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Arquinsiel posted:If the dude interviewing you was in Ireland then the numbers are likely to be very wrong for a USA-based role. Ireland is depressingly expensive and not particularly well paid right now, so 65k euro might be reasonable for what you're being asked to do within Ireland where unless you're being sent to Donegal nothing is more than four hours drive away. Vision and dental are also dirt cheap in Ireland compared to the USA (dental in particular, I fly home rather than pay UK rates) so they might not realise that it actually matters a lot to you. I think the Irish guy was who he was waiting to hear from though I may be mistaken.
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Jan 23, 2023 04:45
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GWBBQ posted:Just copying and pasting from the chat thread, This is bottom tier startup-thats-6-months-from-death pay. IMO it's not worth accepting (having taken similar things very early in my career). If you need the money to eat then whatever, but don't stop looking for other work.
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Jan 23, 2023 16:10
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GWBBQ posted:Just copying and pasting from the chat thread, If you're working the same hours and have the exact same job for the 1099 period, then they're misclassifying you for that period and it's almost certainly illegal. Not to mention that the gross rate for the 1099 is going to work out to be like 50% less take-home pay for those three months because of the extra taxes you'll be paying that your employer would be covering if you were a W2 employee. Like others have said, if you desperately need the money, take it while looking for something else, but definitely hold onto that offer that explains the 1099 thing and report it to your state department of labor whenever you've left the job. If you don't take the job, then report it now. The actual punishment for this is relatively minimal- I think it's simply correcting the issue and putting everyone on a W2 that is misclassified, but at least it'll make them think twice before trying that poo poo again on someone else. m0therfux0r fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jan 23, 2023 |
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Jan 23, 2023 16:33
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Lockback posted:I think the Irish guy was who he was waiting to hear from though I may be mistaken.
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Jan 23, 2023 16:58
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The guy in Ireland was very straightforward with everything and their range is 65-90. I thought this first one was being shady with the 1099 thing, thanks to everyone for confirming it.
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Jan 23, 2023 19:18
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m0therfux0r posted:gross rate for the 1099 is going to work out to be like 50% less take-home pay for those three months because of the extra taxes you'll be paying that your employer would be covering if you were a W2 employee. Isn't it 7.65%? Like an actual contractor would need to charge more since they'll have overhead, but a misclassified wouldn't really. (Hopefully this is moot and you get a better offer and don't have to deal with the shady company)
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Jan 23, 2023 22:31
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Epitope posted:Isn't it 7.65%? Like an actual contractor would need to charge more since they'll have overhead, but a misclassified wouldn't really. Yeah, he's not right. Usually the 50% mark is to account for insurance (which it sounds like he is getting, for some reason) and 401k (which is not take home) and PTO, which he'd also be getting. Take home taxes would, quick math, be about $5k more per year for a 1099 (but you'd also get an additional deduction to counter some of that). But, as said, usually no 401k, and you won't have the same employee protections (for what thats worth), usually no unemployment (this can be a very big deal) etc. So straight take home is pretty close but long term the things you're giving up are painful. This is why people get stuck in these bad situations.
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Jan 23, 2023 23:08
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Ladders, lifts, and no workman's comp insurance are a dealbreaker (and would be even if I hadn't broken my right foot twice this year). Anyone want to call the over/under on how many seconds it will take for the offer to be withdrawn once I give them the choice of hiring me as a W2 employee or paying me prevailing wage with supplementary benefits as a contractor?
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Jan 24, 2023 00:44
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GWBBQ posted:Ladders, lifts, and no workman's comp insurance are a dealbreaker (and would be even if I hadn't broken my right foot twice this year). Anyone want to call the over/under on how many seconds it will take for the offer to be withdrawn once I give them the choice of hiring me as a W2 employee or paying me prevailing wage with supplementary benefits as a contractor? You won't even finish the sentence
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Jan 24, 2023 02:47
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I bet they won't withdraw it, they'll just ghost.
