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TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Is there a mod that fixes things resolving out of order? This playthrough has a bunch of soft freezes when a bunch of stuff goes off at once and its almost never in order so like a ragdoll will go flying, a bunch of notifications, then it'll warp back and go into the run motion before the camera zooms around to the overwatch trap.

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Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

If I have some rangers that originally took bladestorm, and I'm doing stuff after they get training center abilities, is there any reason to give them Phantom instead of Conceal? Conceal seems strictly better. I mean I know I could do both but that seems like overkill generally.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Stefan Prodan posted:

If I have some rangers that originally took bladestorm, and I'm doing stuff after they get training center abilities, is there any reason to give them Phantom instead of Conceal? Conceal seems strictly better. I mean I know I could do both but that seems like overkill generally.

I can't think of a reason, other than saving some ability points. Conceal is much better, though honestly I've always just used my Reapers for any recon in WOTC.

OzFactor
Apr 16, 2001


I think I’m about through my first play through of vanilla XCOM2 and I’m ready to pick up WotC next time it goes on sale somewhere, which by my calculation is every twenty minutes, so is the rumor that it literally installs itself twice true? HD space is the real price I pay for things and I’d like to avoid that if possible.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon


OzFactor posted:

I think I’m about through my first play through of vanilla XCOM2 and I’m ready to pick up WotC next time it goes on sale somewhere, which by my calculation is every twenty minutes, so is the rumor that it literally installs itself twice true? HD space is the real price I pay for things and I’d like to avoid that if possible.

It doesn’t install itself twice. I believe Vanilla+WOTC is 70-ish gigs altogether. Sans mods, of course.

Vanilla alone is 45-something.

Akratic Method
Mar 9, 2013

It's going to pay off eventually--I'm sure of it.

Any day now.



It kinda does install itself twice. More accurately, WOTC runs on an improved engine with differently-compressed assets (hence like every mod breaking), so there's honestly very little reuse of anything between the two (all I can think of is the voice lines; old voice pack mods still work), which means that in effect, yes, you have two copies of XCOM 2 on your hard drive.


Vengarr posted:

I believe Vanilla+WOTC is 70-ish gigs altogether. Sans mods, of course.

That's the upshot regardless of the reason, though. I checked my Steam install confirmed the number.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Stefan Prodan posted:

If I have some rangers that originally took bladestorm, and I'm doing stuff after they get training center abilities, is there any reason to give them Phantom instead of Conceal? Conceal seems strictly better. I mean I know I could do both but that seems like overkill generally.

Theoretically, you could have the ranger be in a very forward position scouting during the first ambush, and not want him to wake the second pod that he sees. That style of build has generally gone out the window thanks to Reapers, so yea their skills aren't balanced against each other.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Well I only have one reaper so I like to have backup scouts for when he gets tired or sometimes even injured something dumb happens

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Feb 21, 2021

Tom Tucker
Jul 19, 2003

I want to warn you fellers
And tell you one by one
What makes a gallows rope to swing
A woman and a gun



The reaper is so powerful that it was actually appropriate once you reached size six squads in vanilla to have a Ghost Ranger who did nothing but Reaper-style scouting from conceal. Getting an opening shot out, not triggering pods before you want, is THAT good that it is worth cutting your squad by 16%

Then they introduce the Reaper who can do the same thing except is 100x harder to spot, faster, can still shoot, drops massive explosives from cover, and gains insane abilities to break cover on the last squad with. Just bonkers they thought it was balanced but it’s a single player game so who cares it’s fun as all hell to have a literal spectre lurking in the shadows taking out Sectoids and marking targets for snipers across the map before advent take cover behind a car that immediately explodes

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

lmao scouting the assassin with the templar ghost and then using invert with the real templar to stick her in the middle of all your guys is very funny imo

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

If someone gets shot then healed up with a medkit does that make any difference as far as like healing time or anything after the mission or is it all the same

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

It's based on the lowest HP they reached during the mission. Healing up right before evaccing doesn't help any - but getting shot, healing up, then getting shot again will give you less healing time than if you take two shots and heal up afterwards.

