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fwiw it seems to be a growing trend in HR the past couple years to play hardball on making the applicant name a number first, and they're getting more willing to let an applicant walk if they refuse. I think going forward it's going to increasingly be the case that if you're not the super clear #1 candidate then HR won't be bluffing on this point and won't fold. Not relevant but what the hell, I'll tell a story: the last serious interview I personally had, for a job I didn't especially want but was kicking the tires on, I knew exactly what the job was worth on the market and went right ahead and asked for that number plus about 20 percent. They actually ended up offering me the job--at almost exactly half of what I'd asked for. I told them no thanks and we clearly have nothing further to discuss. (By that time I'd already pieced together from a few acquaintances on the inside that the company was looking for a very cheap and very temporary stopgap while preparing to eliminate that job. They ended up eliminating it ahead of schedule, apparently after offering it around at preposterously low salary and getting no takers. It is not a position a healthy company can live without. But then, this is not a healthy company.)
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Dec 14, 2017 03:45
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Jordan7hm posted:I think this is one where it depends on how much sway the business holds vs HR. HR often doesn't care if the business needs to make do with their current staffing levels for another 6 months to find a cheaper candidate who fits the job. HR isn't the group that's understaffed in this situation. Definitely true. The trend in forcing the applicant to name their number or let them walk is an HR trend all the way. Unfortunately, especially at large companies, HR seems to be gaining more power relative to hiring managers by the day.
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Dec 14, 2017 22:21
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LochNessMonster posted:Sounds like they’re happy to keep you on the books for your current pay and either don’t think you’ll leave or don’t care if you do. This is how most companies behave--especially the ones where the accountants or the HR people have significant control of staffing. That's why the most critical salary negotiation by far is the initial one, when you interview for a job. Most significant raises in 2017 happen when you jump to a new job with a different company, or a different department within a large company. Your chances of getting what you want pay-wise are better at the initial salary negotiation before taking the job, because it's painful to let a good candidate walk away. Creates more hassle for everyone, including HR. Whereas with already existing employees it's exactly like LochNessMonster says: giving you a nonstandard raise is a hassle for them, and they assume you're not really going to leave if they refuse (they assume this because the overwhelming majority of employees who are refused raises don't). And if you tell them "I want $X or I'm gone" they will usually push you out the door ASAP because that is not the kind of uppity attitude they want to risk you infecting other employees with. If they won't pay you what you're worth, the only good play is to go find someone else who will.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:40
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Am I the only one that if a prospective employer asked to see my W2 I would probably say "Thank you for your time but we have nothing further to discuss" and end the interview? If you're desperate then you take what you can get I guess but wow there is no way working for that company could end well.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:59
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The benefits and drawbacks of becoming an employee rather than a contractor vary wildly based on your jurisdiction and the specific company and job, so I can't help you there. I'll only say that all of this:CaptainPrivy posted:Doing so will involve some limits most likely on some of these benefits as switching to W2 will involve clocking in and out and being paid hourly more so than weekly I presume. I may lost those 8 extra days off a year. is negotiable.
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Jan 9, 2018 00:27
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Chaotic Flame posted:Jesus. I'm not sure if it's better to tell him so he can try to fix it later or just let him think he's doing fine. Too late to fix it now, only thing he can do is immediately start looking for a job somewhere else. Not like his new employer is going to give him a 50% pay increase if he comes back immediately and says "actually after accepting your offer I checked and it turns out I way underbid, 50% pay increase plz"
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Jan 10, 2018 01:43
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You really have to feel it out for yourself, but be warned that in many cases when you come to your employer with "I received an offer for $X from Acme Corp., will you match or should I tender my resignation?" the current employer will agree to match just to buy themselves time to quietly line up your replacement before firing you. Sometimes that's not the case but it's for you to decide what your risk of that is. Usually it's best to jump to the company that's already demonstrated they want you there.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:10
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I actually think it DOES hurt to ask in this case, at least in the way you framed it ("I'm going to be worth more in four months than I am now, so I want more now") because if the HR rep has any negotiating savvy whatsoever they'll instantly know you're bluffing because you're looking for a job now, not in four months. It just reveals that you don't know how to negotiate, and framing it that way also comes off as a thinly veiled threat to start looking elsewhere in four months, and that's nothing but bad for you. If you're satisfied with the offer, accept it. If you're not, say "I'm excited to join your team but I need $X more to close this deal." Just be aware you'll never get a significant raise from your starting salary so be sure you're really satisfied with it (i.e. accepting the offer is better than your BATNA) Didn't you mention this upcoming license in your interviews?
