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Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


Cingulate posted:

Have you seen a balcony and/or blackboard

Being honest I've last seen a backboard when I was like, 9, so 20+ years ago.

Balconies are moderately common in France and other places.

This is a very serious answer, I'm a serious goon on these here forums I'll have you know.

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His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.
I made a blackboard for my kids.

Dommolus Magnus
Feb 27, 2013

Lord Stimperor posted:

This is correct, can't wait to have VVD be in charge of Europe

Well, easy fix. Just also ban Swamp-Germans, Mountain-Germans, and possibly Slav-Germans.

Surely, Emperor Macron will lead Europe into a glorious future.

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013

Private Speech posted:

I've lived and worked in several different countries as a (mostly) functional adult and I've never even seen a fax machine, much less used one.

Granted none of them has been Germany or Japan.

I've seen fax machines in several EU-country workplaces, and I've seen one being used at least once! I never touched the machines myself, though.

I guess this is a complaint from the opposite direction, but those god drat "multi-purpose" copier machines the size of a fridge can gently caress right off :argh: :ohno:

Antifa Poltergeist
Jun 3, 2004

"We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"



People who still use faxes are the same people who still carry around a couple of papper sheets to look busy.

I just play ck3 and randomly stop the assembly line of auto manufacturers when im bored.

Owling Howl
Jul 17, 2019

Cat Mattress posted:

Yes. However I posit that, for example, a worker-owned factory is less likely to decide to outsource to a factory in a country with less stringent environmental regulations. The capacity to concentrate enough wealth to push tailor-made legislation by buying MPs will also be less of a problem.

Not really. There would be an incentive to limit membership of cooperatives to the bare essentials so there’s fewer to share the profits with or in other words to outsource as much as possible. Apple would still want to outsource its factories to the cheapest bidder wherever that may be but now it would also want to outsource things like retail, logistics, catering, cleaning etc. Simply buy or lease stores and contract another company to staff them and you have fewer people to share profits with.

Companies would either be an elite of very profitable R&D and management companies or exist only to carry out contractual work while barely breaking even. The investor class is simply replaced with privileged workers with the connections to become members of the most profitable cooperatives.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Owling Howl posted:

Not really. There would be an incentive to limit membership of cooperatives to the bare essentials so there’s fewer to share the profits with or in other words to outsource as much as possible. Apple would still want to outsource its factories to the cheapest bidder wherever that may be but now it would also want to outsource things like retail, logistics, catering, cleaning etc. Simply buy or lease stores and contract another company to staff them and you have fewer people to share profits with.

Companies would either be an elite of very profitable R&D and management companies or exist only to carry out contractual work while barely breaking even. The investor class is simply replaced with privileged workers with the connections to become members of the most profitable cooperatives.
That's possible, but also highly speculative no?

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Owling Howl posted:

Not really. There would be an incentive to limit membership of cooperatives to the bare essentials so there’s fewer to share the profits with or in other words to outsource as much as possible. Apple would still want to outsource its factories to the cheapest bidder wherever that may be but now it would also want to outsource things like retail, logistics, catering, cleaning etc. Simply buy or lease stores and contract another company to staff them and you have fewer people to share profits with.

Companies would either be an elite of very profitable R&D and management companies or exist only to carry out contractual work while barely breaking even. The investor class is simply replaced with privileged workers with the connections to become members of the most profitable cooperatives.

this sort of thing is my principal objection to market socialism - it seems to me like you'd see fairly quick consolidation and a new pseudo-bourgeoisie emerging without a strong political element to the system. nevertheless, the point as OD made it stands - if your factory is in fact profitable, but not maximally profitable, you're not going to move production abroad, as you'd then be out of a job. realistically it would also be much harder to shed obsolete parts of a working business. in a preserved market system, there's still a lot of unfortunate pressures remaining which are going to pressure people to keep productivity up (good, mostly) and externalise costs onto the environment(very bad!).

Antifa Poltergeist
Jun 3, 2004

"We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"



Mondragon is a example thats been working well so far, although they do have problems.
Their workforce includes a lot of people that are not worker-owners.
When their small apliances company Fagor went under all worker-owners where realocated to other co-ops, their non owner workers where less lucky, although they do have a re-hire program that prioritizes former workers.

Capital and the debt trap is a good analysis of how coops are more resilient and respond better to the needs of their local comunity, its a interesting read.

Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Sep 10, 2020

Orange DeviI
Nov 9, 2011

by Hand Knit

GABA ghoul posted:

hoooooo boy do I have bad news for you about what they will call the decade where living standards dropped by half, a banana or a steak costed a tenth of a monthly wage and the government put grandma and grandpa into concentration camps for counter-revolutionary activities/protesting

Depending on where you live and who you are, this will either be referred to as 'a market correction' or 'The After-Times'.

