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Hello, this is the not-Switzerland forward listening post. If you are a spy of the warring powers please get out. This is the observer thread for the goon game of advance tactics gold. Feel free to discuss any and all state secrets/strategy/whatever Generation Internet's (Glorious Nippon) Perspective http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3765744 Saros's (Middle Kingdom) Perspective http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3769579 I don't own the game, so if someone wants to effort post a little tutorial on the game mechanics I'll quote it here. Pre-War map of all major powers: 
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Mar 25, 2016 21:50
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Soon there'll be a lot less purple on that map, also RIP half of GI's oil sites.
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Mar 25, 2016 21:52
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I'm glad I found this game just in time for everything to kick off 
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Mar 25, 2016 21:58
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It's quite astounding how he doublethought away every doubt about Saros despite knowing the man is a self-professed schemer. Also amazing: how his allies were bailing out on him before the invasion even began. I wonder how things will go from there. I think that the best chance he has is if he can actually start a two-front war to get Grey access to his front line, invading Das Reich won't do much either way (and I don't think German forces will get that far, anyway).
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Mar 25, 2016 22:00
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SIGSEGV posted:Soon there'll be a lot less purple on that map, also RIP half of GI's oil sites. GI is done for. He doesn't have the forces to redeploy to stop Saros amphibious force and hold the line elsewhere. He literally has no strategic reserve. I doubt he'll be able to scratch together enough new forces, with so much production capacity lost outright. Unless Saros fucks up his logistics this will be a very short war.
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Mar 25, 2016 22:03
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Narita's going to fall pretty swiftly. It would seem even the Soviet front will probably hold for a while, but unless the other members of the Axis open up a front, Nippon can't hold out forever. It would be nice for Cairo to open up on the Germans in an effort to fight their way to China but that would probably be slow going (and Cairo may not want to do that). How quickly do boats and other things get built? Is it the same amount of time for everything or is rushed production possible? GI mentioned capital ships being expensive, but I don't know if that's just in general or when you're being rushed into war. e:nm, just read Saros' thread and noticed that the battleship is not going to show up. Kangra fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Mar 25, 2016 |
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Mar 25, 2016 22:07
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I was hoping GIs battleship would gloriously crush the invading force in a climactic battle, but alas that did not happen.
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Mar 25, 2016 22:21
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There's no ‘rushed production’, but you can pick what you produce and send fresh-from-the-line (under prepared) units into battle. Each city has four slots and 8000 points to split (in 10% increments) between those slots. This includes supplies, pp (political points for diplomacy/officers, research, building facilities, upgrading mines), and general unit production. The capital city has more points (and is worth 4VP instead of 1). This is why factories and shipyards are super important - they can't produce supplies but produce as much of their speciality group (tanks, artillery/flak/at guns, planes and boats) as a city , and can split between 3-4 different options if needed (e.g. a medium tank, a light tank, a halftrack and an armoured car). A city can in theory produce a battleship a turn - if it produces nothing else. However, that battleship needs a unit to join (or 1pp to create a new one), then a steady flow of supplies to bring combat readiness up to 100%. This would normally take 2-3 turns, and a couple more turns would let the unit experience head towards the normal value of 40. Hard targets like battleships and tanks can quite capably fight off lighter enemies at almost zero readiness and experience because you're not getting through several mm of steel with a dozen bolt action rifles alone. Saros already has cruisers, light armour formations of his own, and some organic AT capability so a sudden splurge in hard targets with the intent to rush them into the enemy will not be spectacularly effective. If GI went into full production mode it'd be problematic as the rest of his forces would then be without supplies, and thereby weakened significantly - the penalties for lack of supply swiftly exceed those of being attacked from multiple sides by a great margin. At the current rate, he might have to do that anyway, as he's just lost about a third of his supply and production (Narita can't really ship anything to the Soviet front before it falls). For land and air units, new production goes into a pool and is then distributed from the HQ of the city to whatever forces need it, taking a turn or two depending on distances, number of layers in the chain of command, availability of transport, etc. This is not the case for Naval units, which will be generated as a part of (or a new token with pp cost if none exists) whatever forces are stationed within that city/shipyard, which makes concentrating naval forces at short notice difficult. What GI desperately needs to do is create a super-super-alliance with at least one of the Russian factions involved. If he can secure his other borders, he can actually make it very hard for Saros and company to get much further. Recapturing Nagaoka and keeping Narita free are going to be very hard and long-term goals, however. Dryb/The Empire is the most economically powerful faction at this moment and Saros/China is the most skilled player in the game, whilst Phi/Germany has demonstrated excellent coordination with his allies. In this sort of situation , especially with GI/Japan so heavily bloodied before any real fighting starts, a 5v3 of “rookies vs vets” makes sense. It’d be very hard to sell, though, given GI’s prior Loose Lips mishap and the geographical problems that ChumpFarts/Soviets face. GH/Burgundy does as GH does. Dtzkol/Cairo is clearly competent and has learned from previous matches he's played, but is way out of position right now (I think; we're a turn or two behind on his PoV).
