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Kalit posted:You should actually read articles before posting about them. Germany also seems to support this threat: yeah and talk's cheap. see also: russian demands (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2022 15:44
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mobby_6kl posted:Well that's not great Attacking a whole guarded facility alone has to be a nutjob because any reasonable person wouldn't take that poor chances of staying alive. But a nutjob can also get instructions from the outside, like how Isis grooms potential suicide attackers online. Or maybe someone there was banging his wife or mother.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:47
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why do you think that germany and russia shouldn't be taken at their word?Nenonen posted:Attacking a whole guarded facility alone has to be a nutjob because any reasonable person wouldn't take that poor chances of staying alive. But a nutjob can also get instructions from the outside, like how Isis grooms potential suicide attackers online. Or maybe someone there was banging his wife or mother. don't know enough about the situation (im not sure anyone does) but i think everyone is immensely skittish that any bit of violence could be cited as a justification to invade the interior ministry is reporting that the guy was fired “for undetermined reasons” shortly before the attack QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 15:47
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The Baltic pipeline goes both ways, you know. Nato could pump through it a nerve gas that turns Russians into homosexuals.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:50
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I find it rather disingenuous to bring us up as an example of NATO actively encroaching upon implied passive Russian hinterlands. It's not disingenuous. I understand there's several EE posters in here (including you) and of course y'all's perceptions of what's going on wrt the Ukrainian crisis are going to be informed by your own countries' history with Russia. As they should! That's perfectly reasonable. I even understand why, from the Baltics' point of view, joining NATO was a wise move. But I also understand why NATO expansion would be seen as threatening to Russia. What did the U.S., France, Turkey, et al. gain from the Baltics joining? Just because the Baltics wanted in doesn't mean NATO was obligated to bring them in. You and anyone else can disagree with whether NATO expansion was/is actually threatening or not, and that's fine. But it'd be nice if the newly-appointed IK didn't dismiss alternate points of view as being in bad faith. That seems like a really good way to stifle debate in a debate and discuss forum.
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Jan 27, 2022 15:55
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Why do you think Nato exists if not to bring stability to Europe? Isolationism didn't work out that well for USA one hundred years ago. It would be silly to dismantle it all just because the sort of bully the system was designed to protect its members from demands so.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:02
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Nenonen posted:Why do you think Nato exists if not to bring stability to Europe? Isolationism didn't work out that well for USA one hundred years ago. It would be silly to dismantle it all just because the sort of bully the system was designed to protect its members from demands so. Is this in response to me? I said nothing about dismantling NATO or giving in to the demands of a bully.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:06
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TipTow posted:It's not disingenuous. I understand there's several EE posters in here (including you) and of course y'all's perceptions of what's going on wrt the Ukrainian crisis are going to be informed by your own countries' history with Russia. As they should! That's perfectly reasonable. I even understand why, from the Baltics' point of view, joining NATO was a wise move. But I also understand why NATO expansion would be seen as threatening to Russia. What did the U.S., France, Turkey, et al. gain from the Baltics joining? Just because the Baltics wanted in doesn't mean NATO was obligated to bring them in. I'm neither dismissing any viewpoints there, nor claiming that Russia must not perceive the growth of NATO as threatening. I just note that some people posting here like to pretend that Eastern European countries cannot have a sovereign will of their own, in that NATO expansion purportedly was as a unilateral act of encroachment upon Russia's "sphere of influence" by the United States. If someone were to say "when Baltics joined NATO" instead of "when NATO expanded towards Russia", I wouldn't care at all. If my goal was to dismiss someone, I could just probate them without any consultation or explanation.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:09
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TipTow posted:Is this in response to me? I said nothing about dismantling NATO or giving in to the demands of a bully. But you're saying that the Baltic states shouldn't have been allowed because it upsets Vladimir. Okay, let Vladimir take the Baltics. But oh no, now Nato is the Russian border in Poland! Better let Vladimir take Poland too, so stability is maintained. What's that, Germany is too close to Russia..?
