EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Yes, it's called "remembering things"

Or, in European English, to memorying a things

# ? Mar 28, 2024 09:03

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 21:40

Just Another Lurker: May 1, 2009

It was Esperanto all along. :stonk:

# ? Mar 28, 2024 09:25

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Glah posted:

UK's language advantage of using English doesn't matter one bit because they'd still be performing the UK's act.

I keep saying we should just say gently caress it and send DragonForce.

# ? Mar 28, 2024 10:45

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1775154472605368812
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/denmark-axes-its-defence-chief-failure-report-weapons-system-malfunction-2024-04-03/

quote:

COPENHAGEN, April 3 (Reuters) - Denmark on Wednesday fired its chief of defence Flemming Lenfter, after he had failed to report about malfunctioning weapon systems during an attack last month on a Danish frigate deployed to the Red Sea. Local defence media Olfi on Tuesday cited a confidential report by the captain as saying the frigate's radar and missile systems had failed during a drone attack by Houthi militants on March 9, putting the crew of 175 at risk.

Defence Minister Troels Lund Poulsen told a press briefing he had not been informed in detail about the incident. "I have not been aware of the report given by the captain," Poulsen said, declining to elaborate.
"I no longer have trust in the chief of defence, Flemming Lentfer," he added.

The frigate Iver Huitfeldt, which was deployed to the Red Sea as part of the U.S.-led Operation Prosperity Guardian to help safeguard commercial sea traffic, eventually shot down four drones during the March 9 attack without any harm to the ship or crew.

Lentfer, who was appointed in October 2020, will be replaced on an interim basis by Michael Wiggers Hyldgaard, the minister said.

Wondering more and more if anyone outside the US has working anti-missile and anti-drone systems on their boats instead of fancy cardboard.

EDIT: Google translate from the more detailed article

quote:

30 year old shells
Other problems came to light when the cannon was deployed. The Iver Huitfeldt has two Oto Melara 76mm cannons on the forecastle (the same cannon as the Dutch M-frigates and patrol ships). No doubt to the horror of the crew, half of the shells exploded right after leaving the barrel. �Without having any effect on enemy targets,� the message states.

"All grenades in standard combat equipment are more than 30 years old, they have been retrofitted with a '2005 proximity fuze' [detonator that should detonate the shell close to the target], which appears to be unsuitable for actual combat" , the commander wrote.

golden bubble fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Apr 3, 2024

# ? Apr 3, 2024 20:29

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Well well well, looks like the Danelaw finally came back around and your navy sucks poo poo, now, too.

# ? Apr 3, 2024 20:34

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

At least we're finding this now and not when russia invades

# ? Apr 3, 2024 20:41

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

golden bubble posted:

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1775154472605368812
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/denmark-axes-its-defence-chief-failure-report-weapons-system-malfunction-2024-04-03/

Wondering more and more if anyone outside the US has working anti-missile and anti-drone systems on their boats instead of fancy cardboard.

EDIT: Google translate from the more detailed article

the EU militaries weren't expected to fight anyone except maybe terrorists in mud huts for the last 40 years, so why spend money on pointless expenses like bugfixing equipment, live fire exercises, or replacing expired ammo

# ? Apr 4, 2024 08:32

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

If only there was historical precedence of a long period of peace leading to the complacency that allows bad actors to cause war and for that to have devastating consequences.

Now to take a huge sip of water and turn to literally any page in this history book.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 08:58

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

I don't remember anyone on the left, including this forum, ever asking for increased military spending pre-Ukraine. So why the smug and told-you-so attitude now? Actually the only politician who's been consistent in saying this to Europeans is :sad:

Doctor Malaver fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 4, 2024

# ? Apr 4, 2024 09:47

Glah: Jun 21, 2005

There were murmurs from certain EU countries after 2008 with Georgian War about waking up, but the whole EU defense strategy was a incoherent mess with big countries not doing anything and everyone hemming and hawing between NATO and a framework of more separate EU defense, so it was nothing but talk. It really wasn't until the Crimean invasion in 2014 that things started happening in that drawing down of militaries was at least stopped:

That image is about EU member states so it loses the impact of relatively bigger change from smaller countries. IIRC for example Sweden increased their budget tons between 2014 and 2022, but it wouldn't show so well in graph if Germany didn't etc.

