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Fucitol
May 8, 2005

Ceterum autem censeo mundum esse delendam



Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris


can't w8 4 cinemax to put out a mini series on wwi or for a video game to come out about living in prison colony australia. then this thread will really light up and make herodotus proud.

thx 4 listening

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Busket Posket
Feb 5, 2010




I mean, if you want ridiculous amounts of expert WWI knowledge, I can summon HomoNeanderthal11C from the ashes. Give him an intro question/topic and be prepared for so much knowledge and insight that you'll weep.

Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.




Sugartime Jones

Busket Posket posted:

I mean, if you want ridiculous amounts of expert WWI knowledge, I can summon HomoNeanderthal11C from the ashes. Give him an intro question/topic and be prepared for so much knowledge and insight that you'll weep.

:stare:

HomoNeanderthal11C
Mar 17, 2016



Busket Posket posted:

I mean, if you want ridiculous amounts of expert WWI knowledge, I can summon HomoNeanderthal11C from the ashes. Give him an intro question/topic and be prepared for so much knowledge and insight that you'll weep.

Alright, have at it. If I'm able, I'll try to include sources (I think all told, I've got somewhere around 125 books on the topic of WWI alone, so this may end up proving difficult depending on how 'specialised' the question is...if you ask something about Verdun or Neuve Chappelle, tossing out a bunch of references will be easier than something about the performance of a particular, obscure aircraft like a SPAD S.A.4...I'm sure you understand). But yeah, let's have some questions!

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

The americans saving europe from themselves and winning the war part 1

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

just kidding but I bet someone out there got mad for a second !

shame on an IGA
Apr 8, 2005



What finally got leadership to unfuck itself and try something other than massive human wave of mutilation after massive human wave of mutilation

HomoNeanderthal11C
Mar 17, 2016



Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

The americans saving europe from themselves and winning the war part 1

Probably because this is how both world wars are taught when you're in middle and high schools; or it was when I was there. Granted that was the '90s, but from what I've seen it doesn't look like too much has changed.
Maybe it's just easier to think that the French were big pussies, and the British would bend over backwards to avoid taking on Germany than to have to sit down and explain *why* this was the case. After all, since the US was "neutral" during the vast majority of the Great War, and dint see an awful lot of action once we had joined the fray (many of the US's casualties can be laid directly at the feet of Higher for utterly ignoring the British and French and insisting we fight as if it were 1914 again)...toss in a bit of the savour complex that Wilson (and then FDR) had, and it makes that narrative appealing on so many levels.
We saved Europe from itself, as you said.
Educators don't have to actually learn about factors that lead to the First World War, and can focus on the Second, where played a larger role. I'll be the first to admit that to learn what made the First World War happen, you've gotta go back to at the very least 1870-71...that being said, if you don't understand the First, you can't possibly understand the Second.
&c. For unknown reasons, the US curriculum just seems to love to mangle history. poo poo's a damned shame. So we get stories about how Custer was awesome despite his utter incompetence at being a leader, and no one ever hears about people who deserve the attention, like, say, Henry Johnson. Wikipedia *that* guy if you've never heard of him, and you'll probably wonder aloud how that guy didn't get a Medal of Honor.

HomoNeanderthal11C
Mar 17, 2016



shame on an IGA posted:

What finally got leadership to unfuck itself and try something other than massive human wave of mutilation after massive human wave of mutilation