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Feb 7, 2018 21:53
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I mean I'm waiting to see what the hell is going on but after that voicemail 95% I'm done with company A. Dunno what industry this is but my spidey sense is tingling but the HR people at company A and company B know each other well. Also I recall that you wrote this yesterday: Macaroni Surprise posted:The interview process included a group interview with the entire team and apparently they have turned down around a good number of people before saying they want me to join their team. And it makes me think something weird is going on with that company. Might be a vicious power struggle upstairs ongoing as we speak, which would be something you 100% do not want to step into if you can help it. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 02:51
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The simplest explanation I can think of (and the simplest is usually the likeliest) is a manager (or HR person, if HR has hiring authority in this company) gave the green light to hire him, and after the offer went out some higher manager who has their own, probably nepotistic and/or sycophantic, candidate in mind overruled them.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:55
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The dangerous thing is, even if it ends up with them honoring the original offer, now you know that someone in the company--and someone with at least enough pull to be able to provoke that bullshit second call--doesn't want you there. I'd avoid that kind of situation if at all possible. Good chance the knife's in your back before you've even had time to survey the political situation.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:24
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Frankly at this point I would have no qualms about telling Company A the straight truth.
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Feb 10, 2018 16:53
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Nah, you didn't gently caress it up. Company B is probably going to hire someone else anyway so accept Company A's offer and keep looking for your next job, because I'd lay 5 to 1 that place is going to turn out to be a horror show to work at. And you never know, Company B might actually come back with an offer next week which you should not hesitate to accept. And if (gods forbid) Company A winds up pulling the offer, that would be a GOOD THING because if that were to actually happen then you will have dodged a huge bullet and remaining unemployed is preferable to working for them. e: On a theory/macro level, just as an aside, I talk to people all the time who freak out because it's been three days since their interview and they haven't heard anything yet. Good companies take their time hiring for any position above entry level, because it's REALLY important to do your diligence and make a good hire. In fact it's a bit of a red flag if I interview for a job and get an offer one or two days later, no matter how awesome an interview I was--it likely means the company's desperate to fill the position yesterday and is offering it to the first not-obviously-unqualified person they talk to. Good companies that are capable of thinking past ten minutes from now fire fast and hire slow. Unfortunately most companies suck, and most companies do just the opposite--fire slow, oh no we're understaffed!, hire fast. I'll hang up and listen Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 02:44
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18 Character Limit posted:Is there a conventional wisdom here for how to evasively answer application form questions that explicitly ask for your salary goal? I'm three for three for getting these even before a screening interview and I expect I will see a lot more of them. "Will Discuss." I think we're moving pretty rapidly toward a world where, short of executive level jobs, it becomes simply an out-and-out requirement everywhere to name your number before you'll even be interviewed. Most HR people (like most people in general) are lazy and it makes their job easier. Relevant: 
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Feb 12, 2018 19:02
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I feel bad for the shareholders of companies who insist on hiring such gullible idiots.
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Feb 12, 2018 19:30
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Nothing is ever universal, but if your current employer is a sizable corporation then accepting a matched/counter-offer from them rather than accept an offer from another company is very often a mistake--they're just buying time to replace you at their convenience rather than yours. The political atmosphere and management style at a startup can vary wildly from one founder/investor to the next. Sounds like you handled your own situation well (agree with Jeff you waited long enough though).
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Feb 14, 2018 21:31
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Macaroni Surprise posted:My understanding was that it was more HRs fault. He was blaming her for saying I seemed unenthusiastic about taking the job. Regardless of who is at fault, I'm just washing my hands of the situation and glad I avoided them. Honestly I think at that company it all started with you telling them you may have other offers, and "unenthusiastic" translates to "this guy knows he has options and explores them so he won't stay here long". Someone (probably HR) was trying to convince someone else (probably the hiring manager who is desperate to fill the position) that hiring you would be a mistake because you'd be gone to a better company inside of 6 months, and they're probably right.
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Feb 14, 2018 21:38
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Never ever ever ever weigh "potential future income" as a factor when making career decisions. It is, almost invariably, an empty promise made my management to avoid paying you now. They are lying.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:13
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Yeah, I should be more clear: don't ever depend on raises/promotions within the same company for "potential future income." In almost (almost!) all cases you advance faster in your field by jumping companies than by staying in one place and trying for internal promotion.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:38
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To the spot-on advice above this post I will add that if the company refuses to consider your application unless you name a desired salary, that's just fine--that means you don't want to work for that company.
