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Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!





Zore posted:

How often are you using nine medkits in a single mission .

Like if you were using literally any other classes you could probably kill the enemies before they managed to hit you nine times.

Not that often, but I'll need a couple medkits every time, and I think I went through seven on a recent VIP rescue. I've only completed the campaign once (about to do a second), and at some point I took the approach that the best way to keep my people alive is to always have enough medkits.

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World War Mammories
Aug 25, 2006



Chamale posted:

Not that often, but I'll need a couple medkits every time, and I think I went through seven on a recent VIP rescue. I've only completed the campaign once (about to do a second), and at some point I took the approach that the best way to keep my people alive is to always have enough medkits.

if you're having fun then obviously the point is moot, but the turn-based combat system means that it's almost always 'better' to focus on huge alpha strikes rather than sustainability. shots can't hit your troops if enemies are too stunned and/or dead to make them in the first place. consider replacing a couple medkits with flashbangs, psi ops with stasis, templars with parry, etc.

the second wave option Beta Strike changes this calculus significantly by boosting the health of everything, but even with that, eventually you get strong enough that you can still crack open a gatekeeper like an egg before it can do much

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Chamale posted:

Is it worthwhile to heavily invest in one class so you don't have to buy four different weapon upgrades? Can sharpshooters with a pile of pistol abilities become worthy frontline troops?

No and Yes, respectively. Sharpshooters are fine pistoleros, but they don't really handle cover nor forward movement very well. The benefits of a varied team lineup vastly outweigh the cost in credits to be upgrading everyone; the game hands out enough cash to expect you to, and it's no big deal if half the team has lower tier weapons for a mission or two.

Not to say that it can't be done! There was a guy in this thread who walked into the final mission (pre-WOTC) with six kaboom-specc'd grenadiers. Hilarious, and more power to him, but hardly optimal. (OR IS IT?!)

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Chamale posted:

Not that often, but I'll need a couple medkits every time, and I think I went through seven on a recent VIP rescue. I've only completed the campaign once (about to do a second), and at some point I took the approach that the best way to keep my people alive is to always have enough medkits.

If it's working for you it's working for you, but you're playing in a way that's basically the exact opposite of mine. Specialists are by far the most reactive of the available classes and have the least killing power (outside of low-rank Reapers). Their highest damage output comes from letting multiple enemies move or shoot on the same turn, which is typically something I don't want to happen if at all possible. That's not to say they are bad: I typically want one in every squad. They make a solid backbone and are first up for extra skills in the Training Center, but they aren't a class I want to bring multiples of unless I have to thanks to losses or promotion RNG. Two would be fine, especially depending on bonus skills that improve lethality, but 3 would just make the squad seem sluggish and unable to kill anything quickly. Without the time limits, that wouldn't be as bad, it'd just be a mors deliberate play style (also better on beta strike since it's harder to just alpha strike with that on). But in general, I approach xcom2 as a puzzle about how to kill a pod on the same turn I reveal them, and specialists don't help with that as much as any other class.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Can someone explain how Full Throttle works?

You get +2 mobility for every kill that turn....for the rest of the mission? For that turn? If it's the latter, what the gently caress is the point of that lol

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Stefan Prodan posted:

Can someone explain how Full Throttle works?

You get +2 mobility for every kill that turn....for the rest of the mission? For that turn? If it's the latter, what the gently caress is the point of that lol

Edit- Actually now I'm genuinely not sure

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Is it for like the specific edge case where you grapple right to an alien, kill it, then are able to take cover exactly <=2 squares away??

BlazetheInferno
Jun 6, 2015


To quote someone on Reddit:

"It's only on that turn. The ability is exceptionally cute against the Lost- you can kill multiple Lost, reload, kill more Lost, and then take an extremely long yellow move to catch up to the rest of the squad.

Otherwise, yeah it's pretty much garbage."

The big thing to remember is that Full Throttle is on a class that can shoot and then move.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Like most of the Skirmisher's perks it feels like they were terrified of making it too powerful so they wildly undershot

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






Meanwhile a dude solo'd multiple stages just with judicious use of a Reaper and streamed a Legendary ironman grim horizon 0deaths0fails Reaper showcase playthrough just to demonstrate how OP the class was.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Does keeping the avatar progress down do anything at all or is it just purely like "don't let it stay at 10"

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


Honestly, they designed concealment to make aggressive movement and positioning not punishing as hell in the opening stages of a map. I truly don’t know what they figured would happen when they added a class that has a better version of it, and can both maintain it while attacking.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


Stefan Prodan posted:

Does keeping the avatar progress down do anything at all or is it just purely like "don't let it stay at 10"

Just don’t let it stay at 10

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!





