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Which non-Power of the Daleks story would you like to see an episode found from? This poll is closed. |
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| Marco Polo |
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36 | 20.69% |
| The Myth Makers |
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10 | 5.75% |
| The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve |
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45 | 25.86% |
| The Savages |
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2 | 1.15% |
| The Smugglers |
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2 | 1.15% |
| The Highlanders |
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45 | 25.86% |
| The Macra Terror |
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21 | 12.07% |
| Fury from the Deep |
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13 | 7.47% |
| Total: | 174 votes | ||
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And More posted:
Dammit
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Mar 9, 2016 17:07
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They're pulling out all the stops, now.
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These are going on my wall. These are going on my wall and I will get McGann, Fisher, Shearman, Davison, Sutton, Platt and Briggs to sign them.
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Mar 9, 2016 17:26
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Toxxupation posted:hmm, what does the guy who wrote the shakespeare code think about other people Don't look up the opinions of people who wrote for the show about the Zygon episodes!
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Mar 9, 2016 17:35
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Don't look up the opinions of people who wrote for the show about the Zygon episodes! Spoiler alert They're exactly what you'd think they'd be
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Mar 9, 2016 17:46
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Toxxupation posted:hmm, what does the guy who wrote the shakespeare code think about other people what on earth is this referring to?
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Mar 9, 2016 23:06
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Cerv posted:what on earth is this referring to?
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Mar 9, 2016 23:17
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Cerv posted:what on earth is this referring to? #thetriggering is a current hashtag making the rounds on twitter for people to "Talk real" to "SJWs" what it really is is a way for racists, sexists, transphobic people to say their horrible opinions and hide behind the paper-thin defense of "shutting down the essjaydubs" like, here's common examples of the great opinions of #thetriggering https://twitter.com/jwoulfsholokhov/status/707701979816919040 https://twitter.com/TrumpHat/status/707692708249387010 https://twitter.com/tassostsl/status/707690979088863232 anyways, the guy who wrote the unicorn and the wasp is basically saying a meme about how people who call themselves gay, trans, etc aren't "identifying" as anything, they're utilizing labelization in substitution of a personality basically he's decidin to dunk on the marginalized but in the most passive-aggressive and pissant way possible
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Mar 10, 2016 00:10
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The best part is that they've all decided to use the same hashtag in their tweets, so anyone who doesn't want to see them can just block that particular hashtag. You could say it's like some kind of... warning, so to speak.
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Mar 10, 2016 00:17
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There's something going on in Series 9 of the Doctor Who revival, and even all these months later I'm still not entirely sure how intentional it was, whether they just kind of bumbled into it or it kind of constructed itself by accident or if it was Moffat was going for from the very start. Even the most optimistic interpretation though still leaves me in two minds about how exactly how I feel about it, and series 9 in general. From the very first episode - The Magician's Apprentice - there is a sense of more going on beneath the surface, of not getting the full story, that there is more to be revealed. The big reveal by the end of the series (not counting the Christmas Special) is that all of this was basically irrelevant, that while people (both characters within the show and the viewers outside it) were focusing on big, vague ideas of monstrous universe shaking events, what was actually at stake, what was actually important, was a far more intimate and "unimportant" thing - the Doctor and Clara's near obsessive need to maintain their relationship. Once you're aware of the eventual resolution, a lot of things fall into place.... kinda. The nonsensical and poorly received (at least vocally so in this forum) "Hybrid" is roundly mocked by the Doctor himself who is at best indifferent to it and at worst openly contemptuous that anybody took it seriously to begin with. The