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Tots posted:If I say "I got an offer for 10k more 6 months ago" will anyone give a poo poo? Not in the way that you'd hope, because they'll basically roll their eyes and ask why you didn't take it. Further, that puts a target on your back, since you've indicated that you're a flight risk. You can seek offers anytime so long as they're still applicable at the time of negotiation, but you'll likely have a hard time getting offers if you tell the other companies that you wouldn't be able to give them an answer for another 6 months. Wait it out, start collecting offers as the review date gets close, see if you get the kind of review you want, and play your hand then.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:31
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"Feeling bad for the company" is not a reason to take a job, ever ever ever. They are a company. They are hiring you because they want to use you to make more money than they are paying you, not because you are *~so good for each other~* If I could go back and slap that into my 22-year-old self to save myself from the miserable hellpit that was my first employer, I'd do it in a heartbeat
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Oct 5, 2017 19:34
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I've been working with a recruiter who seems to have betrayed me -- she named a salary requirement to the potential employer without my say-so or input. Now, that number would actually be fine if I got it, but it sticks a dagger in my negotiating space. The manager I spoke to mentioned the number and I emphasized that I did not give her that number, and in fact would have named a higher number (did not specify a figure). Manager went on to say "Well, that'd be tough with your level of experience. We've had people with 25 years experience ask for [betrayal number - $5k]." I responded that I'm always up for a little horse trading and left it at that. So, the crucial part of my sitch -- I still haven't named a number for myself, and an offer is all but imminent 'cause they seemed to like me. They asked me to fill out their online application more or less as a formality. Salary requirement will be a part of that. Do I name a sky-high figure since my position has already been compromised, or put in a "nonsense" number like 0 and see what they do?
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Feb 1, 2019 15:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:while this is true i am assuming that the recruiter has lowballed the gently caress out of the guy, because, you know, they're a recruiter Nah, she actually named something close to my internal pie-in-the-sky, so while it was definitely aggravating, it didn't kneecap a potential negotiation. I just hate having a ceiling. At this point I'm just waiting on the imminent offer so negotiations can begin in earnest. Tim Thomas posted:In a couple months I will be transitioning to found a startup as I have enough seed money cobbled together to have about a year of runway. My present corp is not aware of this plan and will likely react emotionally when they find out. I’m a company officer and while I have no illusions about being indispensable, my leaving, along with the team I hired likely following me out the door, will hurt significantly. I am going to leave on the table about half of my options that haven’t vested, which I do not necessarily care about as I am not sure they will be worth anything based on how the company is managed. If you truly want to focus on your startup, go in with the mindset that you will be burning your bridges. Give 2 weeks as is the norm. If the opportunity presents itself, charge consulting rates to continue your work and consider it a windfall. As far as I'm aware it's impossible to do 2 full time jobs competently for any extended period of time, so don't bite off more than you can chew. Be polite and reasonably accommodating, but never forget that investors and their reps are vultures and will scorched earth you the moment you stop being useful. Extend to them the same cold calculated effort that their machinations operate by.
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Feb 6, 2019 17:54
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Imminent offer status update! Apparently they love me but they now want to hire me as an engineer instead of a senior engineer. Apparently they want people wit a few more years experience for senior level positions. My feeling is that this is a pretty blatent attempt to get me to ratchet down salary expectations. They tried to get me to cough up my current salary "so we get a sense of expectations", but of course I stonewalled on that. My sense is that this butts right up against the definition of negotiating in bad faith. Plan is still to keep being cheerful and accommodating until they cough up an offer, then get some practice negotiating.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:03
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Welp, I played hardball and they took their ball and went home. They came in 15k under where the recruiter had sold me out, with an extra starting week vacation that I’d asked for previously. I told ‘em 5k more would get us to yes, or else I would need the weekend to think about it. 12 hours later they had “re-evaluated” and withdrawn the offer. On one hand, I’m proud of myself for not letting myself get jerked around and asking for what I think I’m worth. On the other, I suppose I overplayed my hand - I was definitely their first choice, but I overestimated how much that meant. Oh well.