Only after 2022 with full blown invasion of Ukraine, the slope of that graph would start getting steeper. I think at the moment it's close to that 2% guideline. But really the change should have happened after 2014 at the latest and should be way past that guideline, so maybe too little too late and now Ukrainians are paying for it...

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:10

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Glah posted:

Only after 2022 with full blown invasion of Ukraine, the slope of that graph would start getting steeper. I think at the moment it's close to that 2% guideline. But really the change should have happened after 2014 at the latest and should be way past that guideline, so maybe too little too late and now Ukrainians are paying for it...

It was extremely upsetting to Europeans to suggest this until fairly recently
NATO summit: Trump says Germany is �captive� to Russia

www.aljazeera.com (2018-07-11) posted:

In heated exchange with NATO chief ahead of summit, Trump is fiercely critical of Germany for importing gas from Russia.

US President Donald Trump has told NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that Germany is �captive� to Russia because it is importing energy from there.�

In a heated exchange with the NATO chief ahead of a summit in Brussels on Wednesday, the US president was fiercely critical of German oil and gas imports from Russia.

Trump said it was �very inappropriate� for the US to be paying for European defence from Russia while Germany is supporting gas deals with Moscow.

�They pay billions of dollars to Russia and we have to defend them against Russia,� Trump told Stoltenberg at a breakfast meeting.

�Germany as far as I�m concerned is captive to Russia because it�s getting so much of its energy from Russia,� he said.�

quote:
Bilateral Breakfast with NATO Secretary General in Brussels, Belgium� pic.twitter.com/l0EP3lzhCM

� Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 11, 2018

Stoltenberg conceded that there was disagreement between NATO allies over a natural gas pipeline deal between Germany and Russia.

Berlin has been supportive of building a second pipeline to transport Russian gas straight to Germany through the Baltic Sea, despite objections from other EU countries that the pipeline would increase the bloc�s dependence on Russian energy. � �

The US has previously warned it could impose sanctions if the project goes ahead.�

Addressing reporters after his breakfast with Trump, Stoltenberg said it�s not up to NATO to make a decision on the future of the project.�

�This is a national decision,� the secretary-general said. �It�s not for NATO to settle that issue.�

Commenting on the exchange with the US commander in chief, Stoltenberg said that Trump has a �very direct language� but that there was fundamental agreement on the need for �fairer burden sharing in the alliance�.�

German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended her country�s contribution to the alliance.

�Germany does a lot for NATO,� she said.�

Merkel also denied Germany was under Russian control, saying Germany makes independent policies and decisions. The chancellor is due to meet President Trump later on Wednesday.�

## NATO spending spat

Dozens of NATO leaders are set to meet in Brussels on for what is likely to be a stormy summit.

Although the 29-member military alliance�s annual meetings have traditionally been fairly by-the-book affairs, expectations are different this year � thanks, in large, to Trump.

The US president has been openly critical of many of NATO�s practices, often railing against Washington spending more money on defence than other member states.

Addressing reporters ahead of the summit, Stoltenberg said he expected �open and frank discussions about defence spending� and recommitment of allies to increase spending.�

�I think he�s had frank discussions and far more open than he would like at this stage,� Al Jazeera�s diplomatic correspondent James Bays said, noting the public nature of Trump�s remarks over breakfast.

Bays added it was a �difficult time� for the secretary-general with the most powerful NATO member �raising doubts about the alliance as has never been done before�.�

Reporting from Moscow, Al Jazeera�s Rory Challands said he expected Moscow to have a mixed response to Trump�s comments.�

�They will be relishing this wrecking ball activity,� Challands said.�

There would be �no love lost� for NATO, Challands said, which Moscow sees as an �imperial US project� to �persuade [Europe] that Russia is the enemy�.�

On the flipside, Challands added, Russia would likely be �concerned that what Trump is doing is reinforcing the perception of Russia as the enemy of Europe�.