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Mar 25, 2016 22:48
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The only way I can see GI surviving at all would be to somehow pull his entire army off the soviet border to defend a rump state. I just don't see how he could manage to swing that deal with the commies
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Mar 25, 2016 22:50
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pthighs posted:I was hoping GIs battleship would gloriously crush the invading force in a climactic battle, but alas that did not happen. I assume his battleship just wasn't finished? Built one turn too late? Also, I've played a little of the ground game in this, but no sea stuff. Would the battleship have auto sortied to intercept or anything? I assume not because the planes didn't, but...
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Mar 25, 2016 23:04
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Keep in mind that the soviets have to defend a long, thin corridor. GH could conceivably just bowl through and rush to GI's aid, if he is so inclined
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Mar 25, 2016 23:16
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Tevery Best posted:It's quite astounding how he doublethought away every doubt about Saros despite knowing the man is a self-professed schemer. Also amazing: how his allies were bailing out on him before the invasion Dryb taking that island in the inland sea should have put everybody on high alert, but tensions with the Soviets were so high at that point he couldn't have pulled troops off the line without triggering an opportunistic attack from Chump Farts. Phi also deserves credit for channeling Hitler so well that he sucked up all the oxygen in the room. Also, dtkotzl is a straight busta. Abandoning your allies the moment the shooting starts? No bushido.
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Mar 25, 2016 23:18
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I'm far more impressed by Phi230's acting than anyone else's. I mean, Saros with a public alliance with The Empire and making ambivalent noises over whether he wants to actually attack Das Reich is going after... who else?
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Mar 25, 2016 23:42
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Yep, Phi played it really well.
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Mar 25, 2016 23:46
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Pretty much credit to Phi; if GI had realized that Germany was already aligned, he'd have done something other than "pray that no navy is necessary." As is, GI is unbelievably hosed since his early alliance declaration was basically a declaration of war against the soviets. Feels like a Dom4 alpha, to be honest. Part of why I had to stop playing that game; diplo was so brutally stressful.
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Mar 26, 2016 00:04
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GI was screwed the moment he ended up without neighboring allies. There was no way he could protect against both the Soviet/German land border and the coast/Middle Kingdom. Even if he didn't trust Saros I'm not sure what else he could have done instead. Dryb seems to be getting the short end of the stick (or at least is extremely trusting of Saros and Phi). He's got no land border with any of the Axis powers and has invested a good chunk of his military spending to sail out and fight on the other side of the world. Even if he gets some Nippon territory it will be thousands of miles away with the only access through Weichang. unwantedplatypus posted:Keep in mind that the soviets have to defend a long, thin corridor. GH could conceivably just bowl through and rush to GI's aid, if he is so inclined If the Axis and Russians go to war now they both lose to Saros & Co unless one side or the other can land a knockout blow on the first punch. Saros has already taken a big step over the rest of the field with his gains in Nippon, and Phi will likely have a turn or two to advance into Cairo before any significant resistance forms. It will be interesting to see if the two sides can bury the hatchet to go after the bigger long term threat. Wildcard option would be if the Eastern Empire jumps to the Axis for those sweet Russian culture cities and ensures that Chump Farts goes down quick 
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Mar 26, 2016 00:05
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Hmmm, current situation may prove to be quite destabilizing for the Russian alliance. Since everyone else will soon be at war in some way, and not neccessarily at war with them, devouring each other becomes feasible. The Russian Empire could also go after the British, once the brits are bogged down. Very interesting what the Soviets will do.