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Jan 27, 2022 16:15
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I'm neither dismissing any viewpoints there, nor claiming that Russia must not perceive the growth of NATO as threatening. I just note that some people posting here like to pretend that Eastern European countries cannot have a sovereign will of their own, in that NATO expansion purportedly was as a unilateral act of encroachment upon Russia's "sphere of influence" by the United States. If someone were to say "when Baltics joined NATO" instead of "when NATO expanded towards Russia", I wouldn't care at all. This is all fair, and I understand the differentiation you laid out in that last sentence. cinci zoo sniper posted:If my goal was to dismiss someone, I could just probate them without any consultation or explanation. This reiterates my concern. It doesn't give me a lot of hope that opinions aren't going to be moderated in here.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:16
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Nenonen posted:But you're saying that the Baltic states shouldn't have been allowed because it upsets Vladimir. Please quote me where I said this, or where you think I did.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:16
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TipTow posted:What did the U.S., France, Turkey, et al. gain from the Baltics joining? Just because the Baltics wanted in doesn't mean NATO was obligated to bring them in. Traditional dances.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:17
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Fundamentally, Russia's conception of it's own security requirements are that it requires other countries to dismantle their own security guarantees. There just isn't really anything to discuss there. Russia believes it is special. That's obviously not true. The only real ability that Russia has to exert influence beyond its borders is through the threat of force, and that ability disappears once its neighbours join NATO.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:18
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TipTow posted:What did the U.S., France, Turkey, et al. gain from the Baltics joining? 
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Jan 27, 2022 16:23
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excuse me, but have you considered 
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Jan 27, 2022 16:26
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nurmie posted:excuse me, but have you considered I will raise you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCUrEIpSJQ
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Jan 27, 2022 16:35
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I mean that’s good food, people make fun of borscht but everyone I know who’s tasted the real thing in Russia says it’s incredible Also part of me wants to see what the hell that weird checkerboard salami sausages from old Soviet catalogues tastes like
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Jan 27, 2022 16:36
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TipTow posted:This reiterates my concern. It doesn't give me a lot of hope that opinions aren't going to be moderated in here. Some opinions definitely will be moderated. For instance, if someone makes claims that Ukraine is a fake nation that was engineered to split Russia, or if someone calls for CIA to assassinate Putin. Or if someone comes in with a talking point that’s deliberately inflammatory or is otherwise difficult to be construed as an act of good faith participation in discussion of Eastern European affairs. Besides, both D&D and general forum rules do not permit quite any opinion in general. In any case, we have an entire sub forum dedicated to discussing moderation problems. If you feel oppressed by my presence, I do suggest that you open a corresponding thread there and take it up with D&D moderators, who appointed me as an IK without me volunteering for the position in the first place.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:38
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:
This. So much this. WTF.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:40
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Nenonen posted:Why do you think Nato exists if not to bring stability to Europe? To be an anti-Russian alliance that projects American power throughout Europe. It's a deal that generally works out very well for the countries within the American sphere of influence, to be fair.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:41
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Oracle posted:This. So much this. WTF. That was subsequently debunked by Finnish posters, the country has a steady domestic supply of nuclear energy, and is further expanding it.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:42
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nurmie posted:excuse me, but have you considered I wish I did not.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:43
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Some opinions definitely will be moderated. For instance, if someone makes claims that Ukraine is a fake nation that was engineered to split Russia, or if someone calls for CIA to assassinate Putin. Or if someone comes in with a talking point that’s deliberately inflammatory or is otherwise difficult to be construed as an act of good faith participation in discussion of Eastern European affairs. Besides, both D&D and general forum rules do not permit quite any opinion in general. what about borscht opinions?
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Jan 27, 2022 16:48
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I’d like to chime in about NATO expanding into former Warsaw Pact and Baltics. I don’t know the WP details, but Baltics basically bankrolled their own armies from 0 in early 90s, paid for Danish advisors, and then sent them dressed in Adidas and hand-me-down equipment to die Balkans to buy ourselves a shot at joining NATO, which was a day 1 priority when the Soviet Union fell. I find it rather disingenuous to bring us up as an example of NATO actively encroaching upon implied passive Russian hinterlands. Dwesa posted:Oh I remember those.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:50
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:what about borscht opinions? Consider being very delicate with your commentary on how much of a borsch’s volume should be taken up by vegetables. Otherwise you’ll wake up to 50 people from Ukrainian territorial defence forces trying to tell you in broken English that it’s only borsch if a spoon can stand in it.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:51
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TipTow posted:What did the U.S., France, Turkey, et al. gain from the Baltics joining? Skype.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I wanted to ask what they were. Now I really want to know. It's actually not that bad, just really heavy. And I had some other similar dish stuffed with pig ears (or just skin???), forgot its name. That one was worse.