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Feb 16, 2019 04:24
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Thanks all. I’m a bit sad because it seemed like interesting work but I can move forward confidently knowing that my future there would have been full of similar jerking around. I still have a great job now that affords me lots of flexibility - I’ve turned down higher offers for similar reasons, so I’m happy to say that my BATNA is tested, intact, and stable.
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Feb 19, 2019 01:15
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Start interviewing. Fling out 5 resumes a day. Leave. If you stay you will be exploited. That's all there is to it.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:35
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C-Euro posted:I'm slowly working my way back into regular job searching now that my wife is employed again, and please remind me- what is the standard tactic when you run into a headhunter who contacts you about a position and says they need your salary requirements before giving your application to the actual hiring manager? The role is a new one for them and not one I've seen before in my industry, so there's a pretty wide salary range in my mind and I could go pretty high with my demand. At the same time I know I'm supposed to put off salary discussion as late as possible in the process, but there must be an easier way to get around this gatekeeping by the recruiter since they always ask this. Yup. Take the highest number you're willing to say, add 20% to that, then pin on the words "negotiable based on benefits and the specifics of the role"
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Mar 28, 2019 17:04
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I'm serious when I say ask for as high a number as your psyche will let you If you undershoot, recruiters eagerly pass on your number to the client while licking their chops thinkin' bout their commission If you overshoot, they will tell the client "they came in high but I think I can talk them down" while licking their chops thinkin' bout their commission If you're feeling very ornery and have time to burn you can always say "the opportunity sounds interesting but I'd like to learn more before I'm able to put a number forth" and then you're free to jerk them around as you please. There's always more information to be had.
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Mar 28, 2019 19:45
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silvergoose posted:Headhunter: "So what sort of salary range would you be thinking of?" It kinda depends on how patient you can afford to be. I think I've mentioned it a couple times in this thread, but a good power move is to simply say no. There are varying levels of buttering it up. Hardball: "No, I do not have a number in mind. I'm clearly qualified for this position, so it'd be a real shame to walk away over this minor detail." Softball: "Well, I'm certainly interested in learning more about the position, but I'd like a better understanding of my responsibilities and the day-to-day of the position before we discuss compensation." Lead-em-on ball: "Let me do some research and get back to you on that. In the meantime, can we discuss the responsibilities of the position further?" (and then you pretty much say variations on this every time they ask afterwards until they get fed up and someone on their end either disengages or puts forth a number. If they get resentful about it just say you will consider all reasonable offers, but you don't have a number in mind, sorry.) They want the commission (and therefore your continued engagement) more than they want the number specifically, so if they think they can place you don't be shy about blowing them off about salary requirements.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:02
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silvergoose posted:All good answers, thanks. This is just the most aggressive headhunter that's contacted me so far. Releasing a number pre-offer is a binary decision. You've either done it or you haven't. If he suggests a number and you nod, you've anchored your starting point there. If he suggests a number and it sounds okay, there are a number of ways to move the conversation along outright giving him a confirmation like "that's an interesting figure, but again, I'm more concerned with whether this is a good fit." pokie posted:I just got off a call with a couple external recruiters. It looks like their client wants to give me an offer and they were feeling me out for what it would take. They know I have two final rounds coming up, one with a company that also likely wants me and I am keen on. They asked me what it would take for me to stop interviewing. I gave them a number that's 33% above my last salary. I will be happy to make what I made before I left my last job, so that seemed reasonable. Then they kept going on about how if they don't think that I will accept an offer that they wouldn't bother going beyond a verbal offer to the written stage. They seemed to really want to know which company I will pick and what I want for it. They asked what would happen if their client couldn't meet my number above, where could we meet etc. This seemed odd to me since if I give them a lower number for that it undermined the negotiating position of my high number. Argh. I called them out on that and they claimed that of course they wouldn't reveal the lower number to the client. Right. I probably hosed up since I admitted that if I had identical offers on the table I wouldn't outright reject an offer that was only 17% above my last salary. This seems kind of common these days. They don't want to extend you the For Real offer until they've isolated you and kind of gotten you sunk into it -- one of the ways they do this is by pressuring you to stop talking to other companies by teasing your imagination with a high desired number. The optimal decision here is to say if you like the offer, you'll stop interviewing. Otherwise, you're going to keep looking and getting offers until you find one you'll take. Admitting what your stopping point was a mistake, and it's an easy one to make, especially in a high-pressure sitch like that. At this point you'll just have to see what they come back with. Next time, if they get you to give up your pie-in-the-sky (which should be AS HIGH AS YOU CAN MAKE YOURSELF COMFORTABLY PRONOUNCE if you're naming the number first) try "see how they respond and we'll take it from there. I'm open to a little horse-trading" or something to that effect. If you've held off on giving a number up to that point, hit 'em with something along the lines of "I'll need to consider all aspects of compensation, of course, but I will consider any reasonable salary they offer." If they outright drop you, that means they weren't interested in negotiating in the first place and you dodged a bullet -- they were more interested in filling a seat than hiring a competent employee. They will work you the same amount no matter how little they get away with paying you. Don't feel guilty about asking for money. They certainly won't feel guilty about not giving it to you.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:50
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pokie posted:Ah that makes sense and is fair. Congrats dude. This Monday? Guess they really want to get you in badly. Don't feel pressured into signing anything you're uncomfortable with without reviewing thoroughly.
