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  • Locked thread
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

by Pragmatica


This is certainly a new way of directing the narrative. It's impossible to debate someone who sees objectivity or rationality as oppressive.

Jane Austin, noted Feminist posted:

I think I am justified — though where so many hours have been spent in convincing myself that I am right, is there not some reason to fear I may be wrong?


Sir William Drummond of Logiealmond, cishet shitlord posted:

He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.







Since you can't challenge their beliefs without oppressing them, you further their position. It's brilliant in a way. It's also really, really bizarre:

4 Reasons Demanding ‘Objectivity’ in Social Justice Debates Can Be Oppressive

1. Often, Those Who Seem ‘Objective’ Are Actually Just Privileged

quote:

Being able to remain unaffected during discussions about racism is a result of my white privilege.

2. Everyone Speaks From a Social Position and Has Biases

quote:

Our identities affect our lived experiences because society attaches certain values to our identities. For example, your gender will affect the way society treats you because we live in a cissexist, sexist society.

quote:

From this perspective, nobody can ever argue from an objective or neutral perspective on things like social justice – because society treats no identity with neutrality.

3. Striving Towards ‘Objectivity’ Is Used to Justify Tone-Policing

quote:

But when people are emotional during discussions, they’re often tone-policed. This means that their views are seen as irrelevant because their tone comes off as angry, rude, or upset – even though they have every right to be hurt in those situations.

Objectivity and tone-policing are strongly interlinked because they stem from the same idea: that showing emotion invalidates your argument.

At the end of the day, tone-policing is a tool used against marginalized people who are upset about their oppression – and should be.

4. Sometimes Emotions Are Just as Important as Facts

quote:

Here’s the thing: Oppression doesn’t simply affect people in political and economic ways. It also affects a person’s emotional and psychological health.

quote:

Rather than dismissing emotions or seeing them as a sign of a lack of objectivity, we need to engage with them. We need to understand that feelings, lived experiences, and psychology are absolutely important in activism and social justice.

quote:

It’s important that we think about the way society glorifies objectivity and how this can be harmful to marginalized people. Thinking deeply about how we debate and think is crucial in interacting with others on the topic of social justice.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/03/objectivity-can-be-oppressive/


3 Reasons It’s Irrational to Demand ‘Rationalism’ in Social Justice Activism

quote:

The scenario is always the same: I say we should abolish prisons, police, and the American settler state — someone tells me I’m irrational. I say we need decolonization of the land — someone tells me I’m not being realistic.

Whenever I hear this, I stop and think about the world we’d live in if previous European colonizers were berated with the same rhetoric about rationalism as we abolitionists are today.

quote:

But it makes sense why many of those who are committed to social justice subscribe to the same language of rationalism as their oppressors. Marginalized folks are taught from infancy that they need to behave in a respectable manner to be treated with decency. We face so much violence, to the point where the violence becomes the norm and our resistance is what feels extreme.

quote:

For those of us who are trying to burn the colonial project to the ground and build a new world, we have to stop placing limits on ourselves in a world that is already at our throats.

Abolitionists, those who are invested in abolishing police, prisons, the settler colonial nation-state, cannot afford to be held back by what is deemed rational. In fact, rationalism has no place in abolitionism.

1. Being Rational Has No Inherent Value

quote:

If I’m not rational, then I must not be thinking correctly, which makes me incompetent and unqualified to even have political opinions.

Or so I thought.

The truth is, this constant emphasis on rationalism is a load of toxic garbage (and this is me being gentle with my words). It reeks of the rancid odor that develops when we squeeze our vast imaginations into tiny boxes labeled “pragmatic,” “rational,” and “reasonable.” Being rational can often mean being willing to accept some aspects of oppression and watering down my politics.

2. Rationalism Is a Tool Made to Hurt Us

quote:

Since what’s rational is subjective, it is thus indefinable. The only reason why rationalism is believed to have inherent value is because it echoes the oppressor’s way of thinking.

When oppressors have the power to decide what’s rational, they get to commit irrational acts and claim them as rational justifications for oppression.

quote:


Rationalism means we’re working within the framework of a system that was built to harm us in the first place.

