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Melchiresa posted:For your backgrounds - I'm torn between 2 or 3! 3 makes me think of the little feral kid from Thunderdome Hell yeah. I'll update my sheet for the final version this weekend. Thanks for your regular responses to help flesh out this character concept!
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Mar 11, 2016 03:13
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Melchiresa posted:As far as scale/shell armor, I'll go with leatherworker's tools. I'd bother to ask if it'd be smith's tools for something like a Bone->Heavy Armor equivalent, but with the crafting rules it isn't really feasible to make heavy armor during a campaign unless you're planning to have like half year time skips where we can do nothing but settle in and craft objects  .e: Doing some more background tweaking too as I forgot warlocks don't have to get their pact from the sorcerer-kings specifically, infernal pacts and such are still technically available to them. Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Mar 11, 2016 |
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Mar 11, 2016 06:58
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Melchiresa, talked it over with Waador and I'm thinking about switching to the UA ranger. That cool? Also how much backstory are you looking for? From the OP I just went with the "why are you here" thing.
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Mar 11, 2016 16:39
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Obsidian, Guardian Spirit of the Dune Sea Before he was claimed body and soul by the Dune Sea, the elf known as Obsidian was just a youngling from one of the nomadic tribes that navigated the trackless wastes, herding kanks and alternately trading with or raiding settlements at the fringes of their territory. As was the custom of the Darkened Moon tribe when its members reached physical maturity, he was sent out into the desert on his own to prove himself worthy of becoming a full member of the tribe. After all, anyone who could not take care of him- or herself would only be a burden to the tribe — one they could ill afford given the scarcity of resources available among the hostile terrain. Better, then, that such a one die alone than drag the rest of the tribe down with them. And so it was that when he did not return from his foray at the appointed time, his tribe did not mourn for him. They simply assumed that he was killed by the desert or one of the innumerable hostile creatures inhabiting it, and they moved on. But in truth, Obsidian chose not to return to his tribe -- at least, not at first. For it was during his time alone in the wilderness that he once again heard the Voice of the Earth. It was Singing to him. He had been taught as a child that the Songs he occasionally heard were only in his imagination — they were merely the shifting of sand dunes above the hard-packed ground, or the call of a distant herd beast, or some other natural phenomenon. But when he heard the Song again, he knew in an instant how wrong the others were. And so he followed the haunting melody deeper and deeper into the wastes, until he came upon a small cave cut off from the outside world by a never-ending sandstorm. It was there that he learned the truth about the nature of the Earth upon which innumerable generations of mortal beings had trod unawares. He discovered that Life was the culmination, the crowning achievement of all the primordial urges of the Earth as it passed through countless Ages — even those forgotten Ages that had passed into myth long before the rise of the Green Age. As this truth began to settle into his soul, a Power awakened within him. Not only could he hear the Earth Sing, but he learned how to join his own voice to its endless refrain, so that even the rocks and the dust -- indeed, even the dust forming his own body -- acceded to his will. Armed with the strength and fortitude and vitality of Earth itself, he soon left his isolation to return to the realms inhabited by mortals. **** Those in the elven caravan who survived the ambush by the giants only to find themselves mired in the treacherous silt basin thought he was a ghost, striding with impossible grace and speed over the deadly terrain as if it were solid rock. But as he raised great stones from below to right their carts, and treated their wounded with both mundane and magical arts, they quickly realized that he had not come to claim their souls for the Gray. After he guided them from that place of death to a life-giving oasis, they listened to his words, the words that the Earth spoke to him. They had not his ears to hear the Song, however, so more than one of them thought him mad. But they could not deny that, despite (or perhaps because of) his madness, he had saved them all. As he ventured on among the desert tribes, preaching, advising, healing, and guiding, word of the Guardian Spirit of the Dune Sea spread, until his name and his deeds were spoken of with equal parts bemused curiosity and hushed reverence by every tribe within a week’s travel (quite a long distance if the one traveling is an elf). And so it was that his name was spoken of to Jihae, who sought the aid of the Guardian Spirit of the Dune Sea to incline the Gaze of the Gods once more toward mortals. As Obsidian listened to Jihae’s plea, he again heard beneath it the Song, compelling him to act. For what were the Gods, after all, but one more way in which Life arose from the Earth — perhaps the most potent form of life in all the Ages past and all the Ages to come. If the Earth sought to restore existence to its divine creations yet again, then Obsidian would be the mortal hands through which its goal would be accomplished. **** If you've read Treason by Orson Scott Card, I'm going for something like the people from the land of Schwartz who commune with the Earth itself. Or alternately: He thinks he's a mystically-empowered servant of the ineffable, all-powerful Earth? What was he smoking when he was in that cave all by himself? Obsidian, Guardian Spirit of the Dune Sea posted:Race: TychoBrahesNose fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 12:34
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TychoBrahesNose posted:Finally, I’m stuck on what Feat to acquire. Athletics certainly fits with being an Elf, and allows for more flexibility in movement. Alternately, Mobility would give an awesomely ridiculous base movement rate (45’) and could also be useful in combat (I envision being in the middle of melee regularly). Meanwhile, another option I’m looking at is Resilient — I could see either Dex or Con being useful, but I’d probably pick Con. Finally, Healer would be very useful if healing magic is restricted, though I already have the Medicine skill and proficiency with Healer/Herbalist Kit (as well as Goodberry, potentially). The feat choice might come down to what the party makeup looks like. If it ends up being you, two monks and a fighter I'd say you need the healer feat badly. If there's two clerics and a druid the situation obviously becomes a bit less dire. Having played a number of games that start from level 1 I can say that Healer makes the game flow a lot faster and be a bit more engaging, as you end up not requiring a short rest after every single encounter. There's an argument that it drops off in utility after a few