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De-lurking to say that this LP is a big part of the reason I caved and bought an account. I can't really connect with the queer aspects of the game (as a straight white male from the Midwest,) but as someone currently working through some Personal Issues, the psychological elements of the story hit me hard. Also, I swear every time I read this thing I pick up something new. For instance, I think it's only hinted at twice throughout all three main paths, but I think Jupiter's father is gay. Which is sad to think about, if it's true: the first queer person she meets in her entire life is trapped in a hetero marriage. (They're not divorcing for that in the Midwest, especially with a kid in the mix.) With him as her first model for how queer people should exist in the world, it's no wonder that she instinctively pushes her own self, especially her desire for romantic love, aside. EDIT: de-spoilered StupendousMan fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Mar 17, 2016 |
# ? Mar 17, 2016 04:51 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:42 |
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Nah it's fine. Yeah that was my read on Jupiter's dad too. Combine that fact with how she talks about her mom, and it does seem like a big contribution to Jupiter's issues. I don't think you need to spoiler that considering it's discussion-type stuff you're saying and we're finished the game, anyways.
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 05:22 |
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tiistai posted:
The radio part makes more sense now but I still don't know what I read!
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 11:12 |
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Oh my god. "Monster of the week". It never really clicked for me before just now that the whole camp, the whole society, is built around causing people to fall, demonizing them, using them to affirm the Rightness of society, and lather-rinse-repeat. The groups always being three makes perfect sense in that context. Because it's an odd number, someone will always be othered. The only way to avoid it is to become like Group South, perfectly homogenous to the point of having no individual identity. The message is clear. "Being an individual is dangerous. Having ideas is dangerous. Why not just become part of society? It's easier that way. Be a good girl."
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 14:12 |
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Poison Mushroom posted:Oh my god. It also fits with the concept of the Devil as the Adversary, essentially a force created by God to question and oppose him, and yet nonetheless hated despite being thrust into the role. What strikes me about the Team West dynamic is that, beyond just being an odd number to force a loser, it seems to have been structured so that each member stands in opposition to the other two in some capacity -- Venus's open vulnerability compared to Jupiter and Neptune's rougher facades, Neptune's resistance to being "good" versus Venus and Jupiter's striving for it, and Jupiter's self-harming streak versus her team's survival instincts. It's a narrative conceit, of course, but it makes me wonder if the captain and whoever else is in charge of Summer Scouts is deliberately structuring the teams to work against themselves and produce a Devil. The concept that these kids might actually bond and become stronger together was obviously not considered and represents an apocalyptic scenario, which is pretty evocative of just how much marginalized people can be written off by a system deliberately sabotaging them.
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 14:42 |
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tiistai posted:The radio part makes more sense now but I still don't know what I read! It's all imagery to describe the world this takes place in. It's painting bits of the Midwest in the first two, and above is a pretty cool interpretation of monsters of the week (and group south drat. I never thought of them that way) but the sailor moon ref could also be a teenage nostalgia thing, like when you want to go home and catch up on your favorite show. There's a lot you could read into with "dubious apologies" I don't know what it means for sure. It's all to set the tone of where we are. I mean they COULD have actually ground up all this stuff for incense if you want to believe that, weirder things did happen later, but that's not what matters imo
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 17:05 |
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Yo guys Mia Schwartz uploaded the final spritework for WKTD for people to have access to for personal use. Check it out here: http://miaschwartz.tumblr.com/post/141218854220/i-see-a-lot-of-people-using-screencaps-etc-to
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# ? Mar 17, 2016 22:15 |
