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Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Suspicious Cook posted:

It is when the defense has to prove it. :v:

Unless the dude Phoenix accuses nonchalantly mentions it, in which case it goes back to being worthless again. (I can't recall this scenario happening, but you know it'd work like that)

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Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe
While I don't think that anybody here is calling for it, the problem with having a "realistic" legal system simulation is that 95% of the stuff that goes on in the legal system is pretty drat boring IRL, even when it comes to high-stakes murder trials. So while the legal system in Japanifornia is indeed pretty absurd, it at least makes for a better puzzle game than Phoenix Wright: Ace Paperwork Filer.

LeschNyhan
Sep 2, 2006

Kopijeger posted:

I find it interesting that you are seemingly unable to bring up such questions as "Why would the defendant attack her own sister?", "How could she reach the victim's head when she is shorter than the victim?", "Why did she hang around after the deed was done instead of getting away?".

Except for the second one, these are speculative questions for the witness and would be objected to in regular court! The second one is a bad question for an adverse witness because it's open to them making up another bullshit but internally-consistent detail to fit their story. All of these points are best raised in argument to raise a reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, there are no submissions in Japanifornia, so it's just the reverse onus.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

whitehelm posted:

Mors Rattus: Are you ok with Ace Attorney anime talk until it passes the LP in a couple weeks (without mentioning the spoilery backstory scenes of course)?




whitehelm posted:

Ok, I just wanted to say that I'm liking the anime so far. The first episode was a bit rushed but the second had a much better pace and I liked most of the changes. They seem to be toning down Phoenix's snoopiness; he stumbles across the wiretap on accident instead of deliberately sneaking back in to check through the drawers.


IAmTheRad posted:

I didn't realize the Ace Attorney anime had started broadcasting. I will behind one week on it as there isn't really anything else that I want to watch on Crunchyroll. Even in Canada where the entire catalog except for currently broadcasting anime is locked behind the paywall.

Hi all, why not consider also sharing your thoughts about Phoenix Wright the anime in the phoenix wright anime thread

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.
Phoenix Wright does have one unfair advantage, namely he can present any incriminating object from within his coat pocket and the court has to take his word for it that he totally found this wiretap in the witness' hotel room, your honor.

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




For that matter, how the hell did he even know that was a wiretap in the first place?

Sudsygoat
Jul 19, 2013

Regalingualius posted:

For that matter, how the hell did he even know that was a wiretap in the first place?

Based on the way the games work, It says ACME brand wiretap on the other side. We just aren't allowed to look at anything from any other angle. Or it was actually bundled in the instructions, and they never showed it to us. With these games, either one is reasonable.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

Polaron posted:

The insane bias the courts in this game display makes me irrationally angry. :argh:

Shu Takumi has a way of writing characters and scenarios that seem just silly or innocuously one note, until they creep under your skin and make you feel strong things. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that a man so good at making lovable "best characters" in moments of humor and triumph would be good at making utterly monstrous shitbags who sow tragedy and despair wherever they go, but...so it is.

HenryEx
Mar 25, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...
Grimey Drawer
The technology to look at items from different angles was only invented towards the end of this game.

You'll see.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Mzbundifund posted:

Phoenix Wright does have one unfair advantage, namely he can present any incriminating object from within his coat pocket and the court has to take his word for it that he totally found this wiretap in the witness' hotel room, your honor.

He also gets to badger the witnesses something fierce, all things considered.

akulanization
Dec 21, 2013

Cerebral Bore posted:

He also gets to badger the witnesses something fierce, all things considered.

Except when they're really obviously evading answering a question and the prosecution objects. Like right now, it's super suspicious that the witness ordered room service in advance for the exact time of the murder. I think we might get to call her ability to have actually witnessed the crime into question, but in a trial carried out under an english common law derived system the fact that she went out of her way to establish an alibi for the murder would be enough to taint her testimony. And if it wasn't, her clear description of the events of the murder would point to either coaching by the prosecution or her involvement in a conspiracy to frame your client. I think you could make an interesting game around gradually destroying the jury's confidence in the prosecutions case even if the system was fairer.

