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«104 »
Which non-Power of the Daleks story would you like to see an episode found from?
This poll is closed.
Marco Polo 36 20.69%
The Myth Makers 10 5.75%
The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve 45 25.86%
The Savages 2 1.15%
The Smugglers 2 1.15%
The Highlanders 45 25.86%
The Macra Terror 21 12.07%
Fury from the Deep 13 7.47%
Total: 174 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

  • Locked thread
Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011



Trin Tragula posted:

It gets a pass under the Web Planet Clause.

edit: Babelcolour, the best maker of fanvideos anywhere, is giving up. This is apparently the end.


Now excuse me while I clear out some hard drive space to archive that channel

He also did the official color restoration for a couple of the DVDs didn't he?

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DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

Big Mean Jerk posted:

It's an ok speech, but it feels so cheap when you look at the two-parter as a whole. It's all one big messy lead-up to The Doctor making yet another heroic speech.
I think it works. I'll take an excuse to have Capaldi giving a heartfelt speech about war and peace over the lead ups to Eleven's bluffs-turned-speeches any day of the week (and I like Eleven quite a bit).

Also, Twelve refusing to let the Zygons (or any participants) pawn off responsibility (i.e. not taking it all on himself and feeling guilty for no reason) was refreshing.

Zygella: This is wrong.
Doctor: No it's not.
Zygella: You are responsible for all of the violence, all of the suffering.
Doctor: No I'm not.
Zygella: Yes.
Doctor: No.
Zygella: Yes, you engineered this situation, Doctor. This is your fault.
Doctor: No it's not! It's your fault!
Zygella: I have to do what I've done.
Doctor: [Shrugging] So did I.
Zygella: We've been treated like cattle.
Doctor: So what?
Zygella: We've been left to fend for ourselves.
Doctor: So's everyone.
Zygella: It's not fair.
Doctor: 'Ohhhh it's not fair.' Oh! I didn't realize that, that it's not 'fair'!

Edit: yeah, just re-watched most of it. It's good. Haters are wrong. It's one of the few speeches where the idea that the Doctor has been around for 2,000 years and has seen a gazillion wars and to him it's all the same tired crap (so here we're doing this scale model microcosm scenario I've engineered and cutting through the bullshit for once), actually comes through. Admittedly, I think I like the dialogue more than any parts of the speechifying. The reference to the Time War is sort of eh, but the small moments make up for it, like when Kate closes the box, him saying, "Thank you, thank you," "I'm sorry," "I know, I know, thank you," is really well done and rings true to his character. He has nothing but disdain for war and the rhetoric of it, but also can appreciate that choosing not to go down that road is difficult and he can appreciate each instance of that not happening. The twists and what makes the Osgood box the Osgood box is totally beside the point.

DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at Jan 21, 2016 around 19:57

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor


pgroce posted:

And we go from Liz—who gets quite a lot of opportunity to demonstrate competence that makes her worthy of standing onscreen next to the super smart alien headliner—to Jo, who, despite a promising backstory, is ultimately written like most every other female companion before her. Even when they tried to shake up the female companion dynamic, I don't think they did quite so well as Liz until Mary Tamm came along.











MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


DirtyRobot posted:

Doctor: 'Ohhhh it's not fair.' Oh! I didn't realize that, that it's not 'fair'!

Edit: yeah, just re-watched most of it. It's good. Haters are wrong.

Nope, it's only good if you think that sociopolitical/economic factors don't cause terrorism which is just empirically incorrect.

It's a terrible piece of political analysis performed well.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

How does it taste?

Dinosaur Gum

Gaz-L posted:

Wait, did Tennant and Eccleston have different arrangements? I know Smith and Capaldi do.

Starting midway through Tennant's run (I think it premiered with Voyage of the Damned) he got a version with a lot more emphasis on the guitar.

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Nope, it's only good if you think that sociopolitical/economic factors don't cause terrorism which is just empirically incorrect.

It's a terrible piece of political analysis performed well.

I don't think the speech itself, or the dialogue in that scene, implies that. Its aim is not the erasure of those sociopolitical/economic factors, but to take the piss out of the rhetoric that ends up surrounding them.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


DirtyRobot posted:

I don't think the speech itself, or the dialogue in that scene, implies that. Its aim is not the erasure of those sociopolitical/economic factors, but to take the piss out of the rhetoric that ends up surrounding them.