levels but I don't know if that's any less true of any of the other feats, wherein things like athlete and mobility start to matter less when you can literally fly and cast freedom of movement. The only other thing I would really want to comment on is probably game design delta between 4E and 5E. A +3 bonus to stealth from clothing is probably significant in the context of bounded accuracy, so we might want to think about that, especially because you very likely wouldn't be the only person to buy it if it gets picked up (at least half the applicants are proficient in stealth, and also elves, or half-elves, or raised by elves). However 5E does allow for situational advantages (such as, perhaps, camouflaged clothing) to provide advantage to an appropriate check, so maybe it is reasonable that elves have desert clothing that provides advantage to stealth checks? Which is effectively a +5 bonus on the numbers over time. You would definitely need some kind of edge to survive as a nomad wandering the wilderness, given what else lives there. The challenge there is that this is sort of the function of an uncommon magic item (being boots of elvenkind which effectively give +5 to stealth, with a cloak of elvenkind having that effect and another rider to effectively give +10 to stealth), and effectively purchasing an uncommon magic item from level 1 onwards (or maybe it's a minor magic item, if it is only providing half that bonus?). There would be two counterpoints to that, which are that boots of elvenkind work everywhere, whereas camouflaged clothing would probably only work in one type of terrain (which, in Athas, is admittedly close to the same thing), but that is a big technical difference between the two items. As well, buying magic items (or finding them, or whatever) is normally quite difficult, if not impossible, in Athas unless you're the lapdog of a sorcerer-king. So while this may deviate a bit from 5e core, it may actually be necessary to replace magical items with setting-specific items that are mundane but designed cleverly enough to provide similar benefits. Ultimately it isn't my game so who gives a poo poo what I think, but it probably is worth having the discussion because it will inform how the game plays with regard to advancement via magic items or mundane equivalents, and thus whether those mundane equivalents can be crafted sooner than they might otherwise ever be found. That said if we end up with a path towards +3 to stealth across the board for the party I'm all for it, just worried that it at first isn't immediately apparent that literally everyone would buy this if it springs into existence. Waador fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 16:44
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I feel like Goodberry shouldn't be available in this setting, or at least shouldn't provide a day's worth of food for 5 creatures. Any spell that creates or amplifies food or water seems kind of wrong. Sort of like back in the day when people wanted to play warforged in dark sun because they didn't need to eat drink breathe or sleep and were immune to exhaustion.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:34
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slydingdoor posted:I feel like Goodberry shouldn't be available in this setting, or at least shouldn't provide a day's worth of food for 5 creatures. Any spell that creates or amplifies food or water seems kind of wrong. Sort of like back in the day when people wanted to play warforged in dark sun because they didn't need to eat drink breathe or sleep and were immune to exhaustion. > >> Bless Element*: Makes holy element. > >> Create Element*: Create a small amount of patron element. >> Curse Element*: Makes unholy element. > >> Worm’s Breath*: Subjects can breathe underwater, in silt or earth. > >> Surface Walk*: Subject treads on unstable surfaces as if solid. > >> Control Tides*: Raises, lowers, or parts bodies of water or silt. > >> Elemental Strike*: Smites foes divine and elemental energy. > The most interesting ones from an impact-to-setting perspective are likely the changes to 'create or destroy water' and 'bless water', as elemental and para-elemental clerics were restricted to only creating their associated element. This left water clerics in extremely high demand, as only they among clerics could create fresh water, while the others were left making generally worthless fire, earth, silt, and so on. Ironically this appears like it didn't apply to druids as they didn't have a single elemental patron, which was how the restriction was applied by the spell to exclusively limit clerics. The same raw deal was applied for bless element, since storing holy water or holy earth is a hell of a lot easier than storing holy wind. Interestingly goodberry doesn't appear to have actually been deleted from the spell list for the setting. Going back to the original TSR 2438 Dark Sun Revised Campaign Setting (1995) and TSR 2400 Dark Sun Campaign Setting (1991), goodberry was listed as a second-level spell available to the 'sphere of the cosmos' [right below a very interesting-sounding spell called 'Frisky Chest'], which was essentially the unrestricted spell list from which all divine clerics could cast, on top of their element-restricted spell list. It doesn't appear that the spell was deleted from the spell list in either of third edition or fourth edition thereafter. That seems to be the history of the matter anyway. There may well be a separate discussion to be had on whether or not the spell list should be modified to achieve the right feel for the game we're aiming for here, regardless of the setting rules. That said, the mechanics of environmental effects are probably also worth highlighting. 5E DMG, page 110 posted:Extreme Heat 5E PHB, page 185 posted:Food Dark Sun Campaign Setting, 3.5e posted:Thousands of years of reckless spellcasting and epic wars have turned Athas into a barren world, on the verge of an ecological collapse. From the first moments of dawn until the last twinkling of dusk, the crimson sun shimmers in the olive–tinged sky like a fiery puddle of blood, creating temperatures up to 150° F (65° C) by late afternoon. Water is scarce, so most Athasians need to come up with alternative solutions for dealing with the heat or perish. > The party will require about 2 gallons per day (or more in extreme heat) per person in order to traverse the wasteland, which is about 17 pounds of water per day per person. > The party will also require about 1 pound of food per day per person, upping the overall ration requirement per day of travel to 18 pounds per day per person when water is factored in. That said, this is unclear how it would interact with the outlander feature, which states that a player "can find food and fresh water for yourself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth." Would this be interpreted to mean it doesn't work, as the land provides essentially no water? Or would it be interpreted to mean that the "five other people each day" is cut in half, effectively, since your water requirements are double from the normal state? Or does it mean both, meaning that you can only provide for 2.5 people per day in this heat, but still can't because there's no water to be found? Beyond that, there's an additional interesting element to it. Purely from a level 1 PC perspective, if you were to