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WORDS BY THE THREAD (AND BY ME TOO SOMEWHERE IN THERE) Here's some of the analysis on the characters and personal connections made to the game by the thread. It's a lot of spoilery words so you have been warned. If you don't wanna read all this, then I recommend you go straight to the end at least. Before any of the endings: TKMobile posted:While this may well be an exercise in futility or just plain thinking too hard on the subject, I am starting to wonder what kind of Christian camp this is, beyond 'disturbingly bad.' Couple of things on Jupiter's wristband: Thuryl posted:Yeah, I picked up on that too. For those who don't know (not a spoiler exactly since it's not addressed in-game as far as I've seen, but it does give significant new information about Jupiter): wearing elastic around your wrist and snapping it when you're under emotional stress is a common replacement behaviour for people who self-harm and want to stop. Gutter Owl posted:Elastic or rubber bands are also often used as a sort of misguided aversion therapy, particularly associated with a certain kind of Christian guilt. After Jupiter's ending: Keldulas posted:Even with all the supernatural elements, it really feels like it's centered around a kid breaking because of the stresses, of the pressures around her. The others had to leave her to it, on both her request and what was expected of them from the rest of society. Ultimately, there can only be so much one can bear before they break. Sir_Faolan_Hound posted:I got we know the devil when it first came out and honestly I love the game, though I didn't get some of the stuff until I replayed it like twice. As someone who for most of his teenage life during the summer went to a camp like the summer scouts I relate to the main characters big time. Tazzypillar posted:Oh god I'm thrilled--I was worried when I saw this thread that the LP would turn out to be complete already. As it turns out, this is the best possible time for me to show. A bit on the 7 minutes in heaven scene with Venus and Jupiter: Lurks With Wolves posted:
Keldulas posted:Well Jupiter's drunk, and emotionally vulnerable at this point too. With the writing as presented I really don't believe that Jupiter doesn't know what's up with 7 Minutes in Heaven, really. And the choice really is presented with Jupiter making the choice, and it being whether or not she lost her nerve to ask Neptune into the closet. She says it herself, Venus is safe. Like a puppy, something that doesn't have any desires attached to it. After Jupiter and Neptune's endings: Gutter Owl posted:WKTD isn't about discovering "secrets." Rather, it's about the things that drive our scared and lonely teens into being the Other. Tazzypillar posted:^^^i lov e this post so much im going to print it out and eat it, oh my god. Yes. Yes. Keldulas posted:As per the other ending, I think I need to sit here and just let things settle for me. After Venus's ending: Vexrm posted:I've been lurk watching this from the start. Venus finally got me. I was Venus. Kadorhal posted:I was never in any of the bible youth stuff - I just went to church every week with my grandma when I was real little - but I definitely feel this. Unless I was being made fun of I didn't matter, no matter what I was doing, I was just there until they wanted to pick up where they left off or I did something else that was worth a temporary laugh. And nobody really cared, either - teachers never noticed unless I had it with the other kids' poo poo and exploded at them so I was the only one who was ever punished, the few friends I managed to get started leaving me almost as soon as people started making fun of them too, and when I finally did end up seeing a guidance counselor it wasn't over any of the actual issues going on, but over some comics I started drawing in a notebook because my dad and step-mom didn't understand them (said counselor actually found them pretty funny). I ended up moving back to the first town I remember living in to live with my mom and finish high school somewhere else, and while the insults were much less ubiquitous, the constant sense that I didn't belong - that nobody wanted me to belong - was jacked up to more than make up for it. Robindaybird posted:And I see a bit of myself in Venus too, I got lead to believe that crying, getting angry, telling on people who hurt me and bully me was useless and only made it worse - and I don't like making people upset, even if I had every right to rip them a new one. So I kept it bottled in and in and in until the valve pressure couldn't hold it in anymore and I'd explode. Pollyanna posted:[...]aside from it hitting too close to home, I also found it fascinating on a character-analysis basis. There's some interesting theming here, e.g. the "shone too bright and fell from heaven" similarity to the Lucifer character (in the Shin Megami Tensei sense), the covering in opened eyes, feathers in lungs and eyes to fly, all that. It's heavily connected to enlightenment, knowledge, and freedom, and it's no coincidence that those things are also correlated with being considered demonic in common American Christianity. Sir_Faolan_Hound posted:Probably out of all the endings it was Venus's that made me take a break from the game for awhile, because I empathized with her so drat much and not just as somebody who is also trans. Tazzypillar posted:I do want to add to the chorus of voices crying "Venus is ME!!". I related to Venus the most out of everyone (Though Jupiter also really spoke to me). I still kind of struggle with anger, because people I'm close to are generally angry at the world and all the bullshit and while I can definitely understand the sentiment I can't often muster the actual feeling of it? I guess my perspective on people naturally just breeds an understanding that stops it, but it's still frustrating because it doesn't mean anything is any less hosed. Poison Mushroom posted:[...]on some level, [Jupiter and Neptune] know they're as complicit in Venus' issues as everyone else, and denial is easier than facing it. Denial that there's anything wrong is kind of the default state in WKTD, after all. Robindaybird posted:I feel like the devils here are three different approaches to their upbringing. After the LP was complete: Pyradox posted:Absolutely. It's an incredibly cathartic ending in a way that other games rarely manage to achieve. It's not as simple as "you defeated all the bad guys", because their conflicts weren't that simple. Games are so often individualistic power fantasies, but it's so rare that you get one where winning isn't about being the hero, but about being someone you