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Jan 27, 2022 16:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Consider being very delicate with your commentary on how much of a borsch’s volume should be taken up by vegetables. Otherwise you’ll wake up to 50 people from Ukrainian territorial defence forces trying to tell you in broken English that it’s only borsch if a spoon can stand in it. Is there any other kind of borscht?
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Jan 27, 2022 17:06
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Dwesa posted:Potato zeppelins by "not that bad" surely you mean "best food ever" though yeah it's kinda heavy, and also quite heavily-dependand on the quality of ingridients and the cooking process. some cepelinai (usually of the "school cafeteria, all actual meat stolen by the manager of school cafeteria" variety) can be pretty vile, i'll give you that i cannot attest to anything stuffed with pig ears, but pig ears on their own is a pro choice as an appetizer to go with beer also, idk why borsht gets this weird reputation as some crazy special sacred EE food - it's just a soup, really. there are far more Interesting soups available in the region (eg my personal favourite, the mighty flaczki) nurmie fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 17:07
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mobby_6kl posted:Is there any other kind of borscht? Majority of ex-USSR prefers a fairly runny borsch. Ukrainian borsch, in comparison, can be denser than half of the stews I've tried.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:11
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nurmie posted:
It has a funny name that’s easy to remember and sounds like the Swedish chefs “Bork Bork Bork”
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Jan 27, 2022 17:13
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Grouchio posted:Disco Elysium. Dwesa posted:Potato zeppelins nurmie posted:also, idk why borsht gets this weird reputation as some crazy special sacred EE food - it's just a soup, really. there are far more Interesting soups available in the region (eg my personal favourite, the mighty flaczki)
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Jan 27, 2022 17:16
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Paladinus posted:I think many people in this thread kind of ignore that though Russia's demands are treated as a precondition for not invading Ukraine, Russia doesn't actually even hint to that. Because even without hinting to it, Russian rouble is in free fall despite growing oil prices. Second amphibious group passed Gibraltar about 4 hours ago.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:23
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Paladinus posted:I think many people in this thread kind of ignore that though Russia's demands are treated as a precondition for not invading Ukraine, Russia doesn't actually even hint to that. Because even without hinting to it, Russian rouble is in free fall despite growing oil prices. There is multiple divisions now stationed on the border with 150k minimum soldiers, and amphibious fleet approaching Ukraine. What they say and what they are doing does not align.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:27
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With Russian maskirovka doctrine you shouldn't put it past them to launch the attack in the loving middle of a meeting.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:32
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Conspiratiorist posted:With Russian maskirovka doctrine you shouldn't put it past them to launch the attack in the loving middle of a meeting. Yeah because literally all the armies and satellite watchers and border guards will be too busy at the meeting to notice the Russians sneaking in.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:33
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"Only a person with no conscience at all would invade Ukraine!" *winks at camera*
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Jan 27, 2022 17:34
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CommieGIR posted:There is multiple divisions now stationed on the border with 150k minimum soldiers, and amphibious fleet approaching Ukraine. What they say and what they are doing does not align. They are not doing anything they haven't done before, and the goal is not an open invasion.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:35
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Al-Saqr posted:Yeah because literally all the armies and satellite watchers and border guards will be too busy at the meeting to notice the Russians sneaking in. Correct. Nobody would suspect a thing.
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Jan 27, 2022 17:36
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Paladinus posted:They are not doing anything they haven't done before, and the goal is not an open invasion. I think Russia's preferences for how this would play out were, from best to worst, intimidating Ukraine and/or the West into making major concessions, some kind of actual incursion into the east (whether to occupy more territory or to extract concessions) if they can do so without crippling consequences, and then where we are now where they seem to have to decide between an incursion in the face of potentially crippling consequences vs backing down without getting much of anything. Right now Russia's either engaging in misdirection while planning to invade, or basically searching for a face saving way to back down, and I don't think anyone really knows which one they're doing. Unless the four party talks with Germany, France and Ukraine make any progress, right now it looks like rather than extracting any concessions, Putin only succeeded in spurring the West to provide Ukraine with more military assistance, even if much of it is token. It's still hard to see how backing down wouldn't embolden the West to feel like they can continue to increase that level of cooperation over time faster than they would have done if Russia didn't create a crisis atmosphere only to blink though, which is why I have a hard time seeing how Russia backs down without getting something. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 17:51
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