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Jan 24, 2023 02:50
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doublepost
GWBBQ fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 24, 2023 |
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Jan 24, 2023 15:15
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Arquinsiel posted:I bet they won't withdraw it, they'll just ghost. I woke up to a message from the guy in Ireland, the other company wants me to interview with their technical manager. I don't have the gut turning anxiety I had yesterday (not even exaggerating, I was in physical discomfort with nausea and chest pain, plus I was tense enough that I'm sore all over today). GWBBQ fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 24, 2023 |
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Jan 24, 2023 15:19
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Lockback posted:Yeah, he's not right. Usually the 50% mark is to account for insurance (which it sounds like he is getting, for some reason) and 401k (which is not take home) and PTO, which he'd also be getting. Take home taxes would, quick math, be about $5k more per year for a 1099 (but you'd also get an additional deduction to counter some of that). I was posting that fast at work and messed up- I just meant to say that the contract rate should be way more than the W2 rate, but for some reason but some random figure there and shouldn't have- chalk it up to lack of coffee yesterday morning I guess. Regardless, I entirely missed the part where he's getting insurance during the 1099 probationary period? That seems extra weird. It also seems like he bailed on that place anyway so I guess it doesn't matter now.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:40
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m0therfux0r posted:I entirely missed the part where he's getting insurance during the 1099 probationary period?  I think I figured out their deal as I can find no evidence of the company having any employees aside from management - I think they take jobs, hire people as contractors, and ditch them once the job is done and paid for.quote:It also seems like he bailed on that place anyway so I guess it doesn't matter now. Adhemar posted:If you touch computers well enough to know C++, I hope you know you can do much better than that offer.
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Jan 24, 2023 17:20
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GWBBQ posted:That would make for a very awkward situation considering we already agreed that I would start Thursday.
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Jan 24, 2023 19:17
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More updates, hold on to your butts! I talked to the guy again and here's the summary. -He confirmed that the business is licensed and bonded for all work done. He does not know if this extends to liability for contractors or if they're covered by workman's comp (so that's a no on all counts). -There is no contract involved in 1099 employment (I'm fascinated to hear how they explain hiring contractors without a contract). -Hiring people as W2 employees after 3 months is a verbal agreement, nothing is put in writing. -In the past "two or three years," all but one person who started as contractors were hired as full-time employees. -When I asked how many other people work there, he said that most work is subcontracted out. -When I pressed further, he admitted that he's offering me the job because [drumroll] aside from him and his co-founder/co-owner, they have one employee who "isn't going to last much longer." All that said, you're right; it's take it or leave it. I told him I would need to talk to my accountant and would let him know next week. I'm going to make a counteroffer with 3+1 options: -Hire me as a contractor, pay me my contracting rate. -Hire me as a full-time employee in the role of project manager and lead technician. -Without getting into details, my accountant isn't the only person I'm going to be talking with and I may be able to offer them a fair investment in exchange for making me an equal partner and running it like a competent person while they do ... well I'm not quite sure what they actually do. And the +1 m0therfux0r posted:definitely hold onto that offer that explains the 1099 thing and report it to your state department of labor whenever you've left the job. If you don't take the job, then report it now. The actual punishment for this is relatively minimal- I think it's simply correcting the issue and putting everyone on a W2 that is misclassified, but at least it'll make them think twice before trying that poo poo again on someone else.
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Jan 24, 2023 22:09
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GWBBQ posted:offer them a fair investment in exchange for making me an equal partner and running it like a competent person while they do ... well I'm not quite sure what they actually do. This rules
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Jan 24, 2023 22:17
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Hmm, your hiring practices are unethical at best and illegal at worst, and you seem to have little idea how to run your business. I would like to buy in!GWBBQ posted:If they won't put it in writing and it's a 15-minute drive to a state that only requires one-party consent for recording, establish proof that you're there, record conversations, and let the state DOL handle the rest and make everyone whole who they've hosed over. This probably won't work like you think it would. They'd be totally in the clear if they use ANY weesling at all "We said we'd like to hire him, but the economics didn't work out. We said we'd give him an offer, but the offer we could give him is a really low one" etc. You'd probably have to drive a civil case yourself as I don't think the DoL usually gets involved in situations like these (unlike wage theft or union violations) you aren't an employee so this is more in the realm of breech of contract, which means you are going to likely have to front a bunch of money, which is a problem because All you'd be entitled to is damages, which for a position like this probably wouldn't amount to much. You might spend $15k and 12 months to get 3 months of salary. It's unlikely to be worth much.
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Jan 24, 2023 22:49
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Epitope posted:This rules Lockback posted:Hmm, your hiring practices are unethical at best and illegal at worst, and you seem to have little idea how to run your business. I would like to buy in!
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Jan 24, 2023 23:47
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Epitope posted:This rules
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Jan 25, 2023 01:33
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Lockback posted:Hmm, your hiring practices are unethical at best and illegal at worst, and you seem to have little idea how to run your business. I would like to buy in!
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Jan 25, 2023 01:40
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I think it's a little cooler than that. "It seems I may be forced to sell my labor to your lovely company, that uses exploitative and illegal practices. But I have a better idea"
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Jan 25, 2023 02:00
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GWBBQ posted:If they won't put it in writing and it's a 15-minute drive to a state that only requires one-party consent for recording, establish proof that you're there, record conversations, and let the state DOL handle the rest and make everyone whole who they've hosed over. So while this wouldn't help YOU personally, you can report misclassification to the state labor department even just based on suspicion. If they're interested, they'll look into the business. I'd definitely go that route if I didn't take the job (I'd be wary of it if I took the job because I wouldn't want to risk a surprise firing), but then again I am a guy that gets notably furious when places violate what few labor laws we even have here in the US. gently caress em.