Y'all were right, too many Specialists means it takes too long to kill anything. I ran out of explosives in the final mission and got overwhelmed, then the Commander died because I didn't see an enemy on overwatch while I was trying to get him to a first aid kit. Humanity is doomed.

https://i.imgur.com/dXafAa2.mp4

Now I'm going to try a playthrough with 1 of every class on each mission.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



Chamale posted:

I took the thread's advice and researched Bluescreen rounds, suddenly robots are no longer the most terrifying enemy. My preferred squad still has three specialists though, they all have the triple medkit ability because I don't want anyone to die.

Is it worthwhile to heavily invest in one class so you don't have to buy four different weapon upgrades? Can sharpshooters with a pile of pistol abilities become worthy frontline troops?

With blue screen rounds? Absolutely. With bluescreen + the hunter's pistol? They 1 click kill sectopods/gatekeepers.

Danaru
Jun 5, 2012

Don't give me that look




One of my proudest moments during XCOM 2 was on some random mission, watching a guy who nearly cost us a retaliation mission when he was a rookie, absolutely loving melt a Sectopod in a single turn with a combination of blue screens, a plasma cannon, and that move where you shoot again if you hit Ya done good, Steve

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






Chamale posted:

Y'all were right, too many Specialists means it takes too long to kill anything. I ran out of explosives in the final mission and got overwhelmed, then the Commander died because I didn't see an enemy on overwatch while I was trying to get him to a first aid kit. Humanity is doomed.

https://i.imgur.com/dXafAa2.mp4

Now I'm going to try a playthrough with 1 of every class on each mission.

Yeah, in a turn based game action economy is king.

And in a game where it's an option, there's no better way to deny your opponent actions than to delete the bodies that would take them. Medkits are just insurance against mistakes and lucky shots.

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun



Armor gives HP, the infirmary accelerates healing, chicks dig scars, and the stun lancer can’t rush at you if you grenade him then combat protocol his last 2 health.

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Xarbala posted:

Meanwhile a dude solo'd multiple stages just with judicious use of a Reaper and streamed a Legendary ironman grim horizon 0deaths0fails Reaper showcase playthrough just to demonstrate how OP the class was.

They’re good, but I’ve done the same feat with both of the other factions—didn’t even need to stealth-cheese missions. After doing it, I’ve just continued to play with Grim Horizon on as a standard because its the only thing that makes Dark Events interesting. Its not even a soft timer because you are so OP by the late game that its all still trivial. The power curve is that bonkers in this game. The only thing that can really gently caress your day up is double intel costs, permanently—even then, its mostly a mid-game concern.

Templars give you an early poor-man’s ‘mimic beacon’ on their 3rd(?) promotion that effectively makes all pods -1 unit size when considering enemy AP. You can kill 2 out of 3 in a pod and save your emergency buttons because you can guarantee the 3rd will attack an invulnerable templar. That’s huge.

Skirmishers are actually stronger than the other 2 because of what they allow you to do on the strategic layer: you can reliably rush SPARKS...which, while readily out-classed late game, are super strong early game into mid game transition when you’re the weakest. They get extra AP, shred, good damage, a heavy weapon, they’re hardened, have armor and a good chunk of HP—but most importantly: they don’t get tired, you can deploy them damaged with no downsides, and they are immune to almost 100% of what the chosen can throw at you to gently caress up your day.

If you have 2 sparks early, you won the game. Pulling off zero deaths and zero mission fails is only a little more challenging at that point. It takes pressure off your fleshbags: if you have squadsize 4, you need ~8 equal-level soldiers with little to no injuries to operate at full strength, for five—ten, for 6–twelve. You’ll be at squad size 5 at least before your first spark, so that number drops to 5/8 and 6/10. Two sparks takes that to 5/6 and 6/8. And you don’t have to worry about composition: you always have shred and a rocket. No grenadier: no problem.

That said, for a novice player: reapers are hands-down the best choice for the stealth mechanic.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE


wuffles posted:

Skirmishers are actually stronger than the other 2 because of what they allow you to do on the strategic layer: you can reliably rush SPARKS...which, while readily out-classed late game, are super strong early game into mid game transition when you’re the weakest.

Can you give more details here?

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Reapers can make the biggest explosions and that means they're the best class

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






These are all compelling argument


I suspect XCOM2 is a good game with fun classes.

