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YeehawMcKickass
Jan 2, 2003

WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS
Last thread was a disappointment, but it had more to do with how standard ended up playing than anything anyone here did (seriously, barely 11 pages of stuff in six months while other iterations of the thread got to 40 in a full year) SOI looks to be impressively fun after the snoozefest that was BFZ, but the biggest thing we can take away from it is that four-color-good-stuff.dec is largely gone due to the rotation of the fetch lands eliminating perfect manabases. We’re back to two, maybe three, color decks.

I know I made the crack about Seige Rhino last thread, but the card wasn’t all that bad. Nowhere near as annoying to play against as something like Sphinx’s Revelation.

Before I get into the meat of the OP, I want to link something from ChannelFireball that’s worth reading: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-shadows-over-innistrad/

The summary on that is basically:
Sin Prodder is meh, Sorin is good.
The Thing In Ice needs about 23 instant/sorcery to reliably flip by around turn Six.
Delirium takes a bit of work to get, but it’s doable.
Duskwatch Recruiter needs about 23 other creatures in the deck to be reliable.
Triskadekaphobia is LOL, someone needs to win some games with this poo poo.

Some important things to note before you post your deck:
  • DO include what you're building your deck for, be it casual, FNM, or a Grand Prix. Also, mention if this is for a specific format (Standard, Extended, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Commander, Pauper, Theme Deck, etc.).
  • DO mention if your deck has a budget associated with it.
  • :siren:DO READ THIS ARTICLE BY CONLEY WOODS!:siren: Your deck and some of your choices are going to be questioned, and you're likely to feel insulted. We're not out to hurt your feelings and make you go all :smith: on us. Even some of the best deck builders get their work blown up by other people. You might even be ignored, don't take it personally.
  • If you're searching online for cards, I can't recommend using Wizard's website, Gatherer. It tends to be slow and difficult to use. Magiccards.info is a better bet.
  • For Sixty-Card constructed decks, please try to use deckstats or tappedout's deck building tools, and use the full embed code if you can. The links help make your deck pop off the page when scrolling.
  • For Commander/EDH decks, you can post them, but do remember there is a dedicated thread for this, and that you’re a horrible person. Use only a link to deckstats/tappedout if you do decide to post it here. If your deck is on MODO, go ahead and give us a screen shot of it.


Enough with the notes, on to some of the deck building basics.

Before you build:
  • Decide what your deck's win condition or conditions will be. Try to have a plan B when you can.
  • Decide how your deck will achieve that goal.
  • For competitive play, never exceed the 60-card minimum (99+general in commander).
  • Don't be afraid to net deck. It's not a bad thing. If there's a pre existing deck out there that does what you want to do, feel free to copy it. It's likely going to be optimized already. Star City Games keeps a list of all of the top decks from its events, as does Wizards in their event section.
  • If you don't want to build a pre-existing deck but want to use its archetype, still view the deck lists. That will provide an excellent starting point to build your mana base. This is the start of what's called, "Going Rouge".
  • Speaking of the Internet, consider using one of the deck building tools out there, such as https://www.deckstats.net and https://www.tappedout.net. Also, use something like magiccards.info to search out cards you may want to use. See the second post of the main discussion thread for more online resources.


Now that I've mentioned them...

