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Jewel Repetition posted:Interesting that its "developing" economy was so bad while it was so powerful otherwise. Maybe there was something wrong with its economic system. bernie's right flank must be made up of some pretty strange people
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Jan 22, 2016 22:33
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Homework Explainer posted:"It is regrettable that many of the advocates of the genocide thesis continue to claim Conquest to justify their position, despite his clearly expressed views on this matter. See the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute Conference on Holodomor on November 18, 2008. At the conference Nicolas Werth was asked by a participant in the conference, who had attended a lecture given by Wheatcroft, whether Conquest accepted the view that the famine was genocide. Werth strangely replied that ‘we all know in scientific circles the very complicated relations between Conquest and Wheatcroft’; he repeated this several times, but declined to reply to the question. Kul’chitskii more straightforwardly has explained that in June 2006 a Ukrainian delegation of experts on the Holocaust and the Holodomor met Robert Conquest in Stanford University and enquired about his views, and were told directly by him that he preferred not to use the term genocide (Kul’chitskii (2007), 176)." "Holodomor was intentional" - the majority of scholars.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:33
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Homework Explainer posted:"It is regrettable that many of the advocates of the genocide thesis continue to claim Conquest to justify their position, despite his clearly expressed views on this matter. See the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute Conference on Holodomor on November 18, 2008. At the conference Nicolas Werth was asked by a participant in the conference, who had attended a lecture given by Wheatcroft, whether Conquest accepted the view that the famine was genocide. Werth strangely replied that ‘we all know in scientific circles the very complicated relations between Conquest and Wheatcroft’; he repeated this several times, but declined to reply to the question. Kul’chitskii more straightforwardly has explained that in June 2006 a Ukrainian delegation of experts on the Holocaust and the Holodomor met Robert Conquest in Stanford University and enquired about his views, and were told directly by him that he preferred not to use the term genocide (Kul’chitskii (2007), 176)." So what you call it is more important than the intentional murder itself? What the gently caress are you arguing?
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Jan 22, 2016 22:33
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Jewel Repetition posted:Interesting that its "developing" economy was so bad while it was so powerful otherwise. Maybe there was something wrong with its economic system. i didn't say it was bad, i said it and the us weren't equivalent developmentally. the fact the ussr competed and often outperformed a country with such an advanced economy in metrics like literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy (also lol at the idea of a country doing genocide on its people while also doubling life expectancy) is indication that an advanced socialism would be even more superior Jewel Repetition posted:Btw not everyone who shops at a grocery store is "petit bourgeois." do you know what a food desert is
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Jan 22, 2016 22:34
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Aliquid posted:bernie's right flank must be made up of some pretty strange people This thread is the only place where I, somebody who's considered a bleeding heart tax-and-spend extreme left winger in their own country, can be labeled rightist or reactionary. It's surreal.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:35
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Homework Explainer posted:food selection for the petit bourgeois in the most economically advanced country on the planet was superior to that of a developing economy that still managed to go toe-to-toe with said country for much of the 20th century yes it's true, it's my fault for ignoring all the countries that used centralized agriculture and food production systems that became known for the variety and quality of the food available to their citizenry such as ??? and ??? definitely not willful blindness on your part to see that there might be something worthy worrying about if the gap in the quality of consumer goods under centrally planned economies was so large that it routinely shocked the elites who experienced the difference I'm sure it'd be different this time, despite all historical evidence and the lack of any plausible reasons
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Jan 22, 2016 22:37
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Jewel Repetition posted:"Holodomor was intentional" - the majority of scholars. you keep saying it was intentional and there's this incredible consensus without providing any evidence. there's internal soviet documents after the archives opened that showed the leadership responded to the crisis. stalin himself privately expressed fear that the ussr would "lose ukraine." the facts don't line up with the genocide hypothesis Jewel Repetition posted:This thread is the only place where I, somebody who's considered a bleeding heart tax-and-spend extreme left winger in their own country, can be labeled rightist or reactionary. It's surreal. i agree, political definitions in the united states are very poorly calibrated due to it being the center of world reaction
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Jan 22, 2016 22:39