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Apr 5, 2019 15:35
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Jordan7hm posted:I’m not sure about this. There’s at least one study to suggest that the bolstering range increases both the average value of the negotiated rate and the chance of a successful negotiated settlement. You should always assume that the person you're negotiating against is a) competent and b) acting in bad faith and will use any speck of leverage they can against you a) is sometimes untrue but you can almost always count on b)! If you simply must give a range, start with the absolute highest number you can say with a straight face on the low end and gently caress-you money on the top end
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Apr 10, 2019 22:47
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taqueso posted:Random thought, any ideas about giving a really low number for the bottom end, so low it can't be a real number? $1.00 to $200,000.00 Cheeky and may turn some hiring managers against you. Perfectly valid, but probably viewed as unprofessional in stuffier circles. Jordan7hm posted:Then why not say 200-250. You can accomplish the same thing by just saying "$250k, negotiable" without anchoring yourself to that lower number. Ranges betray that you want the position and are willing to concede your negotiating position to strike a deal. You should always always always be acting like you don't need the job. You are HOT poo poo. You are the KING poo poo of gently caress MOUNTAIN in your industry, and anything you do to undermine that concept will work against you. An ongoing theme in this thread is that there is information asymmetry in this process that can help or hurt you. If the company has budgeted $230k for that position and you offer $200-250k, just because you're happy to take $200k doesn't mean you can't wind up with a better result by shooting high. If you overshoot your salary goals the company will feel like they're getting a good deal when you accept below your ask. If you undershoot your goals, the company will happily give it to you, and the savvier folks might even whittle you down further from there. That's why it's so important to delay talking numbers until later in the process, when you've dazzled them with your amazing skills and gotten them excited enough about you that they will go out on a limb to get you. Not a Children fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 16:08
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Simpsons Reference posted:Offered 55k salary, no benefits, no bonus that I know of. Do I even bother with a counter offer? No harm in offering a counter for funsies. But yeah, your top priority should be getting other offers because these people suck
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Apr 23, 2019 17:59
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Simpsons Reference posted:They have, surprise surprise, "unlimited PTO" Hahahahah got lovely employer bingo yet? If you really think the manager title on that resume is worth it, by all means, go for it. Negotiate hard and extract your pound of flesh, though. "A 6 month review" is worse than worthless. No benefits, seriously? If I were you I'd be flinging resumes every which way for the duration of employment, because they sound horrid and I'd at least like to get decent loving health insurance as a manager.
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Apr 23, 2019 22:09
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Goddamn. $14 an hour in boston is awful awful awful. I hope your employee gets out. As for you: You're getting hosed, just not quite as badly. Accept it if you want to have something steady, but whether you do or not, find other offers. I mean it. No title is worth being that grossly underpaid.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:25
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The best time to start interviewing to get offers on the table was last month. The second best time is right now.