Germany had the ideas first. They're the ones who came up with an actual defense in depth that was pretty great; they were the first to use stormtrooper tactics. For the Entente and associated powers, it was simply the Germans throwing in the towel. By the time the British/French/to a lesser extent US forces began doing this, the Germans were already beginning to realise that they'd lost...took a while to set in, but they'd lost back at the Battle of the Marne back in 1914, and it just took them 3 years to realise it. On the Entente side, it was typically the French leading the way with newer, better tactics, and the English and Dominion forces (all under Haig) who eventually followed, whining the entire time. All Haig ever wanted to do was to find a way for his beloved Cav to be able to do what it had always done...utterly resistant the the idea that time had passed that whole method of manoeuvre behind.
The Seigfreid Lime (Hindenburg Line, same thing) is what really made the Entente think...it was just as well situated as the German's 1914 lines as far as using the terrain, but this time instead of digging in place, there was an actual plan behind it, using the two full years of warfare previous to expand on what they knew worked. Had the Germans not been so demoralised about what was going on back home, the replacements that were coming in from the home front, and, to top things all off, the knowledge that Americans were slowly but surely building up in France (France was bled white, the Brits were sending in people who would've been (and in many cases were) laughed out of recruiting offices in 1914, even with massive help from the Dominions, they didn't have the manpower, so they began to actually husband it...oddly this accusation that manpower was being recklessly wasted is what prompted Haig replacing French! Since no one really believed anything Haig said anymore (since he had become commander of the BEF, every single offensive he had done was always going to be 'the one that finally depleted German reserves), and facing what was a pretty formidable obstacle, the Entente simply had no other options left.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Would you say that the US helped the overall war effort in WWII more, but that American boots on the ground had more of an effect in WWI?

I always thought that, and the Western Front in WWI was a much more important and a close run thing than it was in WWII anyway. In terms of total influence WWII has it hands down, though.

HomoNeanderthal11C
Mar 17, 2016



VikingSkull posted:

Would you say that the US helped the overall war effort in WWII more, but that American boots on the ground had more of an effect in WWI?

I always thought that, and the Western Front in WWI was a much more important and a close run thing than it was in WWII anyway. In terms of total influence WWII has it hands down, though.

We help materially a hell of a lot more than we did as far as boots on the ground was concerned. Although we liked to say we were neutral, we weren't, we weren't even close to.
What US intervention did was make the German position untenable. They were used up after the Spring Offensive in 1918. The manpower and industrial might that we could dedicate to the fight were unmatched, certainly after all parties were bled white. We didn't have a whole lot of people in France when the war ended. But what about 1919? That's why the Germans threw in the towel. They'd lost after the Marne, but didn't know it. Once APR1917 hit, they knew they were hosed and it was only a matter of time. Had the US decided *not* to intervene, the Central Powers may well have won...the British were broke. They had taken over 2/3ds of French expenditures, and were wholly funding Russia, Italy, and both governments in exile on Corfu. US banks and businesses wouldn't extend them credit any longer. That would have been that...
EDIT: We weren't as big of a deal in WW2 as we like to tell ourselves; especially on the Weatern Front...Russia would've freely destroyed Germany eventually. They had the tactics down pat...soon as they figured that out, zee Germans didn't win a single battle.

HomoNeanderthal11C fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 28, 2016

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.


You're talking soley about the European Theater of WWII right, because America was pretty integral to the Pacific Theater.

HomoNeanderthal11C
Mar 17, 2016



ManMythLegend posted:

You're talking soley about the European Theater of WWII right, because America was pretty integral to the Pacific Theater.

If you meant me, yeah. In the Pacific we were the bulk of forces; not so much in Europe.
As least as far as I know...I don't have the skills to go into all-out debate on the matter; I've read like10 books on WW2 and all were when I was a teen/early 20s.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


HomoNeanderthal11C posted:

Had the US decided *not* to intervene, the Central Powers may well have won...the British were broke. They had taken over 2/3ds of French expenditures, and were wholly funding Russia, Italy, and both governments in exile on Corfu. US banks and businesses wouldn't extend them credit any longer. That would have been that...

The US financial industry really took over the world during WWI. They swooped in and scooped up all the banking and bullion business in the western hemisphere while London (at the time the financial center of the world) was busy trying to keep pace with their own expenditures...and the US was primarily only accepting literal gold and silver in exchange for credit which really started the shift from London to New York. The process wasn't complete by the time of the Armistice, but the trend was probably irreversible.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit


The Hardcore History series Ghosts of the Ostfront is a fantastic look at why American involvement in the European theater of WWII is fairly laughable compared to the Russians. The sheer scale of it is a major component due to the millions upon millions involved.