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Mar 26, 2016 00:15
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Ah good, an observer thread. Now I can openly ponder whether after I finish catching up on Generation Internet's thread and jump into Saros' thread will I immediately see "the great plan to betray Nipppon". ... He really is Poland.
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Mar 26, 2016 00:30
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This isn't Dominions. Taking Nipponese cities doesn't automatically turn Saros into a superpower or let him field larger armies. The captured cities don't even produce supplies, let alone units. GI has been hurt more than Saros has benefitted, and faces a hell of a time trying to recover from that considering the terrain (or even holding against further amphibious assaults with his current deployment and russian concerns), but cities changing hands are far lesss relevant to every other player in the game than the revelation about the anglo-sino-germanic allaince. The oil wells, factory and mines are absolutely beneficial, but Dryb somehow lucked out and started with the most natural resource points in the game so it sort of put Saros into barely-to-joint-first rather than leapfrogging everyone else. Dryb taking a city would leave him with no way to get supplies to it the moment Saros turns on him, with the exception of stockpiling in advance (difficult) or reprising what Saros just did to GI to keep his access through Weichang. Oil and ore could be redirected through local HQs if he captures some of those in the vicinity, but you can't feed people with those. This is probably why he's so heavily invested into airframes, which he can project and withdraw with comparative ease. Dryb being hung out to dry by this strategy (and Saros needing to subsequently decide between Dryb and Phi for his next victim) is a good part of why I talked myself down to only 60-40 on Saros going down this path (the remaining part is that I am gullible enough to believe that Saros is on the upright if that's what GI thinks  ).
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Mar 26, 2016 00:44
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Mightypeon posted:Hmmm, current situation may prove to be quite destabilizing for the Russian alliance. I would expect the Soviets to take some of Nippon's eastern land since he'll be a really easy target. Beyond that, the logical thing seems to be to attack Burgundy and Cairo. It's one long front and they would be two against one versus Burgundy since Cairo will probably be pretty busy fighting off Das Reich. Attacking the Empire doesn't seem like a smart move because they're the least involved in the current war and only share a border with one of the Russian states.
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Mar 26, 2016 00:47
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While I'd like to see one of these actually go beyond the "we started a war!" portion, I'd also like to see some of the mods this game has. There's space colonialism stuff, probably even fantasy junk, all sorts of poo poo. One day. edit: Alright, looking into it these mods go ham, actually. We have Lord of the Rings, Napoleonic Wars, space stuff... Gamerofthegame fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 01:53
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Tell me about your plans, GI.
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Mar 26, 2016 04:01
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Suspected this the moment those jeeps popped up on the chi/jpn border, and had it confirmed with that island base stuff. GI really had tunnel vision on the Soviets/Germans. Considering his coastline I knew where this was going when he had his navy as an afterthought for so long
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Mar 26, 2016 08:32
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To be fair GI's geography would have royally hosed him no matter who he sided with. Coastline is a border with everyone else who has a coastline. That narrow land bridge between Narita and Nagaoka was almost completely indefensible whilst sustaining any other borders. A single paradrop, let alone naval movements, would have screwed his supply chain up something fierce. Late game war against The Empire or Eastern Empire? They could still have gone for his jugular with a single token whilst he'd have needed exponentially more forces to have anything near the same effect on them. This is probably why ChumpFarts started to invest in some boats of his own. Plus, even the AI sticks garrisons in cities. A single full-strength rifle division could probably have killed the entire landing force if it had tried directly on the city, though landing forces do fight longer and harder than normal because they get destroyed if they don't win during a landing.