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Feb 21, 2018 23:10
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So then--seeing as it's not verifiable, else an interviewer would just call your employer rather than try to weasel the information out of you--why not just lie about what you currently make?  (There's a correct practical [as opposed to moral] answer to this question, I think. I'm curious whether anyone else hits on it.)
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Feb 26, 2018 16:15
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There are exceptions to everything, but it's very likely that one way or another you'll be gone from that company within six months. That's just what happens when there are
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Mar 5, 2018 00:55
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You can ask. Yeah, if you ask for more and they pull the offer then you dodged a bullet; chances are about 98% that you'd swiftly regret working for that company if that's how they operate. If they offer something you're willing to accept and your BATNA sucks then it's better to just accept the offer for the exact reason you said: it won't help your prospects for success with the company if they start off knowing there's no teeth behind any request you make. Usually it's best to stick to asking for more only if your BATNA is good enough that you're genuinely willing to walk away if they don't improve their offer. That usually means one of two things: either 1. you have a comparable offer in hand or your current job isn't significantly worse than the offer; or 2. the offer is so weak that in the long run remaining unemployed or underemployed for now is no worse. (In this case though, this probably isn't a company you want to stay at for long even if they do improve their offer into an acceptable range.) Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 16:28
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Based on this:Vegetable posted:The company's HR is pretty unprofessional (wouldn't even send me a formal offer letter), but I'm keen to work with the hiring manager, who's really sharp and friendly and smart. I wouldn't want to work for that company, would counter way higher--at a number at which I'd be willing to move to a company whose HR has its head up its rear end, which inevitably is going to turn out to be a soul sucking place to work--and would not feel bad at all when they decline. IMO. Also consider that if your reads on HR and the manager are correct, chances are very strong the sharp and friendly and smart manager you'd be going to work for will be gone within a few months of your arrival. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 03:48
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There's probably no upside and a small but significant risk the HR person finds out you went around them and gets pissed off, IMO. It sounds like this is a company where HR is empowered.
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Mar 8, 2018 04:23
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Look for external offers now. The point isn't to use them as a gotcha or leverage with them, it's to figure out what you are actually worth and what's worth fighting for. There's no point in playing silly games that might get you a 20% raise if you can go out and double your salary instead. They're stalling you and taking advantage of your relative complacency, and it's working. 
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Mar 8, 2018 18:24
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^ Yes, exactly. Just also be very very wary of taking the other option C: c) They say no, you give two weeks' notice, they cave and give you the money you want and then you turn down the other offer. This usually--not always, but usually--ends up the same way as Dwight's option C, they're just buying time to arrange for a cheaper replacement. Once they say no it's usually better to just leave and take the other offer with a company that actually wants you at that price.
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Mar 8, 2018 19:18
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Don't blindly follow my advice, get advice from other, smarter people, but I would ask for like $47K plus moving expenses (that means cost of movers+transportation and first month's rent), and be willing to accept about $45K but no less. If you're moving to one of Texas' major cities then even $50K is going to be tough to live more than paycheck to paycheck on though, and I question the wisdom of moving 2,000 miles away unless the new job is a major step in the direction you want to go, career-wise. (Or unless you're not from Maine and don't really give a poo poo about moving away from there.) Have you scouted out what actual living expenses are in the area you'd be moving to and how they compare to where you currently live? Your BATNA is not having to go through the gigantic hassle of moving 2,000 miles away for what works out to a pittance of a raise (or even a pay cut in terms of salary versus COL) so saying "yeah I'm motivated to take this job but it's going to take a little bit more to be worth relocating for" is reasonable. But as with all human communication, it's all in the delivery. IMO.
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Mar 9, 2018 15:54
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Putting someone on a project wherein they aren't doing anything for months at a time and ignoring their requests for something to do is a pretty standard way megacorps let people know their services are no longer needed. Most likely they want you finding another job and the sooner the better. It's either that or it's just a fantastically hosed up organization, in which case you will want to find another job and the sooner the better.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:30
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Cacafuego posted:What is the reasoning behind that? Just letting the people stagnate until they get fed up and want to go elsewhere? Why give me a promotion and a raise then? The corporate world confuses me so much sometimes. Two reasons, one emotional and one practical: it feels good to make someone suffer, and if you resign they don't have to pay unemployment comp or a severance. One thing I learned very early in my life and have had reinforced consistently ever since is that sometimes you have no idea what intrigues and power struggles are going on in the executive suites or in what way you might be a pawn in them. But if you're an achiever then you're noticeable and that inevitably means you will become a pawn in their games, which means poo poo will happen to you seemingly at random and you won't understand why until long after the fact, if ever. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 20:49
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The corollary to that is that you should attempt to seek out awareness of such things so that you might sidestep landmines you'd otherwise never see coming. It pays to be a busybody to some extent. Big time. But especially earlier in your career, sometimes the intrigues are happening so far above your level that there's no way to get reliable information about them. You can get a general idea of who your friends and enemies are upstairs but the specifics of what's going on will be hard for you to come by. But being able to quickly discern which way the wind is blowing shortly after arriving with a new employer and aligning yourself accordingly is a real skill that's worth developing. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:02
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As always, the only reliable way to meaningfully increase your salary is to seek a new employer.