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May 6, 2019 07:10
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C-Euro posted:Had a phone screen for a new position today, HR rep asked me for my salary requirements and I deflected it into 10-15 minutes of my own (non-salary) questions about the role. HR came back around and I must have worn her down because her "we won't pay you any less than this" number was about 10% higher than what I would have asked for the role Well done! That's the hardest part. Just keep it up and wait for the offer. There's always something more to offer. "I'd like to know everything about the available benefits before I can appropriately assess salary" or "I will consider all reasonable offers" or "I need to confer with my family " (keep the family bit vague, they aren't allowed to ask about stuff like marital status) are all lines I've used to good effect.
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Jun 12, 2019 20:59
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Small victories in salary negotiation. Now to keep deflecting it through the rest of the interview process...
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C-Euro posted:Thanks, I just need to tread lightly as I'm really interested in the role for non-salary reasons after hearing about it. Need to find the right balance between "that salary is perfectly acceptable" and "I want more" that doesn't cause them to lose interest in my application due to my being coy over salary... I wouldn't say anything directly. Just wait until it comes up again organically. Trust me, they're not gonna forget. Just tell them that you're interested in the job and you're happy to consider any reasonable offer. Repeatedly, if necessary. Just stay polite and firm. If you're their first pick they will make you an offer, full stop. If you don't want to go through all that, it's perfectly acceptable if you already have an idea of what you'd like to make (and that number is well researched) to take that internal number, add 20%, and ask for that. It does help that they gave you a baseline, but you never know how high they were willing to go if you throw the number first.
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Jun 12, 2019 23:18
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Chaotic Flame posted:So, I've been moving through a hiring process with a tech company in the Bay (I'm in Chicago) and I put the initial salary discussion on hold in typical fashion (need to know full scope of role, benefits package, etc.). Now that they want to fly me out for a final in-person interview with the team, the recruiter wants to have a quick chat around comp again to feel me out. I've never done a separate follow up call just on comp before an offer so not sure how to play this exactly. Their benefits are actually publicly available and the recruiter gave me the link after our initial call so I have that info but still don't want to throw out a number first since Bay area and I don't want to lowball myself. Any suggestions for this scenario? To add to the post above mine: you're in a pretty good position here to deflect, the recruiter can't do poo poo because you have a reasonable excuse for putting off money talk. Just tell him you want to get a better understanding of the full scope of the job experiences and find out whether it's a good fit. Nuance matters here: Do not say it in a way that explicitly defers money talk until later. Deflect completely and leave the ball in their court so they can't pester you about the number later "because you said you'd talk money after XYZ." Every day you buy in terms of talking to the potential employer is another day they've sunk into you, and another opportunity to show them something to further entice them. I wouldn't even ask for the range. Just go there, wow 'em, and let 'em stew til they cough up a number. Not a Children fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 04:33
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SA Forums Poster posted:What do I do in this situation? "Negotiable" Or, if they push you, "I do not have any particular salary expectation. I will gladly assess any reasonable offer after I have gained a full understanding of the responsibilities and benefits of the position" If they say "I need a number" and simply won't let it drop you can a) test that theory and stonewall with any level of politeness you choose (don't be afraid to repeat yourself) or b) say the highest number you can with a straight face
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Jun 28, 2019 13:10
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pumped up for school posted:Any tips for negotiating with friends? Worked with this guy in the early 2000s, left for a different technical position. We've stayed in touch, got closer since I left. He's looking to create a new position; we've been talking for a while now. He runs a tight ship, good (but small), healthy company. Better benefits than current gig. The technical work will be less interesting. Be a straight shooter. Ask how much he's budgeted for the position and discuss it like adults. If he forces the issue give him your pie-in-the-sky. If he answers but it's too low tell him your top number and hopefully you can meet at something agreeable. It's okay to say no if he can't give you what you want.