use create water and goodberry to safely traverse the wilderness (assuming the spells are available to your party), create water only generates 10 gallons of water in a level 1 spell slot, of which you only have 2 per day. That is enough water for 5 PCs to traverse the wasteland safely per spell slot, and if you add in goodberry that is enough food for 10 PCs (or 5 PCs and some traveling companion NPCs) to traverse the wilderness without needing to worry about food. While this does seem to trivialize the setting's main theme on first pass, in context, as a level 1 PC one of your players has to spend all of his spell slots before combat even happens to ensure you have enough food to eat and water to drink that day. That is a very non-trivial impact to party strength at level 1, though admittedly it does become less relevant as the number of spell slots available increases. Anyway, those are just some data points on the matter. I am interested to know where we land on this issue since I will otherwise probably end up being the mobile vending machine of food and water for the party (which I am fine with), but how we approach this will inform my decisions on spells prepared, and how I will have to approach combat accordingly, so would like to ensure we all have a plan we understand. Waador fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 20:35
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slydingdoor posted:Melchiresa, talked it over with Waador and I'm thinking about switching to the UA ranger. That cool? Gonna go with no on the UA Ranger. Ambuscade seems a bit broken to me  As far as backstory - you can be as detailed as you like! All I ask for is some sort of a motivation. Backgrounds may end up being somewhat relevant (but not in a major way - just to make things more interesting further along!). It's really up to you how much you want to write. ETA Re: Discussion of magic & character creation These are good questions. If it's okay with you guys, I'll respond to this tomorrow once I've had some time to think it over in more detail? I don't want to make an off the cuff decision only to have to tweak it later. That being said, I'm probably going to end up making some kind of a house rule regarding the Extreme Heat, as it's pretty dumb considering the PCs are all Athasian natives. Unless one of you ends up being some kind of alien... If you absolutely would like an answer tonight, let me know and I'll try to come up with something - it just may not be terribly detailed. Melchiresa fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Mar 13, 2016 |
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Mar 13, 2016 01:31
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I don't think there's a need for absolutely an answer tonight, it's just probably important to figure out before the game starts. If anything it makes more sense for you to think about all the pieces to ensure you're happy with it so you don't end up getting annoyed when whatever thing it is comes up later.
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Mar 13, 2016 04:57
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Regarding the "Elven Clothing", I think the 5E "Tool" mechanic is relevant here. Using Tools gives your Proficiency bonus to the activity you are attempting, so presumably this Tool used for hiding would start out by giving a +2 bonus. But then would it require proficiency in the Tool to use properly? And if so, why not just have Stealth Proficiency instead, and have the proficiency bonus on all things Stealth-related? To attempt an answer my own question: Elves do have a Trait (Mask of the Wild) that lets them hide while only lightly obscured, though curiously they do not actually get proficiency in Stealth. In general Tool proficiencies have more limited applicability than Skill proficiencies, so giving Elves an extra Tool Proficiency (in "Elven Clothing") would not be as disruptive to game balance as a whole extra Skill proficiency. So maybe this trait confers the appropriate Tool proficiency? Or maybe this clothing is simply how they actually do their hiding when lightly obscured, and it doesn't confer any mechanical bonus beyond allowing access to the Trait? In any case, I'm also curious about what you think is a reasonable cost for Elven Clothing: 30GP is within the normal range for Tools, and I also like the idea that if you want that clothing to accommodate armor it costs more, but I don't have a really strong opinion in any case. If I'm not buying this, I'm just going to get a beast of burden to carry all my extra water, especially if the desert environment is going to be as dangerous as advertised... Speaking of which, I do think Goodberry is incredibly powerful in the Dark Sun setting, much like Create (Food &) Water and the Wanderer Feature from the Outlander Background. Perhaps it's better to simply move Goodberry and similar spells up to a higher level -- say, 3rd? What I don't want to do is render much of what is uniquely treacherous about the Dark Sun setting irrelevant with a simple first level spell. Just conceptually speaking, however, I do think the Earth Elemental Priest should be able to dip into spells from Domains like Nature or Life or Plants, but I'm perfectly willing to negotiate just exactly what that looks like. Finally, Waador makes a good point about Feats (especially the utility of Healer), so unless it's crucial for me to pick a Feat now, I think I'll hold off on making a selection until the party composition is determined. TychoBrahesNose fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 00:22
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Thri-Kreen look like fun. If these traits are in play, I'd be down for some big cricket wuxia. ASI's: +1 DEX, +1 WIS Speed: 30 ft. Exoskeleton: AC = 13+DEX Multiple Limbs: bonus unarmed strike in combat
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Mar 14, 2016 02:08
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Waador posted:[Food and Water and Spells and Thangs] I personally really like those spell conversions, though I think keeping Create Water on all Clerics would be good to not pigeonhole the party into taking a water cleric. Regarding food and water spells and abilities... I personally think they're are ok for the setting but need to be tweaked to make them a lot less spamable. The one way to do it is you could just bumped up a level or two like you suggested, but I'm not sure I like that too much since it doesn't give you an "emergency option" at low levels. The other thing I think would work is halving the effectiveness of survival and making spell effectiveness scale with spell slot, e.g. 1st level slot gives enough for 2 people, 2nd gives enough for 4, 3rd gives enough for 6 (or even just halved 3/1st 6/2nd). I kind of prefer this approach because using a spell slot is definitely a large penalty in and of itself (especially at early levels, where realistically more of the environmental trouble will be), and it gives you somewhat of an emergency out, at a pretty big cost (especially if the effectiveness is halved, and again), since even at higher levels you'll still probably feel the 2nd or 3rd level slot you'll be using to make food/water, and even missing 3 level 1 slots is losing a spells you can fling around. I know the setting is supposed to be really dangerous, but I personally think giving up essentially giving up multiple level 1 slots or 1 lvl 1 and 1 lvl 2 slot or a level 3 slot to give a party of 6 water or food in case of emergency is fair, and it puts a pretty significant dent into combat effectiveness, just in case you aren't able to keep supplied. For outlander, I think the whole "provide food and water" needs to be scrapped and replaced with something else, since it kind of trivializes the setting. My proposed changes: Goodberry: 2 berries/spell slot appear in your hand [...] provides food nourishment, but not water Create Water: 2gal/spell slot water (or 4 if we're using hot weather rules) Create Food and Water: 3 lbs food, 3 gal/water (or 4/4? or something like that? The idea is to make it less powerful than a Lvl 3 Create Water or Goodberry since it's doing both) Outlander: {No food or water perk}, can always find north, {some other feature related to knowing the land probably too? Maybe related to roads?) Look Around You fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 08:09
