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Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




Booblord Zagats posted:

Not every captured Nazi scientist went on to work at NASA

lmao

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vains
May 26, 2004


Genocide Tendency posted:

What the gently caress??

College?

Its like..


Jesus loving christ. If it wasn't for the the Japs making the biggest gently caress up in world history, we all would be speaking German.

Its kind of important. They should have brought it up before college.

God drat it. The American education system is a loving clown show. I mean.. I knew it was, and really it was when I was in primary ed.. But at least they taught us about WWII.

no we wouldnt. the us would have almost certainly entered the war whether or not pearl harbor occurred. the germans wouldn't have likely been able to invade england, much less the continental united states.

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Also WW2 is too large to learn about effectively in HS. As much as I would have loved to learn about how the Lord Jesus Christ passed Albert Einstein the secret of the atom and won the war for the good guys I don't think I misses out on poo poo

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




Genocide Tendency posted:

What the gently caress??

College?

Its like..


Jesus loving christ. If it wasn't for the the Japs making the biggest gently caress up in world history, we all would be speaking German.

Its kind of important. They should have brought it up before college.

God drat it. The American education system is a loving clown show. I mean.. I knew it was, and really it was when I was in primary ed.. But at least they taught us about WWII.

Even if the British fell, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that was a stretch, the Germans would have never brought a sufficient invasion force to American soil. Their strategic bomber force was fairly unimpressive and unless they could bring the American navy to heel their transports would have been sunk before they touched the shoreline.

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

The Most Whimsical WW1 Naval Battle

The RMS Carmania was a British Cruise-liner that had recently been converted in to an armed merchant/troop carrier/convoy escort. She had been operating out of Brazil and was looking for German warships and coal carriers in some islands 500 mile East of Brazil.

The SMS Cap Trafalgar was a German Steamliner to make runs between South America and Germany, at the outbreak of war they had upgraded her with a few 4+ inch guns and a pair of pom-pom autocannons. She had been protecting colliers, ships made to carry large tonnages of coals to resupply other warships and merchant vessels.

The SMS Cap Trafalgar had been painted to look like a British Merchant Vessel to use in attempting to raid British vessels int he region by surprising them at close range. While shored up after recently having received its new skin and escorting some coal ships to sea, she now rested on the island of Trindade. But that morning in September 1914, a British Merchant Raider saw the smoke from the German vessels and approached.

To find a German vessel painted and arranged to look exactly like it.

Ever play Team Fortress 2? Sometimes when your running around you see yourself, it has your name, your clothes, your weapons, but it isn't you. it's an enemy spy trying to sneak in and gently caress up your poo poo. So you just run up to them and burn them to a cinder while laughing manically.

The Carmina's Captain is the forefather of this manner of Schadenfreude . he closed in, but kept wide enough to bait the German captain to pull out and engage away from the island. The Carmania fired first,... And missed.

The (Ze) Germans were more accurate, hitting the Carmania and causing fires on the upper decks, the Brits then fired back and smashed the (Ze Germans' bridge. Both ships were sending reports to their own forces with locations and updates, a few near point blank passes (under 150 ft by some accounts) began to happen. The crews were now taking pot shots with infantry weapons and insulting one another in ways you'd expect from a Pirates of the Caribbean movie and not a World War 1 naval engagement. The German ship began to pull away from the British hoping to deliver a final death blow to the burning Carmania, instead the Carmania managed to score a lucky hit at the waterline which quickly drowned the German adversary . The SMS Cap Trafalgar was lost with a few dozen sailors and her Captain, the rest were rescued by the Royal Navy and help in a Brazilian POW camp for the remainder of the war. Another German warship had arrived to help the Trafalgar, but fled thinking the British were just using the damaged Carmania as a ploy to sink them and fled.

The Carmania would be repaired soon and used as a troop carrier for ANZAC forces in the ill-fated campaign in Gallipoli, but herself would survive the war and eventually go back to being a cruise ship

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




Whip Slagcheek posted:

Even if the British fell, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that was a stretch, the Germans would have never brought a sufficient invasion force to American soil. Their strategic bomber force was fairly unimpressive and unless they could bring the American navy to heel their transports would have been sunk before they touched the shoreline.

Hyperbole.

But theorycrafting the result of non-US intervention gets real interesting in potential effects.

