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Orange Devil posted:AFAIK Finnish military doctrine in the event of invasion by Russia (which is like, the scenario their entire armed forces have been built around for decades) and the Finns not getting stomped to gently caress is to push back to the borders and then stop. Well, the premise is that Russia somehow rebuilds the Red Army and overruns Eastern Europe likes it's 1945, so we're already in fantasy land.
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Nov 18, 2020 11:16
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Kassad posted:Well, the premise is that Russia somehow rebuilds the Red Army and overruns Eastern Europe likes it's 1945, so we're already in fantasy land. which is why I'm not particularly sure why we would want an EU army in the first place
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Nov 18, 2020 11:25
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an EU army would presumably be an army of the actual EU as it exists today and not some fantasy creature, I.e. it wod be wholly subservient to NATO and US interests and be built with integration into present command structures in mind
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Nov 18, 2020 11:28
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eu as a whole definitely has a bunch of nukes so beyond a token platoon to deter invasions by a theoretical insane dictator what's even the point of an army anymore? they're stupid and cost money and keep the MIC going. worthless garbage
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Nov 18, 2020 11:29
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Orange Devil posted:AFAIK Finnish military doctrine in the event of invasion by Russia (which is like, the scenario their entire armed forces have been built around for decades) and the Finns not getting stomped to gently caress is to push back to the borders and then stop. From a practical stand-point, there's not enough Finns to invade and man Russia, even near our borders, let alone Moscow or Vladivostok. The entire balance of the situation hinges on the idea, which is realized by both sides here, that Russia trying to man Finland would be an Afghanistan-level disaster due to guerilla warfare, so it's easier for them to just leave us be. I'm not convinced the same kind of logic would apply, on either side really, if the EU decided to arm itself up and have a huge multi-national standing military. That's sort of the thing that Russia is afraid of, and that hasn't changed in a few hundred years.
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Nov 18, 2020 12:07
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Andrast posted:which is why I'm not particularly sure why we would want an EU army in the first place To bomb countries in the global south, or Greece I guess if they fall behind on repayments.
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Nov 18, 2020 12:11
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V. Illych L. posted:an EU army would presumably be an army of the actual EU as it exists today and not some fantasy creature, I.e. it wod be wholly subservient to NATO and US interests and be built with integration into present command structures in mind Whereas the main theoretical value of an EU army in my mind would be to end the de-facto vassal relationship with the US.
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Nov 18, 2020 12:23
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Orange Devil posted:Whereas the main theoretical value of an EU army in my mind would be to end the de-facto vassal relationship with the US. 
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Nov 18, 2020 12:24
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Orange Devil posted:Whereas the main theoretical value of an EU army in my mind would be to end the de-facto vassal relationship with the US. That's the only reason this is even being discussed in the big rooms so I'm confused why anyone would think otherwise. The point is to build an armed force capable of operating without NATO-aid or in-country bickering. 
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Nov 18, 2020 12:30
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MiddleOne posted:That's the only reason this is even being discussed in the big rooms so I'm confused why anyone would think otherwise. The point is to build an armed force capable of operating without NATO-aid or in-country bickering. The possibility for grift and roundabout support for poorer countries is another reason to promote it. R&D in the rich countries, manufacturing spread out across the EU, recruitment as a way to absorb unemployment among the parts of the population most likely to start poo poo. Which incidentally ties into the relationship with America, with the EU demanding a fair distribution of manufacturing of NATO material, rather than subsidizing American manufacturers.
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Nov 18, 2020 12:45
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It would also (hopefully) put and end to the era of expensive national paper tigers. An overwhelming amount of EU countries have armed forces incapable of mounting any real national defense, much less coordinating with each other. They're financial black boxes that euros go into and american tech comes out of. Not that an EU-army is ever going to happen. At least not within the confines of the current EU supranational structure.
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Nov 18, 2020 12:53
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I'm reminded of the comedy gold of the idea of cross-EU democratic elections. Imagine the campaigns.
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Nov 18, 2020 13:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'm reminded of the comedy gold of the idea of cross-EU democratic elections. Imagine the campaigns. "Kippers vote for us we'll keep the Pollacks out"
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Nov 18, 2020 13:47
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Orange Devil posted:Whereas the main theoretical value of an EU army in my mind would be to end the de-facto vassal relationship with the US. I don't know how that would work if most of the significant contributors would still be part of NATO, if anything it would be a way to tie formally neutral members of the EU to what is structure that will be heavily influenced by the US/NATO even if it legally separate. If anything, I would say a dream scenario for the US. Also, it would probably heighten tensions with Russia since now a "EU Army" is on another one of their borders. If anything I would guess that would be a point.
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Nov 18, 2020 14:55
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Ardennes posted:I don't know how that would work if most of the significant contributors would still be part of NATO, The USA would never allow a unified EU counterweight to its own interests within NATO, so de facto the choice becomes "do we stay part of NATO or do we set up an EU military knowing full well it means we'll have to drop out of NATO?"
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Nov 18, 2020 15:17
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we could just drop out of NATO right now and restructure our militaries so they're something else than funnels of tribute to overseas overlords
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Nov 18, 2020 15:23
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Deltasquid posted:The USA would never allow a unified EU counterweight to its own interests within NATO, so de facto the choice becomes "do we stay part of NATO or do we set up an EU military knowing full well it means we'll have to drop out of NATO?"