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My response on this one is definitely going to go into more detail than most people will want to read through, but it is probably worth doing for anyone who does want to go through it. I am largely putting it to paper here so that I understand it myself and have a frame of reference, so if you can't be bothered to read through it I wouldn't worry about it. That said, I think I may have tackled your points out of order, but I think I got all of them.Look Around You posted:For outlander, I think the whole "provide food and water" needs to be scrapped and replaced with something else, since it kind of trivializes the setting. > This refers to the default state, where a character requires a gallon of water and a pound of food per day to survive. I don't think there is any reason to interpret this background as scaling with extreme heat, so out of the gates it provides half its normal benefit in Athas, allowing you to effectively find 6 pounds of food and 6 gallons of water per day, which is enough water to sustain 3 people. > It is also subject to the land offering the necessary small game and water. Water does, in general, exist in the desert. Otherwise the setting wouldn't have nomadic elven populations or other groups able to survive in the wasteland. However, the desert probably does contain dead zones where there simply isn't any water for miles. An unwritten but obvious benefit of the outlander background in these cases is that it would let you know you're entering a dead zone before you're in too deep. As a result, exclusively having the outlander background isn't enough to keep a party alive in the wasteland. Six gallons of water per day will sustain three people, but in a party of four or more, that simply isn't enough. You're still at risk, it just provides some margin of error. There are, however, other pieces to this analysis. Specifically, you can have a party member forage for food while you travel, you might have a ranger whose favored terrain is the desert in the party foraging for you, and you might have more than one outlander. It's when you start stacking these elements that survival becomes likely. The detailed analysis is in the image below, but the conclusions are as follows: > If you are in a party where nobody is proficient in the survival skill, you have no ranger who knows the desert, and don't have an outlander in the group, you are mechanically incapable of traversing the wasteland. You will die of thirst, and there's nothing you can do about it. This is the default state of the peasantry of Athas, who remain in the despotic regimes of the city-states because there is literally no other option. This seems consistent with the setting. > If a creature is proficient in the survival skill, it is still mechanically guaranteed to be unable to survive the wasteland by foraging at level 1. It will on average only be able to find 1.95 gallons of water per day, and will require 2 gallons of water per day. It might take a while, but it will, with certainty, die of thirst. With a few bad rolls it might die within two days, and with a number of good ones it might take a week or two, but the end result is the same. As a result, even if everyone in Athas was proficient in survival, they would still all die if they travelled too far away from a known water source. This also still appears consistent with the setting. > If a ranger whose favored terrain is the desert and who is proficient in the survival skill forages for food, it will almost certainly be able to sustain itself if travelling alone. The ranger will be able to generate approximately 5.20 gallons of water per day on average, which is enough for itself and one-and-a-half other creatures, give or take a bit. However, this is still not enough to sustain an entire party, and there is also the risk of the ranger dying while travelling alone if he suffers a streak of bad rolls, since his result is by no means guaranteed to succeed on any given day, because foraging is an all or nothing roll. This seems to be consistent with the setting, because you want to bring an expert when venturing into dangerous terrain to help you survive. He probably can, but still might fail. > If an outlander is foraging in an area where water exists, the minimum water he generates each day increases from nil to six gallons. This is enough to sustain three people, and if he is proficient in survival this increases, on average, to be enough to just barely less than is required to sustain four people. This also seems setting-consistent, because otherwise you would never have nomadic elven tribes. They probably all have the outlander background, which is what allows the tribes to survive. > The ideal scenario, where you basically have Bear Grylls with you, is that you have someone in the party who is proficient in the survival skill, has the desert as a favored terrain, and also has the outlander background. This results in a minimum water generation of 12 gallons per day, plus a survival roll that will generate an average of 5.20 additional gallons per day. This is enough to reliably sustain eight people, with enough left over to almost sustain a ninth. However, the player has at this point sacrificed a class feature, plus a level in a class, plus a skill proficiency, plus a background perk in order to be able to survive in the desert. Additiionally, the background perk still doesn't work in dead zones within the desert, putting them back to being at-risk in those areas.  