In reality, Germany wouldn't have needed to invade the US. Simply cut us off and force us to either be self-sustaining or cut lopsided treaties in Germany's favor. Given the Reich didnt fall apart when Hitler croaked from Parkinsons/meth addiction.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


the whole speaking German thing shouldn't be taken literally, either

we never won a land war against China but I bet more kids are learning English there than Mandarin here

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




VikingSkull posted:

the whole speaking German thing shouldn't be taken literally, either

we never won a land war against China but I bet more kids are learning English there than Mandarin here

Thats more a result of arrogance and lovely education systems in the US. That and the stupid loving belief that speaking Spanish so we can handle the influx of mexicans is more important than learning languages of nations that conduct actual business.

China, Japan, most of non english speaking Europe have advanced education systems that teach English so they can compete in a global market. The US teaches students broken english so we understand what the Kardashians are saying on tv and encourages the youth to learn Spanish so they can read road signs in Miami.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Yeah, that's a fair point, but I was more talking about how American dominance after WWII and English domination prior necessitated other nations learning our language in the first place.

Germany didn't need to invade the US to get us all speaking German, they just needed to climb to the top of the global ladder.

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene


Genocide Tendency posted:

Thats more a result of arrogance and lovely education systems in the US. That and the stupid loving belief that speaking Spanish so we can handle the influx of mexicans is more important than learning languages of nations that conduct actual business.

China, Japan, most of non english speaking Europe have advanced education systems that teach English so they can compete in a global market. The US teaches students broken english so we understand what the Kardashians are saying on tv and encourages the youth to learn Spanish so they can read road signs in Miami.

Yeah and they teach that we are descendant from moneys and god didn't invent the universe in those godless shitholes which is why WE ARE #1 BABY WOOO

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




VikingSkull posted:

Yeah, that's a fair point, but I was more talking about how American dominance after WWII and English domination prior necessitated other nations learning our language in the first place.

Germany didn't need to invade the US to get us all speaking German, they just needed to climb to the top of the global ladder.

Ah. Gotcha.


Kawasaki Nun posted:

Yeah and they teach that we are descendant from moneys and god didn't invent the universe in those godless shitholes which is why WE ARE #1 BABY WOOO

I have heard someone legitimately claim this.

Might have been the same person who tried to refute the heliocentric model.

This nation is loving doomed.

Lazy Reservist
Nov 30, 2005

FUBIJAR

Germany's greatest mistake during WWII was to attack Russia. By 1940, they had reclaimed more territory than the German Empire originally laid claim to. Had they halted, and engaged in some form of diplomacy, they might have been able to broker some sort of peace arrangement. Acknowledge a free France west of Alsace, give the Poles territory east of Silesia, and allow other occupied nations status as semi-autonomous states. But instead, Hitler decided that the best course of action was to roll into Russia, not realizing how bad of an idea that was. Germany not only repeated Napoleon's folly, but they left themselves vulnerable on three fronts. Within three years, the allies were able to surround the Axis from the south and west while Germany focused on their Western front. By the time of the Normandy Invasion, Germany had already spent too much of its manpower and materiel trying to conquer, then defend against, the Soviets. Fortress Europe, while still heavily defended, was nowhere near as strong as it could have been.

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

DownByTheWooter posted:

so, they came up with the VA before we did?

so good

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Lazy Reservist posted:

Germany's greatest mistake during WWII was to attack Russia. By 1940, they had reclaimed more territory than the German Empire originally laid claim to. Had they halted, and engaged in some form of diplomacy, they might have been able to broker some sort of peace arrangement. Acknowledge a free France west of Alsace, give the Poles territory east of Silesia, and allow other occupied nations status as semi-autonomous states. But instead, Hitler decided that the best course of action was to roll into Russia, not realizing how bad of an idea that was. Germany not only repeated Napoleon's folly, but they left themselves vulnerable on three fronts. Within three years, the allies were able to surround the Axis from the south and west while Germany focused on their Western front. By the time of the Normandy Invasion, Germany had already spent too much of its manpower and materiel trying to conquer, then defend against, the Soviets. Fortress Europe, while still heavily defended, was nowhere near as strong as it could have been.

Theorycrafting this stuff is always fun, but with the Nazis you really only have one play. If Germany had played its hand better their leadership would have been different, and if their leadership were different, they never would have been dealt that hand.

Hitler's natural enemy was Bolshevism and he was gonna fight them no matter what.

e- the pro move would have been leaving Poland alone and signing the Brits and French up to fight Stalin

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

i think a better alternate universe is one where all teh nations gathered together and talked about friendship and harmony and meant it and played lawn darts while drinking mint juleps and it was good and fun instead of the horrors of war :kiddo:

also a good one is someone going back in time, killing hitler, then kirov blimps bomb DC

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?