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Mar 26, 2016 12:34
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Nullkigan posted:To be fair GI's geography would have royally hosed him no matter who he sided with. Coastline is a border with everyone else who has a coastline. That narrow land bridge between Narita and Nagaoka was almost completely indefensible whilst sustaining any other borders. A single paradrop, let alone naval movements, would have screwed his supply chain up something fierce. Late game war against The Empire or Eastern Empire? They could still have gone for his jugular with a single token whilst he'd have needed exponentially more forces to have anything near the same effect on them. Just like in Civ, why wouldn't you just stick at least one token unit on a city to protect it against the most basic attacks? Did he just feel it was too expensive in terms of production?
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Mar 26, 2016 17:06
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GI seems awfully smug considering what's happening. I wonder if Dryb backstabbed Saros; he seemed to be devoting a lot of resources to helping out his ally for apparently no return.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:18
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I think GI just genuinely doesn't understand the magnitude of how damaging Saros's attack was. He still hasn't gotten the save so he hasn't actually seen what's happened yet.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:25
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PhantomZero posted:Just like in Civ, why wouldn't you just stick at least one token unit on a city to protect it against the most basic attacks? Did he just feel it was too expensive in terms of production? In an AI game I could understand it, as they've never done a paradrop or amphibious assault that I've seen. Against human players? There's no valid reasoning I can think of for leaving a city that undefended for that long, especially when the production of another city relies upon it. Yes, he has long fronts against Chumpfarts and still hadn't plugged all the gaps as of his last turn, but even then he was within range of paradrops from CF's airbase on the northern front. A single fighter sweep to tie up the interceptors and Nagaoka could just have easily been in Soviet hands right now. Ironically the defensive bonuses for cities are so huge that a single under-strength token could probably have held off the entire invasion force until GI could retask units from other fronts, but Narita would still have fallen in a turn or two. Planes don't stop land units attacking their bases (intercept only works against air units), not sure about boats as it's never come up. The BB would have popped up at the start of GI's turn, so Saros might have dodged some losses by striking at the perfect time. I've never fielded BBs so I don't know if they're basically the naval equivalent of tanks to the humble destroyer's infantry, but it's probably more heavy tanks vs light tanks/armoured cars, so it might've just taken one or two units with it before it was Grey Hunter'd. Dryb would find it quite difficult to turn on Saros right now. As allies they share all map information so there's no real way to sneak a reserve into place without it being obvious, and with his heavy investment in airframes he's super reliant on someone else being between him and the heaviest fighting.
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Mar 26, 2016 17:37
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would anyone be willing to do a general writeup on the mechanics of this game?
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Mar 26, 2016 18:10
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vyelkin posted:I think GI just genuinely doesn't understand the magnitude of how damaging Saros's attack was. He still hasn't gotten the save so he hasn't actually seen what's happened yet. I'm so glad Saros started his thread, just to put GI right now in context. VVV Him too. Magical all around. sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 18:22
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sniper4625 posted:just to put Agreed
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Mar 26, 2016 18:28
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GI doesn't know what is happening and his allies apparently didn't even bother sending him screenshots or making comments beyond noting an invasion. Edit: Was talking a bit with Grey Hunter and while he was not telling me anything he did mention lots of emails and backstabs. The tension is killing me. Riso fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Mar 26, 2016 |
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Mar 26, 2016 18:33
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Generation Internet posted:My aggressor is getting smug and playing mind games. I feel bad for him. I'm betting that first, he has no idea he's already lost the entire north of his country, his battleship, his lines of production, and is being attacked by probably two players, and is almost certainly going to be the first player eliminated. But more importantly, I bet he has no idea that his allies can see that's the case, hadn't actually started their planned war yet, and are now probably deciding exactly how much they should screw GI, up to and including grabbing their own chunks of his territory while the grabbing is good. He's totally hosed. As for the indefensibility of his territory: "defense in depth" is a doctrine. It's a thing. You do not have to concentrate all of your forces on a border. There are disadvantages to a defense in depth doctrine, no doubt about it, but when you have almost no navy, have seen a big pile of unallied transports in the water, and your response is "build a battleship" instead of "fortify my cities," you're simply making a predictable and fatal error. The battleship is especially egregious because it's a capital ship without escort; why would you do that? A single flight of torpedo bombers could take it out. How is a battleship going to be more useful than two cruisers or four destroyers? But I still feel really bad for him. He's not played against real humans before and it's showing. He's got the mechanics of unit construction down really well and he's obviously a pretty smart guy, but he simply did not understand what a well-planned amphibious invasion could accomplish in a single game turn.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:02
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/\/\/\/\ I feel bad because no garrisons and the planes wiped out is just...  warhammer651 posted:would anyone be willing to do a general writeup on the mechanics of this game? The biggest thing I'm interested in is how people arrange their OOB. I always seem to put way too many units under one HQ. I guess I want them to be 'front' HQs, not division level?