Look Around You posted:Regarding food and water spells and abilities... I personally think they're are ok for the setting but need to be tweaked to make them a lot less spamable. The one way to do it is you could just bumped up a level or two like you suggested, but I'm not sure I like that too much since it doesn't give you an "emergency option" at low levels. The other thing I think would work is halving the effectiveness of survival and making spell effectiveness scale with spell slot, e.g. 1st level slot gives enough for 2 people, 2nd gives enough for 4, 3rd gives enough for 6 (or even just halved 3/1st 6/2nd). I kind of prefer this approach because using a spell slot is definitely a large penalty in and of itself (especially at early levels, where realistically more of the environmental trouble will be), and it gives you somewhat of an emergency out, at a pretty big cost (especially if the effectiveness is halved, and again), since even at higher levels you'll still probably feel the 2nd or 3rd level slot you'll be using to make food/water, and even missing 3 level 1 slots is losing a spells you can fling around. I know the setting is supposed to be really dangerous, but I personally think giving up essentially giving up multiple level 1 slots or 1 lvl 1 and 1 lvl 2 slot or a level 3 slot to give a party of 6 water or food in case of emergency is fair, and it puts a pretty significant dent into combat effectiveness, just in case you aren't able to keep supplied. > As noted above, the effectiveness of survival is already halved due to extreme heat. You already need twice as much water as you initially did. > I think it is important to note that goodberry only provides nourishment (i.e., food), not water. The spell probably isn't an issue for survival of the group because food was never going to be the problem. > The setting also takes into account the goodberry problem, in that druids (the only class that can cast the spell) were subject to a massive purge by the sorcerer-kings a long while ago. If there were thousands of druids, everyone would eat well on the planet. However, when you only have a few dozen, or perhaps a few hundred scattered across the planet, that isn't enough to sustain a civilization. It is, of course, enough to provide for a party of adventurers, though. It depends on if you're looking at it from a setting perspective or a party perspective though. > Create water is codified into the setting as only being accessible to water elemental clerics (who are begrudgingly tolerated due to being necessary to live, and are also the least numerous of the elemental variants due to water elementals being a waning power on Athas) and druids (who don't exist in any appreciable number). The whole balance of power of the setting would shift if all clerics could create water, because there are literally thousands of the other elemental clerics and they would be forced to do nothing but this if they all could do so. > There is a risk of crippling some of these spells to the point of them being worthless if they are tweaked. Create food and water is a third-level slot, which is a significant amount of power relative to the setting as far as divine casting is concerned. If it only created three pounds of food and three gallons of water, nobody would ever cast it for any reason. Similarly, create water is already restricted by virtue of who can cast it, to the point where it basically doesn't exist, unless the party goes out of its way to have that ability. --- This discussion is interesting in that we all seem to want survival in the wilderness to be a part of the game (which I love from a detail-oriented gaming perspective). However I think the setting and the mechanics of 5E, as-is, already address this to a fair degree. Based on how it is set up, the party at a minimum needs to have either a desert ranger, a water cleric, or a druid in order to be mechanically able to leave a city-state without a thousand pounds of water. This is a huge departure from stock 5E, where people roll up whatever they want and a party of a fighter, a monk, a bard and a wizard might exist. In Athas, if you attempt to roll that party, you're screwed. It also creates an insane amount of tension while traveling the wilderness, because if you've placed your bets on one player to keep you alive (a single desert ranger, or a single water cleric), and they die in combat two weeks away from a city-state or any other known source of water, you are loving screwed. On the other side of it, if your party happens to contain a druid, a water cleric, and a desert ranger, well ...you're almost certainly going to be fine, I agree. But ...shouldn't you be? You've got a huge array of expertise specifically dedicated towards surviving the wilderness, and it comes at the cost of the damage-dealing and game-changing power that a wizard brings to the table, or the chaos that a warlock or sorcerer is able to achieve when played effectively. It is extremely telling that nobody has applied a sorcerer, wizard or warlock to this game, and that might be a contributing reason as to why. Anyway, those are just some thoughts on the subject to think about. Waador fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 16:37
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That all assumes you only get to forage once per day, but that's not how it works. The DM calls for survival checks to forage at their discretion. In the fiction, a traveling party makes regular stops, because they're going at a normal or slow pace, not rushing, then they play the fishing minigame or whatever because they found a "good spot." If they roll well, they foraged 1d6+wis pounds of fish and clean water. If there's no "good spots" then even if the party has one or more foragers, they never get called to make the check. Likewise, if the party has people without darkvision and they pass a "good spot" in the middle of the night, those ones either can't roll or if no one has darkvision maybe no one even gets told about it. It's the same with the Navigation check to avoid getting lost, or Perception checks to see features or monsters or whatnot, the DM decides when and whether to call for them--they could run into many features or monsters or twisty areas or none. If there were no "good spots" that day, the Outlander perk doesn't do anything. If there's at least one, you just break even that day with the Outlander, which is why it's worth having people try to forage up a bank. Also the Outlander perk doesn't refer to a "default state," that's nonsense. Thinking outside of the rules for a second, to the fiction and it's pretty obvious to me how and why the perk works. Outlanders take what they and their buds need to survive, no more, no less. If people are doing the powergamer "go half ration for 2(3+con) days before eating a full one" strategy, the Outlander doesn't find them a full ration's worth until they are about to take the hit and decide, why yes I'd like to actually eat today. I think it's fine to just go with the normal rules, because foraging is likely to just be really really really really ridiculously hard in this setting. Few "nodes" and high DCs. Outlander perk going off will probably be a luxury, not an expectation, just like all the other perks. I did think of a change to Goodberry though to account for the changes from 2e to 5e. How about Goodberry heals HP/berry as normal if the creature has filled their stomach that day, and otherwise if they eat all 10 they are full for the day, no healing. That makes it a bit more like 2e, where it made fewer berries even as a higher level spell, and only counted as food when you were at full hp. Since HD healing is around in 5e and it's easier to be full health all the time, and the half ration powergamer nonsense I referenced above, and Goodberry is now only a 1st level spell, I just flipped stuff around a little. Create Water and such yeah should just be the domain of the Water elemental clerics unless we go on quests or heists or whatever to change that. In the end, I'd like to know if it'd be possible to change backgrounds after picks? It doesn't make much sense to have multiple Outlanders, and I get the feeling someone's going to want to take it.