theory that the season was happening out of order and we were seeing the Doctor traveling back into his own timeline to have "new" adventures with Clara while knowing that her death was inevitably approaching turned out to be nothing more than that - a theory, and now a discredited one. So too was the idea that Clara was throwing herself so energetically into their adventures to cover up her repressed emotions regarding Danny's death. In fact, if one thing was made clear it was that Clara was completely devoted to the idea of a life of travel and adventure, that THIS more than anything else was who she was. It is to the show's credit that when Clara finally does realize just how much damage they are doing (to the universe, but also to themselves emotionally and psychologically) she doesn't just immediately give it all up and go back to her "normal" life as a schoolteacher - instead she and the Doctor are treated like equals, leaving it up to chance for a change as to who will be forced to forget who. After a full season of seeing the Doctor's constantly misleading his foes with promises of some great strategy or power or threat all in order to ensure Clara's continued safety, the season ends with the two accepting fate and moving on with their lives and themselves as people. But while this kind of ultimately intimate story has a lot of merit, it raises a couple of pretty major problems. Number one being that even if you loved the ending and think it put the entire season into a new context that, again, you think is great.... it doesn't change up the fact that all those individual episodes basically went nowhere, that they didn't particularly flow well across the season, and it doesn't exactly help to say,"Oh yeah but it'll all (kinda) make sense by the end of the season. An episode needs to be able to stand on its own as compelling/enjoyable to watch, and so much of this season felt like it was missing something, not helped by the fact that where it did seem to be (badly) leading - the Hybrid - ended up being a red herring. And where the season fails on a macro level, it often seemed to fail on a micro-level too. The format of the season was almost entirely made up of two-parters (whether explicit or not), and too often they suffered the same problem of the individual aspects not quite matching up with the whole, of what was being built up in part one being ignored or changed in part two which went somewhere completely different. This isn't to say they were bad episodes, some in fact were pretty drat good (and some, sadly, really terrible) but it created - for me at least - a sense of incohesiveness. Season 9 as a whole doesn't really mesh together even with the fresh context of where everything was ultimately headed, and the two-parters were much the same. You can see this right from the start, as season 9 opens with The Magician's Apprentice, throwing too much into the pot right from the off, dazzling the audience with all kinds of distractions to cover up that it isn't doing much more than getting the Doctor into the same room as the bad guy, then discarding a great deal of what was introduced because it's now become irrelevant to the story Moffat is actually trying to tell.  There's a lot going on before the Doctor finally shows up - minus an incredibly brief shot of him hiding on Karn - and it's all ultimately kind of pointless. A spooky thing called Colony Sarff glides around the galaxy demanding to see the Doctor and getting no answer, until it finally goes to Karn where it is stymied by the Sisterhood and reveals that it is working for Davros, creator of the Daleks. Thus we discover without fanfare or explanation that Davros survived Journey's End and nobody is particularly surprised. Davros, claims Sarff, "remembers". What he remembers is a very well shot opening sequence in which a small boy fleeing a warzone finds himself in a spooky minefield, and when the Doctor shows up to rescue him we learn that this child is none other than Davros himself, long before the horrible events that left him a scarred cripple. Unfortunately Sarff's spookiness is undercut somewhat by the fact he looks like he's more riding around on a scooter than anything else, and a potentially compelling new creature - he is legitimately a colony, multiple snakes bound together in the form of a man - is wasted on a story more concerned with the visual look than whether it really makes any sense or not. The anachronistic battlefields of Skaro, Colony Sarff, the frozen planes, the Master's first appearance etc are all about dazzling the audience with a lot of crazy stuff while nothing much in particular happens with them.    