Danaru
Jun 5, 2012

Don't give me that look




The spiciest move is whipping a claymore at some dudes, then hitting the dudes and the claymore with a grenade or a rocket. I instakilled the chosen assassin with that move once

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Danaru posted:

The spiciest move is whipping a claymore at some dudes, then whipping another claymore at the dudes, then using a bondmate to get an action back and Remote Starting the dudes and then belatedly remembering that this is a Lost mission

It turned out fine, I had a Ranger

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



ulmont posted:

Can you give more details here?

Sure. You leverage scanning at skirmisher HQ. Halves building and excavation time--its huge. When you first start, you might get some lovely scans and you can forego them to scan at skirmisher HQ. You want to temper this enthusiasm very early because you might need to scan...say a rookies rumor, to get one to pop for a chance at a second early engineer. But basically, besides an engineer (and possibly a scientist), you want to scan at skirmisher HQ. You'll get an early engineer from the first mission, and you might get lucky and get one from an early rumor.

Build the GTS on the first open space (prefer top left or right), put the first engineer on excavation. If you don't get the extra engineer on your second rumor, just scan HQ. Excavating quickly provides money and alloys. You might also get lucky with the Rapid Construction resistance order, but its not required. Never boost construction of the GTS, always dig. In any normal play-through on legendary, you'll complete the GTS before you have the promotion to get +1 squad size without any boost from an engineer if you've done any scanning at skirmisher HQ. Set it and forget it--you need those excavation resources. If you have the spare resources at some point, you build the workshop and leverage this advantage further...but that is situational.

You beeline to the proving ground and your first spark. I think the research path is alien bioengineering and the officer autopsy? Its been a little while. You'll get most of the resources from digging with 1 or 2 engineers. If you get a supply raid, you'll get that second spark sooner. I believe its 150 Supplies, 2 Elerium Cores, 30 Alien Alloys, 10 Elerium Crystals to build the SPARK--the only bottleneck might be the Elerium...which you can buy from the Black Market. You should have the supplies and the alloys from digging, and the cores from picking up just a few resources on the tactical layer.

Once you get that SPARK, you're on your way. Do not treat them as a tank--they are not a tank. They are not at the tip of the spear. They are just behind that. If you had to do a simple layout of your troops from front to back at any given time, you'd have the ranger/grenadier in good cover up front, then your SPARK, then your specialist/sharpshooter. They either clear cover for your squad, or shoot with their big gun at enemies in cleared cover by your squad. Always take Overdrive. Always give them your best scope followed by your best expanded magazine or auto-loader. Always use the rocket.

Again, the biggest relief they'll give you is the demands made on the rest of your squad. If you're squad size 5 with 1 spark--you need 8 guys to put in work. Without that SPARK, you need 10. That's a big deal on legendary. SPARKS can't be disoriented or stunned or disabled by the chosen. The thing the chosen will do to ruin your loving day is to disable your soldiers--you spend precious AP moving to and removing dazed from your troops--while not putting any damage into the chosen. They win by attrition because you can't keep killing them if you're running over to remove status effects from your troops. SPARKS keep shooting. They can't be MC'd, they can't be dazed, they can't bleed out, they can't be blinded, they can take a rifle shot from the hunter, they can take a melee hit from the assassin.

wuffles fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Feb 19, 2021

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Moola posted:

Warlock pro tip: if he mind controls someone, run everyone else as far away rear end possible and hide until the MC wears off

Until he teleport ally’s that MC’d ranger or templar next to your dudes completely out of LoS somehow and they continue to push your poo poo in because its either kill that ranger or let 3 soldiers go into bleed out or get straight up crit killed.

And in no particular order:

Specialists and rangers shine at the transition from ballistics to lasers because the squad upgrades are most efficient at that point. Specialists also excel at this time because combat protocol does good damage vs mechanical units that bypasses armor (turrets/MECs) or finishes off enemies with 2hp or less that must die that turn, and they have revival protocol that is very very good vs chosen or haywire protocol that is okay CC vs mechanicals (I’d personally take revival in all cases). Giving an ally back 2ap and removing dazed is huge, and you still have a second AP to spend on that specialist.

2 specialists in the ballistics-> laser transition is fine, beyond that, its...not great.

Re: skirmishers. They always take the low ground so you can grapple to a flank. They pull enemies out of cover with justice or reposition with Wrath or Reckoning. All of these have a higher chance to hit because you are supposed to be initiating from high ground after a grapple. Retribution is good because its blade storm. Total Combat makes them a good carrier of special grenades and mimic beacons. Whiplash is a free AP with bonus damage to mechanicals. Combat Presence is an extra shot from your ranger’s shotgun or explosive from your grenadier. You should absolutely have your best stock, repeater, hair trigger on them, and your second best laser sights or scope. They aren’t the best...but if you’re unhappy with Skirmishers...you’re not leveraging them fully.

