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Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Fair point, I probably should have clarified it more as west of the Urals

There's like a thousand miles between the Rus and where Subutai started out from, those are the people they swept right through

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vains
May 26, 2004


yea but the mongols also slaughtered the poo poo out of kievan rus. the period definitively ended when the mongols invaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:



Also the Mongols literally took all the Russian nobles and suffocated them in drums during their victory festivals. They thought spilling noble blood was an offense to the gods.

This is also why, when they captured the Caliph in Baghdad (the Islamic equivalent of the Pope), they rolled him up in a carpet and had a line of horses trample him to death.

Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:



My Chinese history prof also said that during their conquest of the Southern Chinese cities, they would stampede Chinese peasants forward for 2 things:

1) Arrow pincushions
2) Moat fillers

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

yea but the mongols also slaughtered the poo poo out of kievan rus. the period definitively ended when the mongols invaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

And the founding of Moscow as a power center was established through the repelling of the Mongols a while later.

VikingSkull posted:

Fair point, I probably should have clarified it more as west of the Urals

There's like a thousand miles between the Rus and where Subutai started out from, those are the people they swept right through


All of which is west of the Urals

Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Apr 22, 2016

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Kawasaki Nun posted:

And the founding of Moscow as a power center was established through the repelling of the Mongols a while later.



All of which is west of the Urals

can I go back and change that to east like I meant or do I look too dumb at this point

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


VikingSkull posted:

can I go back and change that to east like I meant or do I look too dumb at this point

you should probably chalk this one up as a loss and move on

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

you should probably chalk this one up as a loss and move on

That's a fair point, haha, I'm not too proud to admit I butchered what I meant to say.

Basically, from where Subutai embarked, the Mongol forces traveled over a thousand miles, picking up similar peoples along the way, until they got to and crossed the Urals, then faced the Rus. So when people hear that the Mongols conquered most of what is present day Russia, it actually wasn't as crazy as it sounds because most of the Asian part of Russia contained nomadic horse tribes.

Hopefully that makes a bit more sense? Either way, yeah, I'm a moron sometimes.

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



It's amazing to think that tribal horsemen, in one way or another, were loving up the plans of empires from the days of Cyrus the great to, pretty much, the British Empire.

Nobody found a solution for their style of warfare until the wide-spread use of rifles.

You would think that when an Emperor or a King or a grand ruler decided "Hey let's go gently caress with the Parthians/Scythians/Mongols/Huns" they would have some advisors going :stare: THIS IS A BAD IDEA.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Conflict between settled people and nomads, or broadly food producers and hunter-gatherers is a constant for human history.

What's crazy is that the nomads only won out in Eurasia. Without the horse, nomads were wiped out pretty much everywhere. The only Native American tribes that held out were the ones that farmed (Iroquois) or the ones that got horses (Plains Indians).

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Frosted Flake posted:

Conflict between settled people and nomads, or broadly food producers and hunter-gatherers is a constant for human history.

What's crazy is that the nomads only won out in Eurasia. Without the horse, nomads were wiped out pretty much everywhere. The only Native American tribes that held out were the ones that farmed (Iroquois) or the ones that got horses (Plains Indians).

so uh, what was happening in the Americas for the centuries leading up to the introduction of horses around (I'm assuming) the 1400s? That's a long time to survive as a nomadic people, sans horses.

Also there are quite a few different nomadic peoples in Africa and Australia. Nomadic people's on other continents didn't form major empires like in Eurasia but they were hardly wiped out.

Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Apr 23, 2016

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


They were whenever they fought non-nomadic peoples.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Kawasaki Nun posted:

so uh, what was happening in the Americas for the centuries leading up to the introduction of horses around (I'm assuming) the 1400s? That's a long time to survive as a nomadic people, sans horses.

Also there are quite a few different nomadic peoples in Africa and Australia. Nomadic people's on other continents didn't form major empires like in Eurasia but they were hardly wiped out.

Most of the people's in South America weren't nomadic, some of the largest cities on Earth at that time were located there. The nomadic indigenous people in the Americas were basically constrained to the plains of North America. A lot of the native tribes were a combination, as they'd set up small villages in the winter and summer, and would follow game in the spring and fall as they migrated.

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


VikingSkull posted:

Most of the people's in South America weren't nomadic, some of the largest cities on Earth at that time were located there. The nomadic indigenous people in the Americas were basically constrained to the plains of North America. A lot of the native tribes were a combination, as they'd set up small villages in the winter and summer, and would follow game in the spring and fall as they migrated.

I guess maybe I jumped to conclusions and assumed that "wiped out" meant removed from the earth entirely. That nomadic and semi-nomadic native Americans dominated the majority of North America until European colonists showed up is, in my mind, another example of them "winning" a region. Maybe not in the same way that the Khans and Tamerlane and the like "won" the steppes and Eurasia, but a victory for nomads nonetheless

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


The nomadic people you cite were wiped out when settled people made contact with them. The Colombian Divide might have kept them around until 1500 CE rather than 1500 BCE, but once Africa, Australia and the Americas came into contact with people with agriculture and horses, it was pretty much the end of their nomadic societies.