And that, for me, is completely irrational — and it’s violent and oppressive to expect that of anyone who suffers from the exploitation and abuse of this system.

But to take it a step further, rationalism is subjective.

3. We Are Enough Without Rationalism

quote:

We should be constantly interrogating why being rational has been presumed to hold inherent value, and we should be asking ourselves where we got that idea in the first place. The institutions that taught us what we know should be placed under suspicion.

quote:

And before school, we are socialized into being obedient through the ways that oppression influences the way we raise children and build interpersonal relationships.

quote:

The longer we postpone abolition based on “logical” arguments, the longer we’re denied basic autonomy. It’s a fallacy to believe that we’ll be given a more opportune time to abolish prisons and decolonize, because the role of the state is to never provide that opportunity.

When we frame abolition and decolonization as “long-term” goals, we operate under the belief that these goals can only happen in the distant future. We need to instead reframe abolition and decolonization as urgent, immediate goals.

quote:

We are dreaming up ourselves, each other, and the world we want to live in. We can’t let rationalism steal our dreams

quote:

The only logical time for abolition and decolonization is now.
Rather than spending time and energy worrying about whether our movements are rational, can we direct that time and energy towards recognizing our brilliance?
http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/03/why-rationalism-is-irrational/

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 3, 2016

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ClamdestineBoyster
Aug 15, 2015



"I am researching ways to assault high value targets and make it appear as a social norm" -op

gentle pete
Feb 21, 2015

by Nyc_Tattoo


sage

The Bananana
May 21, 2008

This is a metaphor, a Christian allegory. The fact that I have to explain to you that Jesus is the Warthog, and the Banana is drepanocytosis is just embarrassing for you.





ClamdestineBoyster posted:

"I am researching ways to assault high value targets and make it appear as a social norm" -op

Lol

SirEvelynTremble
Dec 25, 2013

FUCK YOU HITLER
STALINGRAD
ROFLMFAO


quote:

Rather than dismissing emotions or seeing them as a sign of a lack of objectivity, we need to engage with them. We need to understand that feelings, lived experiences, and psychology are absolutely important in activism and social justice.

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

Anyone who denies the necessity of a certain degree of pragmaticism in life stinks of extreme privilege.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

I thought all this goofy poo poo was an exaggeration by sarcastic assholes on the internet, but after hanging around a bunch of college kids for the last couple months, I can assure you that it is real. "Cis-sexist, heteronormative, oppression, emotional health, thin privilege, etc. etc. etc." And yes, they're all fat lesbians with purple hair. It's amazing.

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

- hi

wow no way

STABASS
Apr 18, 2009

I'll be the rollinbout


Fun Shoe

has anyone made a fremenist joke in a while

Applewhite
Aug 16, 2014

IN THE GRIM BARKNESS
OF THE FUTURE
THERE ARE ONLY DOGS



Nap Ghost

Sounds like a load of idiot bullshit that stupid people think and say, OP.

Honky Dong Country
Feb 11, 2015



The best reaction to this poo poo is to laugh and don't even stop laughing to listen to their next point. Just keep laughing until you're dead.

DoctorStrangelove
Jun 6, 2012

IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT MEIN FUHRER!



I don't think OP knows the difference between "objectivity" and "Objectivism."

lol Firefox says Objectivism is not a real word.

jBrereton
May 29, 2013


Grimey Drawer

Frosted Flake posted:

This is certainly a new way of directing the narrative. It's impossible to debate someone who sees objectivity or rationality as oppressive.
Kant made a career out of arguing about this exact thing 225 years ago, in response to people who wrote in the century before him.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


objectivism is taking a personal vow to make sure no one will ever take you seriously. despite the name it has nothing to do with objectivity.

Gaunab
Feb 13, 2012



GBS is slowly turning into reddit.


Oh well.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

by Pragmatica


DoctorStrangelove posted:

I don't think OP knows the difference between "objectivity" and "Objectivism."

lol Firefox says Objectivism is not a real word.