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Mar 14, 2016 17:57
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Yeah that's true, I did miss the text on it being DM discretion for foraging in the DMG. I suppose it's conceivable you might hit a good spot where there's multiple nodes per day but in Athas I would agree that one per day is probably the best you could hope to encounter. The other problem with foraging is that you can't really afford to have everyone rolling under normal circumstances. At a minimum you probably want your allocations to include: > Watching for Danger > To allow passive perception to detect threats. > Navigate > To avoid getting lost. > Forage > To not die of starvation or thirst. This further edges the math in favour of the party needing to have a desert ranger, though, since natural explorer allows the ranger to play three jobs at once. Between not being slowed down by difficult terrain (doubling your movement speed, and halving the time you need to spend in the desert), making it mechanically impossible to get lost unless influenced by magic (eliminating the need for one person to navigate, and opening up a foraging slot), and allowing the ranger to simultaneously forage, navigate, and track, and also remain alert to danger (eliminating the need for one person to watch for danger, opening up another foraging slot). It'd essentially be a mandatory class if foraging is at DM discretion because you need to maximize the number of people who get to roll when a roll is possible. Waador fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 18:20
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I'm really not at all worried about food, the group can pretty functionally eat anything we kill and cannibalism is like a quaint tradition in the wastes I'm sure. The thing that's going to be a big issue is water; the penalties for failing to take in enough water in 5e are extremely harsh and will quickly lead to a death spiral if not dealt with. Day 1: Party of 6 requires 2 gallons of water today due to the heat, unfortunately the primary water gatherers fail their checks and the group only gets 1 gallon per person; everyone in the group has to make a dc15 con save and takes a level of exhaustion on the fail. Day 2 : Assuming the entire group failed their saves in the previous day, everyone is now at disadvantage on all ability checks. Today not enough water was found to even get half of what the group needed, and since everyone had a level of exhaustion already, the water mechanics dictate the group takes another 2 levels of exhaustion. Day 3: The group now has disadvantage on ability checks, has halved speed, and has disadvantage on all attack rolls and saving throws. We're truly blessed today! We found a half ration of water for everyone maybe we'll make our saves! Day 4: Nope, the group is now at exhaustion 5 and functionally dead, as our speed has been reduced to 0. We proceed to lay on the ground and bake to death in the sun as we roll over to exhaustion level 6. The only thing that could save the group at this point is either friendly nomads coming along and feeding and watering the group fully so they lose one level exhaustion over night, or a very generous cleric wandering up and spending a 100gp diamond and a 5th level spell slot to take one level of exhaustion off of one character who then has to go out and somehow successfully forage for the group whilst under a shitload of restrictions. Assuming the people of Athas have heat adapted(be that magic evolution or just only traveling at night), we could probably easily just use the basic one gallon of water per day rules for normal travel. If we're only consuming a single gallon per day of travel it's easy enough to just stop in at the local Immortan Joe Mountain Fountain and to shove the peasantry to the side to get our barrels filled from on high. A couple of not-donkeys can pretty easily haul enough water for a group of 4-5 people, and presumably when we find people in the wastes and inevitably kill them we'll be able to replenish our supplies off of what they were carrying. As much as I love resource management, 5e isn't particularly good for a simulationist game, I'd rather not get bogged down in resource mechanics and die on page 3 like "The group then dehydrated and passed away before intersecting with the plot  ." If we can figure out a way, before the game starts, to supply ourselves within the mechanics? All the better. I'd rather play 5e Mad Max than Resource Simulator 2016. I don't have a problem with the occasional brush up against the system when tragedy strikes and some sand beast destroys our cart or something, but the constant peril of "You're going to die in two days because water is actually so mechanically hard for you to get that it's unreasonable" would wear thin pretty quickly.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:17
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As with people who live in real-life deserts I would expect that our 'heat adaptation' approach is probably going to be travelling at night, yeah. This gets us out of being under the sun during the day (which is probably where 'extreme heat' comes into play), and gets us back into travelling in normal heat at night, reducing consumption to one gallon of water per day. That might be a DM call but not sure there's any other way to reduce the water consumption day to day.