The Master has also returned, showing up and dismissively acknowledging that she isn't dead. Having frozen all the planes in the world in order to get the attention of either the Doctor or somebody who knows him, she organizes a meeting with Clara to reveal that she has been sent the Doctor's "confession dial", a kind of Last Will and Testament sent by a Time Lord to their closest friend/family, something that will only open when said Time Lord is dead. So the Doctor is set to die (deliberately repeating a now oft-used theme from the Moffat era) at some point soon and the Master wants to find him, and she wants Clara's help to track him down. They do so by using UNIT, who are reduced to ineffectual idiots purely for the benefit of making Clara look smart and the Master look dangerous. Clara's breezy acceptance of the weirdness going on around her is meant to sell the idea of her competence but this relies on everybody else being stupid - Kate doesn't take into account the dangers of the fuel on all the controlled planes, and is chided for wanting to immediately contact the Doctor over such a "little" thing. The Master casually kills UNIT bodyguards while the assembled snipers don't make a move to do anything about it, and citizens are allowed to wander freely through the operational zone purely so the Master can make a (hilarious) aside about how Clara is basically a pet for the Doctor. Then once they've used UNIT's resources to pinpoint the Doctor in time and space, the Master teleports her and Clara away and.... that's the end of UNIT in not just this story, but the next one too. They find the Doctor in 12th Century Essex, where he has been "partying" away being deliberately anachronistic in order to get attention. Reunited with Clara (and the Master), we're treated to visual imagery that is striking but also smacks very much of "wackiness" that stretches believability (and I say this with full knowledge that this is a show about a 2000 year old body-changing alien who travels through time and space in a blue police box bigger on the inside than the outside). Confronted by Colony Sarff who was instructed by Davros to find the Doctor's friends in order to find him, they are teleported away in snake-cuffs and flown to meet with Davros. And the entire time all this is happening, only the briefest moment is given for Clara to address the elephant in the room - the Master is still alive, and she isn't anywhere near as upset as you'd expect her to be about it. There is the briefest of an initial reaction when she sees her, a moment of discussion with the Doctor that is more about guilting the Doctor into finding a way to survive this situation to make it "worth it" that he not only suspected the woman who cynically exploited her boyfriend's death was alive but hopeful for it. And then from that point on she is not only perfectly fine with being around the Master, but actually seems to be enjoying her company! Repressed emotions? Playing a long game? Being pragmatic? Even with the eventual knowledge of where the season is leading, it doesn't really make much sense for Clara to be so indifferent to the Master's continued existence, and certainly not for her to be having fun in her company. The sad thing is, the two do actually have pretty good chemistry together, and Michelle Gomez continues to absolutely kill it as the Master (I'll always think of her that way, calling her "Missy" just seems wrong to me even though that's what she keeps using herself) - her playing off the Doctor is great too, the way she explains the importance of "gravity", her experimentation with stepping into space etc. Plus she's such a well established monster herself by this point that it really makes the horror she shows feel special when she realizes exactly where they are.   But the saving grace of the episode, the part where it shines and carries everything else comes in the scenes between the Doctor and Davros. Not seen since the finale of season 4, Davros returns in this story as a sick old man who is waiting to die in his old family home surrounded by his children. That his children are monomaniacal genocide machines is beside the point, and the obvious pride that Davros takes both in their survival AND their independence is a marked difference from prior stories in which he flitted between desperation and fury that they wouldn't accept/respect him as their creator. Now they seem content to have him present, to do everything to keep him alive, and he is content simply to be. Of course it's all a lie, and we all know it even if it won't be "revealed" till the next episode - Davros is offering something to the Daleks just to get them to tolerate him, and their desire to keep him alive is purely because they want him to do as he promised. All this allows for some great interactions between the Doctor and Davros, who has finally remembered that the Doctor abandoned him to die in the minefield as a child (only remembered now because it only actually happened for the first time when the 12th Doctor showed up unknowingly on Skaro?), and the Doctor is living with the shame of his actions. Davros delights in taunting the Doctor, all the while putting on the performance of being weaker than he claims, barely able to keep his head up. He plays old recorded footage of previous encounters with the Doctor, including audio of the 4th Doctor posing the old "would you kill baby Hitler?" conundrum in all but name. He lets the Doctor watch the Master and Clara being dragged before the Supreme Dalek, watch as the Master tries to strike a deal with the Daleks while playing her own long game, and then glories in the perfection of his Daleks as they hold Clara's life in their hands. The Daleks are perfectly written here too, their simultaneous turn to the Supreme Dalek to silently beg for permission to kill the Master is a wonderful moment, as is their eager turn to see if Clara will run. For the Daleks, every cell of their being screams,"DALEKS ARE SUPERIOR, ALL NON-DALEKS MUST BE DESTROYED" and every time they actually get to do that is a validation of their genetic imperative. So of course they revel in it, hold it off to get the maximum level of fear and terror from their prey before the inevitable happens. The Daleks exterminate the Master, exterminate Clara, and destroy the TARDIS all while the Doctor is forced to watch and Davros takes quiet satisfaction in his helplessness.   