Cingulate posted:

GABA ghoul's the only one who has posted any data here, right?

Badly selected and dishonestly framed data is worse than no data

Yes I know these are replies to posts from ages ago, gently caress you I was at work

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

please knock Mom! posted:

Badly selected and dishonestly framed data is worse than no data

Yes I know these are replies to posts from ages ago, gently caress you I was at work

lmao, that's loving gold. bringing up numbers on public spending when discussing public spending is now badly selected and dishonestly framed data. Absolutely amazing. Not as good as that one goon who outright came out of the closet and just said that facts are bullshit because they contradict his assumptions and that we should not care about facts. But still pretty amazing

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

GABA ghoul posted:

lmao, that's loving gold. bringing up numbers on public spending when discussing public spending is now badly selected and dishonestly framed data. Absolutely amazing.
The discussion was not about public spending though, but about the service provided. The US is a perfect example of how the two are not the same - the US is near the top for public spending on healthcare, and their public healthcare is poo poo.

Orange DeviI
Nov 9, 2011

by Hand Knit

GABA ghoul posted:

lmao, that's loving gold. bringing up numbers on public spending when discussing public spending is now badly selected and dishonestly framed data. Absolutely amazing. Not as good as that one goon who outright came out of the closet and just said that facts are bullshit because they contradict his assumptions and that we should not care about facts. But still pretty amazing

You obviously pulled that chart off of Google after 5 seconds of 'research', because if you had any education or knowledge on the subject matter at all, you'd realize that with an on average ageing population like in Europe due to low birth rates, the baby boom, and curtailed immigration not making up for it, health care expenditures are supposed to rise, and by a huge amount at that. A steady increase of public spending on health care inherently doesn't prove anything regarding breadth of care, how high-tech the care is, how good the care is, it only proves that the population is older on average and will consume more care than a younger population. A lot of this public spending is going to relatively low-tech care for the elderly, which is being paid for by cuts in other places (for example in the form of increased co-pays and selling off of services/privatization). The inability to think of this connection and to instead go 'public spending UP means health care UP' really shows your and your crony Cingulate's whole rear end. An increase in public spending does not immediately translate to the quality of care, and even 'quality of care' itself is vastly different depending on socio-economic class (even public spending is earmarked) and age (a lot of it is going towards care for olds, who don't post here, which means you're tossing around arguments which don't even apply to the people you're flinging them at).

I'm a European health care professional and before you reply, let me interrupt you. I'm not here to convince you, or to play pretend debate club with anyone, I'm just here to make fun of your post. It's very bad, and it's also very funny, and one day you will understand why it's so funny. Anyway, if you were interested in figuring things out, you wouldn't be posting charts from 2014 and drawing unfounded conclusions from them. You also should have learned in high school that randomly citing a chart with numbers on it (how is this impressive? How is this something to proudly reply to with 'wow! He's the only one who posted numbers!'?!) isn't a shortcut to a functioning argument, but public spending on education is another story entirely.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

please knock Mom! posted:

You obviously pulled that chart off of Google after 5 seconds of 'research', because if you had any education or knowledge on the subject matter at all, you'd realize that with an on average ageing population like in Europe due to low birth rates, the baby boom, and curtailed immigration not making up for it, health care expenditures are supposed to rise, and by a huge amount at that. A steady increase of public spending on health care inherently doesn't prove anything regarding breadth of care, how high-tech the care is, how good the care is, it only proves that the population is older on average and will consume more care than a younger population. A lot of this public spending is going to relatively low-tech care for the elderly, which is being paid for by cuts in other places (for example in the form of increased co-pays and selling off of services/privatization). The inability to think of this connection and to instead go 'public spending UP means health care UP' really shows your and your crony Cingulate's whole rear end. An increase in public spending does not immediately translate to the quality of care, and even 'quality of care' itself is vastly different depending on socio-economic class (even public spending is earmarked) and age (a lot of it is going towards care for olds, who don't post here, which means you're tossing around arguments which don't even apply to the people you're flinging them at).

I'm a European health care professional and before you reply, let me interrupt you. I'm not here to convince you, or to play pretend debate club with anyone, I'm just here to make fun of your post. It's very bad, and it's also very funny, and one day you will understand why it's so funny. Anyway, if you were interested in figuring things out, you wouldn't be posting charts from 2014 and drawing unfounded conclusions from them. You also should have learned in high school that randomly citing a chart with numbers on it (how is this impressive? How is this something to proudly reply to with 'wow! He's the only one who posted numbers!'?!) isn't a shortcut to a functioning argument, but public spending on education is another story entirely.
I don't understand the psychological reason for why some people experience this intense desire to tear down others.