There's also a big random diceroll involved.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on






Pillbug

Also everyone who plays XCom 1 right only MECs the troops that were gravely injured.

#robocopbutforaliens

OzFactor
Apr 16, 2001


Akratic Method posted:

It kinda does install itself twice. More accurately, WOTC runs on an improved engine with differently-compressed assets (hence like every mod breaking), so there's honestly very little reuse of anything between the two (all I can think of is the voice lines; old voice pack mods still work), which means that in effect, yes, you have two copies of XCOM 2 on your hard drive.

I’m assuming there’s nothing I can do about this? Other than committing to only playing XCOM for a while...

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



Ugly In The Morning posted:

Also everyone who plays XCom 1 right only MECs the troops that were gravely injured.

#robocopbutforaliens

That's a strange way of spelling absolutely everyone.

Infinite Karma
Oct 23, 2004
Good as dead







I felt more bad about forcing some of my loyal Colonels to have all their limbs amputated than turning them into transgenic half-alien monsters.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Jabor posted:

It's based on the lowest HP they reached during the mission. Healing up right before evaccing doesn't help any - but getting shot, healing up, then getting shot again will give you less healing time than if you take two shots and heal up afterwards.

There's also a big random diceroll involved.

that's actually good to know, I never knew it worked like that

does having armor affect like the healing times?

like is getting dropped from 14 to 11 health a smaller recover than like 5 to 2?

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

Yep, it's all proportional to your max health. Getting dropped from 6 to 3 is the same as getting dropped from 14 to 7.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006



Reading ya'll post about the default classes is hella weird, cause I've been using RPGO for over a year now and I constantly forget the base classes even exist lol

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Moola posted:

Reading ya'll post about the default classes is hella weird, cause I've been using RPGO for over a year now and I constantly forget the base classes even exist lol

I tried that and it seemed like too powerful when you can mix and match abilities but too weak when they're partnered randomly

but it did seem like a fun little variation

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Until you get Silent Killer, reapers are kind of a drag. I’d rather have another ranger or grenadier 90% of the time.

Akratic Method
Mar 9, 2013

It's going to pay off eventually--I'm sure of it.

Any day now.



OzFactor posted:

I’m assuming there’s nothing I can do about this? Other than committing to only playing XCOM for a while...

Not that I know of, no. But there's a chance that if you search your choice of OS you may find some weird trick to only install one, or even a list of what things can just straight-up delete in the file manager without disturbing the operation of WOTC. I've never looked for such a thing, so I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean someone hasn't had the same problem and posted about it somewhere.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

wuffles posted:

Until you get Silent Killer, reapers are kind of a drag. I’d rather have another ranger or grenadier 90% of the time.

drat, that seems nuts, just having shadow and remote start and the claymore seems pretty incredible right off the bat for when you have them

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Stefan Prodan posted:

drat, that seems nuts, just having shadow and remote start and the claymore seems pretty incredible right off the bat for when you have them

Yeah seriously. Reapers are great. They're just hard to keep leveling because it's hard to get them kills until they get Silent Killer or whichever skill it is that lets them stay in shadow if they make the kill.

Torchlighter
Jan 15, 2012

I Got Kids. I need this.


Stefan Prodan posted:

I tried that and it seemed like too powerful when you can mix and match abilities but too weak when they're partnered randomly

but it did seem like a fun little variation

I usually use random classes with the Commander's Choice second wave option with one specialisation to make sure that I get someone at least usable. Mind you, the other really big thing is spec weighting, which I have yet to explore/tweak to my own liking.

RPGO also gets a bunch of power out of adding mods, so depending on how many you get can create some real monsters.

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Stefan Prodan posted:

drat, that seems nuts, just having shadow and remote start and the claymore seems pretty incredible right off the bat for when you have them

Reaper pros before Silent Killer:

1. Scouting: Shadow; move speed; Target Definition

2. Explosives: Claymore adds 1 explosive per mission; Claymore + another explosive will delete a pod; Shrapnel makes Claymore better; Remote start does a lot of damage in a large area, is a cooldown ability, and does not break concealment.