Deck Archetypes
  • Aggressive; Hit them hard and fast. If you haven't won by turn four or five, you've probably already lost. Historically, these are Red, Green, and Black; but can exist in all colors. Examples include Red Deck Wins. Pure aggro decks tend to have low amounts of land, sometimes as few as 16 and rarely have utility lands.
  • Stompy: Rides the border of Aggro and Midrange. Usually appears to be an aggro shell with buffs. Examples would be SOM/INN R/G Aggro (because of swords buffs and having a bit of a late game) and Tempered Steel. Land count in Stompy decks tend to hover in the 21-23 range, sometimes include a couple of utility lands, and will often include some Ramp elements (usually mana producing creatures).
  • Midrange: A variable type of deck that can play the aggro role against control, or the control rol against aggro. Abzan decks from the standard we just rotated out of are the perfect example of midrange. Land count for midrange decks tends to hang in the 22-25 area with a decent amount of utility lands.
  • Control: Built to take the game long and outlast an opponent, usually through mass removal, card advantage and counter spells. This type of deck usually runs few actual threats. Historically, these decks are Blue based with White or Black. U/W control from RTR/THS and The Deck are examples of control. Control decks will run 25+ lands, and will include numerous utility lands.
  • Tempo-Control: This deck type blurs the line between Aggro and control by using tempo cards like Vapor Snag and other unsummon variants along with small, evasive beaters and other value cards to control the game. Recent examples being Caw-Blade from ZEN/SOM and Delver from SOM/INN
  • Ramp: Decks built to hit a certain point on their mana curve as fast a possible (ramping up through land search or mana producing creatures) then crushing their opposition before they can react to their massive threats. This archetype can suffer with out of order draws, (not drawing land search sorceries or mana producing creatures early, etc.) but tends the be extremely explosive. Valakut decks in late ALA/Zen and early ZEN/SOM and the various Wolf Run variants from SOM/INN are examples. Very rarely do Ramp decks run less than 25 lands, with upwards of 28 not being unheard of.
  • Combo: While combo isn't hugely prevalent in standard, it's quite frequent in modern, legacy, and vintage. These decks are generally non-interactive, and sometimes do nothing, until they go :ssj: and win in one fell swoop. The biggest recent example came from Rally the Ancestors with Collected Company and a good sacrifice outlet like Nantuko Husk, or the first major combo Channel/Fireball.

Next up, Building!

While you build:
  • Remember that consistent decks with a clear plan to victory (and a backup plan) win the most.
  • Mono-colored or two-colored decks tend to be the most consistent and least vulnerable to disruption. You can fan out to a third if the format's mana base allows it (KTK/BFZ manabases are going to be awesome for going three or more color. Not quite as good as INN/RTR with checks and shocks, or the rotations centered around Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, but very good still.)
  • You generally want somewhere around 22 to 26 lands in your deck, depending on format or archetype. Your Mana Base should generally skew similar to the amount of colored mana in your spells. More on this after this list.
  • Give this article by Alexander Shearer a read and check out the spreadsheet.
  • Be mindful of your Mana Curve. As an example, if you're playing an aggressive deck with the goal of simply going :zerg: at your opponent, your mana curve should terminate at a converted mana cost of NO HIGHER than four and the majority of your spells hovering around the CMC 2 range. There's no hard and fast rule for what a mana curve should look like. This is the 2010 Worlds top standard deck, note that the mana curve has a huge amount of things to do at CMC 1 and 2

I can't stress enough how much you have to consider your mana base.
Your forseeable manabase DTK/ORI/BFZ/OGW/SOI Standard –or- YOU’RE NOT PLAYING LEGACY ANYMORE, gently caress YOUR PERFECT MANA BASE:

Basic Lands: Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountian, Forest.

Wastes: Basic lands without a type that debuted in OGW. Only produce colorless mana. You can have as many of these in a constructed deck as you’d like. If you’re drafting, you have to draft them. THESE ROTATE OUT OF STANDARD WITH BFZ BLOCK.

Shadows Land Lands: Allied cycle of lands that ETBT unless you reveal a land with the type of one of the basics that produces that color. They play well with Battle Lands and will probably be about on par with Scars Fastlands for standard, which is to say they're better early game.

Battle Lands: These will be considerably less powerful than the last format, but still plenty playable. With no more real fetches, they're better late game.

Enemy Manlands: Lands that ETB Tapped but can have mana pumped into them to be turned into a creature until end of turn. They’re ok fixing and generally fairly good cards. U/R and B/W are probably the best of the bunch.

Enemy Painlands: Rare lands that enter the battlefield untapped and can be tapped for colorless, or one of two colors of mana from an enemy pair at the cost of 1 Damage. These and the M10 checklands tend to be the standard baseline for dual lands, though R&D tends to prefer the checks because of new players. After two consecutive printings they’re not hard to get a hold of, and even foils are relatively cheap.

ETBT Paired duals: Allied pairs in OGW, Enemy pairs in SOI. These are your baseline dual lands for the time being. They’re not pretty, but they’ll get the job done

Evolving Wilds: With the Fetches gone, this is the premiere fetching land. Delirium Decks will want this as a four of to reliably get a land in their graveyard.

Warped Landscape: Evolving wilds that produces colorless, but requires 2 mana to fetch.