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

Pesticide20 posted:

The Hardcore History series Ghosts of the Ostfront is a fantastic look at why American involvement in the European theater of WWII is fairly laughable compared to the Russians. The sheer scale of it is a major component due to the millions upon millions involved.

Imagine how much shittier the Eastern Front would have been without Weapons, ammo, clothing or food.

Fact is lend-lease won the war, Russia just kept throwing people in to the grinder to keep Germany doing the same

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


lend lease and the strategic bombing campaign that crippled german industry. also forcing the germans to fight on 2+ fronts. america didnt win the war on its own, but the russians sure as gently caress didnt either

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




It's almost as if they worked together to achieve a common goal :wow:

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


when Stalin says that they couldn't have won without American help, I tend to believe him

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

god bless bj blaskcowitz for winning wwii

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

god bless bj blaskcowitz for winning wwii

Also Indiana Jones and Captain America

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

Booblord Zagats posted:

Also Indiana Jones and Captain America

I wont deny their impact on the war effort. Indiana stopped them from getting IMMORTALITY, and Captain America kept Baron Zemo busy on the western front. However, I didn't see them helping out when Hitler turned into a robot sooo

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

I wont deny their impact on the war effort. Indiana stopped them from getting IMMORTALITY, and Captain America kept Baron Zemo busy on the western front. However, I didn't see them helping out when Hitler turned into a robot sooo

I mean, Hitler only built the robot because Captain America punched him in the face so hard he needed a suit of armor to feel safe. So if anything he just made ol Beej's job that much harder

vains
May 26, 2004


Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

lend lease and the strategic bombing campaign that crippled german industry. also forcing the germans to fight on 2+ fronts. america didnt win the war on its own, but the russians sure as gently caress didnt either

saying that the us was irrelevant in wwii is like the 'gently caress you dad school' of wwii historiography.

Mike-o
Dec 25, 2004

Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed




Grimey Drawer

MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

saying that the us was irrelevant in wwii is like the 'gently caress you dad school' of wwii historiography.

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

saying that the us was irrelevant in wwii is like the 'gently caress you dad school' of wwii historiography.

people that unironically think that probably own at least one repro soviet unshaka

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.


MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

saying that the us was irrelevant in wwii is like the 'gently caress you dad school' of wwii historiography.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Even before the war, 15% of French fighters were U.S types. P-36s accounted for almost 33% of aerial victories while making up 12% of French fighters.

In March 1940 the French bought:

200 - P-40
200 - P-40D
200 - P-39
500 - P-38
250 - Martin GM 187 (Baltimore)
550 - Douglas DB-7 (Havoc; Boston I, II)
60 - B-24 Liberator
200 - Vultee Dive Bomber (Vengence)
174 - Douglas SBD-3 (Dauntless)

That's pretty drat impressive! Too bad it's often overlooked in favour of Lend-Lease.

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




VikingSkull posted:

when Stalin says that they couldn't have won without American help, I tend to believe him

This pretty much ends the discussion on how much the US Euro Theater intervention was critical to the downfall of the NAZIs.


MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

saying that the us was irrelevant in wwii is like the 'gently caress you dad school' of wwii historiography.

vains
May 26, 2004


Frosted Flake posted:

Even before the war, 15% of French fighters were U.S types. P-36s accounted for almost 33% of aerial victories while making up 12% of French fighters.

In March 1940 the French bought:

200 - P-40
200 - P-40D
200 - P-39
500 - P-38
250 - Martin GM 187 (Baltimore)
550 - Douglas DB-7 (Havoc; Boston I, II)
60 - B-24 Liberator
200 - Vultee Dive Bomber (Vengence)
174 - Douglas SBD-3 (Dauntless)

That's pretty drat impressive! Too bad it's often overlooked in favour of Lend-Lease.

because lend lease actually mattered and the french air force largely did not.

