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TooMuchAbstraction posted:On the (unlikely, but not impossible) off-chance that someone asks me what my rate would be to do contract work, I'd like to have a number handy to throw around. What's tripping me up, I think, is not having a good feel for what the contracting overhead is (e.g. paying both sides' share of stuff like healthcare and payroll taxes). I know the rule of thumb is to take your salary and double it, but does that still hold in the upper echelons? For reference, I was L5 on the Google ladder, and I'm confident I could have handled L6 if there were opportunities available. I would probably be asking for at least $300/hour and probably up to $400/hour. You need to price in your PTO, don't short change yourself. I mean we pay our consultants $180/hour for engineers with 5 years experience. I am guessing you are worth way more than that. TheSpartacus posted:It doesn't help the recruiter is from out of state. I just gently reminded them that to be able to answer their question fully, I needed to be informed of their expected pay range. I never thought of that. Too funny.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:40
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TheSpartacus posted:It doesn't help the recruiter is from out of state. I just gently reminded them that to be able to answer their question fully, I needed to be informed of their expected pay range. Can they get around it by asking what you want for compensation, rather than what you were making?
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Feb 23, 2021 16:41
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Zarin posted:Can they get around it by asking what you want for compensation, rather than what you were making? No, the law says: Each job-vacancy posting will have to disclose the hourly wage or salary, or the hourly wage or salary range, along with a general description of all benefits and other compensation offered. I just looked at our CO postings and we have the pay band and a link to benefits on the bottom of each.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:45
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The recruiter told me the job is paying $57k to $60k. I replied and told them their half of the industry rate for someone like me. Thats why these sorts of laws matter. Companies don't want you to know whose paying way below rate, this kind of information is a powerful cudgel in the hands of job seekers.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:58
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spwrozek posted:I would probably be asking for at least $300/hour and probably up to $400/hour. You need to price in your PTO, don't short change yourself. I mean we pay our consultants $180/hour for engineers with 5 years experience. I am guessing you are worth way more than that. And this kind of feedback is why I posted! Thank you, that context is invaluable. And yeah, I have over 15 years' experience and a frankly silly amount of breadth in terms of the subjects I can cover (largely courtesy of spending some time in academia). I'm a little unclear on what you mean by "don't shortchange yourself" though. If I target an annual "salary" based on working 4 days per week instead of 5, aren't I pricing in the extra day off in my rate?
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Feb 23, 2021 17:17
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TheSpartacus posted:The recruiter told me the job is paying $57k to $60k. I replied and told them their half of the industry rate for someone like me. Thats why these sorts of laws matter. Great outcome since you no longer have to waste your time. interesting that the range is so far off since you said you were interested in the job (based on the role description on the posting I am guessing).
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Feb 23, 2021 17:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:And this kind of feedback is why I posted! Thank you, that context is invaluable. And yeah, I have over 15 years' experience and a frankly silly amount of breadth in terms of the subjects I can cover (largely courtesy of spending some time in academia). I went back and looked at your math and I get what you are doing now. If you were taking a salary job you are looking for $180/hr. I see how you baked that in. So if you are coming up with $180/hr as a W2 then you need to be somewhere 2-3X that for a contract role. That is ultimately up to you but probably between $350-500/hr. Since you are a sole person you can probably be on the lower range (assuming less overheads vs a large consulting firms). E: Unless you are actually good with a W2 salary of about $150K, then your $180/hour is fine. I am not familiar with the Google ladders but I am guessing a L5 is paid way more than $150K. spwrozek fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Feb 23, 2021 |
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Feb 23, 2021 17:23
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spwrozek posted:Great outcome since you no longer have to waste your time. interesting that the range is so far off since you said you were interested in the job (based on the role description on the posting I am guessing). Its probably just the general bullshit of posting a job that will interest someone with 10 years of experience but not actually realizing what you want vs what you need. I kind of suspect the recruiter made up a value though.
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Feb 23, 2021 17:27
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:And this kind of feedback is why I posted! Thank you, that context is invaluable. And yeah, I have over 15 years' experience and a frankly silly amount of breadth in terms of the subjects I can cover (largely courtesy of spending some time in academia). You, much like anyone else who is considering going independent, are ignoring quite a few costs. 1) You are assuming you can be billable 8 hours a day 4 days a week, which you can't unless you're on a long term contract. Dunno what your customer acquisition strategy is and all of that but for me, my target business development time is about 20-25% which is a fancy way of saying looking for work for the firm to do. That might be high depending on your plans, but it is probably reasonable. 2) You have nonbillable work. You can't invoice a client for time spent processing invoices, doing your taxes, booking your flights, buying a new computer, setting it up, etc. 3) You have expenses. You will need an accountant and a tax man. You will need a lawyer. You need to pay these people out of your profits. I'm not sure what your skills and expertise are, but for maybe some frame of reference we bill our entry-level consulting strategy associates at $300/hr and when we benchmark our rates we are on the low side.
