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Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Stefan Prodan posted:

I think the thing that keeps getting me killed the most is somehow being seen through walls or something when I have vision on all the remaining enemies through my reaper, I have gotcha again installed, I move someone with no indicators that I'll be seen and for some reason I've now tripped a pod that now runs into cover where my reaper was, exposing him, which exposes the other pod, and I'm just sitting there screaming WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM YOU STUPID loving GAME and that keeps ruining iron man runs for me lol

honestly this is the reason I play ironman mode with cheats enabled, and if the game pulls some bullshit like this I use the command TTC (teleport to cursor) to undo some of the BS

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Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Stefan Prodan posted:

I think the thing that keeps getting me killed the most is somehow being seen through walls or something when I have vision on all the remaining enemies through my reaper, I have gotcha again installed, I move someone with no indicators that I'll be seen and for some reason I've now tripped a pod that now runs into cover where my reaper was, exposing him, which exposes the other pod, and I'm just sitting there screaming WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM YOU STUPID loving GAME and that keeps ruining iron man runs for me lol

One thing that helped me doing my Ironman runs was recognizing that the LOS system isn't consistent, so I shouldn't put myself in a position where I was closely relying on the vision rules.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Is there ever a good way to take/use suppression? It just seems like trash

Infinite Karma
Oct 23, 2004
Good as dead







If you're not going full melee Blademaster + Shadowstep + Bladestorm + Untouchable + Reaper on a Ranger, what are you even doing?

You get to move your full distance every turn and still attack. With the Chosen Katana, you can't miss and ignore armor, so you can pretty easily predict who you can and can't kill to trigger Untouchable. Throw a Hazmat Vest on there to not get nailed by automatic status effects. If you kill an enemy, you get a free Templar force field and easily soak up one shot per turn, guaranteeing that nobody in your squad has to even roll the dice on getting hit. Plus every so often you can get to a choke point where multiple enemies will run past you and all get annihilated, or you see Chryssalids and they all commit suicide auto-dying to your Ranger. My Ranger didn't have the most kills in my last campaign, but he was 100% my MVP by busting through cover and flushing out enemies and keeping fire focused on him.

Psi-Operatives are really strong, but don't have nearly the mobility or action economy of a Ranger. Both of them are extremely strong though.

rideANDxORdie
Jun 10, 2010


Having played both a fuckton of this and Battle Brothers (great game, highly recommended if you haven't tried it, follows a similar strategy overworld/turn based combat as XCOM) I would love XCOM3 to have an "XCOM Origin" system similar to what Battle Brothers did with the DLC where you could play with the difficulty and flavor of the game by changing the beginning. Gatecrasher loving sucks to do over and over, especially on ironman and harder difficulties where you really do need to basically perfect Gatecrasher so you play it over and over. Battle Brothers had exactly one starting point on release and you would have to run the same two missions over for each company just like gatecrasher. Then, they added different company origins so you could play as a small group of expensive gladiators, or an army of peasant and lowborn militia, or a group of northern barbarians, all with different starting warriors and tweaks to the strategic.

How cool would it be to be able to choose to start your XCOM campaign by running a Chimera Squad-style breach where you choose whether to escape and start XCOM over again with a group of veteran soldiers or some engineers and a few advanced explosives or some scientists and a few higher-tier guns or armor? They've come really close to this with Chimera Squad and the mini-campaigns they included for the anniversary DLC.

I just wish procedural or run-based games spent more time diversifying the early game, especially in XCOM when it's so pivotal. Running with four rookies with grenades or maybe a squaddie or two in the early game is so boring. Adding the ability to pick at least your starting faction soldier added so much more diversity to kicking off an XCOM campaign, I'd like to see more like that.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Stefan Prodan posted:

Is there ever a good way to take/use suppression? It just seems like trash

Suppression always removes Overwatch, so that's one use case. It also is good for reducing the aim of enemies that you can't take down, like a minor flashbang. I'd rather suppress an enemy than shoot it down to half health. Demolition has its adherents, particularly those who are leaning into the heavy gunner abilities and don't want to carry grenades around just to bust cover.