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Mar 14, 2016 19:35
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Yeah I think I'd rather spend more effort on the plot/D&D:MadMax than on Fallout: New Vegas Hardcore/Fantasy Water Simulator. Like I think it should be a thing but I'm not sure it should be A Thing, if that makes sense. Like resource management should be a thing to be concerned about, but I'm not sure it'd be fun to have literal life or death rolls every day at the risk of a party wipe on the road. That being said, I totally wouldn't mind switching to a Water Cleric (using the Tempest domain), especially because I was torn between Tempest and Light to begin with. Also, just putting it out there (partly for the DM and partly in general) that I don't think there's a pure arcane/"psionic" caster applied yet, and if none apply I would be ok switching from a cleric to a caster if necessary (though I think i'd prefer a cleric) e: Maybe having enough food/water to survive but maybe not enough to avoid hunger/thirst penalties if you don't find stuff would be a bit better if we do want to make it a mechanically important thing? I'd just prefer to not wipe walking through the desert between adventures Look Around You fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 14, 2016 |
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Mar 14, 2016 20:50
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You can always just buy a bunch of provisions, too. That's basically all this is an exercise in, to what lengths we're willing to go to avoid buying water in the desert game. I like the idea of being a ranger who gives no shits and extorts you all elf-style. Supply and demand.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:30
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slydingdoor posted:You can always just buy a bunch of provisions, too. That's basically all this is an exercise in, to what lengths we're willing to go to avoid buying water in the desert game. I like the idea of being a ranger who gives no shits and extorts you all elf-style. Supply and demand. Well I know which extortionist I'll be eating first when my supplies run out .I loaded up on enough food and water to go 30 days on full rations or 40 if I go half rations a few times. It's relatively painless for a class that starts with as much cash as I did, but that's not the case for every class. Look Around You posted:Also, just putting it out there (partly for the DM and partly in general) that I don't think there's a pure arcane/"psionic" caster applied yet, and if none apply I would be ok switching from a cleric to a caster if necessary (though I think i'd prefer a cleric) Tara is fully an arcane character past level 1, I'll be going Fighter 1->Warlock 4->Wizard2->Warlock going forward. I'll be able to do some of the basic day to day rituals eventually.
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Mar 15, 2016 00:50
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slydingdoor posted:You can always just buy a bunch of provisions, too. Water costs 2 bits per gallon in Athas, according to the Campaign Setting book, which is the equivalent of 2 silver pieces. As a result anyone taking the 5gp background is able to afford 25 gallons of water, which is enough to keep them alive an additional twelve days. That's probably enough, but it also spends all of their starting gold on water before they even begin to think about food, or even a barrel or jug to store their water in. This is admittedly less traumatizing for anyone who takes the 15gp or 25gp starting packages. The counterargument is that most people are taking the maximum starting gold option, rather than any of their starting packages, which is fair. However this is actually worse for some people. It works out reasonably well for a ranger, or a fighter, or a cleric, who have starting wealth of 200 gold pieces. However, a monk has a starting gold of twenty gold pieces. He needs to spend, at a minimum, about 5gp on 25 gallons of water (to drink for twelve days), another 6gp on rations (to eat for twelve days), 2gp on a backpack (to carry his rations), 2gp on a barrel (to store his water), and 2gp on clothing (to not be naked). This leaves him a grand total of 3gp with which to purchase weapons and other equipment of interest. Ultimately either path is an interesting experiment in the psychology of poverty. Waador fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 01:03
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Eh, if money's that much of an issue for a character pretty much every background gets you the ability to secure some charity water. Worst case they could just start with a debt to someone, PC or NPC.
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Mar 15, 2016 01:23
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Waador posted:Ultimately either path is an interesting experiment in the psychology of poverty. As an aside this is a sentence I never thought I'd read in the context of a discussion about Dungeons and Dragons.
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Mar 15, 2016 04:05
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Well hello there thread. Sorry I disappeared for a while, I sort of fell into a black hole called The Division for a couple days  I'm pretty impressed you guys went into such depth about resource management, but frankly I'm more concerned about telling a good story than worrying if our kung-fu crickets and sand elves have enough water. Food and water will be important, but I'm not going to make it into a numbers game and bog us down. A Darker Porpoise posted:If we can figure out a way, before the game starts, to supply ourselves within the mechanics? All the better. I'd rather play 5e Mad Max than Resource Simulator 2016. I don't have a problem with the occasional brush up against the system when tragedy strikes and some sand beast destroys our cart or something, but the constant peril of "You're going to die in two days because water is actually so mechanically hard for you to get that it's unreasonable" would wear thin pretty quickly. This is essentially how I feel about it (especially 5e Mad Max  ). With the apps I've seen so far, I don't think it'd be a wildly unreasonable assumption that your PCs aren't idiots and have some ideas about how to fend for themselves. I will probably let you guys know if resources are wildly scarce in an area, or if some kind of horrible sand beast/dune raider/whatever horrible thing you pissed off by existing destroys your stuff (or some drat elf hoards them!).Regarding Wuxia Crickets: I'm sticking with slydingdoor's proposition earlier in the thread. Bug People apps are fair game now!
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Mar 15, 2016 05:05
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Oh yeah, posted this in the 5e thread a bit ago, but here's my spell reference if folks want it. e: Went back and edited in the googlesheet complete 1-20 rough plan I have for Tara if you wanna get a feel for how her build progresses. Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 06:12
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Just a friendly reminder to anyone who may have been lurking and on the hedge about submitting an app - NEW apps are closing TOMORROW, MARCH 16th at 11:59pm! You'll be able to edit and make tweaks until MARCH 18th!
Melchiresa fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 04:38
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Melchiresa posted:Just a friendly reminder to anyone who may have been lurking and on the hedge about submitting an app - NEW apps are closing TOMORROW, MARCH 16th at 11:59pm! You'll be able to edit and make tweaks until MARCH 18th! Are you planning to make player picks at midnight tonight? I expect some of the tweaks between now and Friday will end up being backgrounds and feats to avoid overlap or drop in Healer if the party composition seems to require it, but that data point as to the composition is needed first.