The Doctor explicitly says that they're acting like children because life isn't fair, which is either incredibly hypocritical or more fundamentally a rejection of the character's core morality. If the Doctor arrived in Truth Or Consequences just after the first Zygon was killed by humans and the rest of the story is about him trying to help the Zygons to be allowed to live more freely that would be a completely bog standard story premise (eg The Daleks, The Krotons, The Mutants, State of Decay, Frontios, Vengeance on Varos, The Happiness Patrol).

UNIT's (and the other Zygons') role is whitewashed, both in-universe and in a textual analysis kind of way, the latter by having Kate being the first one to back down. Having Sexy Zygon be the first one to back down would have been a much better conclusion to the episode imo, and would have backed up the "everyone apart from Sexy Zygon gets their memories erased" ending much more strongly. It wouldn't have erased the fundamentally sinister (sub)text of the first episode but it would have been something superior to what we got at least.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



Original MURRAY GOOOOOOOOOOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOrelNQKxcw

Eccleston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRE1aOogdPI and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwccn3cq6Ug Note no middle 8 in the closing theme

Tennant 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3hSsVIf61o Very similar except the middle 8 is back and the orchestral sounds are better because they're from an actual orchestra this time

Tennant 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34Por_fqQU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya3n0sIT-6Q There's a big guitar on the low end, some much stronger strings from the orchestra, and the Delia Derbyshire elements get squashed right down, because MURRAY GOOOOOOOOOOLD knows not of this "restraint" of which you speak

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


In spite of not being terribly keen on his incidental music, I remain very enthusiastic about Keff McCulloch's version of the theme. You know, with the swirly purple nebula? I think it's because the first Doctor Who story I saw was "Remembrance of the Daleks".

egon_beeblebrox
Feb 29, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



Davros1 posted:

Season 6B no longer exists due to BF's Early Adventure "The Black Hole". Please adjust your wikis appropriately.

How does it wipe out season 6B?

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The Doctor explicitly says that they're acting like children because life isn't fair, which is either incredibly hypocritical or more fundamentally a rejection of the character's core morality. If the Doctor arrived in Truth Or Consequences just after the first Zygon was killed by humans and the rest of the story is about him trying to help the Zygons to be allowed to live more freely that would be a completely bog standard story premise (eg The Daleks, The Krotons, The Mutants, State of Decay, Frontios, Vengeance on Varos, The Happiness Patrol).

UNIT's (and the other Zygons') role is whitewashed, both in-universe and in a textual analysis kind of way, the latter by having Kate being the first one to back down. Having Sexy Zygon be the first one to back down would have been a much better conclusion to the episode imo, and would have backed up the "everyone apart from Sexy Zygon gets their memories erased" ending much more strongly. It wouldn't have erased the fundamentally sinister (sub)text of the first episode but it would have been something superior to what we got at least.

The doctor's comparison to them acting like children isn't actually a condemnation or dismissal of their grievances, just of their response. That's the point of him referring to all sorts of stupidly minor annoyances in his life like his Tardis not working and him not having a personal tailor, which Zygella points out are obviously not the same as her grievances at all. The Doctor knows that. It's a completely absurd comparison. He's not saying that the Zygons putting up with cruelty is the same as not having a personal tailor; their only connection is, "These things have happened, they are facts." Yeah, one is way out of proportion to the other, but the correct response to neither of them -- or to any other random fact you want to draw up -- is a planet-wide war or genocide. Pushing the magic war button won't actually solve any of the issues: "You... just want cruelty to beget cruelty; you are not superior to the people who were cruel to you; you're just a bunch of new cruel people." The Zygons' grievances are real -- they did put up with cruelty -- but war/genocide is not a valid response.

I agree with your second paragraph. In my last post I deleted a sentence to the effect that I didn't really like much of what happens after the speech scene. I'm probably okay with Kate shutting things down first -- since she's put up with less poo poo than the Zygons, it's easier to do it in her position-- but her and everyone else being memory-wiped and the lack of change that seems to happen is... far less okay.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

How does it taste?

Dinosaur Gum

Trin Tragula posted:

MURRAY GOOOOOOOOOOLD knows not of this "restraint" of which you speak

Good ol' Murray. He does have a problem with too much bombast...but goddamn I just love his work so much. His "Gallifrey and Gallifrey-related things" theme is amazing.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


DirtyRobot posted:

Yeah, one is way out of proportion to the other, but the correct response to neither of them -- or to any other random fact you want to draw up -- is a planet-wide war or genocide. Pushing the magic war button won't actually solve any of the issues: "You... just want cruelty to beget cruelty; you are not superior to the people who were cruel to you; you're just a bunch of new cruel people." The Zygons' grievances are real -- they did put up with cruelty -- but war/genocide is not a valid response.