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LGD posted:In my mind socialized agriculture (and a socialized food production system) is what it has been like historically- i.e. absolutely dire. That wasn't a made up example, that was something Viktor Belenko (a Mig Pilot who defected in 1976) actually experienced. He was convinced the U.S. grocery stores he visited were Potemkin villages the CIA set up specifically for his benefit rather than entirely typical examples of things the citizenry had access to because the quality and variety of foods available was so high/large. He also accidentally bought canned dog food and happily consumed it before someone informed him of what he was doing. He deemed it superior to the canned food available to the populace of the Soviet Union. And in my mind socialized agriculture looks more like Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, in which lands were redistributed to the peasants who worked them, while fertilizers and agricultural capital were provided by the government. Within 3 years Burkina Faso went from a food importer which relied on foreign aid, to a food exporter which had achieved food security for all Burkinabe. In the United States, agriculture has become so overwhelmingly Capital intensive that it's impossible for small farmers to exist anymore without permanently indebting themselves to the major agcorps. Agricultural lands are slowly being bought up and consolidated by these corporations, or tributized through debt payments and licensing agreements. It's getting to the point where the sheer scale of modern agriculture makes it impossible for farmers to survive, unless of course the brunt of the capital was being covered by society instead of banks and agcorps. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 22:43
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:And in my mind socialized agriculture looks more like Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, in which lands were redistributed to the peasants who worked them, while fertilizers and agricultural capital were provided by the government. Within 3 years Burkina Faso went from a food importer which relied on foreign aid, to a food exporter which had achieved food security for all Burkinabe. No but you see a system where poor farmers are forced into selling their staple crops to upper middle class American citizens is actually better for them because
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Jan 22, 2016 22:48
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Homework Explainer posted:i didn't say it was bad, i said it and the us weren't equivalent developmentally. the fact the ussr competed and often outperformed a country with such an advanced economy in metrics like literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy (also lol at the idea of a country doing genocide on its people while also doubling life expectancy) is indication that an advanced socialism would be even more superior Soviet life expectancy and infant mortality were worse than ours toward the end, because their healthcare deteriorated just like everything else inevitably does in a communist system. Also the increased life expectancy came after the genocide. Homework Explainer posted:do you know what a food desert is Yeah. I live in one, and I'm below the poverty line, yet I still eat groceries as opposed to, I don't know, soup from public kitchens. Homework Explainer posted:you keep saying it was intentional and there's this incredible consensus without providing any evidence. there's internal soviet documents after the archives opened that showed the leadership responded to the crisis. stalin himself privately expressed fear that the ussr would "lose ukraine." the facts don't line up with the genocide hypothesis http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/Davies_Wheatcroft_ch.4_Famine.pdf http://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/History#ref404577 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UkFlO7hoxOMC&pg=PA194&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false http://www.faminegenocide.com/kuryliw/the_ukrainian_genocide.htm For examples. And I'm pretty sure if he ever said he was afraid of "losing Ukraine" it was in a military/ideological context.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:And in my mind socialized agriculture looks more like Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, in which lands were redistributed to the peasants who worked them, while fertilizers and agricultural capital were provided by the government. Within 3 years Burkina Faso went from a food importer which relied on foreign aid, to a food exporter which had achieved food security for all Burkinabe. Subsidies are fine.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:50
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Homework Explainer posted:you keep saying it was intentional and there's this incredible consensus Except that there is widespread consensus and considerable evidence to support it and you are mulishly denying in much the same way it is denied that climate change is not real or that the holocaust never happened: hand waving and fantasy. The very evidence you cite to support this--Tauger--is aggressively criticized by Davies & Wheatcroft who you also cite ITT. You refute yourself.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:50
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Yudo posted:Except that there is widespread consensus and considerable evidence to support it and you are mulishly denying in much the same way it is denied that climate change is not real or that the holocaust never happened: hand waving and fantasy. The very evidence you cite to support this--Tauger--is aggressively criticized by Davies & Wheatcroft who you also cite ITT. You refute yourself. I didn't even catch that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCh2l0J1uJk
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Jan 22, 2016 22:52
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The USSR's actions were basically genocide even if technically it can be argued they weren't but really the USSR was as usual getting poo poo for being a few decades behind the cultural curve and its actions are easily comparable to the UK's actions in India at the end of the 19th century as well as other countries like Brazil, Ethiopia, China, etc. It was awful, but it's hardly uniquely awful in the historical context.