can actually live with. Gutter Owl posted:Now that I've watched this ending for the, iunno, fourth or fifth time, and had reason to write down my thoughts on each character, I think it's particularly interesting which of our girls discovers the devil in her first. Not brash, bitter Neptune, but shy and submissive Venus. Keldulas posted:A lot of smart words being said in regards to the ending stuff. As it is, here are my two cents. Arcade Rabbit posted:The cool thing about this story is that the messages and characters are certainly subtle and have a lot of nuances, but it still gets the feeling across even to people who don't exactly share their situations. I, a gay Christian, played it with my straight nonchristian friend on his laptop one afternoon. He'd bought it but hadn't played it yet, and I was about halfway through the thread by then so I convinced him to pop it open and we blew through it in about two days. There were certainly a few moments where, for lack of a better term, I explained some of the symbolism or nuances behind certain liens and actions. But in the end, we were both able to enjoy it and come away with a deep understanding of the characters and situation. Even though neither of our situations are particularly similar to theirs, the writing and conveyed feelings were enough for us to feel satisfied with it and the ending. In my opinion, being able to convey such complex feelings and realizations to someone like my friend who had no grounding in the situation beforehand at all is the hallmark of a truly great story. I'd be very interested in seeing what, if anything, the creators of this game choose to do next. Tendales posted:I can't really say that I see myself in any of the characters, but I think that's a good thing. Just because this game isn't about someone like me doesn't mean that it isn't for someone like me. It's a chance to glimpse the perspective of some confused kids trying to deal with being crammed into a mold of what is 'good' and 'right' that doesn't fit them, and empathize with them. Flac posted:Had a couple days without much internet so I put some thought into god’s role in the game. In the LP I added a lot of background info relating to this, so maybe it'll help clarify that. Poison Mushroom posted:Oh my god. Antivehicular posted:^^^^It also fits with the concept of the Devil as the Adversary, essentially a force created by God to question and oppose him, and yet nonetheless hated despite being thrust into the role. Some good final words: Gutter Owl posted:Thank you for this LP, Flac. We Know the Devil was, and is, a deeply significant game for me. I played through it in an evening, but it hasn't left me for months. I will die with these kids in my heart. I'm so glad to see it reach more people.
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 00:53 |
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^^^Holy poo poo. If you want to be removed from this monster let me know. Some links added to the OP: Aevee Bee's article on her thirteen rules for worldbuilding which was posted earlier in the thread. It explains alot about the game I think, even though it was written before. and an interview with her on the game, on how WKTD came to be and her thinking behind the characters .....and i dont know what else i should add right now, so here's some other interesting bits: 1: Aevee Bee is gonna talk at GDC tomorrow, go her!!! 2: Tazzypillar posted:Yo guys Mia Schwartz uploaded the final spritework for WKTD for people to have access to for personal use. And Mia said she'll round up all the WKTD concept art she did and release that eventually too. I have CONFIRMED there will be doodles of group west as catgirls in it 3: Jo Fu, the tech artist for the game who works with Date Nighto, said they're working on selling shirts of Group South guy. Nobody knows when but they got a deal with a distributor
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 01:00 |
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Tazzypillar posted:Yo guys Mia Schwartz uploaded the final spritework for WKTD for people to have access to for personal use. Pulling these into GIMP2.0 is interesting. (an example) Mia's organized the layers for ease of use. You can really pick and choose which ever combination as long as it Neptune (for example) isn't going full devil or coughing. Making new faces look natural is slightly tricky. Best to use the pencil tool than the brush, because all the images are hard line. I just now realized there's only 4 colors (shades of gray) and a transparency to keep the file size of the PNG low. It's kind of brilliant from my own sloppy jpg perspective. Like she designed it before she designed it! I don't know about other programs, but GIMP2.0 can open these Photoshop files with no trouble. Neat!
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 01:49 |
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I'm glad they finally got their very own transformation sequence.
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 13:13 |
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Good idea with the compilation post. Reading the responses and insights as the LP progressed was one of the best parts of this thread.
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 13:58 |
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You should do a running tally to estimate how much money Aevee got from just people admitting to buying the game because of this LP. She got 13 bucks from me.
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# ? Mar 18, 2016 23:38 |
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Yeah, I've been lurking the thread for a while because of a lack of things to say, but the red endibg brought tears to my shriveled heart. I'm phone posting right now, but I'll buy as soon as I get home.