Just talk about socialism, if you like it so much! Why be this mad at other people? It's weird.

Orange DeviI
Nov 9, 2011

by Hand Knit

Cingulate posted:

I don't understand the psychological reason for why some people experience this intense desire to tear down others.

Just talk about socialism, if you like it so much! Why be this mad at other people? It's weird.

You don't understand because to you and people like you, health care politics is just a game with made-up rules and irrelevant results. Next time just post 'u mad', you don't need to fluff up your post with unnecessary prose in order to make it look like you've got something to say.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

please knock Mom! posted:

You don't understand because to you and people like you, health care politics is just a game with made-up rules and irrelevant results. Next time just post 'u mad', you don't need to fluff up your post with unnecessary prose in order to make it look like you've got something to say.
I guess I still don't get how you go from "I take health care politics serious" to "I want to talk at length about the intellectual and moral deficiencies of other posters, instead of actually convincing anyone of health care politics stuff".

I think we'd all learn more if we stuck to talking about health care politics than about posters and what may be wrong with them.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
I think "I just like insulting people, it gives me catharsis" would be more believable.

Isn't it even consistent with the underlying "This is neoliberal hellworld" perspective - we're all psychologically broken by capitalism, our natural prosocial instincts are utterly degenerated in the dog eat dog zero sum game world created by capitalism, of course we all enjoy tearing each other down as that is all the market teaches us, etc.

Everything else that's bad is because of capitalism, why isn't "I like being mean to other people" also because of capitalism?

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

it's cos you're an insufferable rear end in a top hat op

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

The discussion was not about public spending though, but about the service provided. The US is a perfect example of how the two are not the same - the US is near the top for public spending on healthcare, and their public healthcare is poo poo.

Nah, the original claim was that public healthcare is being curtailed by shadowy elites. You can move the goal post to "service quality" now but, as I said before, you gonna have a really hard time coming up with a good metric that will allow you to compare it over time and it's gonna be impossible to come up with a good one that both sides will agree on. And what's the point? The goal posts will continue to shift indefinitely because the belief that the public sector can never expand again is axiomatic to the whole Doomer cult. There is really no point in trying to argue over an axiom, least of all over one that is load bearing to the whole belief system.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

GABA ghoul posted:

Nah, the original claim was that public healthcare is being curtailed by shadowy elites. You can move the goal post to "service quality" now but, as I said before, you gonna have a really hard time coming up with a good metric that will allow you to compare it over time and it's gonna be impossible to come up with a good one that both sides will agree on. And what's the point? The goal posts will continue to shift indefinitely because the belief that the public sector can never expand again is axiomatic to the whole Doomer cult. There is really no point in trying to argue over an axiom, least of all over one that is load bearing to the whole belief system.
Is US public healthcare on par with that of Sweden/Denmark/Switzerland?

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

GABA ghoul posted:

Nah, the original claim was that public healthcare is being curtailed by shadowy elites. You can move the goal post to "service quality" now but, as I said before, you gonna have a really hard time coming up with a good metric that will allow you to compare it over time and it's gonna be impossible to come up with a good one that both sides will agree on. And what's the point? The goal posts will continue to shift indefinitely because the belief that the public sector can never expand again is axiomatic to the whole Doomer cult. There is really no point in trying to argue over an axiom, least of all over one that is load bearing to the whole belief system.

There are metrics you can use, like for instance mortality from preventable illnesses, child mortality even (US has insane child mortality for a developed nation), overall capacity (measured in hospital beds, ICU beds, n. of hospitals, n. of healthcare professionals and so on). You are unfamiliar with the subject and chose an arbitrary metric in 5 seconds of google to support the thesis that, actually, it's the leftists who are a death cult, and now when people call you out over using lovely data and framing you call that moving the goalposts. Hell, one of my first replies was about how the UK has been lowering capacity going on decades now, so that spending number tells you jack poo poo.

Overall, it's a case study in how posting data w/o any sort of structured research behind can make discussions actively worse.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
I don’t understand how “US healthcare isn’t stellar” is supposed to prove GABA wrong. Isn’t the thesis that health care expenditures aren’t universally decreasing in non-socialist nations?

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Cingulate posted:

I don’t understand how “US healthcare isn’t stellar” is supposed to prove GABA wrong. Isn’t the thesis that health care expenditures aren’t universally decreasing in non-socialist nations?
Yes. But that doesn’t actually counter the argument about the quality of public healthcare. Because public spending can be ineffecient, being more a way to line the pockets of private entities than providing healthcare. As is seen in the US, which is obviously a role model for a lot of politicians.