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Jan 22, 2016 22:52
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:And in my mind socialized agriculture looks more like Thomas Sankara's Burkina Faso, in which lands were redistributed to the peasants who worked them, while fertilizers and agricultural capital were provided by the government. Within 3 years Burkina Faso went from a food importer which relied on foreign aid, to a food exporter which had achieved food security for all Burkinabe. when I tell you that a socialized food system would be wildly unappealing to the U.S. population at large due to quality issues and you respond by saying you're thinking about policies modeled on a country where 80% of the populace is engaged in rural subsistence level farming you're not really helping your case edit: oh you added some more dumb poo poo Pener Kropoopkin posted:In the United States, agriculture has become so overwhelmingly Capital intensive that it's impossible for small farmers to exist anymore without permanently indebting themselves to the major agcorps. Agricultural lands are slowly being bought up and consolidated by these corporations, or tributized through debt payments and licensing agreements. It's getting to the point where the sheer scale of modern agriculture makes it impossible for farmers to survive, unless of course the brunt of the capital was being covered by society instead of banks and agcorps. however unless you fetishize small farmers (which you may) it's not really clear why this is inherently a problem, since the U.S. demonstrably doesn't have issues producing enough food in either quality or variety agricultural subsidies to keep small farms from dying off are not usually associated with radical socialist change in America, they're actually a tentpole of conservative mainstream politics (and are actually garbage corporate welfare to people who are generally already well-off) LGD fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 22:52
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Jewel Repetition posted:http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/Davies_Wheatcroft_ch.4_Famine.pdf from the very book you linked: Wheatcroft and Davies posted:'Our study of the famine has led us to very different conclusions from Dr Conquest’s. He holds that Stalin ‘wanted a famine’, that ‘the Soviets did not want the famine to be coped with successfully’, and that the Ukrainian famine was ‘deliberately inflicted for its own sake’. This leads him to the sweeping conclusion: ‘The main lesson seems to be that the Communist ideology provided the motivation for an unprecedented massacre of men, women and children.’ Yudo posted:Except that there is widespread consensus and considerable evidence to support it and you are mulishly denying in much the same way it is denied that climate change is not real or that the holocaust never happened: hand waving and fantasy. The very evidence you cite to support this--Tauger--is aggressively criticized by Davies & Wheatcroft who you also cite ITT. You refute yourself. davies and wheatcroft can be wrong about one thing and right about another!!! i just quoted them again, does that freak you out? get the heck outta here dork and gently caress off with this equating with holocaust/climate change denial. even the ukrainian commission to investigate the famine couldn't come to a consensus on the issue. a majority of russians when polled would prefer the return of the soviet system and this holds true for many of the former republics, but i guess westerners on the internet know better, huh
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Jan 22, 2016 23:07
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wait lol i actually clicked through and the chapter from davies and wheatcroft also does not argue for genocide, they basically say "stalin hosed up big time," which i agree with. jesus christ do you even read your own evidence
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Jan 22, 2016 23:13
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LGD posted:when I tell you that a socialized food system would be wildly unappealing to the U.S. population at large due to quality issues and you respond by saying you're thinking about policies modeled on a country where 80% of the populace is engaged in rural subsistence level farming you're not really helping your case The whole nature of the problem that we've been bringing up is that the ability of the capitalist system to produce a variety of quality goods was never in question, the issue is the ability of the system to distribute those goods where they are most needed. I posted multiple links to qualified sources about the food security crisis in the United States of all places, and major issues of quality with foods that are available to the poor; but then your eyes glazed over and you started blabbing about a Soviet defector eating dog food.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:15
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Jewel Repetition posted:Soviet life expectancy and infant mortality were worse than ours toward the end, because their healthcare deteriorated just like everything else inevitably does in a communist system. Also the increased life expectancy came after the genocide. And when Russia transitioned to Capitalist system under enlightened Liberal rule that all turned around for them.  Oh - OH NO~
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Jan 22, 2016 23:21
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:And when Russia transitioned to Capitalist system under enlightened Liberal rule that all turned around for them. http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/09/02/dying-russians/
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Jan 22, 2016 23:25
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you can provide evidence and contextualize your position nonstop but if you don't nod and say yes the soviet union was a hitler demon country where humans were thrown into a meat grinder for sport, that also somehow became a global superpower in less than half a century, you're the same as a holocaust denier so i'm gonna go ahead and only talk about socialism in the 21st century now, what with that being the century in which we currently live