But the problem is.... none of it seems real. While you could argue that OF COURSE the good guys are probably not gonna die and the bad guys are very unlikely to ultimately win.... a good cliffhanger needs to let the viewer suspend their disbelief. The Master and Clara's death are so obviously telegraphed to be teleportations that I doubt anybody felt even a moment of concern or fear or otherwise believed what they saw. Nobody thought the TARDIS was actually destroyed, and the big cliffhanger moment where we return to young Davros and the Doctor shows back up with a Dalek blaster and makes as if to exterminate him... nobody believed that he was actually gonna shoot a kid in cold blood either. http://i.imgur.com/1G1Rbyg.gifv In the end, The Magician's Apprentice unfortunately feels like a padded out first 30 minutes of what should have been a 70-80 minute extra-long special opening episode. It jams too much in then discards too much of it, and it all gets in the way of the real strength of the episode which is the interactions between the Doctor and Davros, and secondarily the odd-couple pairing of the Master and Clara which has problems all its own. As the opening to Series 9, it does some interesting stuff but ultimately falls flat, and you could argue it works as a pretty good encapsulation of series 9 as a whole. It's trying to do something, it's almost getting it right, but it's far too concerned with the ending to worry about the process of getting there. All that said, it does include the following shot, which pretty much justifies its existence in every way: http://i.imgur.com/6TZnoPa.gifv Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 07:07
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Of COURSE that was the point. There's no goddamn way of watching Series 9 with a critical eye where it isn't ABUNDENTLY CLEAR that the Doctor/Clara dynamic is what Moffat cared about, the kind of story he's ALWAYS really interested in telling. You'd think that'd be taken as read, by now. In any case: Toxxupation posted:#thetriggering is a current hashtag making the rounds on twitter for people to "Talk real" to "SJWs" yikes
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Mar 10, 2016 07:27
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DoctorWhat posted:Of COURSE that was the point. There's no goddamn way of watching Series 9 with a critical eye where it isn't ABUNDENTLY CLEAR that the Doctor/Clara dynamic is what Moffat cared about, the kind of story he's ALWAYS really interested in telling. The trouble is that he hamfistedly (deliberately so) keeps pushing the Hybrid line so he can pull out the rug at the end and focus on the (much more interesting) escalating problems caused by the Doctor/Clara co-dependence. So when it finally comes into clear focus it's AFTER episode after episode pushing a less interesting derivative of the frequent season-long arcs that have characterized the show. Sure that gives everything an interesting new context and makes rewatching the season as a whole a different experience, but it doesn't change the inherent problem of week after week of episodes that felt like they weren't going anywhere (or were going somewhere uninspired) and only really improve after the fact when the viewer has all the information. There are still very good episodes in this season, and it's possible to see the Doctor/Clara relationship problems in there, but they're presented (again seemingly deliberately) in such a way that it makes it look like they're going one way just so Moffat can take it in another direction once we get to the end. I don't want to sound too negative on series 9 because I still enjoyed it, both week to week (with a couple of notable exceptions) and moreso once it was all done. But this is nowhere as strong a season as series 8 was, and that's kind of disappointing. It's similar to how series 6 has some of the absolute best episodes the revival has ever done, but the season itself is a disjointed mess that doesn't compare to the almost perfect series 5 that preceded it.
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Mar 10, 2016 07:43
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Toxxupation posted:hmm, what does the guy who wrote the shakespeare code think about other people https://twitter.com/GonSmithe/status/707592765488680960 lmao
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Mar 10, 2016 11:57
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DoctorWhat posted:In any case: I think me stating my opinion on the people in that hashtag would make me sound like the villain of a mediocre bottle episode, so I'm gonna just stay silent on that. But, y'know, you should all know I'm thinking it.