Genocide is obviously Taking Things A Little Bit Too Far, but basically all social progress has been achieved through violence or the threat of violence (mainly in real life, but also in Doctor Who), because god knows that the powerful tend not to give up their power willingly. Fundamentally rejecting violence is an inherently conservative and privileged position because it ignores the consequences of systematic violence.

As Mark Twain said,

quote:

"There were two 'Reigns of Terror', if we could but remember and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passions, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon a thousand persons, the other upon a hundred million; but our shudders are all for the "horrors of the... momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty and heartbreak? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief terror that we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror - that unspeakable bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves."

(Three Reigns of Terror if we count serial H)

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


That may be my favourite quote ever apart from the story from Tomb of the Cybermen about Patrick Troughton's penis

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


MrL_JaKiri posted:

That may be my favourite quote ever apart from the story from Tomb of the Cybermen about Patrick Troughton's penis

You realize, I hope, that you just can't leave it at that.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Rochallor posted:

You realize, I hope, that you just can't leave it at that.

I cannot remember for the life of me the source of this (it may be on the Tomb DVD, which I don't own but my former housemate does so I can't check*), but they're filming a scene where Jamie and the Doctor are being held captive in that main area that has the table in the middle of it. The director is trying to set up the shot (Troughton in the background, Hines in the foreground near the table) and he keeps on bringing Hines more and more forward.

Hines gets annoyed at this and announces "I can't go any further, my todger's on the table".

From eight feet away, Troughton: "So's mine."

*My amazon wishlist is:

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Genocide is obviously Taking Things A Little Bit Too Far, but basically all social progress has been achieved through violence or the threat of violence (mainly in real life, but also in Doctor Who), because god knows that the powerful tend not to give up their power willingly. Fundamentally rejecting violence is an inherently conservative and privileged position because it ignores the consequences of systematic violence.

As Mark Twain said,


(Three Reigns of Terror if we count serial H)

Even though the Zygons claim ill-usage, the conflict seems to me less a revolution of the oppressed or an underclass*, and more as two relatively equal powers threatening to go to war yet again, because neither side can just loving forget past conflicts and cruelties. The Zygons have hosed with humanity, and humanity's hosed with the Zygons. This is why in the microcosm of the conflict, both parties have equal access to the buttons, and the shot of the table emphasizes that equality. The doctor's disgust -- and what he explicitly draws reference to -- is with war of the Time Lord vs. Dalek variety, war between two nations, as opposed to an underclass rising up against an oppressor.

(I do take your point. Regarding the French Revolution, it's why I don't like A Tale of Two Cities, as it's a lot of hand-wringing by Dickens that maybe something like that will happen over here, in London, my god.)

* edit: I just checked, and the conflict is explicitly referred to as a revolution by the Zygons (and sarcastically so by the doctor), but I don't think that actually contradicts what I said. The Zygons see it as a revolution because they're on the same soil, and they want it to be Zygon-only soil.

DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at Jan 22, 2016 around 00:23

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

There are lost episodes of course. Stories that were commissioned but never made. Or made but misfiled, post broadcast. Sheer incompetence, of course.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

(Three Reigns of Terror if we count serial Triple H)

I thought this it what is originally said and five of us were about to nod sagely in agreement.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible

egon_beeblebrox posted:

How does it wipe out season 6B?

Posting in spoilers just in case:

The Doctor, Jamie, & Victoria land on a space station on the edge of a black hole. While there they encounter a Time Lord named Constable Pavo and he helps the Doctor stop the station from going into the black hole. But Pavo's TARDIS is incapacitated, so he asks the Doctor to do his original mission for him: stop a scientist named Dastari from using time travel. And while the Doctor and Jamie leave, Victoria stays behind on to study graphology. Of course, this is only at the end of episode two, so at the beginning of episode three when the Doctor and Jamie return from having defeated the Sontarans, the plan to save the station didn't exactly work.

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Nope, it's only good if you think that sociopolitical/economic factors don't cause terrorism which is just empirically incorrect.

It's a terrible piece of political analysis performed well.

