the courts for being dirty and gross and bringing up taboo subjects, and decide "gently caress it, we'll just take what we need, for the good of the empire" and invade the Crane again. Et cetera, et cetera.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I found the official writer piss-take I was thinking of earlier; it was from "Hidden Chicken", Rich Wulf's L5R "Hidden Emperor" era parody thing.

quote:

"Wait just a second..." I said, rubbing my head. "I've got a gempukku ceremony tomorrow! I have to study!"

"Eh, don't worry about it," Turi said. "It's just a Matsu gempukku. They're easy."

"What do I have to do?" I asked.

Turi thought a moment. "Well, first you have to recite Akodo's Leadership from memory. Cake. Then you have to wield twenty weapons of war. Simple. Then you have to cut a pomegranate in four pieces before it hits the ground. Kid's stuff. Then they hit you four hundred times with a stick and you have to just sit there and stay awake. Easy. Then you have to fast three days in a room full of food. No prob. Oh, then they brand you."

"Nice knowing you, Garou," Sanzo clapped me on the shoulder.

"That's ridiculous!" I said. "What happens if I fail any of that?"

"You die," Turi said.

"Wait, that doesn't make sense," Toku said. "The Matsu are the largest samurai family in the Empire. How can they have such a difficult gempukku and still be so big?"
It goes on from there:

quote:

Soon it was the next morning. We gathered before Kyuden Matsu among the various members of the Lion Clan. I wasn't the only one to be receiving my gempukku ceremony that day. Matsu Bufu, Ketsui's little brother, was there too. He was a large, rather dim looking samurai. At the beginning of the ceremony he showed Okura a grin with about four teeth.

"I hope me pass," he rumbled.

"Er... good luck," Okura whimpered, shying back from the large man.

"Recite Akodo's Leadership," Okura said in a deep voice, and the crowd grew silent.

I whispered a spell under my breath, releasing a current of air spirits at Okura's mind. He was reciting the whole book in his head, ready to call me if I messed up. I just read it out of his mind.

"And you, Bufu," Okura said. "Recite Akodo's Leadership."

"Lions good!" the boy announced, and a thread of drool hung from his lip.

Okura glanced around uncomfortably. "Er, yes," he said. "Yes, that's right. Next test."

The twenty weapons of war was the easy part. Turi pointed out a quick loophole there for me. You had to wield twenty weapons, but you didn't have to wield them *well*. Luckily, growing up on the Kaiu wall I actually knew quite a few of the weapons. Bufu, on the other hand. Well... they let him count the weapons. He only managed to count four, but Okura said that was close enough and we moved on.

The trainer hurled the pomegranate into the air. I whispered a brief spell and an obliging air spirit appeared, invisibly holding the fruit long enough to cut it. Okura sneered and reluctantly nodded.

The trainer hurled another pomegranate. Bufu screamed and cut the trainer into four pieces. It wasn't the result they wanted, but it was pretty creative so they went with it.

The next part was pretty hard. I didn't have a spell that would last long enough to defend me from four hundred blows from a bamboo stick. Luckily, Sanzo had a bottle of sake. I drank it down as quick as my body would physically let me, and that seemed to do the trick. The trainer laid the bamboo into me and I stumbled off with a grin, sore all over but not feeling a thing.

The first time the trainer hit Bufu, he drew his sword and cut that guy into four pieces too. Again, they said that was close enough.

The last test was pretty easy. I couldn't move for about three days after the sake and the beating, and Bufu ate all the food in the chamber anyway. The trainer looked like he was about to say something, then he remembered his two predecessors and decided against it.

Ikoma Tsanuri approached the two of us when we were done, a wide smile on her face. "Congratulations," she said. She handed each of us a katana worked in gold and brown. "Matsu Garou. Matsu Bufu. You are now Lions."

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

You had to make a deal with an "angel" or demon so GM fiat was a huge part of it. It was almost like they were saying, "Dumbass, why are you playing this game? This is what you get for thinking you could rise to relative mediocrity. Now go play a good game like Kindred of the East"
It's actually the exact opposite of that (other than the level of power involved); the angel/demon powers were completely different. The level five powers in the Core book were the ones you got from a combo of GM fiat, multiple derangements, and "breaking free" of the limiters put on your powers by The Messengers (to the tune of 5 permanent Willpower IIRC).

No, the rules for this weren't in the core book. They were in a splat that was (I think) one of the last released for the line, because of course.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


The art for the first couple of Hunter books was also...I heard people try to defend it as "Rubenesque" but it's more properly classed as "straight-up fetish art". :ohdear:

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


JackMann posted:

My great, great, great grandfather, Sheriff Evelyn Belzar Armstrong (I am not making that name up), was partly responsible for Harry Longabaugh, the Sundance Kid, becoming an outlaw. He and his deputy, James Swisher, went to arrest a friend of Longabaugh's, Buck Hanby. Hanby reached for his gun and was shot. Swisher was afraid of retaliation from Longabaugh and swore out a complaint. Longabaugh was apparently arrested, but escaped, becoming an outlaw.
History makes for some drat fine character backgrounds, doesn't it?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Selachian posted:

extruded swords-n-sorcery product
Thank you for this phrase, I'll be using it forever.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


LeSquide posted:

I'm now on a huge Demon Lord kick and I think I want to run a game soon; what supplements besides the Companion are good? Is the Hell/Devil boom decent? I'm aware of the shocking setting twist.
Shocking twist?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I mainly just skim the Rifts writeups for art, and I have to say this book is doing great on that front.