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Jun 29, 2019 16:34
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:There's an unbelievable amount of turnover and the people doing the job are absolute idiots. Cutco salespeople have more credibility than most recruiters in my opinion. Can 100% vouch for this Also it's definitely an up-or-out industry, most of the people making cold calls are in their early to mid 20s. They either make it to management or burn out and find another sales job
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Jul 29, 2019 21:44
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Xinlum posted:So I interviewed for a store manager position. I was called today and offered an executive assistant position, reporting directly to the VP and handling the companies HR and facilities management. When I got the offer, the pay is the same we had discussed for the store manager position. Do not take this job unless you can move and/or get enough additional comp to move. Nothing is worth a 90 minute commute, absolutely nothing. e: since this is the negotiation thread, I'll follow up with "compare the cost of living and ask for relative comp based on that." Seriously do not multiply your commute by 18 you will hate everything Not a Children fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 15:02
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I'm coming back to reiterate once more that you absolutely should not take on that commute. Your work day goes from effectively 8.25 hours to 11 hours. That's unpaid time - you're effectively slashing your hourly wage by 25% to sit in your boring-rear end car, racking up gas and maintenance costs, doing one of the most dangerous activities there is, for close to 20% of your waking hours
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Aug 7, 2019 15:41
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I know I'm gonna start sounding like a broken record here, but stomaching something for 6 weeks is completely different from doing it for the forseeable future. Hell, I literally did that commute for 2 months when I was starting my current job as a show of good faith (and to acquaint myself with my team in a different office). Anyway, I redrafted your email for you: Xinlum posted:
Keep in mind I stitched that together in like 2 minutes and I'd probably labor over it a bit more before hitting send. Feel free to modify as you please. I take zero responsibility for the results if you decide to use my language. If you're okay with the salary maybe take the bit about COL out but if you're gonna negotiate you might as well not take half-measures.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:55
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Ultimate Mango posted:I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice: It is not your job to make an industry fair. If it wasn't for America's Actually Factually Insane and Cruel Insurance System I'd say be honest and leave now, but since you have a family to care for hold onto that insurance until you can make that smooth transition.
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Aug 21, 2019 13:43
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You're overthinking it. The onus is not on you to workshop the position with them unless she specifically said "you're not getting a raise" and you agreed on that. If it's really bugging you I guess you could reach out and ask about numbers, but you can always negotiate after you receive the offer. I think that'd be better for your sanity, frankly, because any conversation you have with her now where you attempt to negotiate is invariably going to end with "well I'll run it up the ladder and see what they say." She can always correct the paperwork. That's not a massive undertaking.
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Aug 22, 2019 13:47
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You should be aiming for $250k to start. That'll make pushing for the upper end of that range a little easier. You're an expert in your field and you should treat yourself like one. Don't talk numbers again until you get an offer, and start shopping yourself around immediately. When you do get an offer, hopefully you'll have standing to negotiate something better than what they put forth. Things you can negotiate besides salary are vacation, stock comp, and remote work. That all varies from position to position.
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Aug 22, 2019 16:56
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To be clear, I'm not saying you should be hardballing with a quarter mil figure. However, people who do not operate in the money side of business have a serious tendency to undervalue themselves because a) they have no idea what the cashflow of the business is like and b) they have no perspective on how useful or rare their skills are, because they developed those skills over several years and have been working with people with similar skill sets. The people looking to hire you are 100% willing to take advantage of that discrepancy in knowledge. Don't think about what's "fair" -- your job is to figure out what you could theoretically make, what the target company can afford, and how you can best get them to admit that figure to you. If you go in with the mindset that you COULD be making $250k, it makes it a lot easier to demand, say, $175k.
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Aug 22, 2019 18:15
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just_a_person posted:Thanks to everyone here with the advice. I talked to another person about my offer, and they echo'd a lot of the sentiment in this thread. I'm going to grow a spine and push for a much higher salary. I am working on a counter letter and will set up a proposed time to talk over the phone to finalize details. I plan to have a list of demands outlined in the letter and will probably post it in this thread for advice after it's done. One question, though, should I put a target salary in this counter offer or does it fall under the "never say a number" rule? Once they give you their starting number, you're free to dish out whatever numbers you like. Otherwise it's a weird leaving-them-hanging situation. I would be polite but firm in asserting your desired salary.
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Aug 26, 2019 19:37
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Seconding passing the checks before you give notice. It's a slim chance, but you absolutely do not want to leave yourself high and dry if the worst happens. If they wanted you sooner, they'd guarantee you the job without the checks. That's all there is to it.
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Aug 27, 2019 17:34
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:This isn't even an option; if you worked a full year at that job on all nominal business days you're only gonna hit 131K and you're gonna be paying employment tax on top of your income tax that a W2 position doesn't. Seconded. Also, in the future, I'd advise against revealing your market research sources. Doing so just gives them the opportunity to nitpick your argument for better pay. "Fair" is not the objective here, "what they can afford" is.