Ally Encampment: Are you playing allies? Then this is for you.

Corrupted Crossroads: Are you playing standard Eldrazi? Then this may work in your deck.

Mirrorpool: An oddity that allows you to clone a spell or copy a creature for a cost. Also a colorless generator

Ruins of Oran-Rief: ETBT colorless generator with the ability to add a +1/+1 counter to a colorless creature that hit the field that turn. Works on Devoid creatures and Artifact creatures.

Sea Gate Wreckage: [B]THIS IS REPEATABLE CARD DRAW ON A LAND![/B] Sure you have to have no cards in hand to use it, but we’re in a format with madness.

Haven/Crucible of the Spirit Dragon: Does your deck run dragons in it or care about them? You probably want to run Haven as a 2 of to recur your rawr. Crucible isn’t quite as good unless you’re looking to ramp.

Westvale Abbey: There’s a lot going on with this card. It does produce colorless and for a lot of mana, it can get you a steady stream of 1/1 tokens. The last ability to transform it to Ormendahl, Profane Prince is what has causals going apeshit. Remains to be seen if this will be a constructed player, as the last time we had something like this it wasn’t good.

Foundry of the Counsuls/Spawning Bed: Colorless lands that allow you to pay mana and sacrifice them for token creatures. Foundry if you want fliers, Spawning if you want sacrificial 1/1’s for mana generation or whatever the gently caress.

Mage-Ring Network: A colorless storage land. Similar to Crucible of the Spirit Dragon but no rawr Requirement.

Rouge’s Passage: Wasn’t horrible last time it was in standard, but not great. Lets you spend mana to make a creature unblockable. Generally best as a 1-of.

Sanctum of Ugin: Colorless fetching for when you cast a big colorless creature. Potentially more useful in Modern with the banning of Eye of Ugin

Shrine of the Forsaken Gods: This is mainly to get you from infinity mana to beyond. It’s a monster once you’ve got seven lands.

Holdout Settlement: This is functionally a Springleaf Drum land with the ability to tap for colorless when you have no creatures.

Crumbling Vestige: ETBT, but give you a color when it hits, then goes to producing colorless. Ended up being excellent in limited, but my local metagame hasn’t shown much use for it.

Unknown Shores: Taps for colorless or filters one color to another. Kind of a last resort land in constructed but was excellent in BFZ/OGW limited.

Drownyard Temple: Taps for colorless and you can pay 3 to bring it back from the graveyard to the field tapped. SOI has a lot of self milling and the Delirium ability, so this may be useful in standard.

Blighted Lands: A cycle of colorless producers that can be sacrificed for a minor effect for 4 or 5 cmc. Usefulness depends on what kind of deck you’re building. Blue, Black, and Red are much better than White and Green in a vacuum, but who knows what ones will be the best when the cards hit standard.

Fertile Thicket, Looming Spires, Sandstone Bridge, Skyline Cascade, Mortuary Mire: Zendikar and World wake each had a cycle of spell lands that ETB tapped but generated a small effect. These are another iteration of this cycle, and they all seem to be relatively effective (though the white one isn’t as good as the red one).

A special note: If you’re opening BFZ for any reason, you may run into an Expedition land (full art foil). This can be any of the Ravnica Shocks, Fetches, or the new Battle lands. If you open one of these in a draft or sealed event, you can use them. Only the allied Battle Lands are Standard legal. OGW has expeditions as well, but none of those cards are standard legal.

After it's built:
  • Test it out a little bit! You can even use the hand generators on deckstats.net to get a feel for what kind of opening hands you're going to run into. Goldfishing (solitare play) helps as well, but if you have friends or Magic Online, go to it.
  • If the deck seems like it might have some merit, post it here! Use the deckstats.net or tappedout.net builders. (I recommend deckstats, as it will give you the proper BB code with links to individual cards on magiccards.info as well as all the mana curve data and even pricing.)
  • Take the advice you get here, and make your first tweak. Only change one thing about a deck at a time so you understand the changes you've made function in relation to your deck's previous incarnation.
  • Test it out again! Then continue to make your changes.
  • Play your deck against every kind of deck you can. If you're going to a tournament, build a gauntlet of expected decks and play as many games as possible against those decks.
  • Don't forget your sideboard!
  • And don't forget to play post-sideboarded games!