3. Can most often attack from flank and/or elevation.

4. Strong on non-timed missions, especially supply raids.


Cons before Silent Killer:

1. Lack of damage: the Vektor rifle is anemic (especially without a lot of crit); damage per tier (ballistics, mag, plasma):

Vektor Rifle: (3-4, 4-5, 5-6)
Assault Rifle: (3-5, 5-7, 7-9)
Shotgun/Cannon/Sniper Rifle: (4-6, 6-8, 8-10) *not accounting for base crit on shotguns

When you get to mag weapons, Specialists put out far more base damage, the vektor is locked behind gauss, and it takes additional resources to upgrade for one (maybe 2) soldiers, when resources are most strained. If you leveled them early (slow, without making many kills) the you probably have silent killer and a mag weapon and can put out okay damage. If under-leveled, you have a mag weapon you use way less often than the others.

2. Lost AP/Opportunity Cost when not attacking on multiple turns: too risky to roll the dice on a concealment check after attack, no claymore (used already or saving), no remote start (not leveled, no viable target, or on cooldown).

3. Remote Start, while strong, is situational. Not uncommon to have no opportunity to use it on a mission.

4. Engaging your reaper in a fire fight is a big decision. If you take a shot at all (even if you win the roll to remain in shadow) your detection range is greatly increased—closer to that of a regular concealed soldier. You’re almost better off to break stealth entirely and re-enter shadow—which you have limited opportunities to do so.

If you get revealed, all of a sudden your reaper is in a VERY BAD situation and you better still be able to pull off the alpha strike or have something in your tool belt to help him out.

5. No inventory slot without Tactical Rigging, which means -1 or 2 items for the squad to use depending on armor tier. Little opportunity to use the item if you have one because of the need to remain in shadow. They really want Talon Rounds anyway, but you still may not have enough to provide them and your ranger(s), which should have higher priority.



Look, reapers are still good in the right situations—many situations even, but there are some serious downsides during certain game-time windows, and its exacerbated without Silent Killer. The most stark and frequent example I can think of is when mutons show up on legendary:

There’s a good chance you’re still partly, if not completely, still in ballistics—trying to get mag weapons online. Mutons have 11 hp and 2 armor. MECs are showing up too. The chosen are still a threat. I need every AP available to me to deal with those aliens at that stage in the game. Can’t afford to have a guy hanging out in stealth not shooting very much.

The mission timer is also a factor—a lot of the time you don’t have the luxury of planning an engagement any better than just running into the pod. Likewise, drawn out combat—even if you make it through unscathed, can ruin your ability to complete the objective on time.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

I dunno to me I felt like reapers were even better on timed missions because I could fully scout an area easily and be pretty confident about full yellow running ahead which saved me time and let me make engagements with full moves available to everyone at the next pod. You can do this with a scout ranger too but I felt like I got hosed by coming around a corner and being seen way more often with a ranger. And like early on before you get silent killer you're running into a lot of pods with like double trooper where just the claymore is gonna take out 2 of them and then you can easily kill the last guy and move on without even spending a full turn.

Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Feb 22, 2021

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



I can agree with that assessment for very early on, before the Vektor rifle damage can’t keep up. I personally use them much less when I can reliably carry a mimic beacon on someone with a health PCS.

Most of the time for me, though, the question isn’t “can I double move the squad up safely?” but “can I move that soldier up for a flank/better cover on the current engagement?”. Due to the line of play mechanic and getting bit numerous times—if I ‘get a bad feeling’ about making that move...chances are that the reaper would just be there to confirm I’m going to trigger an additional pod by doing so.

One thing that’s cool about this game is that there are options for many different play styles.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

wuffles posted:

I can agree with that assessment for very early on, before the Vektor rifle damage can’t keep up. I personally use them much less when I can reliably carry a mimic beacon on someone with a health PCS.

Most of the time for me, though, the question isn’t “can I double move the squad up safely?” but “can I move that soldier up for a flank/better cover on the current engagement?”. Due to the line of play mechanic and getting bit numerous times—if I ‘get a bad feeling’ about making that move...chances are that the reaper would just be there to confirm I’m going to trigger an additional pod by doing so.