Even without Europeans this happened. The great Mesoamerican Civilizations and the Bantu used improved food production, division of labour and increased birthrates provided by settled agriculture and animal husbandry to out-compete ('wipe out') their nomadic, hunter-gatherer neighbors.

This happened in Polynesia as well, where the Maori started invading their neighbors as soon as they were able.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people#Invasion_by_Taranaki_M.C4.81ori

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 23, 2016

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Frosted Flake posted:

The nomadic people you cite were wiped out when settled people made contact with them. The Colombian Divide might have kept them around until 1500 CE rather than 1500 BCE, but once Africa, Australia and the Americas came into contact with people with agriculture and horses, it was pretty much the end of their nomadic societies.

Even without Europeans this happened. The great Mesoamerican Civilizations and the Bantu used improved food production, division of labour and increased birthrates provided by settled agriculture and animal husbandry to out-compete ('wipe out') their nomadic, hunter-gatherer neighbors.

This happened in Polynesia as well, where the Maori started invading their neighbors as soon as they were able.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people#Invasion_by_Taranaki_M.C4.81ori

Still outlasted the mongols. How exactly are we measuring in success here?

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


Kawasaki Nun posted:

Still outlasted the mongols. How exactly are we measuring in success here?

carbon footprint

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Kawasaki Nun posted:

Still outlasted the mongols. How exactly are we measuring in success here?

Outlasted only by not having contact with any other society. Your idea of "winning" only holds true if these nomadic societies are undisturbed indefinitely. The Mongols, Huns, Avar, Magyars etc. were able to compete with, and defeat settled societies for hundreds of years.

e:

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene



Didn't native Americans use to set huge Forrest fires in the areas that would become the great planes?

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


Kawasaki Nun posted:

Didn't native Americans use to set huge Forrest fires in the areas that would become the great planes?

as in the mongols got their kill on so good it had an actual measurable effect on the carbon levels. they slaughtered so many people and depopulated so much cultivated land that was then reclaimed by nature, that they were responsible for removing 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

as in the mongols got their kill on so good it had an actual measurable effect on the carbon levels. they slaughtered so many people and depopulated so much cultivated land that was then reclaimed by nature, that they were responsible for removing 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

as in the mongols got their kill on so good it had an actual measurable effect on the carbon levels. they slaughtered so many people and depopulated so much cultivated land that was then reclaimed by nature, that they were responsible for removing 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere

Such a green institution, hopefully we see someone take up the reigns

Steezo
Jun 16, 2003
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!




Kawasaki Nun posted:

Such a green institution, hopefully we see someone take up the reigns

Does splitting the atom produce much carbon, or is it just fusing them that does that?

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Kawasaki Nun posted:

Such a green institution, hopefully we see someone take up the reigns

On a smaller scale, this is a great fact about my home state I always thought was crazy.

If you've been to rural NY, you've probably noticed the forests. Huge, old growth trees everywhere, it's really cool and there's vast areas of it in NY. Must be just like it was back in the Revolution, if you close your eyes.

Actually, no, if you closed your eyes and opened them in the Revolution, NY was almost entirely clean cut farmland. All of the NY "old growth" forest existed after the rise of ind=

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Steezo posted:

Does splitting the atom produce much carbon, or is it just fusing them that does that?

One of us has a very poor understanding of basic physics.

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

VikingSkull posted:

On a smaller scale, this is a great fact about my home state I always thought was crazy.

If you've been to rural NY, you've probably noticed the forests. Huge, old growth trees everywhere, it's really cool and there's vast areas of it in NY. Must be just like it was back in the Revolution, if you close your eyes.

Actually, no, if you closed your eyes and opened them in the Revolution, NY was almost entirely clean cut farmland. All of the NY "old growth" forest existed after the rise of ind=

New York is rather large and wasn't quite well populated enough for this to be true in revolutionary times according to my gut. Do you have a source?

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012



Steezo posted:

Does splitting the atom produce much carbon, or is it just fusing them that does that?

On its own, no, but there's the part where it incinerates everything around it which releases a bunch of nice carbon

LostCosmonaut
Feb 15, 2014



Steezo posted:

Does splitting the atom produce much carbon, or is it just fusing them that does that?

Fission most makes stuff around the middle of the periodic table (there's one peak in abundance near krypton, and another near iodine). Certain kinds of fusion make carbon, but that kind is only found in stars that have used up most of their hydrogen.

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Zeris posted:

New York is rather large and wasn't quite well populated enough for this to be true in revolutionary times according to my gut. Do you have a source?