One other thing to note when you're building your deck is that there's a good chance you're going to have a "pet card" you want to try to shoehorn into every deck you build. I recently tried to jam Tymaret, the Murder King into whatever I could. Be aware of this card and make absolutely SURE it fits into your deck.

Alternatively, the OP of this MTG Salvation thread does an excelent job of going over all of this.

Some questions you may ask:

Can I post the full list of my Commander/EDH deck?
Use a link to deckstats/tappedout for your Commander/EDH Decks
DON’T POST FULL LISTS OF COMMANDER/EDH DECKS
Or just post it in the Commander thread and know that you’re a horrible person.

How many of each card do I want in my deck?
Here's a good way of looking at it (this excludes basic lands):
Four of a specific card: I want this card in my opening hand and/or want to see as many copies of it as possible.
Three of a specific card: Having this in my opening hand isn't bad, but I generally only want to see one or two copies of it during the course of a game (Legendary Creatures, Planeswalkers).
Two of a specific card: I'd like to see this card on occasion, but never really want it in my opening hand.
One of a specific card: I NEVER want to see more than one of this card or something I'll be searching for with a tutor effect or drawing through massive amounts of draw. (Singletons are often a deck win condition in vintage or legacy, and frequently a win condition in a combo deck.)

Why does my deck keep getting slaughtered by this other type of deck?
Your deck may have an inherent weakness to that deck. As an example, a creature ramp deck can be stalled out horribly by a mono-red burn deck. A deck with no flyers can be completely out of luck if your opponent drops a large flyer like a Baneslayer Angel. That mono-red burn deck has a huge weakness to life gain and shroud/hexproof creatures. You have three options to deal with this. First, you can make main deck changes. Second, you can dedicate slots in your sideboard to shore up this match. Third, you can just accept that your deck is bad against that type of deck.

What's a sideboard?
That's 15 extra cards you can use to modify your deck between games in a tournament. You can use this to solidify your deck against a bad match up, or transform your deck into something else. It's a good idea to consider your sideboard options in parallel to your main 60.

How do I tune my deck for my local metagame, what about my sideboard?
Well, thats a bit of a doozy and specialized. You'd need to tell us what your expected metagame is, then we can help you.

I want to build a mill de--
Wizards does a good job of printing stuff that mills. Especially in SOI with things like Startled awake. I have news for you: Mill decks are still bad. I’m not saying they’re not fun and can’t catch an event with its pants down like it did over the summer, but they’re a slow burn or combo deck at best. They lack consistency and are open to just being run down by even midrange decks. TurboMill from LOR/ALA is probably the closest, most recent example of a consistent mill deck. It took the rise of 5-color-control for it to be a player though. And none of that mattered once Seismic Swans came around.

Here’s the thing about mill with SOI: You want to be turning the smaller mill spells at yourself to enable delirium, zombie tribal shenanigans, and any kind of recursion things.

Why did you rip my awesome deck to shreds? It was the best thing in the world! You have no idea what you're talking about!
While there's a decent chance that someone commenting on your deck may not have the best deck building sense (including me), the same holds true for you. Also, I warned you this would happen, and even gave you this link earlier. Put your ego aside, we're trying to help.

Hay guyz! I just got given a bunch of new cards from someone and I want to post my deck list. Should I do it?"
JerryLee put it pretty succinctly in the first thread, but I'll sum it up here: Probably not. If your card pool is really tiny what you can put together isn't going to be of much interest to us, and you're likely to be ignored. If you want to list out a fully fleshed out deck (include cards you want to acquire for it) BASED ON what you currently have, or get some suggestions on what to look for, that's fine. If you want to save some money, you can buy from other goons!

My deck didn't get commented on. :smith:
This is likely to happen for any number of reasons. More often than not this tends to happen for Legacy and Vintage decks posted, but don’t worry if you want to talk older formats, Go here and post the list. Another reason your deck may have been ignored is because you didn't specify what format it's for and/or your budget. You could have also posted in the middle of a fury of decks being posted and it was just missed. Don't take it personally, this just a single thread in a sub-forum of a sub-forum that's doesn't exactly have a huge amount of traffic.

That said, If you want to get competitive, don't hesitate to go to Star City Games top deck lists from their open series and use that as a place to start on the type of deck you want to use.


