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Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



Motronic posted:

While I know it should be stained and and that would be glorious, I love that the etching matches the staircase details.

Oh yeah I suppose those motifs do go together. I mean, it’s not at all bad as a window design, except... it’s not actual etching, just a decal.

nm posted:

Basically everything everyone did to houses before like 2010 is just loving criminal.
I almost understand why windows got hosed up. Finding a guy to replace a few sashes even 10-15 years ago was tough. Everyone just told you to buy new windows. The only reason my parenst found a guy is my uncles one of the best woodturners in the country and knew the few people doing other resto work.
Now there's several people who do it locally, but man it was annoying even recently. Also, sometime around 1960, I think they stopped telling people how to service wood windows which led to a ton of jammed frames and dryrot.

I think my dad got his windows made by a local carpenter who might have not even specialized in windows. With the right tools (which are all standard), anyone with a carpentry background could make an old fashioned wood window, I think.

But yeah, there was definitely a huge shift in attitude about maintaining vs replacing. The rise of planned obsolescence probably had something to do with it. Design the thing to fail irreparably after a time and then sell more things!

Toebone posted:

My house has amazing 1830s wooden windows everywhere except the living room, where some poor misguided soul replaced them with terrible, cheap aluminum ones. I can't even open them without something popping out of the frame half the time so they mostly stay behind curtains.

Those window sound cool. Were you able to fix them/find a better solution than the dowels?

His Divine Shadow posted:

What? Two pane windows last as long as single pane windows, maintaining the seals in a traditional wooden two pane window is part of regular upkeep and can be done with stuff you get from a hardware store for a few euros, it's proven and efficient technolgy from the 1800s, these old windows are efficient to the point that studies showed you wouldn't recoup the costs by moving to modern three pane windows (the norm here).

And the energy savings are huge if you live anywhere with a winter, can't be offset with any amount of ceiling insulation where I live. And also if you live anywhere with a hot summer it saves on AC costs.

[...]

Edit 2: Some examples of these old style windows, putting decorations between the panes is common, often a material that helps regulate moisture


[...]

So this might not be traditional victorian or old US style, but I think the concept could be carried over and be used to modernize old single pane windows, without wholesale replacement or buying dodgy windows with solutions that sound like they don't work longterm.

So, I think we are talking about completely different things here. When I say “double-paned”, this is what I mean:



The two glass panes are mounted close together within the sash. The seal I’m talking about is made at the factory and is hermetic and maintenance free (aka unserviceable). It’s not pretty when it fails:


Ten years after installation, this crappy window, which replaced its much longer lived wooden predecessor, has failed and needs to be replaced. The broken seal cannot be fixed, and the area between the panes cannot be accessed without destroying the window. This place doesn’t even need the double panes because it is a summer house and is boarded up in the winter. It was installed by the other side of the family, who are into short term cheap fixes.

What you seem to be talking about is not what I regard as double paned windows, but single paned windows fitted with what we know as storm panes or storm windows, which are removable and maintainable second panes that you mount on the interior or exterior of your existing windows.

I did mention them:

quote:

...if you do stuff like insulate the attic and install storm panes and good window treatments, you can easily make up for the energy savings you lose by not having that second pane.

Storm panes seem to have fallen out of favor in the States and been supplanted by the concept of mass window replacement with expensive “maintenance free” energy efficient windows typically made out of petrochemicals that outright fail after 20-30 years and need replacing yet again. Why would window companies want to sell you storm panes that you can maintain and mount yourself and use to save just as much energy for way less money and increase the longevity of your wood windows that you can have made (or god forbid, repaired) at a local millwork shop and not in the window company’s specialized factory? Doing smart European things like retrofitting and maintaining old windows and being sustainable and poo poo is antithetical to the twisted system that is American capitalism.

Luckily you can still get storm panes made, but it is not the mainstream solution by any means, even though they used to be much more common.

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Toebone
Jul 1, 2002

Start remembering what you hear.

Queen Victorian posted:

Those window sound cool. Were you able to fix them/find a better solution than the dowels?

Nah, I got distracted by some other stuff and forgot that little project. I did put down some peel and stick and fresh quarter-round over the old nightmare of a kitchen floor, it really freshened things up.