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Jan 22, 2016 23:26
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Homework Explainer posted:and gently caress off with this equating with holocaust/climate change denial. even the ukrainian commission to investigate the famine couldn't come to a consensus on the issue. Ukrainian court considers it to be a genocide: http://lb.ua/news/2010/01/14/19793_nalivaychenko_nazval_kolichestvo_zh.html Homework Explainer posted:a majority of russians when polled would prefer the return of the soviet system and this holds true for many of the former republics, but i guess westerners on the internet know better, huh That's because Russia loving sucks now. It's a combination of nostalgia and the mistaken belief that communism would fix their new problems. Pener Kropoopkin posted:The whole nature of the problem that we've been bringing up is that the ability of the capitalist system to produce a variety of quality goods was never in question, the issue is the ability of the system to distribute those goods where they are most needed. I posted multiple links to qualified sources about the food security crisis in the United States of all places, and major issues of quality with foods that are available to the poor; but then your eyes glazed over and you started blabbing about a Soviet defector eating dog food. The problems with food security here are nothing compared to what's happened in socialist countries. We're not eating cats like Cuba or dying by the millions like the USSR.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The whole nature of the problem that we've been bringing up is that the ability of the capitalist system to produce a variety of quality goods was never in question, the issue is the ability of the system to distribute those goods where they are most needed. I posted multiple links to qualified sources about the food security crisis in the United States of all places, and major issues of quality with foods that are available to the poor; but then your eyes glazed over and you started blabbing about a Soviet defector eating dog food. which is why you said that a socialized food system would deliver a better range of foods than the current system and then when I pointed out that centralized food distribution systems had historically been godawful you said you had been thinking of a land reform and subsidy program in a country where the population exists by doing subsistence farming food security issues are largely a matter of insufficient income, something that is very easy to address (in a technical sense) via transfer payments, the problem being political will however instead of advocating for that you're suggesting we need to completely alter the way we handle agriculture and food production so that the poorest among us will have access to "properly" nutritious foods (something that by your rhetoric very obviously has nothing to do with macro-nutrient intake and quite a bit to do with mandating food choices on a society-wide level) gee it sure is a mystery why I'd think examples from the most economically advanced empire that tried to do centralized food production on an industrial scale and ended up producing culinary horrors would be relevant you are a colossal loving idiot
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Jan 22, 2016 23:32
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Homework Explainer posted:from the very book you linked: nice meltdown bro. Davies and Wheatcroft completly dismissed in the "Years of Hunger" (which you cited) Tauger's assertion that he murder of millions of Ukrainians was a compete oopsie doodle (i.e. not absolving Stalin). Even those not 100% damning Stalin (a small group, for sure) think Tauger "accident" hypothesis is utterly wrong. So Tauger is the one guy who thinks that global cooling is a thing and that the
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Jan 22, 2016 23:33
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Homework Explainer posted:you can provide evidence and contextualize your position nonstop
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Jan 22, 2016 23:34
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in the spirit of the thread's original subject matter i recommend a purge because i've had this argument so many times and literally no one arguing these anticom positions ever changes their mind. this is a waste of my time and yours
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Jan 22, 2016 23:42
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Homework Explainer posted:in the spirit of the thread's original subject matter i recommend a purge because i've had this argument so many times and literally no one arguing these anticom positions ever changes their mind. this is a waste of my time and yours That's one thing we can agree on.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:43
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Jewel Repetition posted:The problems with food security here are nothing compared to what's happened in socialist countries. We're not eating cats like Cuba or dying by the millions like the USSR. Plenty of people were eating their pets during the Dust Bowl, and people died by the millions in the colonial peripheries of countries which were nominally Liberal as well. Or to put it in other words: team overhead smash posted:It was awful, but it's hardly uniquely awful in the historical context. LGD posted:food security issues are largely a matter of insufficient income, something that is very easy to address (in a technical sense) via transfer payments, the problem being political will Transfer payments via programs like SNAP may solve the issue of accessibility without addressing the issues of dietary choice, which is why I specifically brought up the common practice of making cheap foods chemically addictive - as that is a highly profitable practice. One way or another, the for-profit system ensures that millions of people won't be able to meet adequate dietary needs either through the lack of accessibility, or through the cultivation of unhealthy eating habits. Simple transfer payments are insufficient in addressing the issue, not unless you're also delivering a basket of goods which guarantees nutritional availability to all households. quote:you are a colossal loving idiot gently caress you too, buddy. 