I'd like to remind everyone to INCLUDE WHAT FORMAT YOU'RE BUILDING YOUR DECK FOR! The format a deck is built for is key to getting help.

If you'd like to get a hold of me in regards to something with the thread, talk Wizard Poker Deck building, or berate me for being a jackass, feel free to PM. I might actually get back to you on that.

League Memberships start after the line below. Free Moon Socks for all members provided by Tamiyo and her clues.

YeehawMcKickass fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Apr 8, 2016

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Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!
Reposting my Standard BW Pile to get some feedback:

Land (24)
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
8x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey

Enchantment (2)
2x Dead Weight

Creature (13)
2x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Kindly Stranger
3x Priest of the Blood Rite
4x Wasteland Strangler

Planeswalker (4)
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Sorcery (10)
3x Declaration in Stone
1x Languish
2x Read the Bones
4x Transgress the Mind

Instant (7)
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Secure the Wastes
3x Ultimate Price

Mostly wondering if there's anything I should cut/add/swap to be more consistent. Been goldfishing it on tappedout and it seems pretty decent, as soon as I get eldrazi displacer with any ETB it can pretty much run itself forever. I kinda wanna find a spot for hangarbacks since I have 4, but I have no idea where they go.

Also, what should my sideboard look like? I am so bad about sideboarding.

Cernunnos
Sep 2, 2011

ppbbbbttttthhhhh~
You should probably re-write that bit on Expeditions since the fetches aren't legal anymore and there are now more Expeditions in OGW (none of which are Standard Legal). :v:

bhsman
Feb 10, 2008

by exmarx
I love how MURDERGOATS lives on in the OP. :3:

I don't know if I'll participate in this Standard, but it won't be for lack of deck variety. If someone can find a cheap-but-effective mono-red deck for me to take a look at, I may take the plunge.

Deckit
Sep 1, 2012

I'm eyeing the U/B Madness deck Kenji posted up here. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/14-shadows-over-innistrad-decks-by-kenji-tsumura Was originally gonna do U/W spirits but that looks like fun. :3:

YeehawMcKickass
Jan 2, 2003

WE WELCOME THE OPPRESSORS
I'm solidly on an Eldrazi flavor of some sort. Either mono-u or mono-r.

I've tested mono blue and done well with it in events; I don't have Chandra's for Mono-r, but thopter engineer, habgarback, and mom/dad make the deck play very different from mono blue.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
A+ thread title.

To shift gears a bit, apparently the closest store to me is doing a Pauper FNM tonight, and part of me wants to build a deck to be ready for the next one they do. Does anyone have a good rundown of some of the premier archetypes for the format? I feel like this came up in the previous Brewhaus.

E: Going through my Deckbox I noticed I had an Izzet Blitz list saved from a while back-
Deck: Izzet Blitz

//Lands
8 Island
8 Mountain
2 Swiftwater Cliffs

//Spells
3 Apostle's Blessing
2 Artful Dodge
2 Assault Strobe
4 Dispel
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Manamorphose
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Ponder
2 Slip Through Space
3 Temur Battle Rage

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Nivix Cyclops

//Sideboard
2 Annul
3 Electrickery
2 Magma Spray
3 Pyroblast
1 Temur Battle Rage
4 Vapor Snag

Display deck statistics

Thoughts?

C-Euro fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Apr 8, 2016

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
Reposting the Dredgevine list! :v:

4 Bloodghast
2 Fatestitcher
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
4 Gravecrawler
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Vengevine

4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
1 Life from the Loam

1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
3 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize

Frozen_flame
Feb 14, 2012

Press A to Protect Earth!
I had a really dumb idea based on the thread title. Part of it is also the fact I am a greedy gently caress and want to jam GIdeon, Chandra and Kalitas into the same deck.