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

Suppression is weird because it was really good in EU/EW (when you couldn't even reload and maintain suppression), but never really found its place in the sequel.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



I took both Suppression and Demolition on different Grenadiers to compare them, but I don't think I ever really ended up using either. That said I think you need to have messed up quite a bit to get into a position where Suppression is actually "useful", whereas Demolition I can see having edge cases if you've spent your grenades and still want to remove some cover, even if it means rolling an 80% chance.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


I've gone through a couple classic difficulty runs and I needed to use demolition roughly once per campaign. This is in direct comparison to suppression which I have used to achieve useful results exactly zero times.


Edit- This is just me spitballing here but Suppression should be a means of keeping Spectres from bodyjacking your troops on their turn in addition to what it does now.

reignofevil fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Feb 17, 2021

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Ok I suspected both abilities were bad but suppression is just worse, and it sounds like that's the case.

I'm doing better on this run! Doing ironman except for once where I alt+f4 because I did a literal misclick, when I was trying to go to a tile and it was like jumping my cursor back and forth for no reason, and I haven't lost a man yet several months in. Hopefully I can keep up the momentum!

I managed to either flawless or like one injury the first 3-4 missions and that helped a ton. Also just rolling a reaper start instead of Templar was a big deal too, reaper definitely seems like the most user friendly starter hero, although I saw a speedrunner say that he thought templar was the strongest start since it makes it so that you only really need to kill 2/3 of most pods instead of all 3, with parry.

edit: lmao I misread a map and thought the door to the VIP was on the opposite side that it was and while I completed the mission, my insanely good templar got Left Behind (TM)

hopefully I can rescue him at some point

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Feb 17, 2021

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Ah poo poo I fuckin legit lost, I couldn't get comms up fast enough to unlock a country with a facility, i had already done the blacksite, couldn't roll a covert operation to reduce avatar progress, couldn't build skulljack fast enough, and I ended up with no way to reduce avatar project progress.

Whoops!!!

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


strategic layer losses like that sting pretty bad, but on the upside they're incredibly preventable now that you know how quickly that can get out of control.

regarding suppression, it struggles to find a spot because most missions put some sort of movement pressure on you now, and suppression's entire value prop is that makes it more likely that you will win a straight shootout. but that's just...not the kind of game XCOM 2 is. it's pretty drat handy in guerilla actions where you can ace the objective fast and can then take your time eliminating the opposition, but also how many ifs did i just put on it in that sentence?

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Is it fine if most of the time on the first retaliation I just let the chosen extract knowledge on me so they will gently caress off? I feel like I'm very rarely equipped to actually kill them. I did last game but I feel like I mostly lucked out.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Stefan Prodan posted:

Is it fine if most of the time on the first retaliation I just let the chosen extract knowledge on me so they will gently caress off? I feel like I'm very rarely equipped to actually kill them. I did last game but I feel like I mostly lucked out.

Yes, very much so.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Depends on the Chosen mostly. Hunter is a total chump and pretty trivial at most points in the game. Warlock vacillates wildly between being a chump and loving your whole day up if he actually pulls out his good tricks.

Assassin is just an obnoxious rear end in a top hat and the only one who will consistently wreck your day.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Hunter is notorious for generally loving around with his telegraphed long shots, but occasionally just deciding to ace your team with a bunch of grapple flank snapshots.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Zore posted:

Depends on the Chosen mostly. Hunter is a total chump and pretty trivial at most points in the game. Warlock vacillates wildly between being a chump and loving your whole day up if he actually pulls out his good tricks.

Assassin is just an obnoxious rear end in a top hat and the only one who will consistently wreck your day.

I'd switch Hunter and Warlock here. I can't remember Warlock doing anything of consequence to me at all while the Hunter has occasionally decided to grapple halfway across the map and flank-crit some poor soul into instant bleedout/death. Sometimes multiple people in a row.