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Jan 25, 2023 15:48
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m0therfux0r posted:So while this wouldn't help YOU personally, you can report misclassification to the state labor department even just based on suspicion. If they're interested, they'll look into the business. And yes, I am still looking into subsidized business loans and venture capital investments that would let me invest in the company as a partner or buy it outright. It's a long shot like I said, but contracts, partnerships, and inventory/cash on hand could easily compensate everyone who they hosed over with far less than the value of cash on hand and accounts receivable.
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Jan 29, 2023 07:49
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Hello cool negotiation thread, I am a forum demon that has come to beg a moment of your negotiation brains. I preanchored with the recruiter because I'm an idiot and this is my first time ever really dealing with one and I was offered a job that I want at what I anchored at + 2k which is the very tip top of the range they advertise in their listing. However, there were 3 interviews, 1 of which was a "fit" meeting with who would be my boss's boss and I told him what I used to make (again, idiot) and he said, well, the job starts at $actualoffer but if you wanted to do $actualoffer + 5k, we could probably accommodate that. My speculation as to why is that I left my last gig because I went in undervalued, he liked me a lot (quite sure of this, said things like "best interview I'll have all day" etc) and would like me to stick around so hes getting ahead of that issue. I realize this seems like a slam dunk and I'm thinking that boss's boss might lose respect if I don't negotiate, but also its the top of the posted range and since it's such a sweet deal I'm worried about souring. Company is relatively large so I should be fine... right?
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Jan 29, 2023 08:54
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Is actualoffer +5k more than what you wanted? I’m a bit lost there. Definitely at least ask for actual offer +5k. Your future boss is telling you that the offer is too low, it probably doesn’t make a difference to him what his salary spend is, and he doesn’t want to lose someone good for a relatively minor salary difference. If it’s higher than what you preanchored on previously - “after further conversations about the nature of the role” etc Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 13:27
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Yeah, what does the market say? Is the offer competitive with the overall market?
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Jan 29, 2023 14:03
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Sounds like you are in a good position. Give yourself flexibility if they hold firm that you can still take it if you want without losing credibility. I.e, use wording like "after considering all aspects, i know i could sign today for x+5k. If there a way you can get there?" Only use that if you actually have already thought about it and don't need another night to sleep on it. The point is to keep truthful here, don't say stuff like "i can't sign unless you go up another 5k" if that's not totally true-- if they hold firm and you sign anyway that's an unforced error giving them info you're not credible. And it's easily avoided by just phrasing things differently.
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Jan 29, 2023 14:11
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Jordan7hm posted:Is actualoffer +5k more than what you wanted? I’m a bit lost there. It is more than I asked for, though I am very growth focused in general so I think it actually *would* keep me in the role for longer. What you and Jemand say makes sense and goes with the voice that drove me to post. As Jemand points out, I came here because I do want to work there and do not want to lose credibility. I do have another offer on the table for a bit more but it's not as good once I've considered things like growth potential, benefits, upsides etc. Dik Hz posted:Yeah, what does the market say? Is the offer competitive with the overall market? A quick look says that in the market they're based out of, its average, but since it's full remote I had anchored to what is average here. In my market, its above average significantly if I get the +5. However, my role has various experience level tiers (IT), and if I go with the middle experience level, it seems to be right on the nose average. Thank you all.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:34
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If they countered for more than you asked for I'd just take it. You showed your cards, but it's a good sign of a boss if he's doing that. It means he's trying to think of you in longer terms.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:39
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ASAPRockySituation posted:It is more than I asked for, though I am very growth focused in general so I think it actually *would* keep me in the role for longer. Sounds like you learned why you never name a number first unless you think you have an information advantage.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:53
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leper khan posted:Sounds like you learned why you never name a number first unless you think you have an information advantage. But don't get too down on yourself -- you got more than what you wanted and you learned a lesson for next time
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Jan 29, 2023 17:01
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Rule 1 is "never not negotiate" but Rule 2 is "know when you've won". If the boss's boss is telling you to email back with a "hey based on chats I require X+5k" then that sounds like you've won.