Also, I think that a theme of the games is pointing out the problems of the Japanese legal system. You're honestly supposed to be angry at the gross miscarriages of justice on display since the game is political satire.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe
True, but on the other hand I believe that you're not allowed to accuse someone on the witness stand of being the real killer on the basis of their testimony either. Then again, IANAL.

akulanization
Dec 21, 2013

Cerebral Bore posted:

True, but on the other hand I believe that you're not allowed to accuse someone on the witness stand of being the real killer on the basis of their testimony either. Then again, IANAL.

Probably, but remember the standard here is that the defendant is guilty until someone else is proven guilty, there wouldn't be a reason to have a trial if you couldn't accuse a witness.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm
I mean, we have already seen absolute proof of the prosecution coaching a witness with the Bellhop, which is something I really wish we could call him out on.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!

Polaron posted:

I mean, we have already seen absolute proof of the prosecution coaching a witness with the Bellhop, which is something I really wish we could call him out on.

"Your Honor, the presence of Miss May's consort had no bearing on this case! As such, I had him omit the information from his testimony."

"Hmm, I see."

And that's basically all that would happen. :v:

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING
Y'know, again...satire onna Japanese system. The entire point of a defense attorney is basically to play the same role as Ralph at the beginning of Wreck-It Ralph; pretty crucial to the whole enterprise but everyone else wishes they'd drop dead or disappear or something and stop ruining everyone else's fun.

Mzbundifund posted:

Phoenix Wright does have one unfair advantage, namely he can present any incriminating object from within his coat pocket and the court has to take his word for it that he totally found this wiretap in the witness' hotel room, your honor.

There are definite evidence submission rules in place in this court, they just get glossed over because they're boring; one of the prosecutors in the second game abuses them.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
So... Edgeworth knows his own case is full of poo poo and is hoping not to get called on it? Or is he only doing as much prep as Phoenix?

Aerdan
Apr 14, 2012

Not Dennis NEDry

Glazius posted:

So... Edgeworth knows his own case is full of poo poo and is hoping not to get called on it? Or is he only doing as much prep as Phoenix?

I imagine it's more that he's so used to winning every case he's forgotten how to put effort into it.

whitehelm
Apr 20, 2008

Mzbundifund posted:

Phoenix Wright does have one unfair advantage, namely he can present any incriminating object from within his coat pocket and the court has to take his word for it that he totally found this wiretap in the witness' hotel room, your honor.

To be fair, they do ask April May several times if she was tapping Mia's phone and she freaks out instead of saying "I've never seen that before". Phoenix even uses that reaction as more evidence.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

Aerdan posted:

I imagine it's more that he's so used to winning every case he's forgotten how to put effort into it.

Or rather, he's been putting the wrong sort of effort into it. See him telling the Bellboy to not submit certain things as testimony.
Instead of gathering evidence and basing his prosecution around that like Phoenix does.

Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013

So, the big difference between Phoenix and Edgeworth is that Phoenix goes to great lengths to find the truth, whereas Edgeworth goes to great lengths to win the case...

If Edgeworth actually goes up against someone who's guilty, he'd be unstoppable!

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Basically, this is allegedly an inquisitorial system where the prosecution is allowed to play it up like the worst parody of an adversarial one. Which makes sense, since this is a parody of Japan's hosed up tribunals.


By the way, I recall someone in the last LP thread mentioning a story about how the Japanese police didn't make a serial killer stand trial for quite a while because while they had overwhelming proof, the dude simply wouldn't confess and they feared that without a confession he'd get declared not guilty at trial. Am I misremembering and/or anyone still has the links to the story?

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!

Glazius posted:

So... Edgeworth knows his own case is full of poo poo and is hoping not to get called on it? Or is he only doing as much prep as Phoenix?

Basically, whereas Phoenix comes up with arguments on the fly and has to contend with people poking the holes that arise in them, Edgeworth has time to ponder over his case ahead of time and attempt to cover those holes up. Notice that he didn't even want to allow the bellboy onto the stand at first.

IAmTheRad
Dec 11, 2009

Goddammit this Cello is way out of tune!
"Your honor, I object! This witness revealed information that is very damaging to my case!"

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that was meant to be a direct reference to that movie.

Mors Rattus posted:

: I object! That was... objectionable!
: ... Objection overruled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx32b5igLwA

Dragonwagon
Mar 28, 2010


And that, as much as anything else, led to my drinking problem.