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

because lend lease actually mattered and the french air force largely did not.

Also less than a quarter of the delivery got made before Vichy

Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:



Some cool facts I learned while getting my history degree:

1) Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer before he was a Nazi official, and he believed he could breed desirable traits into humans the same way he did with chickens. He felt that, given a few decades, he could make all of Germany blond-haired and blue-eyed.

2) Adolf Hitler was denied promotion in the Germany army after WW1 because his commanding officers felt that he "lacked leadership qualities."

3) The Nazis estimated that they would have about 400,000 crippled war veterans to take care of after WWII was over and they'd won, causing a huge financial burden on the state. Internal memos showed the Nazis planned on gassing them.

Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:



At the Battle of Gettysburg, Union surgeons perfected the art of the speedy leg amputation. The real bottleneck was sawing through bones. They'd saw through the muscle on top, saw partway through the femur, break it over their knee, then saw through the bottom muscle. By snapping the femur over their knee, Union surgeons were able to amputate a leg in a matter of minutes.

When a cannonball hits you directly, you basically explode and your body parts turn into shrapnel that kill/injure the guys standing next to and in front of you. Your leg would fly off and kill the dude next to you, your ribs would lodge in the guys behind you, etc. Same deal when a cannonball hits the wooden hull you're standing by if you're a sailor. Sends splinters/chunks of wood flying everywhere that lodge into your body.

After every medieval battle there'd be a huge number of wounded soldiers that would die of infection the following week.

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




Sergg posted:

Some cool facts I learned while getting my history degree:

1) Heinrich Himmler was a chicken farmer before he was a Nazi official, and he believed he could breed desirable traits into humans the same way he did with chickens. He felt that, given a few decades, he could make all of Germany blond-haired and blue-eyed.

I thought this was something everyone knew...

The Master Race project is... Ok was taught in loving grade school.

Or is this one of those things where I am being Grandpa Tendency and poo poo has changed since the 80s and we don't teach the important things like proper eugenics programs anymore...

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Genocide Tendency posted:

I thought this was something everyone knew...

The Master Race project is... Ok was taught in loving grade school.

Or is this one of those things where I am being Grandpa Tendency and poo poo has changed since the 80s and we don't teach the important things like proper eugenics programs anymore...

I didn't learn about WW2 until college and that was from the American mostly cultural perspective. To be fair though Saving Private Ryan and the Thin Red Line both came out while I was in highschool so I think I got the broad strokes

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




What the gently caress??

College?

Its like..


Jesus loving christ. If it wasn't for the the Japs making the biggest gently caress up in world history, we all would be speaking German.

Its kind of important. They should have brought it up before college.

God drat it. The American education system is a loving clown show. I mean.. I knew it was, and really it was when I was in primary ed.. But at least they taught us about WWII.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Genocide Tendency posted:

This pretty much ends the discussion on how much the US Euro Theater intervention was critical to the downfall of the NAZIs.

WWII is like that post about the Civil War

when you learn about it as a kid, you learn American Industry Won The War, when you actually learn a bit about it you realize holy poo poo the Soviets did a thing!, but when you actually learn about WWII, you learn American Industry Won The War

US Berder Patrol
Jul 11, 2006

oorah

Sergg posted:


3) The Nazis estimated that they would have about 400,000 crippled war veterans to take care of after WWII was over and they'd won, causing a huge financial burden on the state. Internal memos showed the Nazis planned on gassing them.

so, they came up with the VA before we did?

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

DownByTheWooter posted:

so, they came up with the VA before we did?

Not every captured Nazi scientist went on to work at NASA

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The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

You will find no one to help you here. Beth DuClare has been dissected and placed in cryonic storage.



:vince: loving brutal.

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