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Mar 14, 2018 16:29
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The funny thing is that after you finally leave, he'll pay more for your replacement than it would have taken to satisfy you.
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Mar 18, 2018 17:45
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My own two cents is you should pretty much always at least have your antennae up for a better job. Maybe not Always Be Job Hunting but definitely Always Be Networking, and if an opportunity to increase your salary and responsibility elsewhere comes up, absolutely take that interview even if you just started your current job last week. IMO. Plus interviewing is like any other skill--you'll gain both adeptness and comfort with it the more you exercise it. Zauper posted:I read a book recently about the concept of approaching work in 3 year phases. If you're only spending a year at a company, you're not going to be very effective. 3 years gives you the time to make a difference before moving on - to a new role or a new company. Thinking about it that way is good for both parties - you can think about your next professional goal (eg title, responsibility, etc) and set a plan to achieve it; and you're working there long enough to demonstrate success - good for both parties. I'm skeptical of such a rigid plan because life doesn't often cooperate with tidy plans. It might be a helpful way to structure your thoughts, as long as you also have flexibility and don't pass up good opportunities because they don't fit into your Plan. Also if I WAS going to do something like that I'd make it 2 years at a time, maybe 18 months. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 13:54
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Cacafuego posted:I’m assuming they know that people bounce around because they want more pay, but does it go without saying that when asked why you moved from company to company every three years, you shouldn’t tell a hiring manager it’s because the companies offered lovely pay increases each year? "I accomplished a lot there but I foresee a lot more challenge and opportunity for personal growth at your company," etc.
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Mar 19, 2018 19:16
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Yeah $100/hour is a lot to ask but I would definitely expect at least $50/hour based on what you've posted.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:14
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m0therfux0r posted:
Nope. Walk away. You do not want to work for that company. It won't be any better than your current situation and it may well be even worse.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:56
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m0therfux0r posted:I tried that too and it didn't work. I already have another opportunity that popped up like two hours after I posted that where I actually have two internal referrals, so I'll probably just go to the interview for this poo poo place as practice and then not accept their offer if I get one unless there is an *incredible* explanation as to why they were loving weirdos on the phone. You don't have to go to an interview to get an explanation for that. I'll give it to you for free: they're misers.
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Mar 28, 2018 00:43
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Never been to Houston but I've heard the traffic is really a horror show there. Think Chicago but with less in the way of public transport . If you're concerned about sterotypical Texas as Red Tribe Central, though, that doesn't apply in Houston which has become pretty metropolitan. (Again, Or So I've Heard from people who live there.)
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Apr 4, 2018 03:31
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The thing is, had you asked your former boss for the agreement in writing he would have said no. Or more fully, he would have said "I'd love to do that but HR won't let me." Which means no. Dwight is right. You can dress it up with whatever adjective you like; leverage is your BATNA versus theirs, that's all. One more thing to add to that: anytime you go to your boss and say "I want a raise/promotion" almost anyone will correctly perceive the implicit, unstated thread "...or I will find a different company to work for." So if they say no, that means they're fine with letting you walk and you should indeed be looking to secure a better job and walk ASAP. I've never once in my life heard of this conversation:  You and I both know we're underpaid, I'd like a significant raise right now please. Sorry but there's no budget for that, we'll talk about it at your next review, etc.be followed by this conversation: Hey, y'know what, I really want that raise or I'm going elsewhere. OK, let me see what I can do.and end in any way other than the eventual  . Sometimes sooner, sometimes a few months down the line after initially agreeing to your demands to buy time to line up your replacement. If you're underpaid but the company is actually interested in keeping you, then as soon as you make it known that you're aware you're underpaid, they will pay you. If you're underpaid and the company is only interested in filling your role as cheaply as possible, then as soon as you make it known that you're aware you're underpaid, they will immediately start preparing for your departure, stall until they're prepared, and then fire you when they're ready to, if you haven't left on your own by then. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 22:55
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