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

Just a poor man's Park Ji Sung

Leapord


Warlock is a huge chump, keep summoning priests, ill just grind rookie xp tia

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Warlock is loving terrifying if you didn't bring mind shields or flashbangs, and he has decided that today is the day he will show you that he can maintain multiple instances of mind control. He prefers to sit around monologuing and summoning glowy neon rave ghosts 95% of the time though.

e: I only mention flashbangs here because, while the Warlock is completely immune to them, dazing your own soldiers is a pretty good way to keep them from slaughtering their compatriots.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


Knocking over a Chosen is kind of the moment the worm starts to turn on the campaign, so I would keep thinking about what you need to take your nemesis down and work hard to provide that as early as possible. Itís fine to delay it if you really need to, but itís very possible to take them out on first meeting and if you manage that thereís a lot fewer things that can go catastrophically wrong going forward.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Angry Diplomat posted:

Warlock is loving terrifying if you didn't bring mind shields or flashbangs, and he has decided that today is the day he will show you that he can maintain multiple instances of mind control. He prefers to sit around monologuing and summoning glowy neon rave ghosts 95% of the time though.

e: I only mention flashbangs here because, while the Warlock is completely immune to them, dazing your own soldiers is a pretty good way to keep them from slaughtering their compatriots.

Warlock went from being completely useless on commander to very scary on legend imo when I moved up

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Yeah, Warlock busting out his Mind Control is when he gets scary. Its pretty binary with him if he'll ruin your day or not.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Zore posted:

Yeah, Warlock busting out his Mind Control is when he gets scary. Its pretty binary with him if he'll ruin your day or not.

Yeah exactly I had one run that I abandoned just because he mind controlled my templar who killed another soldier and then like a turn later mind controlled another soldier who was the only one left so it just ended lol

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 17, 2021

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE


Stefan Prodan posted:

Yeah exactly I had one run that I abandoned just because he mind controlled my templar who killed another soldier and then like a turn later mind controlled another soldier who was the only one left so it just ended lol

If the warlock is busy I will often just say the hell with it and put mind shields on everyone. Turns that ďpretty binaryĒ into ďwonít happen.Ē

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun



Warlock is easy because heís super easy to engage at a time you are ready and nail him down. Same for Hunter though with his mobility itís slightly less predictable. Both those chosen itís like doing a mission with a wrinkle - either killing zombies or being forced to move a marker target, then you alpha strike them down after creeping up close to them after youíve cleared all the other pods. Easy.

Compared to Assassin who bee lines towards you when youíre engaged with a pod bleeds out some poor bastard and fucks off 12 miles away where you canít see her. gently caress the assassin. Such a hard opponent. This makes it all the more satisfying when you move a soldier and spot her invisible rear end flanked to your entire squad and light her up.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Are stun lancers affected by cover at all when they hit you?

I assume no right

Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Warlock pro tip: if he mind controls someone, run everyone else as far away rear end possible and hide until the MC wears off

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Stefan Prodan posted:

Are stun lancers affected by cover at all when they hit you?

I assume no right

When they melee? No, melee is never affected by cover. See also; your Rangers murdering Sectoids through a window.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



Moola posted:

Warlock pro tip: if he mind controls someone, run everyone else as far away rear end possible and hide until the MC wears off

Another great feature of psi-dudes is that stasis/stasis shield ends all mind control effects

Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Zore posted:

When they melee? No, melee is never affected by cover. See also; your Rangers murdering Sectoids through a window.

this is why I love the "Cover grants amor" mod, because it makes it so if anyone attacks in melee from the direction of cover (like say across a knee high wall) they will have their damage reduced

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Uhh is there some reason I can't extract here?

Is this a bug?



Another question: I feel like i'm noticing some of my deaths involve like the reaper having to end turn near an opposing pod in order to have both turns available to throw -> detonate claymore, is there a reliable way to not get seen in that situation or is it always gonna be some risk to end near the enemy that they might just walk into you?

Also wow did you guys know this, I did not know this

quote:



Despite the laser sight being most effective on shotguns, it still applies to other weapons according to their effective range. For example, a sniper rifle with a laser sight still receives the max critical hit bonus on an enemy at long range as long as the enemy is at the start of the sniper rifle's effective range.