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Feb 23, 2021 17:27
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Great, thanks y'all! I appreciate the insights and advice. 
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Feb 23, 2021 19:10
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spwrozek posted:No, the law says: drat, that owns. While I don't have quite that much information where I'm at, my Fortune 100 company (probably) pays some consulting firm an absurd amount of money to benchmark against their peers to make sure they're not paying us too much or too little. I can see what my internal salary band is, so I have a decent idea of what to expect for similar work at basically any other Fortune 100 company. While it's still less information than I'd like going into a negotiation, it has helped.
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Feb 23, 2021 20:20
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The colorado equal work for equal pay act is actaully a little more comprehensive than that. it owns. It also requires any colorado employer to advertise promotions to existing employees and allow them to apply, including notifiying them of job postings and suchlike It also straight up forbids a company asking a hire for wage data to determine pay. Like, they aren't able to ask. The biggest thing it does is puts the burden of keeping records of job duties and wage rates for 2 years after employment on the company, and assumes that if they don't, the employee with the complaint is right. It owns. Would definitely recommend colorado goons look up the EWEPA act details/explanations.
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Feb 23, 2021 20:52
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TheParadigm posted:The colorado equal work for equal pay act is actaully a little more comprehensive than that. it owns. It also requires any colorado employer to advertise promotions to existing employees and allow them to apply, including notifiying them of job postings and suchlike This one: It also requires any colorado employer to advertise promotions to existing employees and allow them to apply, including notifiying them of job postings and suchlike is really annoying because part of the interpretation we are getting is I can't just promote someone (say when they get there PE license) without posting the job. So if I don't have head count and post for the promotion and arguably get as good or better candidate what exactly do I do... This one: The biggest thing it does is puts the burden of keeping records of job duties and wage rates for 2 years after employment on the company, and assumes that if they don't, the employee with the complaint is right. seems like a nothing, what business does not keep wage and job records? maybe very very small businesses?
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Feb 23, 2021 20:59
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Yeah I get the intention behind the posting requirements, but in practice they create even more postings for jobs that aren't really open because the company already knows who they're going to hire/promote, which creates a lot of frustration for job seekers who think they're doing something wrong when in fact the company is just interviewing X number of candidates to satisfy requirements.
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Feb 23, 2021 21:02
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spwrozek posted:seems like a nothing, what business does not keep wage and job records? maybe very very small businesses? Small businesses are, by and large, administrative disasters and most of them should be out of business (and will be eventually). "Small business owner" is definitely a persona archetype that rages against any sort of rule or regulation, like the most basic of book keeping or following the most basic labor laws. I've known more than a few shitbag small business owners that started their own lovely companies because no one would hire them. You can imagine how well that goes.
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Feb 23, 2021 21:05
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Guinness posted:Small businesses are, by and large, administrative disasters and most of them should be out of business (and will be eventually) You are probably right. I go mostly off my girlfriends business (here in CO) I guess her paying for a bomb CPA and Lawyer has been money well spent.
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Feb 23, 2021 21:06
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Good God I wish I could see the internal salary band for my position.
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Feb 23, 2021 21:38
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From my understanding of the requirements of the Colorado act, promotions do not need to be posted externally, just at a minimum internally. It should not add more "fake" openings unless thats how companies choose to do it.
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Feb 23, 2021 21:42
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TheSpartacus posted:From my understanding of the requirements of the Colorado act, promotions do not need to be posted externally, just at a minimum internally. It should not add more "fake" openings unless thats how companies choose to do it. Well you see..... There be some CYA-ing going on until it gets tested. At least that is my read. Target Practice posted:Good God I wish I could see the internal salary band for my position. It really is nice. I can see every job description and pay band from director and below.
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Feb 23, 2021 22:09
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Counterpoint, I've worked with several small business owners who are solid people. I've worked with small business owners who are terrible people, too, but in my experience it's in pretty much the same proportion as big business executives (i.e. mostly assholes, a few solid people). Small business owners who inherited the business from its founder are the likeliest to be nightmares to work for or work with, due to terminal myopia; they were born on third base and think they hit a triple.