Deck: Jace's Lovers

//Main
4 Mindwrack Demon
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Oath of Gideon
4 Roast
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dead Weight
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Foreboding Ruins
2 Smoldering Marsh
1 Plains
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Swamp
3 Mountain

//Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Fiery Impulse
4 Flaying Tendrils
1 Declaration in Stone
4 To the Slaughter

Display deck statistics

Hobojim
Oct 31, 2011


I haven't playing in quite a while, but the GF and I are slowly easing our way back in. I won a prerelease on the weekend but other than that hadn't really played in almost two years, when I was regularly playing Modern. I have a few janky modern decks still put together, but the one I'd like suggestions on improving is this one:

Deck: Venser Control

//Lands
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Halimar Depths
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
6 Plains
4 Temple of Enlightenment

//Spells
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Into the Roil
4 Mana Leak
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Swan Song
4 Venser, the Sojourner

//Creatures
3 Blade Splicer
2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
3 Restoration Angel
4 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Wall of Omens
2 Omenspeaker

//Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Revoke Existence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spellskite
2 Path to Exile

Display deck statistics

I wanted a way to run ensnaring bridge mainboard and not have it be irritating to play around, so this is what I did. Venser is definitely a pet card for me, full disclosure. The meta I was using it in was heavily weighted towards aggro, and this deck did pretty well against aggressive decks that were not Affinity. The gameplan is survive on the backs of Blade Splicers, Omenspeakers, Wall of Omens and Supreme Verdicts / disruption until you can either shell up behind Venser / Stonehorn Dignitary / Ensnaring Bridge and get to Venser's emblem, or win with Restoration Angel and Blade Splicer value using Venser's -1 for evasion if needed. If you have the Ensnaring Bridge out, and lack of consistent card draw means you probably don't have a large hand, you can blink it with Venser to attack and have it come back for their turn.

Now, having not played in a while and not knowing much about the way modern has progressed, I'm sure it could use some updates. I plan on using it for FNM but don't know how the meta looks anymore. Don't worry about budget, I'll trade towards whatever I need and have a lot of trade potential.

Currently, I'd like to add Celestial Colonnades, probably two of them switched in for temples to give some more late-game threats. I've tested Snapcasters, but I'd probably have to change quite a bit about the deck to make them more worth running. Recurring Verdicts and counterspells is fun and all, but generally late-game you've got bridges and / or stonehorns to keep you safe.

Sideboard is a mess and will likely be drastically changed once I know the meta, this is just what I had before I stopped playing. I'll probably want more artifact removal because Torpor Orb is a problem, and if I could find anybody willing to part with Hurkyl's Recall I'd put a few in there as well. Affinity is not a deck I can usually survive long enough against and Stony Silence can only do so much. I also used to have problems against Jund decks running things like Thoughtseize, Lilianna and Deathrite Shaman, but I don't know if that's still played.

Thoughts?

bhsman
Feb 10, 2008

by exmarx

AlternateNu posted:

Reposting the Dredgevine list! :v:

What do you think of the 1/1 Menace vampire for R from SoI?

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003

Pillbug
I think there's potential for a U/W skies midrange deck, but I'm not sure how to put it together. This is a list of the cards I'm considering:

U/W sky

4x rattlchains
4x always watching
X archangel of tithes
X Vryn wingmare
X scrapskin drake (???)
X tower Geist (???)
4x thunderclap Wyvern
4x dragonlord ojutai
2x new Jace
2x Gideon
X ojutai's command
X anafenza Kin tree spirit
X silk wrap
X icefall regent (???)
X silumgar's scorn
X stasis snare
1x linvala
X reflector Mage (????)
X bygone bishop
X declaration in stone
X stitchwing skaab (???)
X uninvited Geist

I mean there's a lot of garbage cards here (I was just searching by set and finding all cards that fit the deck). But rattlechains, always watching, thunderclap Wyvern, and ojutai seems like a really good build around me package. It also gives you 8 anthem effects for your fliers, 4 of which are bodies. Some Gideon's add more anthems. Vryn wingmare seems okay.

The removal package seems really good in the deck with silk wrap, snare, and declaration. Reflector mage is reflector Mage.

Who has thoughts?

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



i'm heading to bed soon but don't play scrapskin drake because it's not even particularly good in limited

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003

Pillbug

Elyv posted:

i'm heading to bed soon but don't play scrapskin drake because it's not even particularly good in limited

This is fact.

here is a slightly more tuned bit of guesswork

U/W sky

4x rattlchains
4x archangel of tithes
3X Vryn wingmare
4x thunderclap Wyvern
4x dragonlord ojutai
2x Gideon
4x reflector Mage
4x bygone bishop

4x declaration in stone
3x stasis snare
3x silk wrap
4x always watching

Sideboard:
counter magic?
Anafenza?