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Mar 10, 2016 12:11
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Toxxupation posted:#thetriggering is a current hashtag making the rounds on twitter for people to "Talk real" to "SJWs" So glad I asked
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Mar 10, 2016 12:12
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Cleretic posted:I think me stating my opinion on the people in that hashtag would make me sound like the villain of a mediocre bottle episode, so I'm gonna just stay silent on that. I’ll say it. It sounds like the title of Joseph Lidster’s next Big Finish audio. Or a new RPG line from White Wolf. Millennials: The Triggering CobiWann fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 12:28
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DoctorWhat posted:Of COURSE that was the point. There's no goddamn way of watching Series 9 with a critical eye where it isn't ABUNDENTLY CLEAR that the Doctor/Clara dynamic is what Moffat cared about, the kind of story he's ALWAYS really interested in telling. I'm not sure how this is a defense of including lots of extraneous bumf that does nothing except distract from the theme. If the audience reaction to the material is a load of dismissive yawning, yanking away the curtain to reveal that it was actually all a bluff and it doesn't mean anything is only going to produce the desired reaction if you wanted people to go "Why did you waste our loving time, then?" Also dude knock it down a notch; your tone for anything textual analysis-y over the past few months has become increasingly superior-than-thou, which coupled with your analysis being pretty lacking on several occasions (most obviously the Zygon episodes, although what really stands out is dismissing other analyses based on little more than "it's different from mine therefore it's bad") makes you come across as a first year undergraduate who thinks they know everything. Jerusalem posted:Colony Sarff Lots of colonies have a Sarff MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 13:40
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Lots of colonies have a Sarff 
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Mar 10, 2016 14:05
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I'm not sure I really understand anyone's motivations in The Magician's Apprentice. Why's the Doctor all withdrawn? What's with his confession dial? Why does Clara seem so pally with Missy? Moffat's never had a particularly strong sense of sentimentality to his writing, but to be so clearly out of touch with his character's emotions is confusing. (And, by extension, why was the Doctor so blase about Gallifrey being back in the finale? Just two seasons ago he was crying about it being even possibly back, but now he treats it with the same contempt he had for it back in the 80's. What's more, it's exactly the same planet of stiff collars that it was back in the 80's, which seems like a wasted opportunity tbh. If the Doctor doesn't seem particularly worried about the lot of them being back -- which, why hasn't it started the next Last Great Time Wa again? -- then that's kind of deflating.) Eugh. That started out as a legitimate question and turned into a rant.
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Mar 10, 2016 14:31
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They said in the episode that they had hidden Gallifrey away in a quiet bit of time to make sure it was safe. Clara later mocked them for not realising everybody hates them. He was blase about it because at the time he was mostly concerned about getting his best friend back; the contrast between Gallifrey being massively important to him previously and just being a means to an end now highlighted how strongly he feels about her. Plus, also as Clara says, how else could a story about the Doctor returning to Gallifrey end but with him realising Gallifrey sucks, stealing a Tardis and running away?
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Mar 10, 2016 15:04
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DoctorWhat posted:Of COURSE that was the point. There's no goddamn way of watching Series 9 with a critical eye where it isn't ABUNDENTLY CLEAR that the Doctor/Clara dynamic is what Moffat cared about, the kind of story he's ALWAYS really interested in telling. I'm going to quote from Andrew Rilstone, because he said it better than I could. He's talking about Dark Water/Death in Heaven, but I think the criticism still applies. http://www.andrewrilstone.com/2015/10/continues.html posted:4: Scenes I've grown weary of redemptive readings that go, basically, "No, no, see, it needs to suck here because..." or "No, the writer only cares about this bit, so they just do this cool image and ignore the rest because...". If he cares about it, write it well. And if you're ignoring all the cool things in your episode in favor of badly written, artificial drama... If David Whitaker can figure out how to make me care about monsters in spacesuits without making one of them the love interest of the protagonist, then Moffat ought to be able to as well...  
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Mar 10, 2016 16:05
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Toph Bei Fong posted:If David Whitaker can figure out how to make me care about monsters in spacesuits without making one of them the love interest of the protagonist, then Moffat ought to be able to as well... That's hardly fair on Moffat 
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Mar 10, 2016 16:15
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Especially because Ambassadors had Hulke and Dicks doing a significant amount too
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Mar 10, 2016 16:31
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To be fair Missy didn't lie - she just didn't say when it was. Also the Doctor was loving pissed because he realized that Rassilon had turned his confession dial into a torture device and he had just lived through billions of years of burning past selves up. When he realized that he was on Gallifrey he knew who had been giving Me protection and who caused Clara to dir.
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Mar 10, 2016 16:32
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Now hold on, I wasn't making a declarative statement of the quality of the Doctor/Clara arc (though I certainly hold it in higher regard than most here). I'm just saying that Moffat's intent should, by this point, be abundantly clear. Which, I suppose, is as good a reason as any for him to step away, isn't it?