Torquemadras posted:

If Edgeworth actually goes up against someone who's guilty, he'd be unstoppable!

As evidenced by the two games with him as the protagonist.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014



Dragonwagon posted:

As evidenced by the two games with him as the protagonist.

It really says something about the Ace Attorney universe that Edgeworth's superpower in those games is Logic. Mostly it says things about other prosecutors and the police.

JamMasterJim
Mar 27, 2010

hopeandjoy posted:

It really says something about the Ace Attorney universe that Edgeworth's superpower in those games is Logic. Mostly it says things about other prosecutors and the police.

I thought his superpower was walking

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Hey now, let's not talk too much about games that are quite a ways away.

Referee
Aug 25, 2004

"Winning is great, sure, but if you are really going to do something in life, the secret is learning how to lose. Nobody goes undefeated all the time. If you can pick up after a crushing defeat, and go on to win again, you are going to be a champion someday."
(Wilma Rudolph)


Mors Rattus posted:

Hey now, let's not talk too much about games that are quite a ways away.

Hey, it's not like you tried to make it clear at the beginn-

Mors Rattus OP posted:


Ground Rules

1. No Spoilers. Period. No spoiler tags, no winks and nudges, no coy references. All these games have are their story, and I do not want to see anyone spoiled on those. People can get carried away with these discussions so I'll say it again: NO FUCKIN' SPOILERS.

Keep on keepin' on, OP. Really enjoy the style you're doing this in so far.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

Dragonwagon posted:

As evidenced by the two games with him as the protagonist.
That reminds me, I still need to play the second.

But Edgeworth is my favorite character in the series and it's certainly not for his performance here.

RedMagus
Nov 16, 2005

Male....Female...what does it matter? Power is beautiful, and I've got the power!
Grimey Drawer
It's a hard thing to pick a "favorite" even when you narrow it down to the main cast. Every character has plenty of personality, even poor Winston who's main trait is "weenie cardboard tutorial enemy".

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

RedMagus posted:

even poor Winston who's main trait is "weenie cardboard tutorial enemy".

His personality is, "Prosecutor who will play mostly fair"; although, this is still Japanifornia, so only mostly fair.

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING
No, I think RedMagus is on the money. He's not playing fair, he's just kind of the prosecutorial office's answer to Detective Gumshoe.

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo
no. Gumshoe is the best pal.

Though I do also adore Maya.

MollyMetroid fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Apr 13, 2016

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Case 2- Turnabout Sisters
Investigation #2 - Part 1





: I didn't expect anyone to visit me in such a dank place as this... It's really quite... moving.
: Not! You stinking lawyer! I hope you die! Have you come to laugh? Yes, laugh at the fallen Miss May!
: No, not really, there's something I wanted to ask.
: Unfortunately, there is nothing I want to BE asked. Haven't you done enough questioning, you...! Spiky-head!
: (Here we go again...) Please, you're scaring the security guard.
: ...
: So? What is it you wish to ask of me, then? Hmm?
: (For starters, how did you get to be so totally whacked!?)



So, let's get asking.



: About the man who stayed with you in your hotel room...
: ...
: Can you tell me about him? Where is he? C'mon...
: No way, Jose.
: (Hmm... maybe if I had something to get her to talk...)



: Why did you place a wiretap on Mia's phone?
: Aww, when you say it like that it sounds so... cold. So criminal.
: Um... tapping people's phones is a crime, Miss May.
: Oh, and I suppose you learned that in Lawyer School, hmm? Creep!
: (This woman is impossible to talk to...)



: Say... Why are you so... angry? I mean, you don't look like a bad person...
: Ooh, that does it! Bottom-feeding, scum-sucking lawyer!
: B-bottom...? (I can't tell, does she have a thing against lawyers... or just against me?)

Even the badge does nothing useful!

: Hey, guess what. Actually, I, um, really hate your guts. So get lost. Because, well, I'm not cooperating.
: (Thanks, I noticed.)

So, we move on.





: Looks like forensics is taking the day off today. Detective Gumshoe's nowhere in sight. The police really gave this place a working over. I doubt there are any valuable clues left. Suppose it can't hurt to take a look around, though.