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Mar 16, 2016 19:08
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Waador posted:Are you planning to make player picks at midnight tonight? I expect some of the tweaks between now and Friday will end up being backgrounds and feats to avoid overlap or drop in Healer if the party composition seems to require it, but that data point as to the composition is needed first. I had intended to, until I woke up really sick today! I'll be announcing tomorrow, when hopefully I've shaken off whatever it is I have right now. I'll push back the tweak day until the 19th as a result.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:54
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Hey guys, sorry for the delay! I just wanted to make a quick post for my picks. So, without further ado: Look Around You, Waador, A Darker Porpoise, slydingdoor, TychoBrahesNose and PurplieNurplie - welcome to the adventure!  Ryuujin, sorry  However, you are welcome to remain on the bench in the event someone drops out. Totally up to you, though!I'm hoping to have the game thread posted either Sunday or Monday. I'll let everyone know when it's up! I'll be in touch tomorrow with people who had character questions. Whatever bug got me sick seems to have passed, so I will be good to go.
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Mar 18, 2016 06:32
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 Tara is confirmed ready to go, I don't need to make any adjustments to her with this party composition. e: Lied a little and tweaked my skills around a titch so we have a wider skill range. My character might be functionally mute, but she's the only sociable person in the party .
Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Mar 18, 2016 |
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Mar 18, 2016 06:39
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Melchiresa posted:Hey guys, sorry for the delay! I just wanted to make a quick post for my picks. So, without further ado: For those playing at home we have: LG > Cleric (Fire) [War Caster + Elemental Adept] NG > Cleric (Earth) [Feat Undecided, between Healer / Athlete / Resilient / Mobile] TN > Druid [Sentinel] TN > Ranger [Athlete] TN > Monk [Athlete] Mad Max > Fighter [HAM + Mounted Combatant] I will put together a party sheet over the weekend to more reliably assess our strengths and weaknesses as a team. As a first impression I like the comedy of possibly a full half of our party being Olympic-level athletes. Would suggest anyone who wants to join #athas on synirc.net if collaboration among team members on IRC is an interest you have.
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Mar 18, 2016 06:51
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The way you phrase that part about getting on IRC makes it sound like there's not much choice in the matter good advice, all the same, though.
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Mar 18, 2016 16:21
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That is true.
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Mar 18, 2016 18:01
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I am sad I didn't get in but will bide my time in case anyone drops out down the road.
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Mar 19, 2016 02:07
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The party journal and general tracker is now available. I believe Obsidian needs to choose a feat, Ja'eel needs to choose a language, and I need to choose a background, but otherwise everything seems complete on the various sheets as far as skills and calculations go.
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Mar 19, 2016 03:41
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Oh I completely forgot about extra languages. Um... what do you guys think would be a good one to have that'd cover some bases? I'm tempted to just go elven since it'd fit a bit more RP wise (roving traders) and so that i"m not the only one that doesn't speak it. Any suggestions though? e: also what's the online IRC client called again? I haven't used IRC in a long time and forgot it
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Mar 19, 2016 06:29
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Look Around You posted:Oh I completely forgot about extra languages. Um... what do you guys think would be a good one to have that'd cover some bases? I'm tempted to just go elven since it'd fit a bit more RP wise (roving traders) and so that i"m not the only one that doesn't speak it. Any suggestions though? If that doesn't appeal, and you want to round out our edges rather than join Team Elven - aarakocran, giant, gith, or kreen would all be perfectly setting-appropriate choices, as far as I understand. As far as how well you (or any of us) would be able to make nice with any of those options, being some of the most xenophobic and hostile races in Athas, though, is anyone's guess. Roleplay-wise I would agree that elven probably makes more sense, but maybe part of the reason your tribe survived is because you were able to broker a tentative peace with the local [bird men / giants / gith / hive] when others were not? edit: also I use pidgin for IRC though there are plenty of good applications.
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Mar 19, 2016 06:39
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Waador posted:If we're on a quest to revive and/or help prop up a god, having someone who speaks celestial might be wise. I feel like sly might have already thought about that what with knowing abyssal, but I'd probably prefer to revive a good deity if we have a choice. Celestial does sound like an interesting choice, though I'm not sure how I'd justify it. Kreen actually probably would be the best bet due to Ja'eel being from the Western Hinterlands, which has essentially a Thri-Kreen empire in part of it, so I think I'll go with that. e: oh and I have 10gp starting, from my Outlander background (I just took the standard cleric kit and swapped out the mace for a spear)
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Mar 19, 2016 07:06
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Don't think you can start with Celestial, gotta learn it from a class feature or pay someone 300gp and train for a year or whatnot. I got Abyssal from Favored Enemy (monstrosities) because a couple of them speak/understand it. I don't think any of them speak Celestial. To get Celestial I'd have to have favored enemy angels or something. You'd think it make more sense for me to have Celestial if I hunt evil things, in the same way that elven tribes learn their fellow hunters' language rather than the language of their rivals but whatever.
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Mar 19, 2016 07:31
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slydingdoor posted:Don't think you can start with Celestial, gotta learn it from a class feature or pay someone 300gp and train for a year or whatnot. I got Abyssal from Favored Enemy (monstrosities) because a couple of them speak/understand it. I don't think any of them speak Celestial. To get Celestial I'd have to have favored enemy angels or something. Yeah, I wasn't quite sure there either. Kreen is good though, and it fits in. As an aside, since i haven't seen it yet, where is the 5e conversion that was mentioned earlier by TychoBrahesNose? I'd definitely be interested in flipping through it. Also, Melchiresa, are you going to use the conversion, or are you just going to use mostly standard 5e rules with some tweaks (e.g. for earth domain and maybe the changed spells above)? Look Around You fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Mar 19, 2016 |
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Mar 19, 2016 08:22
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