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Feb 23, 2021 22:59
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I've read the OP with great attention, and I greatly appreciate this information. I do, however, have a couple of questions. A lot of online job offers I've looked up have a questionnaire, and one of the one I'm applying to now asks me about my current salary/job position. This is explicitly the kind of thing I absolutely should not disclose to them, but I'm worried that if I ignore that question my application isn't even going to be considered. Having a good BATNA is an excellent principle, but until I can find a job, mine is always going to be "keep being a leech on my parents' back", which is kind of a depressing position to be in. Do you think I should avoid answering anyway?
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Feb 24, 2021 13:52
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paradoxGentleman posted:I've read the OP with great attention, and I greatly appreciate this information. I do, however, have a couple of questions. Common advice here is to fill in 0 or 1. If this results in not getting an interview, it's probably a lovely company to work for. They can still ask you in an in person interview (and you should still not disclose that information then either).
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Feb 24, 2021 14:08
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spwrozek posted:seems like a nothing, what business does not keep wage and job records? maybe very very small businesses?
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Feb 24, 2021 15:04
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Dik Hz posted:IANAL, but setting the standard to "if the company doesn't produce the records, they lose by default" seems like a huge deal. Especially when collecting wage and employment data can be extremely frustrating as a complainant. As a complainant, how would you gather enough data to compel the company to turn over the records that prove your case has merit? You could be right for sure. Kind of out of my experience at that point.
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Feb 24, 2021 17:22
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Dik Hz posted:IANAL, but setting the standard to "if the company doesn't produce the records, they lose by default" seems like a huge deal. Especially when collecting wage and employment data can be extremely frustrating as a complainant. As a complainant, how would you gather enough data to compel the company to turn over the records that prove your case has merit? As far as I read into it, the major potential issue for a business involves one where they didn't keep records and the only ones that exist are in the hands of the employee, but they aren't necessarily compelled to provide them (5th amendment?) I wish I could find the link i read that, its lost to history now. The other big one's fines for non compliance, as well as clear protections against workers discussing wages.
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Feb 24, 2021 17:24
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Busy Bee posted:I've been with this company for 1.5 years now and everything has been great so far. Getting rave reviews from my colleagues and all the stakeholders yet I just had my 2nd official Performance Review earlier this week and my manager pretty much threw me under the bus and gave me a lot of critical feedback that did not make sense. I was expecting a promotion and a raise but I will not be getting either. Not a Children posted:That's the kind of poo poo that makes me think that your old manager had some sort of incentive to find fault. I'd discuss it delicately with the new manager, but don't expect anything to come of it unless he's willing to go to bat for you to fight it. Dik Hz posted:It reads to me that the old manager is tanking Busy Bee's ratings because he's trying to get the people still on his team more money. He's sandbagging on the person no longer on the team so he can rank his current employees higher. I posted earlier this month regarding a situation I was in about my Performance Review session (I quoted my post above and the following responses). So Dik Hz's assumption was correct - I learned today that a colleague of mine that's still on his team was promoted based on the Performance Review session we had earlier this year. When I spoke with my former manager earlier this month after I had the review session and I expressed my grievances, he informed me that I would have had to be in the top 10% of talent to be promoted / receive a raise this time and no one on his team met these factors. But it's clear from the recent promotion announcement of my colleague, my former manager was just BS'ing. Safe to say I'm not happy - I feel underappreciated and undervalued. I've already updated my resume and I'm keeping an eye out on any interesting positions. Thanks again everyone for the input and advice from earlier.
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Feb 24, 2021 17:52
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah, it's what it is. "Sorry, I am very interested but this salary is not workable for me. I would need $(minimum acceptable plus 15%) to make this move, can you meet me on that?"
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Feb 24, 2021 21:26
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yeah fuckem
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Feb 24, 2021 21:30
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Thanks, I just did exactly this and they offered me $3k more, lmao, so I turned them down. Feels bad to have just given away my first opportunity in a year of applying to get out of my job, but I'm not taking a pay cut for it. Once you turn down one company, it becomes a lot easier to stick to your guns with future companies.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:40
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I have strong doubts I will be facing this combination of "place I don't really want to work that much" and "piss-poor salary" again. Like if I really wanted to work there, I might have taken it, honestly, but...I don't. Want to thank everyone in this thread and in the Resume / Interview thread again for helping me think this through and giving me excellent advice.
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Feb 24, 2021 21:44
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I left a job for a marginal lateral move and regretted it. Got lucky in that I recovered quickly via a much better opportunity but grass can often look much greener when you're tired and frustrated.
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Feb 24, 2021 23:09
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Thanks, I just did exactly this and they offered me $3k more, lmao, so I turned them down. Feels bad to have just given away my first opportunity in a year of applying to get out of my job, but I'm not taking a pay cut for it.
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Feb 24, 2021 23:40
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Lol they are now trying to offer me a higher level position with better pay. No idea if I'll take it but seriously, none of this would have happened without advice from this thread, you guys rule.