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747
The thing you idiots would need to do to understand how the world works would be to finally get that it's not Sim City 2000. Spending isn't a one-dimension slider.

So spending on healthcare has increased slowly over time, yes, but how comes at the same time there are less and less beds (despite a growing and aging population needing more beds), there are less hospitals and clinics, the medical staff is stretched thinner and thinner... Where, exactly, is that spending going?

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012
Well, the spending is increasing so the letter, if not the spirit, of the claim, is defeated. Checkmated by facts and logic once more.

Cetea
Jun 14, 2013
I think the entire developed world is going to run into a bit of trouble once all the boomers and Gen Xers retire; in a lot of countries, millennials are just a tiny percentage of the population, and they're the ones who will be producing the tax base from then on. Spending on medical care would become overwhelming for most governments unless new tech can just cut down on costs severely, or if we can easily automate most jobs (and thus making the corporations far more wealthy, then you can get more taxes from them to pay for other sectors).

I imagine in other less developed (but also facing the same demographic crunch for one reason or another) parts of the world they'd just cut medical care for the elderly entirely, and that would give them an advantage (defense funding wise) over states that do care about civil rights.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

mortons stork posted:

Well, the spending is increasing so the letter, if not the spirit, of the claim, is defeated. Checkmated by facts and logic once more.
That's more than anyone else has done though. Is there any actual data showing that the number of beds, hospitals, staff, and overall quality of care went down across OECD? Boris loving with the NHS isn't the whole world.

Osmosisch posted:

They're both faxis powers
Lol gently caress. Seriously though I've worked in Germany for a while and haven't seen a fax machine. Though I was mostly in corporate tech offices where everything's digital so that could be it.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
So what exactly is the claim being debated? I thought originally it was "public health is being austeritied to death in the non-socialist nations and developed nations".

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

mobby_6kl posted:

That's more than anyone else has done though. Is there any actual data showing that the number of beds, hospitals, staff, and overall quality of care went down across OECD? Boris loving with the NHS isn't the whole world.

Lol gently caress. Seriously though I've worked in Germany for a while and haven't seen a fax machine. Though I was mostly in corporate tech offices where everything's digital so that could be it.

Yes, there is, and I even posted it a few pages ago! One of them is a report on Italian healthcare in Italian, but many of the graphs are pretty understandable on their own, and I am prepared to offer explanation for all of them. Another is WHO data, which is problematic on its own as it uses a lot of regional aggregates AND it appears to me either covers gaps with imputed data or otherwise incorporates countries which have gaps in their data for some years (and here we run into the issue of just posting a graph to show your claim's veracity, which is inherently a difficult prospect when you have no real methodology and have to account for imperfection of data). BUT, the global trend, not even just in the EU, but in Eurasian countries as well, and USA, is one of declining capacity (and again, I'm using hospital beds interchangeably with capacity, but it is not a comprehensive index and not a really acceptable methodology for an actual quantitative study). One of them is a report on the state of EU healthcare infrastructure from 6 years ago, which highlights that many countries have been cutting back on their infrstructure mainly, but personnel-wise, and sometimes efficiency-wise, have been improving. So there is a lot of research, and the picture is a lot more nuanced than uhhh number go up so other number go up.

Also, I am inclined to offer GABA ghoul a lot of charitableness, as even a cursory look at the data shows that Germany, possibly the only or one of two states in the EU, has been actually expanding its healthcare capacity (though I haven't looked at geographical distribution, since this is already a bunch of work for a couple of forum posts). Combined with lived personal experience, it is only natural that one would associate increased spending with increased capacity, it is true at home and around you, why wouldn't it be elsewhere?

mortons stork fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Sep 11, 2020

Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."



Grimey Drawer

mobby_6kl posted:

That's more than anyone else has done though. Is there any actual data showing that the number of beds, hospitals, staff, and overall quality of care went down across OECD? Boris loving with the NHS isn't the whole world.

As others have said, posting bad data (Spending up! Therefore no problem!) to address real concerns (People get less/worse care) is worse than posting nothing. It's been said by others as well, but I work in the health sector and the sheer amount of public money being funneled into private companies that provide basically nothing of value is staggering.

Some Netherlands trends at least:

- hospital beds
https://www.staatvenz.nl/kerncijfers/ziekenhuisbedden

- number of GPs
https://www.staatvenz.nl/kerncijfers/apotheekhoudende-huisartsenpraktijken-aantal

- number of nursing staff
https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.i...am-ziekenhuizen

(this latter one is partially misleading as noted below in that many nursing staff had to quit because they didn't get a specific certificate. Also I believe 'private contractors' might not be shown there, but only real employees.)