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Nov 18, 2020 15:24
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In the event that the EU becomes united enough and motivated enough to create a centralized army of it's own the question for the United States then becomes either kicking the majority of NATO out of NATO and pissing off it's most important military ally, or learning to treat NATO as something more than an instrument of solely it's own influence.
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Nov 19, 2020 03:49
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Nilbop posted:In the event that the EU becomes united enough and motivated enough to create a centralized army of it's own the question for the United States then becomes either kicking the majority of NATO out of NATO and pissing off it's most important military ally, or learning to treat NATO as something more than an instrument of solely it's own influence. That or simply's co-opting that EU army because Europe would be too fragmented to have a coherent foreign policy even if it did have its own army.
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Nov 19, 2020 07:36
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Truga posted:eu as a whole definitely has a bunch of nukes so beyond a token platoon to deter invasions by a theoretical insane dictator what's even the point of an army anymore? Because everybody knows that nukes aren't going to fly if somebody attacks Finland or Lithuania.
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Nov 19, 2020 08:48
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Thanks for confirming Finland should have nukes of their own.
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Nov 19, 2020 08:51
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The US did plan on nuking northern parts of Finland if the Soviets decided to march through, since that'd slow the conventional forces down somewhat (well, this was the theory anyway) and they didn't want those dang Russians to reach Norway, which had / has (?) important air ports for ferrying nukes deeper into Russia.
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Nov 19, 2020 08:53
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Every country should have nukes, tbh
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Nov 19, 2020 08:53
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Rappaport posted:The US did plan on nuking northern parts of Finland if the Soviets decided to march through, since that'd slow the conventional forces down somewhat (well, this was the theory anyway) and they didn't want those dang Russians to reach Norway, which had / has (?) important air ports for ferrying nukes deeper into Russia. That was if WWII kicked off, not if little green men popped up around Helsinki.
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Nov 19, 2020 08:55
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steinrokkan posted:That was if WWII kicked off 
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Nov 19, 2020 08:59
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I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize the Great War as one of the World Wars.
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Nov 19, 2020 09:01
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We respect all faiths here in the Joint European Task Force, so it's all good!
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Nov 19, 2020 09:03
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V. Illych L. posted:we could just drop out of NATO right now and restructure our militaries so they're something else than funnels of tribute to overseas overlords I mean, we could try, but I doubt the US would let us.
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Nov 19, 2020 09:04
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There's also the question of all those American soldiers on our soil, which, I have been repeatedly assured, are there for our own good.
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Nov 19, 2020 09:44
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i sincerely doubt that there's domestic appetite for invading belgium or whereever in the US i'm sure there would be an inexplicable uptick in terrorist attacks and expropriations of foreign holdings, but NATO is actively making everything worse
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Nov 19, 2020 14:34
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Certainly the EU creating their own army wouldn't be a hilarious operational failure as well as an epicenter of corruption and human rights violations
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Nov 19, 2020 19:05
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Lord Stimperor posted:Certainly the EU creating their own army wouldn't be a hilarious operational failure as well as an epicenter of corruption and human rights violations So, an army then
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Nov 19, 2020 22:32
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'm reminded of the comedy gold of the idea of cross-EU democratic elections. Imagine the campaigns. we've tried it already, i still resent malta for not voting for us back in 90 something https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxPdRRj_v5Y
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Nov 20, 2020 12:12
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I mostly recall that Germany would probably have lots of English language campaign material and never broadcast any of it outside of Germany, while the French would go 'gently caress you, vote for me' in every other language.
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Nov 20, 2020 12:33
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Holy poo poo Macron has gone full insane https://twitter.com/zahrabilloo/status/1329696098340859910?s=21
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Nov 20, 2020 19:50
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Al-Saqr posted:Holy poo poo Macron has gone full insane I’d be all for Macron publicly reading one of the CH issues and parading it into the camera. This however is Orwellian bullshit. (it’s for ensuring children attend schools, and comes with a crackdown on homeschooling.)
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Nov 20, 2020 20:06
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It's unclear in the article whether the attendance register will be all children or the children of parents deemed "muslim" by the state. Where is the Twitter account getting its quote from? I mean, I'd assume the worst given that it's France and Macron but is there an actual statement.
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Nov 20, 2020 20:18
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The Twitter account flat-out made up the headline. The article itself makes no such distinction:quote:The measures include a wide-ranging bill that seeks to prevent radicalisation. It was unveiled on Wednesday, and includes measures such as: The implication here would reasonably be that these identification numbers be given out to all children to ensure they are attending school. Apart from anything else, it would be an easy system to avoid if it were targeted just at Muslims by simply saying you weren't Muslim.
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Nov 20, 2020 20:47
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The law is never going to be targeting muslims because it's in fact illegal to record people's ethnicity and religion. Doesn't mean it's not openly being done in response to a "Muslim problem", they're just keeping the bill legal so the Conseil Constitutionnel doesn't throw it out. The ban on hijabs in schools was also written as a law banning all religious symbols. Guess how that was enforced.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:08
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Nobody is pretending it isn't being done in response to the multiple beheadings and bombings. In fact both the government and media are making that link at every opportunity.
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Nov 20, 2020 21:11
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