American logging destroyed nearly all the forests on the east coast. Hell, nearly the entire country was covered in woods, to the extent that people used to joke about a squirrel being able to make it to the Mississippi without touching the ground. While industrialization really took a huge chunk out of forests in the west most of that was a consequence of eastern forests having already been clear cut. If you look up History of lumber industry in the US you can find alot of resources that talk about how programs like the National Forestry service got their mandate as a consequence of lovely logging practices prior to the 20th century

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Zeris posted:

New York is rather large and wasn't quite well populated enough for this to be true in revolutionary times according to my gut. Do you have a source?

Bill Bryson mentions it in one of his books. Something about how the settling of the plains and the ability to transport grain to market by railroad drew farmers from the coast. Why farm a tiny plot in New York when you can have a massive farm out west? The towns and cities could get grain from out west so cheaply by rail that having local farms wasn't very advantageous.

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

Oh I forgot about all those railroads during the revolution


edit, I spent a little while trying to find the recorded extent of farming in NY around that time but couldn't get close. The best I could find is a list of old growth forests, but most old growth definitions vary and in general they imply an age at or just after the revolutionary war began, so it wouldn't be of much use anyway.

Zeris fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Apr 25, 2016

Flying_Crab
Apr 12, 2002





Edit: Whoops.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


Frosted Flake posted:

Bill Bryson mentions it in one of his books. Something about how the settling of the plains and the ability to transport grain to market by railroad drew farmers from the coast. Why farm a tiny plot in New York when you can have a massive farm out west? The towns and cities could get grain from out west so cheaply by rail that having local farms wasn't very advantageous.

This is distinctly post-Revolution.

Natty Ninefingers
Feb 17, 2011


There were certainly farms in NY at the time of the revolutionary war, but they were limited in scope. The initial wave of settlement came in the immediate aftermath, as colonial soldiers were given land grants to parcel out. However, it was still a gradual spread, usually up along the rivers. However, the population did hit the point where even hillsides were farmed, or at least logged. There is almost no old growth forest in NY. I think only patches of the Adirondacks qualify. There's plenty of woods now, but if you hike through them youll find old fence lines, rusty barbed wire, or even the remains of a house.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Godholio posted:

This is distinctly post-Revolution.

Oh I just meant to reinforce the forests not being old growth!

The Ohio valley was the frontier at the time of the revolution, of course people were farming in NY!

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Zeris posted:

New York is rather large and wasn't quite well populated enough for this to be true in revolutionary times according to my gut. Do you have a source?

Yeah, Revolution was probably too early, but by the mid to late 1800's NYS had stopped logging and farming primarily, so our forests tend to be a bit older than others in the Northeast

quote:

New York regarded wilderness as a treasure and a resource in the 19th century, long before most other states. Much of the woodland of the Northeast was destroyed by heavy logging during that time, but many of New York's hardwood trees were spared because they were useless as lumber, on inaccessible peaks and hillsides or far from streams used to float lumber to towns.

In 1895, the state created Adirondack Park, six million acres to be protected forever as wilderness and watershed. It now has more than half a million acres of virgin forest, as much as all the rest of the Northeast, said Barbara McMartin, a mathematician who has written 23 Adirondack guidebooks. Michael Kudish, a forestry professor at Paul Smith's College in Brighton, N.Y., in the Adirondacks, said that over the past 30 years, he had mapped 97 square miles of virgin forest in the Catskills.

Link

Fucitol
May 8, 2005

Ceterum autem censeo mundum esse delendam



Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris


would any of you preeminent erudites have any hot links on the battle of succhiare il mio cazzo da dietro? wiki or fourth hand from your perpetually drunk step-uncle, it doesn't matter. just tryin to get my learn on.

tia

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


Fucitol posted:

would any of you preeminent erudites have any hot links on the battle of succhiare il mio cazzo da dietro? wiki or fourth hand from your perpetually drunk step-uncle, it doesn't matter. just tryin to get my learn on.

tia

thats a spicy meat a ball!

Fo3
Feb 14, 2004

RAAAAARGH!!!! GIFT CARDS ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!

(I need a hug)


ManMythLegend posted:

Is this thread only for military history? Because if not, I just wanted to say that I've been completely nerding out over "The History of English" podcast.

Basically it's exactly what it sounds like: a history of the English language starting in prehistory and going through the proto Indo-European language it's a daughter of to ostensibly the modern age (though he's only up to the Norman invasion of England right now so around the advent of Middle English).

It's a great summary of European history with a good amount of anthropology mixed in flavored with a dash of linguistics. It really does a good job of explaining why the English language is so wacky in its spelling and pronunciation.

I've been burning through it since I found out about it because it's extremely my poo poo. :kimchi:


Yeah, I started listening to that about 2 years ago. Forgot about it late last year since the releases slowed down a bit. Also lsitening to the british history podcast too.

That is the best thing I have seen on YT for a long time, thanks.

Fo3 fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Apr 27, 2016

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Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




Fucitol posted:

would any of you preeminent erudites have any hot links on the battle of succhiare il mio cazzo da dietro? wiki or fourth hand from your perpetually drunk step-uncle, it doesn't matter. just tryin to get my learn on.

tia

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