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 17, 2021

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



If you're playing with map mods they will bug out evac points with, uh, moderate frequency. If you're lucky it will spawn on a platform that you can force to respawn with an explosive

As for Reapers, your answer there is a pair bond. You always take a risk with moving a Reaper up but you just kind of have to guess the direction a pod will move in during their turn and give them a few tiles' berth. It's a learned thing. Most of the time you'll be pretty safe but if you've got mod factions or especially Lost active, it can get dicey

Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Feb 17, 2021

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Basic Chunnel posted:

If you're playing with map mods they will bug out evac points with, uh, moderate frequency. If you're lucky it will spawn on a platform that you can force to respawn with an explosive

As for Reapers, your answer there is a pair bond. You always take a risk with moving a Reaper up but you just kind of have to guess the direction a pod will move in during their turn and give them a few tiles' berth. It's a learned thing. Most of the time you'll be pretty safe but if you've got mod factions or especially Lost active, it can get dicey

This was an evac point that I summoned, I was trying to get out since someone was already dead and someone else was on 2 hp and it just didn't work

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



Ah, then unless there's a force evac console command or something I'm not aware of, your only recourse is to load a save from before you dropped the evac point.

If you're running an Ironman game... well, I recommend Bronzeman for modded games (and unmodded games, for that matter) for stuff like this.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Basic Chunnel posted:

Ah, then unless there's a force evac console command or something I'm not aware of, your only recourse is to load a save from before you dropped the evac point.

If you're running an Ironman game... well, I recommend Bronzeman for modded games (and unmodded games, for that matter) for stuff like this.

yeah I just ended up using the console to restart the level, dunno what else I could do. I was willing to take my lumps but the game didn't let me so...whatever

Scrap Dragon
Oct 6, 2013

SECRET TECHNIQUE:
DARK SHADOW
BLACK FALLEN ANGEL!




Had a pretty good mission where the Chosen Assassin managed to warp herself into a small section of the map that otherwise could not be entered or exited. At least not without a grappling hook and neither of us had one. So it basically just devolved into waiting for her to uncloak long enough for me to shoot her

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

I think a map is bugging out on me, it's a lost/alien mission where I had to destroy a relay which I did but now it won't say that I neutralized every enemy. I keep fighting off waves of lost every few turns, do I just have to keep doing that? I toggled the fog of war off because I thought maybe I was just missing an alien somewhere but couldn't find one, and there are no aliens on the map, but it won't make me win either.

I tried to do the ForceCompleteObjective command but I can't figure out how to figure out what ID to use

edit: oh my god there was one zombie standing in a 2 tile hallway in a random building in the corner of the map lol

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 18, 2021

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun



Yeah the way pods work sometimes they overlap with walls and such but because it pods move around it doesnít factor in and because they are in groups of 2-3 one is usually visible but the Lost Brutes who hit hard and have extra hp are by themselves and almost never wander around

I like to think itís the spiritual successor to the Cruise Ship Closet Lobsterman infamous from terror from the deep. As a kid I once spent like two hours clearing a cruise ship.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!





I took the thread's advice and researched Bluescreen rounds, suddenly robots are no longer the most terrifying enemy. My preferred squad still has three specialists though, they all have the triple medkit ability because I don't want anyone to die.

Is it worthwhile to heavily invest in one class so you don't have to buy four different weapon upgrades? Can sharpshooters with a pile of pistol abilities become worthy frontline troops?

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Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Chamale posted:

I took the thread's advice and researched Bluescreen rounds, suddenly robots are no longer the most terrifying enemy. My preferred squad still has three specialists though, they all have the triple medkit ability because I don't want anyone to die.

Is it worthwhile to heavily invest in one class so you don't have to buy four different weapon upgrades? Can sharpshooters with a pile of pistol abilities become worthy frontline troops?

How often are you using nine medkits in a single mission .

Like if you were using literally any other classes you could probably kill the enemies before they managed to hit you nine times.

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