Not that there's much to see.



: Mia's favorite potted plant. I guess I'll have to water it now...



: You couldn't cram more legal books in here, even if you wanted to. All the cases that the chief worked on are filed here. Hmm. Are some of the files missing...? Nah, I'm imagining things.

So, let's head out.







: Quite the performance today, if I dare say so myself.
: Oh, um, thanks. Sorry for putting you on the spot like that.
: No, no, not at all, sir! Your efforts today can only help the Gatewater's "rep," as they say.
: Huh? "Rep"?
: Yes! Our reputation will swell as the hotel where the murderer used a wiretap! We can charge a premium for the room, of course. It will be great for business, sir!
: Whoa, whoa! Miss May hasn't been charged with murder.
: I, too, will become famous! "The Bellboy who brought the murderer ice coffee"...!
: (Why do I feel like we're both stuck in the same bad dream...)
: So! You are our honored guest. Please let me know if there is anything I can bring you!





: Nice weather again today. I can see the Fey & Co. Law Offices, of course.
: Ah, yes. We plan to install a telescope in that window, of course. Just $5.00 will earn you three minutes of a "view to a kill"!
: ...
: J-just kidding, sir. Oh hoh hoh hoh!
: (By that look in his eyes I'd say he was more than serious...)



: A bottle and two glasses rest on the table. Why hasn't he cleaned these up by now?
: Ah, I beg your pardon, sir, but if you could please refrain from touching those... It's part of the decor. I call it: "The last drink... before murder!" We'll be famous! The talk of the hotel industry!



: Huh? There's still a screwdriver stuck in that drawer!
: Ah, please leave that as it is, sir. That's the "Drawer of Terror, Hiding Place ot the Murderer's Wiretap." It's set to become one of the most popular attractions here.
: (This guy's serious! I don't believe it...)

Now, to chat him up.



: About Miss May...
: Oh, her? Sir, not to boast but I knew the moment I saw her... "She'd do it!" I said!
: (Do WHAT!? I'm starting to think the most suspicious person here is this guy!)



: I wanted to ask you about the man who was with Miss May...?
: Ah, yes... He struck me as a real "Lady Killer," if you'll pardon the expression. I knew it from the moment I saw him, sir. He and I are of the same ilk. We both carry the scent of... danger.
: (There we are in total agreement, Mr. Psycho Bellboy.)
: If you had a photo of that man, I'm quite sure I could identify him.
: (A photo. Hmm...)



: Could you tell me about this hotel?
: Absolutely! And on that subject, I have an excellent idea, sir! Currently, this hotel is known as the "Gatewater." I propose that we add a subtitle!
: A subtitle!?



: Well? What do you think?
: Um... sounds great! (Whatever floats your tea set...)

And, naturally, we present the badge.

: I'm sorry... All I could think about during the trial was the hotel... I wasn't paying much attention to the evidence.

Time to move on, for now.





: (Huh. Looks like Grossberg is out today... again. Maybe he's avoiding me for some reason?)

Well, we can at least look around.



: Wait a second... Wasn't there a giant painting hanging on that wall...?



The choice here doesn't matter.

: Wasn't it? It wasn't a very memorable painting, anyhow.



: What's this? Old photos? There are two lying here. Something's been written in pencil on the backs. "DL-6 Incident - Exhibit A," "DL-6 Incident - Exhibit B"...





: I'm sure I've seen this person somewhere... Perhaps I'll borrow this photo. I'm sure no one will miss just one little photo. And it might be a valuable clue... I'll take it for now.





Maybe this photo is what we need!



: Hey, the only reason I'm back here is because YOU won't talk to me!
: Oh, so it's MY fault now? You don't just have spiky hair, you also have a spiky heart!
: (That does it. When this case is done I'm shaving my head.)



When we present the photo...



: ... Who's that? Your mother?
: (... *sigh* Looks like I've just been wasting my time.)

No good.



: About the man who stayed with you in your hotel room... Can you tell me about him? Where is he?
: I'm not telling!
: Look, he's being accused of murder! I don't think you want to be protecting him.
: Hmm. Would you have sold out the late Ms. Fey to the cops?
: No.
: See?
: (drat! Hmm... maybe if I had something to get her to talk...)