OP dropped the ball on that one.

the fart question
Mar 21, 2007



College Slice

i have come to the rational conclusion that the op put too much effort into that

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


gender illusionist posted:

i have come to the rational conclusion that the op put too much effort into that

he put so much effort in formatting and none into making an interesting thread

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


gender illusionist posted:

i have come to the rational conclusion that the op put too much effort into that

i have come to the rational conclusion that the op is both white as all get out and mentally handicapped

Mr. Pumroy
May 20, 2001



educated

stupid

DoctorStrangelove
Jun 6, 2012

IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT MEIN FUHRER!



gender illusionist posted:

i have come to the rational conclusion that the op put too much effort into that

Empirical evidence also points to the same conclusion.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


i hope this thread gets gas before it becomes even more boring

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

I am gently caressed by my SAnta


Fun Shoe

OP I think that the two people you quoted are probably not actually bemoaning rationalism. Though IDK what your actual position is cause... you just posted a lot of poo poo.

drunk dog
Apr 6, 2014

Resident Millennial


what in the gently caress is going on here

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number

Pillbug

SHISHKABOB posted:

OP I think that the two people you quoted are probably not actually bemoaning rationalism. Though IDK what your actual position is cause... you just posted a lot of poo poo.

the actual position is people say dumb things on the internet therefor everything tangentially related to those dumb e-people I disagree with is equally as dumb

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


drunk dog posted:

what in the gently caress is going on here

op quoted a bunch of text he wants people to make fun of, and quoted a lot of it, but didn't actually put any effort to say anything about the stuff himself

what the text op is quoted saying is that objectivism and rationalism may not actually be objective or rational if it comes out of a mess up system, which actually is true, but its kinda said in a really verbose and stupid way

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

by Pragmatica


ArbitraryC posted:

the actual position is people say dumb things on the internet therefor everything tangentially related to those dumb e-people I disagree with is equally as dumb

Exactly. If the ideas themselves can't be argued with, then they can at least be mocked.

Tone policing, and now claiming objectivity (oops) and rationality are oppressive shuts down any debate. That's absurd.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


basically the main lesson everyone should learn here is brevity is wit

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Frosted Flake posted:

Exactly. If the ideas themselves can't be argued with, then they can at least be mocked.

Tone policing, and now claiming objectivity (oops) and rationality are oppressive shuts down any debate. That's absurd.

you are so loving boring

SirEvelynTremble
Dec 25, 2013

FUCK YOU HITLER
STALINGRAD
ROFLMFAO


poopies

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


this is a comedy site

not a hey look at me i am awfully boring site op

drunk dog
Apr 6, 2014

Resident Millennial


PBS Newshour posted:

op quoted a bunch of text he wants people to make fun of, and quoted a lot of it, but didn't actually put any effort to say anything about the stuff himself

what the text op is quoted saying is that objectivism and rationalism may not actually be objective or rational if it comes out of a mess up system, which actually is true, but its kinda said in a really verbose and stupid way

it looked like a bunch of effort for some stupid nonsense

us vs also us
Jul 8, 2007

Hello! I hope you are having a nice day!

*steadfastly refuses to make a dominos.com account despite the obvious convenience and time it would save in the future*

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/10/black-american-cultural-appropriation/

this insanity right here.

yikes!
Jul 5, 2006




Soiled Meat

OP I stopped reading too early to figure out what your game is so all I have to say is shut the gently caress up and take it to reddit

thanks

SirEvelynTremble
Dec 25, 2013

FUCK YOU HITLER
STALINGRAD
ROFLMFAO


PBS Newshour posted:

this is a comedy site

not a hey look at me i am awfully boring site op

can't we look at this objectively?

AugmentedVision
Feb 17, 2011

by exmarx


cool and good posted:

OP I stopped reading too early to figure out what your game is so all I have to say is shut the gently caress up and take it to reddit

thanks

drunk dog
Apr 6, 2014

Resident Millennial


SirEvelynTremble posted:

can't we look at this objectively?

objectively awful, maybe

JiveHonky
May 12, 2001

by zen death robot


Grimey Drawer

xir? excuse me xir, xir seems to have pooped xirs trousers.

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AugmentedVision
Feb 17, 2011

by exmarx


like seriously how do people do this

their problem is that skeletons complain about poo poo that doesnt matter

so they spend hours doing research and putting together elaborate complaints about people complaining about poo poo that doesnt matter

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