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Aug 29, 2019 16:21
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Blue Scream posted:When I applied for a job, the application wouldn’t let me progress without filling in a salary field. So I did. After 3 interviews and a reference check, they offered me the job at the salary I asked for. I asked for 24 hours to think about it. Is it poor form to ask for 10% more ($55K versus $50K offer)? Honestly I intend to accept the job anyway, I just thought I’d see if there would be harm in asking. Don’t want to start the job off with them thinking I’m a bad sport. Next time put a pie in the sky or "negotiable" or "0" in the field. It doesn't hurt to ask, but you really don't have any leverage here unless you're willing to walk away, which it sounds like you are not. You can always fall back on the "whole compensation package" or "market research" line of reasoning, but honestly if you asked for a number and you were given it, there's no smooth way to revisit compensation unless you have a separate offer in hand that you are willing to accept. Better luck next time.
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Sep 4, 2019 06:04
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Hoodwinker posted:I sent an email to Company 1 right after I heard from Company 2 and got an auto-response from the HR rep saying they're out of office until Wednesday Seconded that you need to escalate this if you have any interest in company 1. You have nothing to lose by doing so, and they’re being unprofessional as hell by leaving you hanging like that with no forwarding contact.
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Sep 21, 2019 14:00
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You're at the finish line. You have full knowledge that the offer is coming. You have no obligation to divulge a salary expectation. You can ask what their expectations are and give nothing in return, so long as you're happy taking the offer from #2. "My understanding is that an offer will be forthcoming this afternoon if the position is approved by management. I will need to see the full terms of the offer before making a decision. If after reviewing the offer I feel that the salary needs adjustment, I will send you the salary figure that I would feel comfortable accepting. Can you give me an idea of what I can expect to see?" If they press you on a number, repeat variants of "I'm sure we can come to terms once I see the text of the offer letter. I will give any competitive offer my full consideration" until they give up.
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Sep 25, 2019 15:26
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Got an interesting impasse coming up. I was hired through a recruiter at a new company, doing more-or-less the same thing that I was doing at my last company but for ~20% more. However, I'm technically working through the recruiter for a "contingency period" (note to the readers: NEVER EVER DO THIS. IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WORTH THE HEADACHE). As I should have expected, the contingency period is taking longer than the recruiter sold me on - he told me it'd 3-4 months, I'm getting the sense that it'll be more like 6-7 months (the contract has an upper limit of 8 months). During this time I get garbage benefits and I get paid through the recruiting company (the only positive side of which is that I get 1.5x my rate for weekly hours over 40, which is unheard of in engineering consulting). So, what it boils down to is that at some point in the next 1-4 months I'll very likely be offered a full time position at the company I've been working for. Should I treat this as a full-on negotiation, in that I should have alternate offers ready? My hiring was part of a geographic expansion effort that I believe that many people are loathe to see setbacks on - the position I took was open for a year and a half before I took it, and a few key personnel for the field I'm in have left in recent months, so I think I've got some very real leverage when that juncture arrives in terms of keeping the contracts we have moving forward. I expect they will slide me an offer at my current rate that they'll expect me to perfunctorily sign; is it inappropriate for me to renegotiate my rate at that point?
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Oct 16, 2019 03:20
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Edgar Allan Pwned posted:i received an offer for a 3 month 1099 contract, potential to hire with negotiable salary at that point. how do i ask for more money and how much do i ask for? (for the 1099 position) You need a lot more information for internet strangers to be able to help you at all. What kind of work is it? What level of experience and qualifications do you have? How big is the company? Where is it? Are you employed? Do you have other offers on the table? If not, why not? EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Thanks guys. I'm trying to stay level headed, but obviously I'm failing to do that. I appreciate the insight and the advice to compartmentalize problems. I've got a history of these major transition periods in my life which have (obviously) suited me pretty well up to this point but it's not as though I can just pull up stakes and jump ship. As per usual, Dwight's advice is right on the money. Good luck dude, don't let a relative pittance distract you from what's important in your life
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Oct 17, 2019 19:16
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