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Rocketpriest
Nov 28, 2006
Alias: Non-Demoninational Minister Capable of Sub-Atmospheric Flight

Ghosthotel posted:

Lucifer the comic is a fantasy epic about free will vs predestination that they turned into a procedural cop drama.

And thank Christ they did, because trying to emulate the comic on network television would have been an unwatchable mess. The best issues are the ones where Lucifer appears in a single panel to go 'Oh, what are you guys doing in here? Get out of my house' or whatever and that won't fly when you're trying to get an audience invested in a lead. I'm perfectly content with 'the devil solves mysteries' as a television show concept, and my only dumb comic book nerd complaint is why would they even use the name Mazikeen for whatever this awful bartender character is, fuuuuuck. I understand that budget constraints mean you can't have that kind of make-up/cgi treatment for a character that is likely relegated to being a glorified extra, but goddamn. Maz deserves better. It's not even like Mazikeen has name recognition for the general audience; they could have used any drat name.

I have the sinking feeling that this show is going to go the way of Forever and I'll make the mistake of watching its first season, get invested, and then it will be gone

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Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

I'm hoping it sticks around as well. I like the idea, and the show's lead is having a blast playing the literal devil.

I miss Forever as well. It was an awesome show that needed a second season, but from what I've read about what would happen in the second season, it might have not gotten a third. There was talk of a younger immortal love interest, as well as bringing Adam back as the main bad guy again.

As much as I liked the show, that's getting a little too close to Highlander and Richie sticking around for my tastes.

At least I have my replica of Henry's autopsy knife

Spidder
Jan 9, 2005


Rocketpriest posted:

why would they even use the name Mazikeen for whatever this awful bartender character is, fuuuuuck

Why pretend this is based on Neil Gaiman's characters in the first place? Like what's even the point of having a source material if you don't actually use it? This whole thing is dumb imo.

Ghosthotel
Dec 27, 2008


Pretty sure they could've made a show about "Devil Helps Solve Crimes" without having to actually own the rights to the source material which makes the whole thing even more confusing.

THF13
Sep 26, 2007

Keep an adversary in the dark about what you're capable of, and he has to assume the worst.


I assume both basing it on a comic book and turning it into a crime procedural were how whoever pitched the show actually got it greenlit.

Comic book shows are hot, procedurals are safe.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Spidder posted:

Why pretend this is based on Neil Gaiman's characters in the first place? Like what's even the point of having a source material if you don't actually use it? This whole thing is dumb imo.

I guess having it be "based on" something successful shows that it's a safe bet, so you just find a thing that's sort of almost what you want to do and claim you're adapting it to get your idea approved. See also: iZombie, Dark Matter, etc.

Spidder
Jan 9, 2005


THF13 posted:

Comic book shows are hot, procedurals are safe.

So the producer or whatever didn't even read the god drat thing (the comic), and then the script (which shits all over the comic), before greenlighting the pitch? Or even realize this is not a mega-popular 50 years old superhero comic that will sell on title alone, but a thing that won Eisners and poo poo due to its actual quality as a comic book, and has fans that enjoy it for what it is and not some other, completely different kind of thing? How does that even make sense? I know TV is stupid and shallow etc but this is too much.

Spidder fucked around with this message at Jan 28, 2016 around 04:09

Pan Dulce
Jan 4, 2011

Beautiful cinnamon roll too good for this world, too pure


Okay. So I get if you were hoping for a straight-up Lucifer comic reenactment for television, you might get angry, but the ads had been up for AWHILE. You knew it was going to be a procedural. Even Gaiman knew what they were doing with his work and was fine with it; I think he even wrote about how the OMM protest was bullshit and that he liked the show.

Besides, treatment of Lucifer as no such a bad guy have been up since Paradise Lost. It isn't a new concept, but the show did it well enough, considering how lovely pilots usually are. I'm so happy Ellis chose to dump his role in Once Upon a Time and do this. He's infinitely more enigmatic in this.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

I don't think people are upset by it not following the comic, but rather are annoyed by how bland and rote this procedural detective show is.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

Yeah, nobody gives a poo poo that it isn't following the comics or that they are making the devil less of an evil figure, they care that it's another loving rote cop drama trying to be sold on the strength of it's lead. When people start unironically making the terrible show ideas from 30 Rock [And the difference between this and "God Cop" is razor thin], it's not a great sign.

And the Satan of Paradise Lost is a whiny bitch with daddy issues, nobody needs more of that guy.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Boogaleeboo posted:

they care that it's another loving rote cop drama trying to be sold on the strength of it's lead.

