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Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

MassivelyBuckNegro posted:

yea but the mongols also slaughtered the poo poo out of kievan rus. the period definitively ended when the mongols invaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

And the founding of Moscow as a power center was established through the repelling of the Mongols a while later.

VikingSkull posted:

Fair point, I probably should have clarified it more as west of the Urals

There's like a thousand miles between the Rus and where Subutai started out from, those are the people they swept right through


All of which is west of the Urals

Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Apr 22, 2016

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Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Frosted Flake posted:

Conflict between settled people and nomads, or broadly food producers and hunter-gatherers is a constant for human history.

What's crazy is that the nomads only won out in Eurasia. Without the horse, nomads were wiped out pretty much everywhere. The only Native American tribes that held out were the ones that farmed (Iroquois) or the ones that got horses (Plains Indians).

so uh, what was happening in the Americas for the centuries leading up to the introduction of horses around (I'm assuming) the 1400s? That's a long time to survive as a nomadic people, sans horses.

Also there are quite a few different nomadic peoples in Africa and Australia. Nomadic people's on other continents didn't form major empires like in Eurasia but they were hardly wiped out.

Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Apr 23, 2016

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

VikingSkull posted:

Most of the people's in South America weren't nomadic, some of the largest cities on Earth at that time were located there. The nomadic indigenous people in the Americas were basically constrained to the plains of North America. A lot of the native tribes were a combination, as they'd set up small villages in the winter and summer, and would follow game in the spring and fall as they migrated.

I guess maybe I jumped to conclusions and assumed that "wiped out" meant removed from the earth entirely. That nomadic and semi-nomadic native Americans dominated the majority of North America until European colonists showed up is, in my mind, another example of them "winning" a region. Maybe not in the same way that the Khans and Tamerlane and the like "won" the steppes and Eurasia, but a victory for nomads nonetheless

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Frosted Flake posted:

The nomadic people you cite were wiped out when settled people made contact with them. The Colombian Divide might have kept them around until 1500 CE rather than 1500 BCE, but once Africa, Australia and the Americas came into contact with people with agriculture and horses, it was pretty much the end of their nomadic societies.

Even without Europeans this happened. The great Mesoamerican Civilizations and the Bantu used improved food production, division of labour and increased birthrates provided by settled agriculture and animal husbandry to out-compete ('wipe out') their nomadic, hunter-gatherer neighbors.

This happened in Polynesia as well, where the Maori started invading their neighbors as soon as they were able.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people#Invasion_by_Taranaki_M.C4.81ori

Still outlasted the mongols. How exactly are we measuring in success here?

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Didn't native Americans use to set huge Forrest fires in the areas that would become the great planes?

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:

as in the mongols got their kill on so good it had an actual measurable effect on the carbon levels. they slaughtered so many people and depopulated so much cultivated land that was then reclaimed by nature, that they were responsible for removing 700 million tons of carbon from the atmosphere

Such a green institution, hopefully we see someone take up the reigns

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Zeris posted:

New York is rather large and wasn't quite well populated enough for this to be true in revolutionary times according to my gut. Do you have a source?

American logging destroyed nearly all the forests on the east coast. Hell, nearly the entire country was covered in woods, to the extent that people used to joke about a squirrel being able to make it to the Mississippi without touching the ground. While industrialization really took a huge chunk out of forests in the west most of that was a consequence of eastern forests having already been clear cut. If you look up History of lumber industry in the US you can find alot of resources that talk about how programs like the National Forestry service got their mandate as a consequence of lovely logging practices prior to the 20th century

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Genocide Tendency posted:

I thought this was something everyone knew...

The Master Race project is... Ok was taught in loving grade school.

Or is this one of those things where I am being Grandpa Tendency and poo poo has changed since the 80s and we don't teach the important things like proper eugenics programs anymore...

I didn't learn about WW2 until college and that was from the American mostly cultural perspective. To be fair though Saving Private Ryan and the Thin Red Line both came out while I was in highschool so I think I got the broad strokes

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene
Also WW2 is too large to learn about effectively in HS. As much as I would have loved to learn about how the Lord Jesus Christ passed Albert Einstein the secret of the atom and won the war for the good guys I don't think I misses out on poo poo

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Genocide Tendency posted:

Thats more a result of arrogance and lovely education systems in the US. That and the stupid loving belief that speaking Spanish so we can handle the influx of mexicans is more important than learning languages of nations that conduct actual business.

China, Japan, most of non english speaking Europe have advanced education systems that teach English so they can compete in a global market. The US teaches students broken english so we understand what the Kardashians are saying on tv and encourages the youth to learn Spanish so they can read road signs in Miami.

Yeah and they teach that we are descendant from moneys and god didn't invent the universe in those godless shitholes which is why WE ARE #1 BABY WOOO

Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene

Redeye Flight posted:

Today on "And You Thought YOUR Force Was Incompetent", the Japanese Aircraft Carrier, Shinano.

What, you thought I was going for the Taiho? Taiho's good, but everyone knows that story by now. Gander at this.

Am I missing the serious incomptenece? Looks like they got dusted by their own design engineers

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Kawasaki Nun
Jul 16, 2001

by Reene
loving pre-christ furries make me sick.

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