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# ? Mar 19, 2016 02:02 |
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I put $6.66 towards the soundtrack.
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# ? Mar 19, 2016 06:46 |
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death .cab for qt posted:You should do a running tally to estimate how much money Aevee got from just people admitting to buying the game because of this LP. Kavak posted:I put $6.66 towards the soundtrack. that counts in my book!!!! In other news I just stumbled upon this: Asenath Mason, from Sol Tenebrarum - The Occult Study of Melancholy posted:The black bile, as a corrupted form of blood, was the symbol of death, darkness, black magic and witchcraft. It was believed to cause gloomy disposition, depression and insanity. It darkened the light of the soul, led to obsessions, lethargy, diseases and finally also to death. Among “melancholy people”, meaning those who were most severely exposed to the influence of the black bile, one could find all sort of social outcasts, murderers, witches, necromancers, black magicians, etc. The black bile was the cause of all weakness and sin, and it was believed that when the first humans tasted fruits from the Tree of Knowledge, their blood was corrupted and turned black, which also happens to each man who succumbs to Satan’s temptation. I wish I found this earlier my god. Neptune is pure goth This makes me wonder if I missed anything about Jupiter but god was very, very vague about her so I haven't been able to find anything Flac fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Mar 19, 2016 |
# ? Mar 19, 2016 07:11 |
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Flac posted:Couldn't tell you how much they raked in from it but there's at least 20 people who said they bought the game or planned to buy it 'cause of the thread. plus a few that said they told their friends about it/gave them copies Melancholy was historically associated with artists and poets.
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# ? Mar 19, 2016 08:05 |
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and being goth IS an art. it all comes together
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# ? Mar 19, 2016 08:59 |
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Anyone know how to watch/find a recording of the WKTD post-morten Aeeve Bee did at GDC? I tried looking it up but nada, so far. Maybe it takes a while for this kind of thing to be uploaded?
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# ? Mar 19, 2016 17:29 |
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Flac posted:Couldn't tell you how much they raked in from it but there's at least 20 people who said they bought the game or planned to buy it 'cause of the thread. plus a few that said they told their friends about it/gave them copies I bought it as soon as the thread said it was out on Steam, right before the first ending was posted, and I just bought it for a friend for her birthday, so add a couple more to that counter.
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# ? Mar 21, 2016 16:15 |
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I enjoyed the game on an intellectual level, but the only part where I felt an immediate emotional connection/resonance was the True Ending. I am not certain what this says about myself, but I'll have to think about it.
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# ? Mar 23, 2016 06:23 |
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I'm way late on this thread but thank you so much for playing an interesting game. I'm happy they all brought Hell to Earth.
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# ? Mar 24, 2016 02:01 |
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I'm real glad I stuck with this LP. It was a big back and forth between loving how weird it was and hating how everyone talked like they were writing a post on tumblr. Then the seven minutes in heaven scene with Venus happened and I immediately got that character resonance everyone had been talking about and suddenly everything was fantastic.
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# ? Mar 24, 2016 16:04 |
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I haven't read it yet but Aeeve Bee literally just posted a postmortem on We Know the Devil on ZEAL https://medium.com/mammon-machine-z...ce1a#.9p6a0yfop
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# ? Mar 27, 2016 01:22 |
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Ooooh good poo poo. Still waiting on the video from the GDC event but it's probably gonna be a while, if it comes out at all. Aevee's script says they were drinking peach schnapps at 11pm?? that sounds much less bad than what i imagined but maybe it really does taste that bad
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# ? Mar 27, 2016 04:46 |
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Flac posted:Ooooh good poo poo. Still waiting on the video from the GDC event but it's probably gonna be a while, if it comes out at all. In my experience, there's nice peach schnapps and then there's peach schnapps you can get for $6 a bottle. Not hard to guess which one Neptune would have bought.
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# ? Mar 27, 2016 09:43 |
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I just imagined they had a cheap bottle of fruit-flavored Karkov or something. That's definitely slightly sweet paint thinner
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# ? Mar 27, 2016 13:14 |
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And if you're not used to alcohol, most are going to taste pretty awful on your first go, especially if it's a stronger, cheaper variety. Folks once bought a bottom-shelf vodka for a hurricane, and I tasted more "Rubbing alcohol" than anything else in that mix.
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# ? Mar 27, 2016 18:39 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:42 |
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This LP has been archived. Thanks for all the positive reception and thoughts on it, it was lots of fun to show this game off and spread the word for it in some way.
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# ? Apr 5, 2016 13:47 |