Why? If you don't like this sort of show, and you aren't a big fan of the comic who's disappointed that it isn't that, what's your investment? There's tons of stuff on TV, just don't watch this show if you don't want to.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Drifter posted:

I don't think people are upset by it not following the comic, but rather are annoyed by how bland and rote this procedural detective show is.

The dude upset at the Eisner winning comic book not being adapted correctly seems to be upset about it not following the comic.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Being upset at a TV show simply for existing isn't reasonable.

Being upset that a lovely TV show is incredibly successful is reasonable. (which this isn't)

Being upset that a show based on your beloved comic isn't a faithful adaptation is only reasonable if the comic would have otherwise been faithfully adapted, which is not the case here.

Pan Dulce
Jan 4, 2011

Beautiful cinnamon roll too good for this world, too pure


Boogaleeboo posted:

And the Satan of Paradise Lost is a whiny bitch with daddy issues, nobody needs more of that guy.

Some people are prone to disagreement with that statement:

Kin posted:

This show is formulaic crime solving garbage for idiots except it's already jumped the shark by making the lead the loving devil.

The likes of Supernatural did Lucifer with daddy issues much better

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

Tiggum posted:

Why? If you don't like this sort of show, and you aren't a big fan of the comic who's disappointed that it isn't that, what's your investment? There's tons of stuff on TV, just don't watch this show if you don't want to.

Because for every show like this that gets made, another show isn't. That's how it works, they need X amount of time filled and they order up the series who think will work best. It's not like if this didn't get made nothing would, bland cliche poo poo actively takes away time that would have went to something else. Then there are secondary issues, like how some people feel this is now a vaguely genre vaguely comic book show, so if it fails nobody is going to think it's because it was another loving cookie cutter male lead with wacky quirk bounces off more stoic female lead yawn-fest. They'll think it's because it's a comic book show. And so forth. People can be mildly invested in shows they hate when they actively influence the entire landscape of television watching. "Quirky male lead with [blank] special issue bounces off more stoic female lead" is pretty deep in the fabric of the tv landscape, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't piss people off when producers think it's a magic formula that will ensure success.

Pan Dulce posted:

Some people are prone to disagreement with that statement:

Supernatural works because it's explicitly about the daddy issues, and also it's not a "No, gently caress you dad" Satan. It's a Satan that loves God and hates Man for their incompetence, stupidity, and weakness. When you acknowledge a Satan that is explicitly a wounded child, at least you are actually dealing with the themes at play. When you pretend someone is a charismatic rebel when all they want is a loving hug from the old man? Not so much.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

Wasn't there a storyline in the comic where Lucifer made his own universe and dropped some aborted baby in there that grew up to be a god of some sort, and it killed a shitload of angels that went in to destroy said universe because it was not one of God's creations?

Cause yea, I can't really see that being marketed to prime time.

If you are going to take a stand on a show not being like the comic and how that ruins it for you, maybe pick either a better comic, or a better show, or a network that isn't broadcast. Something like the upcoming Preacher show maybe?

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Boogaleeboo posted:

Because for every show like this that gets made, another show isn't. That's how it works, they need X amount of time filled and they order up the series who think will work best. It's not like if this didn't get made nothing would, bland cliche poo poo actively takes away time that would have went to something else.
Yeah, but almost certainly not something you'd think was any better.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Then there are secondary issues, like how some people feel this is now a vaguely genre vaguely comic book show, so if it fails nobody is going to think it's because it was another loving cookie cutter male lead with wacky quirk bounces off more stoic female lead yawn-fest. They'll think it's because it's a comic book show.
Pretty sure in 2016 "comic book show" and "police procedural with a quirky lead" are seen as about equally good bets and that's not likely to change any time soon.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

Tiggum posted:

Yeah, but almost certainly not something you'd think was any better.

Like 30 years ago that was more of a point, but now even random Joes can get some idea of what pilots are being shopped around. So you can objectively say "Somebody passed on this idea, and gave a spot to this one instead". And of course just because a cast and crew is filled with folks you like doesn't mean that the finished product works, but it's something. Especially to folks who already know they don't like what's shown of a show that did get picked up. I mean it's not my bag of tea, but something like Crazy Ex-Girlfriend got shopped around to basically everyone before the CW picked it up, and it's lead won a Golden Globe and Critics Choice Award. When good tv gets ignored so people can make cliche pap, it's annoying to anyone that likes interesting tv.

quote:

Pretty sure in 2016 "comic book show" and "police procedural with a quirky lead" are seen as about equally good bets and that's not likely to change any time soon.