One thing that’s cool about this game is that there are options for many different play styles.

Well yeah there's that too I feel like having the reaper is like a templar enabler, he can make sure that a templar or ranger can go melee something without pulling another pod which opens up a lot more risk free possibilities.

When we were talking about before silent killer I feel like that's like...way before you have mimic beacons? I dunno, I don't tend to get mimic beacons for awhile because unless you get the extra faceless event you need what like 3 retaliations to have enough to both research them and then make one? I think you'd usually have silent killer by then but maybe not.

I do have trouble with moving my squad up without a scout though, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I think I waste more turns than I need to when it comes to like finding the next pod on a timed mission, I don't really know how to do it safely without doing it slowly on a timed mission without a stealth unit.

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Stefan Prodan posted:

Well yeah there's that too I feel like having the reaper is like a templar enabler, he can make sure that a templar or ranger can go melee something without pulling another pod which opens up a lot more risk free possibilities.

When we were talking about before silent killer I feel like that's like...way before you have mimic beacons? I dunno, I don't tend to get mimic beacons for awhile because unless you get the extra faceless event you need what like 3 retaliations to have enough to both research them and then make one? I think you'd usually have silent killer by then but maybe not.

I do have trouble with moving my squad up without a scout though, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I think I waste more turns than I need to when it comes to like finding the next pod on a timed mission, I don't really know how to do it safely without doing it slowly on a timed mission without a stealth unit.

Yes, it would be after the 3rd retaliation mission that you’d have the ability to make the mimic beacon. Having Silent Killer before that time depends on if Reapers are your starting faction or not, and also how much you utilize them if they are.

Admittedly, I under-use my faction soldiers in the first 2 months; I try to make sure they’re available for the first 2 retaliations to get the bonus v. chosen, and I’m trying to field as many rookies as safely possible in the beginning of the campaign.

As for moving without a scout, lets assume this is relatively early. The further you are into the campaign, the more tools you have to adjust on the fly. For instance: having a ranger with run and gun that reveals a pod on his blue move, can still reposition and shoot—one of the best uses of that skill when you first get it.

- have a person on point

- follow the point man close and near-single-file

- almost always use all blue moves squad-wide first *there are exceptions

- if time is tight, have the point man make a second move forward into the best available cover

- if no aliens are encountered on that turn, divide up cover based on who needs to end their turn in cover to keep the squad grouped as tight as possible: sharpshooters and specialists (plus grenadiers after you have salvo). Everyone else stands in the open as close to point as possible.

- if you encounter a pod on the point man’s second move, consider your odds offensively as usual...but really think about defensive options for that turn. You have limited tools and so do the aliens early in the game. The point man in full cover with an aid protocol from a specialist near the back in full cover means both of them are pretty safe from basic fire. Grenadiers and others in the mid group should really consider hunkering down if they’re in half cover rather than wounding an alien that will still get to shoot back. If you can still alpha strike in this situation you should of course.

Edit: just wanted to clarify that leaving soldiers in the open at the end of your turn applies to squads that have already broken concealment with no active enemy pods. You can also probably add ‘skirmishers with grapple on cooldown or with no elevated positions near by or are on elevated ground’ to the list of soldiers who want to end such a turn behind the best cover available.

wuffles fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Feb 23, 2021

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

I just started over since I had to cheat a couple times in my last game and I wanted to try and do like a real ironman, and on the loving first mission, I got to the objective and then it dropped two stun lancers and a priest in as reinforcements. Is that normal or did I just get insanely unlucky?

Stun lancers on the first real mission was uhhh not fun

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Stefan Prodan posted:

I just started over since I had to cheat a couple times in my last game and I wanted to try and do like a real ironman, and on the loving first mission, I got to the objective and then it dropped two stun lancers and a priest in as reinforcements. Is that normal or did I just get insanely unlucky?