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Feb 25, 2021 18:31
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Lol they are now trying to offer me a higher level position with better pay. No idea if I'll take it but seriously, none of this would have happened without advice from this thread, you guys rule. Stack paper all day 
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Feb 25, 2021 19:03
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Sort of reminds me of a mini twitter drama I saw recently where a highly experienced woman in tech announced she was looking for a new job, and said something to the tune of "don't waste my time with less than 185k base minimum plus equity". A totally market rate expectation in a west coast tech hub. And the number of anonymous jagoffs coming out of the word work to tell her she's crazy and not worth that (knowing nothing about her) and that no one is worth that was horrible to see. I'm sure it's a mix of ignorance, jealousy, sexism, and all sorts of other factors but American society has been so poisoned that now the workers are actively trying to keep each other down rather than recognizing that "hey maybe I'm getting hosed here" and organizing against the capital class. Obviously twitter is a hellsite and the wrong forum for that sort of discussion, but yeesh am I glad to have this little corner of the internet. If that sort of mentality is all you've ever known and experienced, like so many people, I deeply understand why the thought of negotiating and standing up for your own worth feels so scary and unknown.
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Feb 25, 2021 19:11
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BonHair posted:Trip report: we talked for 1.5 hours about my current job, my previous job, the company, my role, all sorts of very interesting stuff, and honestly it's a really good fit, especially since he wanted me to be part time consultant, part time product owner. He was very into letting me have a family, and we spent some time discussing this company versus traditional consultant companies, where they value engine persons and regular working hours, 65% billable time and so on. Final update: I landed on 47.000 dkk per month all inclusive, which is slightly higher than the average for my educational background and year of graduation, which in turn is more than my messy career trajectory would imply. It was really helpful with you guys, and also having the union help me look up averages and look over the kinks in the contract. I maintained IP rights to stuff I do outside of work on that account. I got offered 45, pointed out that the average is 46 and asked if he considered me below average in a slightly joking way. This was apparently the right move and I got more than I expected or hoped for really. And this was after agreeing that I might not be working 100% the first month since I'm recovering from stress. All in all pretty good. Also, there was no mention of restricting me from seeking employment at a customer, except that I can't have a competing simultaneous job. So that's nice if it turns out I want to go back to the public sector. I gotta say that negotiating with a guy who's both the business owner, a future close colleague and my immediate superior has a weird power dynamic, because I also want to essentially be friends with him to some extent from here on out. BonHair fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 19:30
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BonHair posted:Final update: I landed on 47.000 dkk per month all inclusive, which is slightly higher than the average for my educational background and year of graduation, which in turn is more than my messy career trajectory would imply. It was really helpful with you guys, and also having the union help me look up averages and look over the kinks in the contract. I maintained IP rights to stuff I do outside of work on that account. I got offered 45, pointed out that the average is 46 and asked if he considered me below average in a slightly joking way. This was apparently the right move and I got more than I expected or hoped for really. And this was after agreeing that I might not be working 100% the first month since I'm recovering from stress. Congrats on your new job. Awesome to see that while you were ok with settling with (anything?) over 40k, you managed to get an offer 17.5% above your target. If you would've anchored on 40k (instead of naming a very high number when he pressed you for it), your offer would've likely been somewhere between 37.5-40k. And to top it off, it sounds like a nice company as well! I can see only wins here, well done.
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Feb 26, 2021 09:32
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Lol they are now trying to offer me a higher level position with better pay. No idea if I'll take it but seriously, none of this would have happened without advice from this thread, you guys rule. Don't forget, a higher position comes with higher expectations/responsibilities. So being underpaid (yet at still a higher salary!) for all of that is still being underpaid. It's a bit of a red flag for me when my company says, "oh sure, we can pay you that, we'll just promote you up." There's an implicit sort of reality there where, ya I'm getting paid more, but being asked more. And with a new title that conveniently still underpays me!
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Feb 27, 2021 06:09
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downout posted:Don't forget, a higher position comes with higher expectations/responsibilities. So being underpaid (yet at still a higher salary!) for all of that is still being underpaid. It's a bit of a red flag for me when my company says, "oh sure, we can pay you that, we'll just promote you up." There's an implicit sort of reality there where, ya I'm getting paid more, but being asked more. And with a new title that conveniently still underpays me! Also makes you wonder what vacancies they have, exactly, in whatever structure that they may or may not have.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:14
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I actually knew the higher position was already open but figured they had filled it. Still, I do have some concerns about my abilities for the job. It's a management position and I've never really done that at this level, but I guess I have to start somewhere.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:24
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