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Mar 10, 2016 16:36
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Especially because Ambassadors had Hulke and Dicks doing a significant amount too That's fair. Ambassadors *Twang* is one of the better stories from the Pertwee era, and heavily worked on by 3 of the best minds Who ever had. But if you're going to remind me of that story, your story ought to compare favorably, eh? DoctorWhat posted:Now hold on, I wasn't making a declarative statement of the quality of the Doctor/Clara arc (though I certainly hold it in higher regard than most here). I'm just saying that Moffat's intent should, by this point, be abundantly clear. Yeah, I suppose. It's a dynamic I want to like, and the chemistry between the actors is fantastic. But the writing... 
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Mar 10, 2016 16:58
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Toph Bei Fong posted:That's fair. Ambassadors *Twang* is one of the better stories
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Mar 10, 2016 17:32
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CobiWann posted:Joseph Lister You haven't started Red Dwarf yet, like we told you to... have you? 
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Mar 10, 2016 18:13
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Open Source Idiom posted:
Several billion years of torture might do that to you.
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Mar 10, 2016 18:45
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Yeah, Ambassadors is in my personal top 5, along with (in no particular order) Brain of Morbius, Mind Robber, The Chase, and Happiness Patrol. What would everyone else call for theirs? Not necessarily the "best" from an objective or technical standpoint (I'll be the first to admit that the lighting in Happiness Patrol sucks and the whole production looks rather cheap, and that the Chase drags a bit in the middle), but a personal one. The ones you put on when you're in a guilty pleasure mode, not trying to prove to someone that the show is "good" (though certainly I think Ambassadors or Brain would do that).
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Mar 10, 2016 19:15
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The Chase starts slowly, drags in the middle and the less said about the end the better I'd say The Curse of Fenric, State of Decay, The Ark in Space, The Seeds of Death are all things I'd happily watch at the drop of a hat, and of course Timelash is uniformly entertaining due to being terrible. This list is of course distinct from what I consider the "best" episodes (although Curse and Ark are in both)
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Mar 10, 2016 19:24
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Resuming watching Dalek Invasion of Earth having gotten interrupted last time, and there's a massive dialogue free sequence of them taking Dr Strangelove through London with daleks patrolling. You wouldn't get that kind of thing nowadays. Meanwhile,  "drat, yours IS bigger"
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Mar 10, 2016 19:27
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Chase starts slowly, drags in the middle and the less said about the end the better Regardless of how silly, I cannot bring myself to hate this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hLnj2hOH0 And this bit is some of the best Hartnell/Hill/Russell in the series. Lovely and bittersweet in all the right ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYVd7GKTLWo
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Mar 10, 2016 19:53
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You've made a horrible mistake, that first link isn't the dalek who's bad at maths
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Mar 10, 2016 19:58
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The amount of worldbuilding in The Dalek Invasion of Earth could sustain several complete seasons nowadays [edit] davey campbell is a pie [edit2] Man, the daleks are so obsessed with Molten Core. They'll go spare when BWL hits MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 10, 2016 |
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Mar 10, 2016 20:21
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Yeah, Ambassadors is in my personal top 5, along with (in no particular order) Brain of Morbius, Mind Robber, The Chase, and Happiness Patrol. The Time Meddler, The Web of Fear, City of Death, Vengeance on Varos, Curse of Fenric.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:39
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Toph Bei Fong posted:If David Whitaker can figure out how to make me care about monsters in spacesuits without making one of them the love interest of the protagonist, then Moffat ought to be able to as well... Hey, who turned out the lights?
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Mar 10, 2016 21:03
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Oooh a top 5? Let me think... Becomes John Cusack in High Fidelity MrL_JaKiri posted:Lots of colonies have a Sarff You beautiful, beautiful man 
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Mar 10, 2016 21:25
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Jerusalem posted:Oooh a top 5? Let me think... Being John Malkovich 2: Cusack
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Mar 10, 2016 21:30
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Top 5? No real order: Genesis of the Daleks Carnival of Monsters The Time Meddler Ghost Light The Invasion
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Mar 10, 2016 21:38
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After The War posted:You haven't started Red Dwarf yet, like we told you to... have you? I don't understand the question and refuse to acknowledge it.
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Mar 10, 2016 22:01
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