VikingSkull posted:


e- the pro move would have been leaving Poland alone and signing the Brits and French up to fight Stalin

They tried this.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


in any case, with Churchill, Hitler and Stalin all in power at the same time, something astronomically stupid was bound to happen

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

CSPAM MUNITIONS EXPERT


Does anyone know about the Easter Accords or other diplomatic efforts to bring Italy onside with the UK and France before WWII? Italy siding with Hitler and then attacking France in 1940 is still perplexing to me.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers







Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

i think a better alternate universe is one where all teh nations gathered together and talked about friendship and harmony and meant it and played lawn darts while drinking mint juleps and it was good and fun instead of the horrors of war :kiddo:


yo i'm down with this like seriously down with it

gently caress war

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


uh without war there wouldnt be any cool vid games or movies so check your privilege

Bernard McFacknutah
Nov 13, 2009


VikingSkull posted:

in any case, with Churchill, Hitler and Stalin all in power at the same time, something astronomically stupid was bound to happen

Churchill was a symptom of Hitler, he would never have become prime minister if Hitler hadn't started knocking the piss out of Poland. Everyone thought he was a reckless maniac, which he was and proved as much whilst serving as 1st Lord of the Admiralty. Right up until the day of his appointment as PM it looked like a much more Conservative statesman in the form of Lord Halifax would have taken the job.

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


Bernard McFacknutah posted:

Churchill was a symptom of Hitler, he would never have become prime minister if Hitler hadn't started knocking the piss out of Poland. Everyone thought he was a reckless maniac, which he was and proved as much whilst serving as 1st Lord of the Admiralty. Right up until the day of his appointment as PM it looked like a much more Conservative statesman in the form of Lord Halifax would have taken the job.

That's true, but I was more saying that even if Hitler sued for peace or any other theorycrafting that happens, those 3 guys together would eventually result in a world war. That part of the situation was set in stone at Versailles. After that, only Hitler could have taken Germany down that path, only Hitler's Germany would pick a fight with Russia, and a Churchill-type would always be put in charge of the UK to counter those things.

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




I thought you Brits worshiped a statue of Churchill every morning before you leave for work...


Was I told wrong?

Bernard McFacknutah
Nov 13, 2009


He was the best man for the job, but he was also a deeply flawed individual and he often flirted with complete disaster.

Personally I have a stonking great hard on for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cunningham,_1st_Viscount_Cunningham_of_Hyndhope

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




Bernard McFacknutah posted:

He was the best man for the job, but he was also a deeply flawed individual and he often flirted with complete disaster.

So he was an American?

Huh.. Learn something new every day.

Bernard McFacknutah
Nov 13, 2009


He was half American, his mother was reputedly a bit of a slut, his Dad was the Chancellor. He was real nobility though, from the Spencer family who's most famous descendant was Princess Diana. The family titles got kicked off by a General John Churchill who was another reckless and successful politician and solider.

Apart from drinking, smoking, insulting people and pulling a Ernest Hemingway in the Cuban civil war, one of his favorite pastimes was bricklaying which he was apparently terrible at.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers







Bernard McFacknutah posted:

He was the best man for the job, but he was also a deeply flawed individual and he often flirted with complete disaster.



He was definitely an interesting man. Deeply flawed is correct. It's worth noting the Brits basically threw him out before the war was even over.

Nostalgia4Dogges
Jun 18, 2004

Only emojis can express my pure, simple stupidity.



Genocide Tendency posted:

I thought you Brits worshiped a statue of Churchill every morning before you leave for work...


Was I told wrong?

What I thought too

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers








this dude loving owns

Bernard McFacknutah
Nov 13, 2009


Two Finger posted:

He was definitely an interesting man. Deeply flawed is correct. It's worth noting the Brits basically threw him out before the war was even over.

Yeah, he wasn't a leader for peace, a lot of his social policies and views were contradictory and he very strongly advocated trade protectionism which was impossible with dissolution of the Empire . The British public felt that they deserved a better lot after the sacrifices of the 2nd world war and accordingly voted in a government that set up the welfare state and the NHS.