You say that, but for the longest time there's been ABC airing badly performing pity shows from God Disney, Netflix prestige dramas, and the CW and it's DC block. Everything else sucked wind and failed inside a year. If Supergirl makes it to season 2 that will actually buck a trend.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Boogaleeboo posted:

You say that, but for the longest time there's been ABC airing badly performing pity shows from God Disney, Netflix prestige dramas, and the CW and it's DC block. Everything else sucked wind and failed inside a year. If Supergirl makes it to season 2 that will actually buck a trend.

Are you kidding? EVERYBODY wants a piece of the superhero pie. Supergirl's gonna be staying for a while.

Ghosthotel
Dec 27, 2008


Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

Wasn't there a storyline in the comic where Lucifer made his own universe and dropped some aborted baby in there that grew up to be a god of some sort, and it killed a shitload of angels that went in to destroy said universe because it was not one of God's creations?

Cause yea, I can't really see that being marketed to prime time.

If you are going to take a stand on a show not being like the comic and how that ruins it for you, maybe pick either a better comic, or a better show, or a network that isn't broadcast. Something like the upcoming Preacher show maybe?

It's actually a lot more unmarketable than that. He get's the aborted baby from a priestess who was cursed by her gods because she got pregnant, so they caused her to miscarry and to live the same day for eternity so she had a miscarriage every day for a thousand years before Lucifer grants her death in exchange for her 1000 year old pissed off baby ghost. Not exactly prime time Fox material.

I doubt any kind of TV adaptation would be able to faithfully adapt a lot of what happens in the comic, but I can see the frustration when the one adaptation that does make it to TV ends up being a procedural cop drama. Simple solution here is to just not watch the show, the comics are still there and still really good.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Boogaleeboo posted:


You say that, but for the longest time there's been ABC airing badly performing pity shows from God Disney, Netflix prestige dramas, and the CW and it's DC block. Everything else sucked wind and failed inside a year. If Supergirl makes it to season 2 that will actually buck a trend.

And Gotham.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST


Oh Jesus, that thing. I really did manage to forget it existed for awhile. Thanks for reminding me.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011


This was really stupid and yet somehow strangely entertaining anyway. I'll probably keep watching it.

Aleph Null
Jun 10, 2008


Wolpertinger posted:

This was really stupid and yet somehow strangely entertaining anyway. I'll probably keep watching it.

Same way I feel about Supergirl. And I'll keep watching both.

Pan Dulce
Jan 4, 2011

Beautiful cinnamon roll too good for this world, too pure


Boogaleeboo posted:

If Supergirl makes it to season 2 that will actually buck a trend.

Supergirl's been getting 1.8 in the demo, which is good enough to keep. Lucifer got a 2.4. Judging from the prime time slot behind X-Files, it's going to keep it around this range for a couple of weeks.

bio347
Oct 29, 2012


Agents of SHIELD has me unreasonably optimistic that something that starts as a rote procedural can get blown the hell up and become more (and also be super-awesome at the same time).

Probably won't happen, or at least not to that degree, but I want to believe.

Jew it to it!
Sep 19, 2007
Wit to be input later.

This is the most TVIV of threads. Seriously, get a grip. It is a pilot, it will either get better or worse and you can vent your angst then.

Astrofig
Oct 26, 2009


I liked it.

Desperado Bones
Aug 29, 2009

Cute, adorable, and creepy at the same time!


Astrofig posted:

I liked it.

Me too.


So, according to the promo for the second episode Is he going to start turning mortal? Losing his powers or something? I hope is not a single episode problem and is gradually happening through the series.

GuyUpNorth
Apr 29, 2014

Witty phrases on random basis

If they actually adapted that subplot from early series, it's a tiny step in the right direction. If it happens, he better pop newly-regained wings. Hopefully have even Michael show up, even for something like "hello, brother" moment because I can't see it going further into the story of his solo.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

If you are going to take a stand on a show not being like the comic and how that ruins it for you, maybe pick either a better comic, or a better show, or a network that isn't broadcast. Something like the upcoming Preacher show maybe?

There are't many better (semi long running) comics than Lucifer, to be fair. Lucifer is a much better read than Preacher (although Preacher is much better to adapt to TV).

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

Eh, I phrased it a bit badly. I meant "better" as in "better for TV/mass media adaption", not "better" as in "this comic is poo poo".

Sober
Nov 19, 2011

First touch: Life.
Second touch: Dead again. Forever.

Crusty Nutsack posted:

This is basically a cross between Forever and Rush, two of my favorite shows so this is pretty much my jam (Tom Ellis with his real accent doesn't hurt either)

I had no idea this was more comic book crap, ugh. I should just assume every new show on TV is based on a comic now

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

I'm hoping it sticks around as well. I like the idea, and the show's lead is having a blast playing the literal devil.