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

Just a poor man's Park Ji Sung

Leapord


i have always found a SPARK and its tremendous punch a healthy anti-warlock option

you cant mind control a fist

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010


They'll never see it coming...


wuffles posted:

They can't be MC'd, they can't be dazed, they can't bleed out, they can't be blinded, they can take a rifle shot from the hunter, they can take a melee hit from the assassin.

So you're saying that they can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with, they don't feel pity, remorse or fear, and they absolutely will not stop, EVER, until their target is dead?

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

I should get that DLC sometime, for some reason I have the expansion but not the DLC so no alien rulers no sparks

Torchlighter
Jan 15, 2012

I Got Kids. I need this.


Stefan Prodan posted:

I should get that DLC sometime, for some reason I have the expansion but not the DLC so no alien rulers no sparks

Alien Rulers are a seasoned taste not for everyone, but SPARKs are in general just good fun guys to have, if considered a little underpowered by most people. That being said, with mods SPARKs can become exactly the type of shitkickers you want them to be.

Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Feb 19, 2021

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun



Am I misremembering or cab rangers use assault rifles? That can be a fun trick to use if you have cash to upgrade only one weapon type since the extra damage outweighs the crit and also rangers with rifles kind of changes them into a midrange flanker rather than a short range crit maker and it’s 100% the worse option but still fun

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

Just a poor man's Park Ji Sung

Leapord


They absolutely can use rifles. A ranger with the Alien Hunters harpoon gun is good clean fun.

Akratic Method
Mar 9, 2013

It's going to pay off eventually--I'm sure of it.

Any day now.



Torchlighter posted:

That being said, with mods SAPRKs can becomne exactly the type of shitkickers you want them to be.

The crucial SPARK mod for me was the one that let me spend ability points on them like normal soldiers. I REFUSE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN FIST OR BIGGER EXPLOSIONS

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Tom Tucker posted:

Am I misremembering or cab rangers use assault rifles? That can be a fun trick to use if you have cash to upgrade only one weapon type since the extra damage outweighs the crit and also rangers with rifles kind of changes them into a midrange flanker rather than a short range crit maker and it’s 100% the worse option but still fun

They can, but mag weapons upgrade gives you access to mag rifles, shotguns, and pistols. So you’d have no reason not to use the shard gun.

At Plasma you have to research the storm gun separately after plasma rifles...but to be honest you’re probably still better off having a shard gun in your rangers’ hands than a plasma rifle.

Shard gun: 6-8 damage with 15% crit
Plasma rifle: 7-9 damage

That’s base crit chance, not accounting for flanking bonus. If you have a research breakthrough for shotguns or mag weapons its not even a toss up.

Xcom 2 pretty much killed the rifle ranger(assault), sad to say.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Akratic Method posted:

The crucial SPARK mod for me was the one that let me spend ability points on them like normal soldiers. I REFUSE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN FIST OR BIGGER EXPLOSIONS

Also let them bond. Julien deserves to be murder-buddies with one of his squadmates

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Zore posted:

Also let them bond. Julien deserves to be murder-buddies with one of his squadmates

God yeah, I would love to hear Julian's assholish lines when he gives his bondmate an action.

"You're falling behind, you know!"

"Why do I put up with you, again?"

"Hurry up and kill something."

binge crotching
Apr 2, 2010



Torchlighter posted:

Alien Rulers are a seasoned taste not for everyone, but SPARKs are in general just good fun guys to have, if considered a little underpowered by most people. That being said, with mods SPARKs can become exactly the type of shitkickers you want them to be.

Mechatronic Warfare is such a good mod, I'm glad I installed it after someone was talking about it in this thread.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


SPARKs have two real problems in my mind:

1) they cost a LOT to deploy
2) they are generalists in a game where specialization is rewarded

the first part is trivially modded and the second is not as big a problem as it might seem if you are using them in a support role.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Oh yeah also does anyone know how to fix the thing where WOTC constantly uses my GPU at 100%, even when tabbed out? I dunno if it's gonna kill my card or anything but it's pretty annoying, it's literally 100% the entire time the game is running, and it's done this for years

I have a GTX 1070

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v1ld
Apr 16, 2012


So that's why everything else goes to poo poo when I tab out of wotc on this laptop with an integrated gpu. Game runs well enough otherwise - low frames don't hurt turn based games.

Whoever mentioned Ronar earlier, thanks: his play by play series is good watching.

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