(New trim isn't installed yet in the picture, but I did a good job and now can't help but notice how sloppy it is in the rest of the house)

Toebone fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Apr 9, 2021

Toebone
Jul 1, 2002

Start remembering what you hear.

Quote isn't edit

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."


Hi. We call those storm windows. Those are not double panes.

slave to my cravings
Mar 1, 2007

Got my mind on doritos and doritos on my mind.

We moved into our new house about six weeks ago. Yesterday we noticed the fridge was not cooling to below 40F so we had a repair guy come out. We have a single door GE monogram fridge and it is likely 15 years old (https://appliances.monogram.com/us/specs/ZIRS360NXRH). He tested the coolant pressure and said we had a coolant leak, and could refill it but can’t do the leak repair. It started cooling down immediately so it seems like we have a temporary fix at least, but it may not last very long (repair guy said maybe a year but that sounds overly optimistic).

I’ve been reading about leak sealants you can inject but that seems like they may not work. However if they are only 50-60 bucks and the alternative is just buying a new fridge anyway I’m wondering if I should try it. Anyone ever use these with success? I guess the alternative is finding another repair person that could do the leak repair proper but that would probably be 300-400$ and if it’s in an unserviceable location I’m still out of luck.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Queen Victorian posted:

Storm panes seem to have fallen out of favor in the States and been supplanted by the concept of mass window replacement with expensive “maintenance free” energy efficient windows typically made out of petrochemicals that outright fail after 20-30 years and need replacing yet again. Why would window companies want to sell you storm panes that you can maintain and mount yourself and use to save just as much energy for way less money and increase the longevity of your wood windows that you can have made (or god forbid, repaired) at a local millwork shop and not in the window company’s specialized factory? Doing smart European things like retrofitting and maintaining old windows and being sustainable and poo poo is antithetical to the twisted system that is American capitalism.

Luckily you can still get storm panes made, but it is not the mainstream solution by any means, even though they used to be much more common.

See I don't really understand storm panes, or storm windows or knew what they where, I thought it was something people put over exterior windows, on the outside of the house, since I saw some canadian do that once on youtube and said they where storm windows and I think they might've been plastic, so I wasn't sure the concept as I meant it even existed in the US. Until just now then.

And they aren't the norm here either, but they are still around and made as a niche product and still around on old houses(not always...). They manage to be effective enough to keep around. I'm really quite impressed that 19th century tech holds up so well. Still storm panes seem like a good way then to modernize old windows without having to resort to too modern solutions.

His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Apr 9, 2021

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


nm posted:

Hi. We call those storm windows. Those are not double panes.

There are two layers of glass to the window, that's what I would call double pane. I guess this is a language barrier thing.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

His Divine Shadow posted:

There are two layers of glass to the window, that's what I would call double pane. I guess this is a language barrier thing.

Yeah, its a language thing.
The guy above me has a better post explaining what we mean.
Double panes just don't look right in old houses and you can't clean the center section.

When I lived in MN, the 20s houses I lived in had storm windows, though here in CA they don't happen, but maybe should due to AC now.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


I love storm windows, now that I know what they're called. I'm a big proponent for their use. Sometimes I wish I lived in an old late 1800s farmhouse with these types windows and a woodstove in the kitchen.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006



I don’t know what the thread title is in reference to but ironically my ice maker just died yesterday.

Found out my fridge has a particular flaw where the wires leading to the ice machine near the bottom hinge of the door rub against the door every time it’s opened and wind up breaking after about 18 months. Proper fix is a whole new door at around $1000.

BadSamaritan
May 2, 2008

crumb by crumb in this big black forest



Our house’s Previous Owners () did crappy vinyl replacement windows throughout the house and in the process jettisoned the two decorative front windows with stained glass detailing. Our neighbor has them and wants to keep them (to keep in their basement or whatever, thx).

We’ve had to replace the failed balances in most of the crummy new windows and have the joy of missing out on some nice original detailing. Cool cool. I’m so sick of paying to remedy ‘low/no maintenance’ Boomer home improvements. Next up: the slapdash vinyl siding job.

devmd01
Mar 7, 2006

Elektronik
Supersonik


Spent a lot of time last fall cleaning/patching/priming the rear and right walls in the garage. Now that the weather is above minimum paint application temp I got around to putting some color on. I’ll be continuing the grey all the way around my workbench area but that is a project for another day, I have a couple of other items to address before I start patching and painting that area.



Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



nm posted:

The guy above me has a better post explaining what we mean.



His Divine Shadow posted:

I love storm windows, now that I know what they're called. I'm a big proponent for their use. Sometimes I wish I lived in an old late 1800s farmhouse with these types windows and a woodstove in the kitchen.

Yes, they are a very good solution and I wish they were presented as a solution more often, rather than the ubiquitous “replace all your windows for ~*energy efficiency savings*~ and please ignore the astronomical cost which means they’ll never actually pay for themselves in energy cost savings before they fail and need to be replaced again.”

When reading your post I was like, “Wait, there are maintainable double paned wood windows from the 1800s?? Why the gently caress don’t I know about these??” then “Ohhhh those are storm panes!” One confusing thing is that the interior panes are still often called storm windows even though the interior pane is inside insulating and leaving the window itself exposed to storms so it’s a bit of a misnomer. Window inserts make more sense for referring to the interior second panes.

A good US-based resource for understanding the deal with old houses and their windows is Old House Guy, who bitches about replacement windows in old houses far more than I do. He has a whole section of window blog posts and articles: https://www.oldhouseguy.com/windows/

Not the best writing, but he makes some very astute observations about why replacement windows often look so bad and presents alternatives to replacement for old house owners.

BadSamaritan posted:

Our house’s Previous Owners () did crappy vinyl replacement windows throughout the house and in the process jettisoned the two decorative front windows with stained glass detailing. Our neighbor has them and wants to keep them (to keep in their basement or whatever, thx).

That’s kinda bullshit your neighbor won’t sell/give them back when they’re not doing anything with them. I actually have a silly noble fantasy of salvaging all the neato old house parts from neighboring houses if/when flippers get a hold of them and hoardingholding onto them and when the new folks move in and are like “oh no I totally wish our house had some old charm like yours” then I’ll be like, “you’re in luck because I happen to have the missing parts from your house in my basement. Lemme go get them for you”.

At the very least, I can more realistically snap before photos and offer my house as a reference (it has a twin next door and also a lot of doppelgängers nearby, and otherwise the houses around here are pretty cookie cutter - all the builders at the time seemed to have worked from the same small pool of stock plans).

Would your neighbor at least let you look at/borrow them to take photos and measurements so you can replicate them? My house’s twin still has one of its stained glass transoms, and now that it’s not occupied I really need to go over and take some closeup pics of it and measurements.

quote:

We’ve had to replace the failed balances in most of the crummy new windows and have the joy of missing out on some nice original detailing. Cool cool. I’m so sick of paying to remedy ‘low/no maintenance’ Boomer home improvements. Next up: the slapdash vinyl siding job.

That sucks. When we moved in, none of the old windows with cord & counterweight balances worked because the cords had all been either painted in place or cut because our PO was a clueless idiot about this house. Luckily it was pretty easy to fix. But then again it was old poo poo that the PO had destructively tampered with out of ignorance, not new poo poo that broke all by itself.

I actually just read an article on different types of balances with pros and cons that I dredged up on Google and it was on a window installer website and they listed cord & counterweight as having only one pro - nostalgia - with a bunch of cons, which included cords tending to fray (untrue if you use the correct type/quality of cord or a chain), and requiring specialized repair (also untrue - took us like two diagrams and a half hour of YouTube to become Specialized Antique Window Repairpeople ourselves because old windows are supposed to be easily repairable). Kinda pissed me off. But now I know about other types of balances, though I need to find more balanced sources on balances in the future.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

The only hard thing about weight and pulley windows, unless you have dryrot, is getting the balance right. And the good news is that if you open up your windows (or maybe walls), there is almost certainly a perfect set of counter weights in there!
There were some wood windows built without access ports, likely by assholes, but it isn't THAT hard to make an hole and cover, but if you're nervous I'm sure many people can make them for way too much (not much money but what seems like a lot of 10 minutes per window).

Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



The worst we ran into in that regard was stops that were affixed with nails instead of screws and also painted on, which meant some prying and unsightly damage to the paint. One access panel was missing, but that was because it had disintegrated along with the bottom quarter of the jamb.

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peanut
Sep 9, 2007




All of our windows are horizontal sliders They still go bad eventually if earthquakes bend the frames.

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