This stuff aged pretty well

As he arrives at NATO summit, President Trump hounds allies over 'delinquent' defense spending

www.usatoday.com posted:

BRUSSELS��President Donald Trump arrived Tuesday at the home of NATO headquarters with a seemingly singular preoccupation: allies who aren't sharing in the burden of providing for the collective defense.

His rallying cry: "2�percent."�That's the amount NATO members are expected to spend on defense as a share of their economies. Only four of 29 allies meet that target.

The latest salvo came in two�tweets from Air Force One, in which he misrepresented the arrangement by which allies contribute to their joint defense.�

The squabbling over who pays for the protection afforded by the alliance has already set a combative tone for the two-day NATO summit in Brussels this week, as the allies discuss its response to Russia's growing military, political and cyber incursions into Europe.

"Many countries in NATO, which we are expected to defend, are not only short of their current commitment of 2% (which is low), but are also delinquent for many years in payments that have not been made. Will they reimburse the U.S.?" Trump tweeted.�

A 2014 agreement did require members to increase defense spending, with a goal of contributing 2 percent of the nation's economic output by 2024. But more importantly, that spending is on their own defense forces��not payments to the United States.�

But Trump is correct that only four NATO members�� the United States, the United Kingdom, Estonia and Greece�� currently meet the 2 percent expectation. A fifth country, Poland, fell to 1.99 percent his year, as faster-than-expected economic growth outpaced defense budgets.

Diplomats say Trump's singular focus on the 2 percent benchmark might be counterproductive.

"The more he harangues allies, and the more he makes this the defining issue, the more difficult it will be for some allies actually to increase spending," said Ivo Daalder, the U.S. ambassador to NATO from 2009 to 2013. "Given that Trump�s popularity in Europe is at an historic low for a US president, acceding to his demands is becoming more difficult for many European leaders."

European Council President Donald Tusk suggested as much Tuesday.�

�Dear America, appreciate your allies. After all, you don�t have that many," he said in Brussels ahead of Trump's visit.

"We do have a lot of allies, but we cannot be taken advantage of," Trump responded. "We're being taken advantage of by the European Union."

Trump has tied the issue of defense spending to his larger trade wars, saying the United States should not be subsidizing nations with which it runs a trade deficit.

"The European Union makes it impossible for our farmers and workers and companies to do business in Europe (U.S. has a $151 Billion trade deficit), and then they want us to happily defend them through NATO, and nicely pay for it," Trump tweeted.�"Just doesn�t work!"

One�particular target of Trump's displeasure has been German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

"Germany pays 1 percent. One percent," Trump said at a campaign rally last week. "And I said, you know, Angela, I can't guarantee it, but we're protecting you, and it means a lot more to you than protecting us because I don't know how much protection we get by protecting you."

Germany's actual spending is 1.24 percent of its gross domestic product.�

But experts say Trump's focus on the percentage of defense spending only captures one dimension of an ally's contribution. Germany's government, for example, approved an increase in troops to serve in Afghanistan, to 1,300. And other countries include military pensions in its totals, which is effectively spending on past defense.

Trump's excessive fixation on defense spending ignores those contributions, argues Jeffrey Rathke, the co-author of a recent study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies on NATO burden sharing. He also said the NATO figures don't take into account civilian spending that helps boost defense, like diplomatic efforts and training of local defense forces.�

Trump's frequent complaints about defense spending also obscure the fact that European defense spending is going up�� even by Trump's own measure.

Nineteen of the 29 members spend more on defense than they did in 2014, and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said half are on pace to meet the target by 2024.

There are a lot of reasons for that: New threats from Russia following its annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, an improving European economy, and U.S. pressure under both President Barack Obama and, more pointedly, Trump.

"Trump can claim some credit for the increase," said Daalder, Obama's NATO ambassador. "The allies are certainly willing to give it to him if he were to recommit fully to NATO and collective defense."

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Apr 4, 2024

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:22

Glah: Jun 21, 2005

mawarannahr posted:

It was extremely upsetting to Europeans to suggest this until fairly recently

It was upsetting for many Germans and German politicians. In contrast in many Eastern European countries it was almost a political consensus that Russia is a threat and defense needs have to be met even before 2014. Europeans aren't a homogenous blob, as can be seen from how dysfunctional EU can be.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:31

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Glah posted:

It was upsetting for many Germans and German politicians. In contrast in many Eastern European countries it was almost a political consensus that Russia is a threat and defense needs have to be met even before 2014. Europeans aren't a homogenous blob, as can be seen from how dysfunctional EU can be.