I miss Forever as well. It was an awesome show that needed a second season, but from what I've read about what would happen in the second season, it might have not gotten a third. There was talk of a younger immortal love interest, as well as bringing Adam back as the main bad guy again.

As much as I liked the show, that's getting a little too close to Highlander and Richie sticking around for my tastes.

At least I have my replica of Henry's autopsy knife

Glad there are a few people in here who liked Forever.

Which was also a cop show helmed by someone who was somewhat supernatural-esque and stuff. And the pilot was fairly rote but the lead carried it with their performance. And then the writing caught up and it got fairly good balancing everything while still being a cop show. Being a cop show really is only an insult if all you're gonna do with it is be a boring procedural with nothing fun or interesting to offer. At least with the Lucifer pilot Tom Ellis oozes charisma. That's worth coming back to IMO to see where they take it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly representing vanilla legends 1994-2014


Ghosthotel posted:

It's actually a lot more unmarketable than that. He get's the aborted baby from a priestess who was cursed by her gods because she got pregnant, so they caused her to miscarry and to live the same day for eternity so she had a miscarriage every day for a thousand years before Lucifer grants her death in exchange for her 1000 year old pissed off baby ghost. Not exactly prime time Fox material.

I doubt any kind of TV adaptation would be able to faithfully adapt a lot of what happens in the comic, but I can see the frustration when the one adaptation that does make it to TV ends up being a procedural cop drama. Simple solution here is to just not watch the show, the comics are still there and still really good.

As a fan of the comic, I would be satisfied with something that didn't necessarily follow the stories of the book but at least kept the characters true. Lucifer doesn't give a drat about humanity but he does respond when events interfere with him. Instead of "I'm the naughty sexy not-evil Devil" you could stick to that and have him get involved in the crime solving only because it all pieces together into a greater supernatural conspiracy. As for Mazikeen, in the comics she wears a half-mask to pose as human so you'd only have to show what she really is once - and a key early part of her plot is that she's healed to look totally normal anyway. The only one they've got right is Amenadiel, who is a complete angry dildo in the comic and is definitely a bad guy, but even then there's no reason for Lucifer to react to his threats or anger in the way he does.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Ninurta posted:

This is the most TVIV of threads. Seriously, get a grip. It is a pilot, it will either get better or worse and you can vent your angst then.

You can't judge a show based upon its currently released episodes - you have to divine its future potential? I didn't realize. My bad.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Sober posted:

Glad there are a few people in here who liked Forever.

Which was also a cop show helmed by someone who was somewhat supernatural-esque and stuff. And the pilot was fairly rote but the lead carried it with their performance. And then the writing caught up and it got fairly good balancing everything while still being a cop show. Being a cop show really is only an insult if all you're gonna do with it is be a boring procedural with nothing fun or interesting to offer. At least with the Lucifer pilot Tom Ellis oozes charisma. That's worth coming back to IMO to see where they take it.
I really liked Forever's pilot, but episode 2 failed to continue with the mystery mentioned at the end of the pilot and they failed to do the Warehouse 13 thing of using relics and antiques in their cases, so I bailed an episode or two after his nemesis arrived.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Drifter posted:

You can't judge a show based upon its currently released episodes - you have to divine its future potential? I didn't realize. My bad.

The first episode or two of a show is often pretty weak compared with the later ones. After three or four episodes you can generally get a pretty good idea of where it's going, but unless it's really egregious (or just a premise/style you're just not into) then it's pretty hard to tell much from the first episode.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Desperado Bones posted:

Me too.


So, according to the promo for the second episode Is he going to start turning mortal? Losing his powers or something? I hope is not a single episode problem and is gradually happening through the series.

I'm on the fence. Lucifer (the actor and character) was ... okay, he's enjoying it and that's good. He was fun. The girl cop (actress and character) was actually pretty good. But the writers laid it on too heavy that she is "special". I realize subtlety is uncommon in Prime Time but it was really heavy. The rest was kinda mediocre. He's the loving devil, I sort of expect some badassery and frankly even more arrogance.

Also if he turns mortal, I'm out, because there is nothing left at that point except buddy cop show.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly representing vanilla legends 1994-2014


wormil posted:

I'm on the fence. Lucifer (the actor and character) was ... okay, he's enjoying it and that's good. He was fun. The girl cop (actress and character) was actually pretty good. But the writers laid it on too heavy that she is "special". I realize subtlety is uncommon in Prime Time but it was really heavy.

I thought Lucifer couldn't get her to reveal her innermost desire because she's already got it.

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Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


Is there a daughter called Elaine?

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