Stun lancers on the first real mission was uhhh not fun

Did you run the tutorial? First mission out of Gratecrasher with double lancer is rough (but part of XCOM life), yes. First mission after Jane Kelly & her rookies the Section is normally a bust regardless, thanks to the whole "lost 3 guys 2 missions ago" thing.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

No I don't do the tutorial or lost and abandoned

Like I'm just not sure how I could have won that mission in time, and without beating the mission I don't get an engineer and that seemed worth just starting over, especially one mission in

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Stefan Prodan posted:

No I don't do the tutorial or lost and abandoned

Like I'm just not sure how I could have won that mission in time, and without beating the mission I don't get an engineer and that seemed worth just starting over, especially one mission in

Yeah, basically reinforcement pods have a small chance of rolling reinforcements from a higher tier of enemies than you're supposed to encounter. This can lead to some really stupid things if you get unlucky like Stun Lancers and Priests on your first mission, or MECs vs squaddies etc.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Zore posted:

Yeah, basically reinforcement pods have a small chance of rolling reinforcements from a higher tier of enemies than you're supposed to encounter. This can lead to some really stupid things if you get unlucky like Stun Lancers and Priests on your first mission, or MECs vs squaddies etc.

Ah yeah so I just got boned.

Is it random whether there are reinforcements at all? I don't remember always getting them.

I actually cleared the reinforcement pod but I had to like move up on the next turn to the objective because I had no choice, ran into the last two pods at once which had two sectoids, and they mind controlled the guy with the flashbang, and that was the end of XCOM.


Side question: in ronar's videos he uses a mod called TacticalUI that shows you like how many aliens you've activated and how many are still alive, I downloaded that one and it doesn't seem to work anymore, is there another one that does the same thing? I don't want it to cheat and tell me how many are on the map until I get the shadow chamber, just to tell me like ok you activated 4 and you killed 3, just to make it a little easier to keep track.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Stefan Prodan posted:

Ah yeah so I just got boned.

Is it random whether there are reinforcements at all? I don't remember always getting them.

I actually cleared the reinforcement pod but I had to like move up on the next turn to the objective because I had no choice, ran into the last two pods at once which had two sectoids, and they mind controlled the guy with the flashbang, and that was the end of XCOM.


Side question: in ronar's videos he uses a mod called TacticalUI that shows you like how many aliens you've activated and how many are still alive, I downloaded that one and it doesn't seem to work anymore, is there another one that does the same thing? I don't want it to cheat and tell me how many are on the map until I get the shadow chamber, just to tell me like ok you activated 4 and you killed 3, just to make it a little easier to keep track.

I use this one and its worked pretty well for me for the past few years

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=749138678

Someone also apparently uploaded a new version like today with some fixes and mod compatibility for more recent mods

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2405013108

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

Zore posted:

I use this one and its worked pretty well for me for the past few years

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=749138678

Someone also apparently uploaded a new version like today with some fixes and mod compatibility for more recent mods

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2405013108

Oh weird that first one is the one I downloaded and I couldn't get it to work but I'll try the second one, maybe it's borked with a mod i have on

wuffles
Apr 9, 2004



Stefan Prodan posted:

I just started over since I had to cheat a couple times in my last game and I wanted to try and do like a real ironman, and on the loving first mission, I got to the objective and then it dropped two stun lancers and a priest in as reinforcements. Is that normal or did I just get insanely unlucky?

Stun lancers on the first real mission was uhhh not fun

Its already been answered but yeah you got hosed. I’ve had it happen I think, twice, over many hours. Very rare, should be unintended, and can easily gently caress up a run before it even starts.

Stefan Prodan
Jan 7, 2002

I deeply respect you as a human being... Some day I'm gonna make you *Mrs* Buck Turgidson!




Grimey Drawer

lol I've lost on the first non-gatecrasher mission two more times in a row the first month is so god drat hard on legend

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Torchlighter
Jan 15, 2012

I Got Kids. I need this.


Stefan Prodan posted:

Oh weird that first one is the one I downloaded and I couldn't get it to work but I'll try the second one, maybe it's borked with a mod i have on

Question: Are you using the Alternative Mod Launcher? That could tell you if you've got a mod conflict.

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