At the time the article was written, the only Eastern European NATO country meeting the target was Estonia, it claims

quote:

But Trump is correct that only four NATO members � the United States, the United Kingdom, Estonia and Greece � currently meet the 2 percent expectation. A fifth country, Poland, fell to 1.99 percent his year, as faster-than-expected economic growth outpaced defense budgets.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:36

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Doctor Malaver posted:

I don't remember anyone on the left, including this forum, ever asking for increased military spending pre-Ukraine. So why the smug and told-you-so attitude now? Actually the only politician who's been consistent in saying this to Europeans is .

Well, I didn't remember voicing an opinion on this forum, but I always thought the military disarmament in western europe was kinda short sighted, as well as the reliance on smaller, high-tech volunteer forces instead of conscription base like we got in Finland. Felt like western europe was focusing more on the kind of military that was good for sending aircraft and teams to kill people in the 3rd world than actual defense.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:39

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

mawarannahr posted:

At the time the article was written, the only Eastern European NATO country meeting the target was Estonia, it claims

Being 0.01% below isn't too far off to be fair.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:39

Glah: Jun 21, 2005

mawarannahr posted:

At the time the article was written, the only Eastern European NATO country meeting the target was Estonia, it claims

That doesn't mean there wasn't a near political consensus in many Eastern European countries about Russia being a threat or that defense spending shouldn't be increased while many Germans were 'extremely upset' about the idea at the same time. Like Finland just by streamlining its calculations according to NATO standards (like taking the budget of border guard, pensions etc. into defense budget like everyone else was doing) suddenly increased its budget through excel sheet because Finland had never really drawn down their military in the first place.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:43

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Doctor Malaver posted:

I don't remember anyone on the left, including this forum, ever asking for increased military spending pre-Ukraine. So why the smug and told-you-so attitude now? Actually the only politician who's been consistent in saying this to Europeans is .

Well in the UK thread we repeatedly mock our stupid government for having no functioning military equipment, including that our loving nukes are American made and controlled.

We have an aircraft carrier with no aircraft and one of our ships deployed to stop the Houthis had to retire due to rust.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 10:51

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

They're American made, but let's not pretend that they're controlled by anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7qj5iwKMBU

# ? Apr 4, 2024 11:02

Angry Lobster: May 16, 2011; Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

Who could have guessed that people/countries don't like doing unpleasant things, like spending massive amounts of money with no short-term reward unless forced to do so?

# ? Apr 4, 2024 11:29

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Angry Lobster posted:

Who could have guessed that people/countries don't like doing unpleasant things, like spending massive amounts of money with no short-term reward unless forced to do so?

The problem is that Britain does spend all that money, it just goes down a giant drain labelled "grift" and meanwhile there's no money to prevent the outbreak of rickets in the young population or solve that the UK has the shortest, weakest children in Europe due to malnutrition.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 11:48

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Private Speech posted:

Being 0.01% below isn't too far off to be fair.

Also whatever these countries may want, they are still in the eu, if the union is dominated by austerity and fiscal conservatism obsessed cretins from Germany and al., how are you going to increase your defense budget if these key players are delinquent? The result would be that you'd be at an economic disadvantage and would have to cut social spending or something else to compensate. Defense absolutely must be coordinated on an intergovernmental level, but there were (and still are) too many bad faith and / or incompetent actors in the way of progress.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 12:16

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

steinrokkan posted:

if the union is dominated by austerity and fiscal conservatism obsessed cretins from Germany and al.

Thread crossover

mrpwase posted:

Oh boo it's the Netherlands

# ? Apr 4, 2024 13:37

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

steinrokkan posted:

Also whatever these countries may want, they are still in the eu, if the union is dominated by austerity and fiscal conservatism obsessed cretins from Germany and al., how are you going to increase your defense budget if these key players are delinquent? The result would be that you'd be at an economic disadvantage and would have to cut social spending or something else to compensate. Defense absolutely must be coordinated on an intergovernmental level, but there were (and still are) too many bad faith and / or incompetent actors in the way of progress.