The central problem with the story becomes clear once you learn that Moffat declared that the original Zygon/human agreement was in fact the most perfect arrangement possible. Starting with that as a declared truth, Harness actually manages to do a decent job of presenting the revolutionary position as motivated reasonably.

The political principal of the episodes can't be well applied to other agreements which are not, of course, perfect.

One might also note that the original agreement only happened as a result of violence and threatened violence. And that the Doctor brings the chief terrorist to justice by convincing her to preserve the peace, not by killing her. The politics are still problematic, but they're not as bad as first appears.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Narsham posted:

The central problem with the story becomes clear once you learn that Moffat declared that the original Zygon/human agreement was in fact the most perfect arrangement possible. Starting with that as a declared truth, Harness actually manages to do a decent job of presenting the revolutionary position as motivated reasonably.

The political principal of the episodes can't be well applied to other agreements which are not, of course, perfect.

One might also note that the original agreement only happened as a result of violence and threatened violence. And that the Doctor brings the chief terrorist to justice by convincing her to preserve the peace, not by killing her. The politics are still problematic, but they're not as bad as first appears.

"Moffat declared."

No he didn't. Various characters asserted that it was the most perfect agreement (most of those characters being the Doctor, dealing with the moral and philosophical weight of the Time War and, as you said, with mass loss of life immediately on the line).

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


DirtyRobot posted:

Even though the Zygons claim ill-usage, the conflict seems to me less a revolution of the oppressed or an underclass*, and more as two relatively equal powers threatening to go to war yet again

Remember it's only a small subset of the zygons, although the first episode doesn't really get that point across at all.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Happy birthday to the 2nd most recent Doctor, John Hurt!

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.


https://twitter.com/RadioTimes/stat...648872994095104

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!


For those who haven't clicked through, the story confirms that we're only getting a Christmas special this year, Moffat's Series 10 will air in 2017 and Chibnall's Series 11 will air sometime in 2018.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Fuuuuuuuck. No new Who for 2016, Chibnall as showrunner.. Alright, who's been kicking puppies?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Well

gently caress.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Who is Chibnall and why does he make you mad

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Acne Rain posted:

Who is Chibnall and why does he make you mad

Cold Blood Hungry Earth 42 The Magician's Apprentice The Power of Three



(And Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011



Acne Rain posted:

Who is Chibnall and why does he make you mad

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

quote:

Moffat quits


quote:

Chibnall to take over

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Acne Rain posted:

Who is Chibnall and why does he make you mad

He's a hack, and not even the RTD-type "actually a visionary genius who uses hack techniques consciously" kind of way.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Oh no

Oh no

Oh no

I'm sorry Moffat

You don't have to go

Please

painted into a coroner
Oct 25, 2009



I'm going to assume that if Moffat is slated for one more season that Capaldi will follow him out the door.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

I'm actually maybe madder about the scheduling? I don't want to go back into the Big Finish Hole as my only fix.

At least Moffat's got another season so we won't be waiting this long for Chibnall 1.

but god dammit this'll probably be Capaldi's last and I am SO loving FAR AWAY from being ready for him to leave. He just got here and he's loving incredible.

Forktoss
Feb 13, 2012

I'm OK, you're so-so

But at least Capaldi's staying, right?

Right?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Disappointing that there's no new stories this year. I suppose Capaldi's been engaged to go off to America and do some directing for Iannucci on Veep, which I can't imagine will leave him a lot of time for filming.

Moffat's got the new series of Sherlock too, but he's evidently incapable of managing them both at once.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Burkion posted:

Cold Blood Hungry Earth 42 The Magician's Apprentice The Power of Three



(And Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)

I didn't actively dislike or detest those episodes but none of them had anything absolutely rave worthy great.
Except I was one of the few that really liked 42, it was among my favorites of that season.

Anyway we'll just have to hope he directs other writers and the budgets a little better, if he can get some better material out of the standalone episodes then things will be fine. I mean, remember all of Moffat's pre-showrunner episodes were high marks but except for season 5 that didn't make for a better all round show.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!


Cabinet posted:

I'm going to assume that if Moffat is slated for one more season that Capaldi will follow him out the door.

I can't imagine he's staying, no. He's already been making noise about how he didn't expect the filming schedule to be so arduous.

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Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


Chibnail's probably the worst of the three likely possibilities. Whithouse's two-parter this year was wretched but he's been alright in the past, and Gatiss at least seems like he has an eye for talent. Chibnail is just staggeringly mediocre.

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