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Jan 22, 2016 23:44
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Homework Explainer posted:in the spirit of the thread's original subject matter i recommend a purge because i've had this argument so many times and literally no one arguing these anticom positions ever changes their mind. this is a waste of my time and yours Actually I'm a former Anticom who underwent a complete conversion after extensive research. I hope that one day Jewel Repetition too will see the light and slay the Running Dog within.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:46
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British capitalists killed 2 million Indians throughout the Bengal Famine of 1948.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:47
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^^^I would never suggest that anticommunist countries do evil poo poo. Legitimacy in totalitarian regimes lies in ideology, particularly when it is millenarian. In this case, the ideology is folly. An argument against Marxist-Leninism is not necessarily "capitalism rulze 420 smoke weed." It's like there are more than two possible opinions... Homework Explainer posted:in the spirit of the thread's original subject matter i recommend a purge because i've had this argument so many times and literally no one arguing these anticom positions ever changes their mind. this is a waste of my time and yours Ah yes, liquidate the counterrevolutionaries, comrade. I agree: Marxist-Leninism has so discredited itself that it is not worth discussing with nonbelievers. Yudo fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 23:47
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Yudo posted:Ah yes, liquidate the counterrevolutionaries, comrade. I agree: Marxist-Leninism has so discredited itself that it is not worth discussing with nonbelievers. look man, there's an actual scholarly debate still going on about the famine. solzhenitsyn, a dude i consider to be a trash person, does not buy the genocide hypothesis. if you're going to compare it to holocaust denial there really isn't much else to say except "i disagree" and leave it at that and if you think marxism-leninism is millenarian you don't know poo poo about it on, like, a theoretical level. so there's even less reason for you to be posting here R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 23:50
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The Kingfish posted:British capitalists killed 2 million Indians throughout the Bengal Famine of 1948. *colonialists
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Jan 22, 2016 23:57
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Has anyone ever denied a genocide/atrocity happened and been on the right side of history?
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Jan 22, 2016 23:57
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Transfer payments via programs like SNAP may solve the issue of accessibility without addressing the issues of dietary choice, which is why I specifically brought up the common practice of making cheap foods chemically addictive - as that is a highly profitable practice. One way or another, the for-profit system ensures that millions of people won't be able to meet adequate dietary needs either through the lack of accessibility, or through the cultivation of unhealthy eating habits. Simple transfer payments are insufficient in addressing the issue, not unless you're also delivering a basket of goods which guarantees nutritional availability to all households. How much do you actually know about this poo poo? Transfer payments is a broad label that covers far more than just food stamps, and they've done actual studies on the impact of food deserts. Most of the evidence points toward them having a negligible influence- I think grocery store location accounts for something like 10% of the difference in eating habits. You solve this problem by actually having a robust social welfare system and jobs that provide adequate wages so that people can make their own choices, not by making sure people get their monthly shipment of government kale.
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Jan 22, 2016 23:59
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Jewel Repetition posted:Has anyone ever denied a genocide/atrocity happened and been on the right side of history?
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Jan 22, 2016 23:59
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Homework Explainer posted:look man, there's an actual scholarly debate still going on about the famine. solzhenitsyn, a dude i consider to be a trash person, does not buy the genocide hypothesis. if you're going to compare it to holocaust denial there really isn't much else to say except "i disagree" and leave it at that The consensus is for intentionality. You are like those people who claim there is a "scholarly debate" about evolution and and climate change (hint: there isn't). I'd be happy to discuss whether or not the Terror was intentional, or perhaps the glories of the Khmer Rouge? How about agricultural collectivization in China and backyard steel production? What other examples of Marxist-Leninist and derivative governance can we discuss to convince the capitalist recidivist of his foolishness? It is millenarian. Like, by definition. Wiki posted:Millenarianism (also millenarism), from Latin mīllēnārius "containing a thousand", is the belief by a religious, social, or political group or movement in a coming major transformation of society, after which all things will be changed. Millenarianism is a concept or theme that exists in many cultures and religions. Yudo fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 00:00
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Jewel Repetition posted:Has anyone ever denied a genocide/atrocity happened and been on the right side of history? Well the Nazis denied their involvement in the Katyn Forest massacre and were proven right. Wait, poo poo, bad example. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 00:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Transfer payments via programs like SNAP may solve the issue of accessibility without addressing the issues of dietary choice, It's an issue that we have choice
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Jan 23, 2016 00:06
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Yudo is great, tell us more about how communists are trying to immanentize the eschaton, Mr. All-Varsity College Republican Debate & Book Club
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Jan 23, 2016 00:07
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