Nostalgia4Dicks posted:

What I thought too

Don't get me wrong, he really was a hero which is a word that gets overused these days and he was utterly deserving of the only state funeral we've had for half a century. Without him a lot of people believe that we wouldn't have held out after the fall of France and we would have capitulated or at the very least turned the UK in to a fortress and not even attempted to fight the Germans. We probably would have handed even more of Europe to Stalin and with a weaker leader the US may never have entered the war.

I just wish that he'd killed De Gaulle before the liberation of France.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers







Bernard McFacknutah posted:

I just wish that he'd killed De Gaulle before the liberation of France.

why's this?

Bernard McFacknutah
Nov 13, 2009


He hated the British and wasn't exactly fond of the US, even while he was leader of the Free French and entirely reliant on British Hospitality and he schemed and plotted and continually undermined the relationship between France and the rest of the Allies. Immediately after the war there were instances where De Gaulle had the Union Jack ripped down from units in France who fought and bled for French freedom, he almost started firing on American troops (with American weapons and vehicles) because he refused to relinquish territory in Germany that was meant to be under American control. Truman said that if he kept it up, America would bankrupt France so De Gaulle spat the dummy out and said he would partner up with Stalin.

He then spent the next 20 years trying to diplomatically cock block the US and the UK and had a serious hand in starting the ball rolling on the Vietnam war through meddling in foreign policy and influencing the military which culminated in a virtual coup ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Resurrection ) and the collapse of the 4th French republic (although it wasn't all his fault.)

He did his best to undermine NATO and probably the closest the world has ever come to a nuclear weapon falling in to terrorist hands was a bunch of French officers wanted to seize a nuke and use it as a bargaining tool so the French had to set it off as a 'test'.

TLDR he was a massive arsehole who forgot who his friends were and then buddyfucked everyone who helped liberate France.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers







drat i never really followed him after the war that's all kinds of hosed up i was expecting some 'he's a frenchy and i'm british' but holy gently caress

Bernard McFacknutah posted:

probably the closest the world has ever come to a nuclear weapon falling in to terrorist hands was a bunch of French officers wanted to seize a nuke and use it as a bargaining tool so the French had to set it off as a 'test'.


:dogbutton:

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



He was also the wanker who coined the phrase "vive la Quebec libre" which gave a big ol' bolus to the seperatists and nearly ended ripping Canada in half

I still remember that referendum, it was unbelievably close.

Mike-o
Dec 25, 2004

Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed




Grimey Drawer

I already knew de Gaulle was a gigantic backstabbing douche but yeah god drat he was a douche. I wouldn't be surprised if he directly added to the American perception that the French are a bunch of stuck up assholes that Parisians already help perpetuate.

CHICKEN SHOES
Oct 4, 2002


Slippery Tilde

de Gaulle was mentioned in "We Didn't Start the Fire" so that makes him automatically more cool than almost any other person mentioned in this thread :kiddo:

Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


didn't he get all pissy at the liberation of Paris after the US and UK halted to let him go first, and then the people just welcomed the Americans and Brits as liberators anyway?

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

Hillary Clintons Thong posted:

de Gaulle was mentioned in "We Didn't Start the Fire" so that makes him automatically more cool than almost any other person mentioned in this thread :kiddo:

Well are you loving gonna rank the rest, then, or just leave me here hard and half done like your sister

Redeye Flight
Mar 26, 2010

God, I'm so tired. What the hell did I post last night?


VikingSkull posted:

when Stalin says that they couldn't have won without American help, I tend to believe him

I wrote a big post on this in the D&D thread, but basically: the USSR grinding Germany into paste was EVENTUALLY inevitable once Germany invaded and started committing atrocities behind the front line, which pretty much permanently ruled out any kind of conditional settlement. However, what the US materiel supply gave the Soviets was the ability to outperform and (crucially given how loving huge Russia is) outmaneuver the Germans during the crucial years when they were rocking their industry back across the Urals. Without American trucks and poo poo the Soviets are on the same plane as the Germans during this time regarding supply and manpower movement, restricted to the rails and what limited road stock is in theater already.

Would Russia have eventually beaten Germany? I don't doubt it, the Soviets were beyond furious at the Nazis and once they got their poo poo together the Germans had virtually no successes at stopping them even temporarily. But it ALREADY cost them 20 million dead with American help. Without American aid, that number only gets bigger. So they would have "won" the war, and then the country falls to loving pieces.

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Seizure Meat
Jul 23, 2008

by Smythe


the amount of railroad equipment we sent them was loving ludicrous

e- from wiki so whatever

quote:

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars.

Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 2, 2016

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