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Mar 26, 2016 20:03
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The lp is making me want to grab ATG with the -30% voucher but I fear it will languish in my library like DCB (although I have played twice vs ai badly), Commander The Great War (finished as CP at least once) and Ultimate General (not even played).
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Mar 26, 2016 20:21
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Just remember the game went down to 65%+ off on steam, twice. It's worth waiting it out. I've been trying another game against the AI, and there are a couple of observations relevant to the last few points (less so against players):
Saros certainly has more of the ruleset down than the other players. No real uncertainty about staffing levels and he even remembered about wintering troops in urban hexes to reduce readiness disruption and supply usage during bad seasons. Dirty manual readers! Each form of attack (land, arty, air, naval) also generates points that make further attacks of that kind less effective on the target hex for the rest of your turn. You can't just throw ten units in a single hex and have them beat down the unit directly in front of them without severe losses, whether you send them in one at a time or all at once. Chump Farts might not realise that his artillery ball can will suffer reduced effectiveness after ten guns (or five heavy guns) hit each hex, but they're expensive enough he probably doesn't have that many.
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Mar 26, 2016 20:46
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Leperflesh posted:I feel bad for him. I'm betting that first, he has no idea he's already lost the entire north of his country, his battleship, his lines of production, and is being attacked by probably two players, and is almost certainly going to be the first player eliminated. But more importantly, I bet he has no idea that his allies can see that's the case, hadn't actually started their planned war yet, and are now probably deciding exactly how much they should screw GI, up to and including grabbing their own chunks of his territory while the grabbing is good. He's totally hosed. The other two are in a formal, mechanical alliance so they're stuck in it for now.
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Mar 26, 2016 21:08
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Is an alliance of more than two even more difficult to break? Can no one leave without declaring war on everyone in it, or is it possible for Burgundy & Cairo to separately kick out Nippon? (I suppose in theory they could formally be at war for a turn and then go right back to peace/alliance if this is the case.)
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Mar 26, 2016 22:45
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The only way to defend that one hex peninsula would have been to garrison the cities and direct approaches to the cities heavily, and make sure the garrison units were drawing supply from a HQ in the city, that had a very high level of reserve supply set. Once the city becomes isolated Generation Internets could set the HQ to be under the command of the city and set the city to produce enough supply to feed the forces defending it. This would at least mean the cities would have to be taken through fighting rather than starving them out. Whilst the cities were besieged GI could then send his armour charging to the rescue. Unfortunately GI deployed on the border with Saros so his troops are isolated away from the cities that should be supplying them. The games not over for GI though. Saros has taken two cities and will have destroyed GI's northern armies in a turn or two. However GI's northern army is by far his weakest. He still has powerful Armoured formations and a lot of Infantry Corps. If he consolidates on defensive lines and turtles like hell he could well hold out until the political situation turns, particularly considering how his status in the eyes of the game players will have changed from "Member of the most dangerous alliance" to "Guy who just got his poo poo pushed in".
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Mar 27, 2016 02:59
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GI is doomed, I can't see him peacing out and half his allies have just abandoned him. Hopefully they leave him with one city so we can see the rest of the game from his POV.
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Mar 27, 2016 03:01
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