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Jan 29, 2023 17:55
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My previous company essentially closed their local division because of covid, and didn't yet have fully remote positions for their out-of-state office. Since then, I've been looking for a job for well over a year, and finances are getting extremely thin. Thankfully, I'm in what appear to be the late stages with 2 different jobs at the same large Company A, which works very very slowly from a hiring standpoint, and I'm hopefully finally approaching the offer stage. The wrench is that I noticed that my old employer was now offering a fully remote position that I'm qualified for, and I applied to that as well, and frankly, they seem thirsty as gently caress. It's a pretty small Company B and they seem ready to hire me back after only a few days since I initially contacted them again, where it's been a multi-month process for the other 2. I'm not really sure what my question is, I'm just looking for advice on generally navigating the prospect of trying to negotiate for these jobs and a higher salary while at the same time NEEDING one of these jobs. Like I literally can't afford to NOT get one of these jobs. Job 1: Company A. Highest Paying, Fully Remote with an on site probationary period with an annoyingly long train commute, job I'm least qualified for. Slowest hiring process, who knows when this offer is coming, if it is. Job 2: Company A. Slightly lower paying, Hybrid with an annoyingly long train commute with possibility of going full remote later, should be more on my level than Job 1. SEEMS like it's approaching an offer this week or next week max. Job 3: Company B. Lowest paying. Fully remote. Seems like they need someone now, could have an offer as soon as tomorrow. Now, since I had never read OP, I initially gave the recruiters a range, because it's literally one of the first things they asked and I didn't want them simply declining to pass on my resume when, again, I NEED a job. Here's the thing though, my wife actually works at Company A. It's a big company and I'd never be anywhere near her or have anything to do with what she does, but she has access (as do all employees) to their compensation guidelines. They have a pre-set range for all positions, low, mid and high. She says they never hire at the high end of the range, so you're mostly shooting for the middle point. Job 1's range is 69k-low 89k-mid. Job 2's range is 57k-low 73k-mid. Job 3 is "55k+". I believe I told the recruiter for jobs 1 and 2 my range was "around 70k," and the HR person for job 3 that I hadn't learned about the position yet but I was looking for other positions in the 60-70k range. This person also knows that my previous salary for the company was 52k in 2020, because she can look that up. No other money talk has taken place during any interviews or conversations with the actual teams. According to an inflation/buying power calculator I just found, anything less than 60k would basically be a pay cut from my old job. My other concern, besides money, is timing. Let's say Job 3 contacts me TOMORROW, and says "yes we want you, we'll pay this" or we negotiate or whatever. How do I tell them I'm waiting for other offers to come in. I mean, I know I probably just say "that's an interesting offer, I'd like to see what these other offers come in at." But then how long can I leave them hanging while I wait for what is hopefully coming from company A, but maybe isn't, or they just keep being slow as gently caress and I don't know when it's coming. How aggressive can I be with company A and say "hey company B wants me back, I'm gonna need to see some offers real soon?"
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Feb 7, 2023 00:23
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Usually the better way to play it is "Great, thanks. I have received multiple offers but I am excited about joining your team and would be willing to commit today for $X." If they say no then it's "ok, in that case I need a week (or whatever) to consider my options." But if Company A is so slow that it might be a month or more before you hear from them again, you have no choice but to accept or decline whatever Company C's offer maxes out at. They're not going to wait longer than a week for an answer, possibly not even that long.
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Feb 7, 2023 01:17
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E: wrong thread. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 07:42
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Eric the Mauve posted:Usually the better way to play it is "Great, thanks. I have received multiple offers but I am excited about joining your team and would be willing to commit today for $X." If they say no then it's "ok, in that case I need a week (or whatever) to consider my options." I've definitely stretched my answer for longer than a week before.
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Feb 8, 2023 14:41
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Suspecting I may be getting offered a new position in my company. I have no idea what the pay scale for the position is and we never talked about numbers. I know I am basically up a river but if I am not happy with the number is it worth mentioning what market scale currently is? Based on averages these kind of positions go from 105-125k, and I'm currently at 80k (minus bonus which is 5%). I would be fine with lower range since I don't have full experience with the platform, but a year in this role will set me up to make that or more down the road.
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Feb 8, 2023 22:26
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Internal promotions generally don't have a lot of (or any) room for negotiation. I know my corp limits it to a 10% increase in most cases. I wouldn't expect much wiggle room to be honest. It's dumb, and it leads to organizations spending a bunch of money training people and then watch them walk out the door to market rate jobs, but that's the way it is a lot of places.
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Feb 8, 2023 22:48
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skipdogg posted:Internal promotions generally don't have a lot of (or any) room for negotiation. I know my corp limits it to a 10% increase in most cases. I wouldn't expect much wiggle room to be honest. I’ve worked for this company for a few years now. My current role was a promotion to a new department and I went from 50k to 70k, so I don’t think they are limited. I don’t know that for sure though and I did whisper to my former manager that was shilling for me that I wouldn’t take it unless it was around there. When the vp offered me that I just immediately accepted since it was what I wanted.
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Feb 9, 2023 00:05
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