Yeah, the period where Europe really should've been solidifying its defense was the period where Germany was at its most powerful, and was focused on destroying the European economy and building up economic ties with Russia. Short of a Polish invasion of Germany, there wasn't really much anyone could do to fix that.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:48

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Yeah, the period where Europe really should've been solidifying its defense was the period where Germany was at its most powerful, and was focused on destroying the European economy and building up economic ties with Russia. Short of a Polish invasion of Germany, there wasn't really much anyone could do to fix that.

Many problems in modern European history could have been solved for the contintent with a successful Polish invasion of Germany to be fair.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:08

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Blut posted:

Many problems in modern European history could have been solved for the contintent with a successful Polish invasion of Germany to be fair.

In conclusion; it's actually all Poland's fault.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:12

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

Remembering when my parents made take Latin in school because 'you can't go to university without Latin'

# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:33

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Lord Stimperor posted:

Remembering when my parents made take Latin in school because 'you can't go to university without Latin'

I knew goons were old, but I didn't realize we had a goon who was alive to witness the French Revolution.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:45

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

The EU would be immeasurably better if it conducted all business in Latin.

# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:47

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

spreadsheets would be a lot more fun in roman numerals

# ? Apr 4, 2024 22:13

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Lord Stimperor posted:

spreadsheets would be a lot more fun in roman numerals

"+" being overloaded for both addition and string concatenation would almost make sense

# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:55

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Yeah, the period where Europe really should've been solidifying its defense was the period where Germany was at its most powerful, and was focused on destroying the European economy and building up economic ties with Russia. Short of a Polish invasion of Germany, there wasn't really much anyone could do to fix that.

this was also the time when Poland was a catholic proto-fascist state sooo

# ? Apr 5, 2024 06:06

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

maybe selling rearmament was unpopular for the past decades or so since all we did with them militaries is aid the americans in inflicting misery on the world's poor?

oh yeah i think of afghanistan and iraq and go yeah, sure love that several thousand years' worth on hospital upkeep went into that

# ? Apr 5, 2024 06:57

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

NihilCredo posted:

"+" being overloaded for both addition and string concatenation would almost make sense

VENI SIXFIVEHUNDREDANDONE SIXONEHUNDREDANDONE

# ? Apr 5, 2024 11:41

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

A Buttery Pastry posted:

In conclusion; it's actually all Poland's fault.

If we all do our part to aid it's rise Greater Poland will defend us from both Putin and the schwarze null at the same time

(poor Estonia seems to have been abandoned to defend itself from Russia's avarice though for some reason..)

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:25

szary: Mar 12, 2014

FYI people from Wielkopolska are way more stingy that Germans will ever be

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:45

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Just have them dismantle all of German infrastructure and sell it in exchange for weapons and lots of vodka

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:15

Herman Merman: Jul 6, 2008

mortons stork posted:

oh yeah i think of afghanistan and iraq and go yeah, sure love that several thousand years' worth on hospital upkeep went into that

again

# ? Apr 5, 2024 17:37

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Lord Stimperor posted:

spreadsheets would be a lot more fun in roman numerals

from experience, theyre a pain in the rear end

# ? Apr 5, 2024 18:47

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

mortons stork posted:

maybe selling rearmament was unpopular for the past decades or so since all we did with them militaries is aid the americans in inflicting misery on the world's poor?

oh yeah i think of afghanistan and iraq and go yeah, sure love that several thousand years' worth on hospital upkeep went into that

Let's not pretend Europeans are helplessly and unwillingly being dragged along. Europeans broadly supported the Afghanidtan war and absolutely wanted intervention in Kosovo and Libya and pushed for one in Sytia. In fact, I think France and the UK wanted to do a lot more in Libya and Syria but the Americans were unwilling to commit.

The Iraq War stands out as an American ideological crusade but famously we could choose to just not do that like France, Germany, Sweden et al.

# ? Apr 6, 2024 05:20

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 21:40

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

UK voted against further action in Syria back when France were pushing for Georges-Picot 2.0

# ? Apr 6, 2024 08:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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