Maybe the bellboy knows something. Certainly we can try showing him the photo.





: Well, it's a fine photo, sir. However, the person Miss May was accompanied by was, well, a man.
: (Oh... yeah. Right.)

Okay, maybe we took the wrong photo.









: I think I'll swap them...



Let's try this again.





We present the new photo...



: Look, I've said several times, I'm not telling you...
: ! Where did you...?
: (Ah hah! A reaction!) This is him, isn't it?
: What? Who? When? Why...?
: It IS him. This is the man who stayed in your hotel room the night of the murder!
: No! No, that's not right.
: (Nice try, Miss Cooperative.)
: D-do you have proof that was him? Hmm? Y-yeah! Proof! Show me proof!
: (I'm so close!)

We're on the right track, but we need a bit more.







: ... That's him, Detective.



: Um... I'm the lawyer.
: Oh, I know that! I just wanted to say "Detective" once. You know how it is.
: (No. No I don't.)
: Without a doubt, that is the man who checked in with Miss April May. How about I write an affidavit swearing that that's him!



: Well, sure. Why not?
: Yes! I've always wanted to write an affidavit, sir. From hence forth I will be known as the "bellboy who swore the affidavit"!
: Just hurry up and write it.





: (Not even Miss May can play dumb to this!)





Now we can present the affidavit.



: What's that?
: The bellboy's affidavit! He told us everything he saw. He told us about the man you checked in with.



: ...!





: (Okay, okay... she's vulnerable now. I should be gentle.) Miss May... It would be easy for me to hand this affidavit to the police.
: ...
: If they get involved, wouldn't your boss be even more... er... inconvenienced? All I want to do is have a little chat with him. You won't tell me?
: ...
: Is that all you have to say?
: Yes.
: If it's so easy for you to "get the police involved," then why don't you? Somehow I think you're not up to it, hmm?
: (Show them a little kindness and they jump all over you! That had the opposite effect to what I hoped...)
: Aww. *smirk* Poor little lawyer... And you were so close!
: (This isn't working... I think I've worn out this piece of paper's usefulness.) Dammit!





: (Why did April May not want to talk about it... she must know him!)



: You're wasting your time!
: Miss May's lips are sealed!

And from here, we'd need to go and talk to Grossberg and find another way to identify the guy. But we didn't do that.





: (This is it, all or nothing! Time to do a little bluff.) No use playing dumb! (If, indeed, that's an act.)



: Whaaaaat!?
: Even though he should be a witness to murder, this man is in hiding. I'm sure the press would have a field day with his reputation!
: ...! Ooooh! Fine! I'll talk! You... you win, Lawyer.
: (Yes! Man, that felt good! It's great to be alive!)
: Why are you pumping your fists in the air?
: *cough* Now, tell me about the man you were with.



: Redd White, the president of the information gathering conglomerate, Bluecorp.
: (Redd... White?) "Information gathering?"
: Well... I suppose you could call them a detective agency.
: Hmm... So this is the man that was with you the night of the murder?
: ... I'm... I'm scared to talk. I don't want to end up like her!
: (...!) It's okay, I'll just ask Mr. White himself. Can you tell me where Bluecorp is located?
: ...



: (Finally, a lead on this guy!)



: Time to take action!



Next time: Bluecorp!

"Idaho Code Ann. Section 18-5003 posted:

CANNIBALISM DEFINED - PUNISHMENT
(1) Any person who wilfully ingests the flesh or blood of a human being is guilty of cannibalism.
(2) It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of the provisions of this section that the action was taken under extreme life-threatening conditions as the only apparent means of survival.
(3) Cannibalism is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not exceeding fourteen (14) years.

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 8, 2017

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

That Bellboy is great.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015

Although next time, you would be wise to heed the ancient Japanese proverb... phone first!
Redd White of Bluecorp?

This is just screaming:
AMERICA!
F*CK YEAH!

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
You'd think the cops would be appealing to this guy's sense of sensationalism to shut him down.

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Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
Well, Lady Killer isn't an incorrect way of describing Redd White, Mr. Bellboy. :v:

I do like the branching scenes with April May, though. Her mentioning being afraid is probably the closest she comes to dropping her silly persona.

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