This...this is just a Zerg Hydralisk, right? Am I crazy?

I love this little guy and am now disappointed I traded my GM hat to another player for the time being and don't get to use him somehow.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Wapole Languray posted:

[*]The Child Weakness is the only weakness child characters start with by default. Child gives y ou a -3 to all Strength tests and Damage (to a minimum of 1), has fewer default Stamina (16 for Long Man, 20 for Bear Man), and a -2 penalty to all Knowledge tests.
Wait, I get how simplifying the number of traits you have to keep track of and "leveling up" to regular strength in-game makes sense as child-friendly introductory rules, but how is slapping a bunch of numerical penalties on everything supposed to be "introductory"? I get that it's more "realistic", but who cares about that when the point was to simplify the game for kids?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Joe Slowboat posted:

There's a difference between 'subtext' and 'you will literally get two different settings if you read this text assuming the author is trying to help you understand the setting, or trying to trick you.'
Late to the convo, but it's also important to remember from an RPG perspective that you are almost assured to be looking at a multiple author situation, and as the line goes on you're going to have trouble if incoming authors don't catch all the lines they're supposed to read askance. This can be as basic as a GW "what do you mean the Imperium aren't good guys?" to an example from L5R that I swear I'm the only one that noticed (one of the Minor Clan families was founded by a mystery man who caught a notorious serial killer; the initial fiction HEAVILY implied he was actually the serial killer and framed some rando, which every book afterwards missed or glosses over).

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Cooked Auto posted:

Last I heard it they were trying to get CTech 2.0 beta tested but how that went I haven't gotten the foggiest.
They just gave some kind of big presentation at a con, but all the details are filtering in from people who were there taking notes instead of any "official" word from the devs themselves. Which is...not encouraging, given their community outreach. AFAIR: the official forums are dead, the site hasn't updated in who-knows-how-long, their subreddit has code that makes it unreadable without a specific plugin and is still abandoned anyway; the only communication I've seen is the occasional promise that updates are coming soon on their Facebook page.

AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 13, 2017

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


At least in 1e the bonus was actually +2; the +1 bonus was for Nazzadi with too many sick glow-in-the-dark tribal tats which still gave you a bonus rather than penalty somehow??

Also the core book said Nazzadi didn't bother with camo because their mechs were too fast

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


LatwPIAT posted:

the beta focused on the Tagers and Dhoanoids, which I think is the least interesting part of the setting.
Counterpoint: guyver suits are rad, and for all the "guys stop you are having fun WRONG" that the books were full of, one of the basic Tager options was still literally a Laser Shark (that evolved into a Laser Squark)

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Nessus posted:

This was however less annoying than the round of CthulhuTech, in which we were so heavily informed about the power of the cops that we super-stealthed while half the team ate chicken wings in a dockside bar.
...what?

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

Has any RPG company ever sold DLC-like cards with extra rules?
I remember just jokes from KODT.
The best example I can think of is the one used by Pathfinder's Organized Play. You get cards from going to conventions (and/or?) running Organized Play games that, depending on the card, you can trade in for anything from minor effects like bonus equipment up to being allowed to make a banned/restricted splat as your next character. They found a way to do the equivalent of on-disc DLC with an expiration date!

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


Alien Rope Burn posted:

I'm pretty familiar with the Scorpion's OOC history. I got into Legend of the Five Rings around the time of the Shadowlands CCG set. My first deck was a Scorpion deck.

A lot of the Scorpion material, in my opinion, is "tell, don't show". We're told Scorpions have done a lot of important stuff, but rarely are the actual events demonstrated, and often it's kept vague and indistinct. Which may make sense from a in-setting perspective, from an out-of-setting perspective it doesn't do a lot to demonstrate why the Scorpion are necessary. I mean, sure, they might have stopped the Crab from marching on the Crane with mysterious stabs, trust them, they somehow always know the right murders to do - but an Imperial decree can do that, too.

That's not to say you can't rewrite them to be better, mind, but too often they were just written as smug, self-promoting ciphers from my experience. If any part of L5R has been stuck in Wick's shadow, it's the Scorpion.
Some of the later material treated this a lot better IIRC; the highest ranking Scorpions were all up their rear end about being The Emperor's Underhand, and Doing What Must Be Done, but low-ranking Scorpions usually knew gently caress-all about what they were doing or why. So the vast majority of the clan is just doing dishonorable poo poo and blackmailing everyone they can, working at cross-purposes half the time, and usually just working towards something like the ending of Burn After Reading.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I’ve been skimming the Kidworld stuff after the first couple posts because it’s so aggressively unpleasant, but does it ever address people who were blind before the plague hit? They’d be much better adapted, after all.

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AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


I love this thread.

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