Especially sweet is that a hospital was allowed to go bankrupt here recently, and then we had to ship corona patients to Germany.

Osmosisch fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Sep 11, 2020

Cat Mattress
Jul 14, 2012

by Cyrano4747

mortons stork posted:

One of them is a report on the state of EU healthcare infrastructure from 6 years ago, which highlights that many countries have been cutting back on their infrstructure mainly, but personnel-wise

Speaking of, more hospital personnel is not necessarily more medical personnel. AFAIK in France for example it's mostly the non-medical personnel that has been increasing, with more staff in administration (mostly for IT-related tasks as everything gets more and more computerized).

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

Cetea posted:

I think the entire developed world is going to run into a bit of trouble once all the boomers and Gen Xers retire; in a lot of countries, millennials are just a tiny percentage of the population, and they're the ones who will be producing the tax base from then on. Spending on medical care would become overwhelming for most governments unless new tech can just cut down on costs severely, or if we can easily automate most jobs (and thus making the corporations far more wealthy, then you can get more taxes from them to pay for other sectors).

I imagine in other less developed (but also facing the same demographic crunch for one reason or another) parts of the world they'd just cut medical care for the elderly entirely, and that would give them an advantage (defense funding wise) over states that do care about civil rights.

Logan's Run offers a solution to this dilemma.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

Cat Mattress posted:

Speaking of, more hospital personnel is not necessarily more medical personnel. AFAIK in France for example it's mostly the non-medical personnel that has been increasing, with more staff in administration (mostly for IT-related tasks as everything gets more and more computerized).

Yes, and even the medical personnel number could be tainted by policy on the ground, see Italian healthcare being offloaded onto private providers who hire a small core of doctors and nurses on a permanent basis and a whole bunch of people on a muuuch lower qualification level (it is Italian exclusive fuckery I think?) who do the majority of the work and are also on temp contracts through external agencies, obviously saving on personnel costs.

E: I have an issue with the way debates on science and data are framed and performed. My last formulation of this was just bitter, cynical nihilism and venting so I took it out while I think of a better one.

mortons stork fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Sep 11, 2020

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

a great part of modern conservative politics is imo best interpreted as an attempt to recapture the surplus value lost to the public sector in the establishment of the welfare state. all the weird privatisations and subcontractor feints work in this light - if you assume that surplus value is captured through taxes, it gets released through the mechanism of partial privatisation

Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."



Grimey Drawer

mortons stork posted:

Yes, and even the medical personnel number could be tainted by policy on the ground, see Italian healthcare being offloaded onto private providers who hire a small core of doctors and nurses on a permanent basis and a whole bunch of people on a muuuch lower qualification level (it is Italian exclusive fuckery I think?) who do the majority of the work and are also on temp contracts through external agencies, obviously saving on personnel costs.

This is happening here as well at least. I think it's used everywhere that ha(d/s) relatively good labour laws to circumvent them.

Lord Stimperor
Jun 13, 2018

I'm a lovable meme.

Dommolus Magnus posted:

Well, easy fix. Just also ban Swamp-Germans, Mountain-Germans, and possibly Slav-Germans.

Surely, Emperor Macron will lead Europe into a glorious future.

Let's dig up Charlesmaigne, maybe he has some ideas

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Cetea posted:

I think the entire developed world is going to run into a bit of trouble once all the boomers and Gen Xers retire

By and large the Boomers are already retired, right now.

frankenfreak
Feb 16, 2007

I SCORED 85% ON A QUIZ ABOUT MONDAY NIGHT RAW AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TEXT

#bastionboogerbrigade

Lord Stimperor posted:

Let's dig up Charlesmaigne, maybe he has some ideas
"Germans? Those are just Saxons who got some ideas in their head!"

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy
https://sambowman.substack.com/p/a-neoliberal-agenda-for-the-2020s

I find it hard to agree with much on politics, but this piece aggregates most of what I do find fairly convincing:
- carbon tax
- careful pro-Immigrationen Policy
- measured deregulation in the form of handing some decisions over to smaller local entities - such as leaving zoning to individual streets

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Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy
- carbon taxes already exist in various forms, and the effect they've had so far is that we're still growing, not cutting, emissions, because money isn't real
- "careful" lmao
- zoning is not the reason behind housing issues, there are more empty homes than there are homeless people in any developed state, yet the issue doesn't get solved. getting even more ~luxury housing~ at stupid prices that then stay empty but are counted as having value on some ledger will not solve it either

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