Who has thoughts?

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

bhsman posted:

What do you think of the 1/1 Menace vampire for R from SoI?

The jury is still out for me. The best thing to compare him to are other discard outlets the deck runs which typically includes Faithless Looting and Lotleth Troll. Basically nothing will beat Faithless Looting since it has flashback, digs deeper, and can be used with no other cards in hand. (The trade off being that he's a creature that helps trigger Vengevine.)

The comparison to Lotleth Troll is a little more nuanced. Neonate can come down turn 1 and can immediately trigger a dredge which is phenomenal. But it is not a zombie, so it doesn't turn on Gravecrawler in the mid-/late-game. And it is worth only a single discard. One of the big advantages to Troll is that not only does it give you a recurring discard outlet, it also provides reach and psuedo-evasion through its Trample and Regenerate abilities. And it is generally a better top deck late game because you can just drop it, cast Gravecrawler out of the grave and suddenly have a board full of killer plant elementals. (Which reminds me, why isn't Vengevine a Plant Elemental?)

It may become a thing where the deck goes more Red than in the past, and Neonate replaces Satyr Wayfinder or Grisly Salvage in the classic list, though, that obviously comes with the risk of missing land drops which would necessitate the inclusion of more lands in the deck. It would allow a bigger commitment to Flamewake Phoenix, though. (A personal favorite of mine, and something I run as a one-of in the Jund version of the deck.)

Honestly, moreso than with a lot of combo decks, Dredgevine requires a lot of balancing since it requires three parts: Discard outlets, milling outlets, and threats. This is why I'm more interested in running Stichwing Skaab, actually, since it fills two of those rolls naturally.

Cernunnos
Sep 2, 2011

ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

Mezzanon posted:

This is fact.

here is a slightly more tuned bit of guesswork

U/W sky

4x rattlchains
4x archangel of tithes
3X Vryn wingmare
4x thunderclap Wyvern
4x dragonlord ojutai
2x Gideon
4x reflector Mage
4x bygone bishop

4x declaration in stone
3x stasis snare
3x silk wrap
4x always watching

Sideboard:
counter magic?
Anafenza?



Who has thoughts?

Drop the Bygone Bishops for some maindeck counters and your probably set. A little disruption can go a long way and the Bishops just aren't good enough here IMO.

You can easily lock up a game with just Archangel/Ojutai + Always Watching so being able to protect that will put you in a good place. The Wingmares will do some of that but having a hard counter to the opponents out is always pretty good.

You could probably trade out the Rattlechains too but having Flash is enough reason to keep him.

Soul Glo
Aug 27, 2003

Just let it shine through
Anybody got any good and/or fun BR Madness lists? If you've seen or are building any, how often does Drana show up in them? I've got partial pieces for a deck except for her, and am wondering if she'll be vital at all and need to be bought before any kind of spike or if Olivia'll be the main three drop with something like Vampire Envoy alongside her.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Soul Glo posted:

Anybody got any good and/or fun BR Madness lists? If you've seen or are building any, how often does Drana show up in them? I've got partial pieces for a deck except for her, and am wondering if she'll be vital at all and need to be bought before any kind of spike or if Olivia'll be the main three drop with something like Vampire Envoy alongside her.

Early reports have claimed that, despite being very obvious, RB Madness/Vamps is bad

SCG starts today so I guess we'll see

Soul Glo
Aug 27, 2003

Just let it shine through

Elyv posted:

Early reports have claimed that, despite being very obvious, RB Madness/Vamps is bad

SCG starts today so I guess we'll see

That's why I included the "or"!

But if it can't win at all, I guess that wouldn't be very fun. People in the main thread were talking about Vampires being much better than Werewolves. What's actually supposed to be good this Standard?

e: I hope it's GW Humans, I have pulled two Sigarda's :toot:

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Soul Glo posted:

That's why I included the "or"!

But if it can't win at all, I guess that wouldn't be very fun. People in the main thread were talking about Vampires being much better than Werewolves. What's actually supposed to be good this Standard?

e: I hope it's GW Humans, I have pulled two Sigarda's :toot:

People don't really know yet, the SCG happening currently is the first big tournament

fwiw I don't see how there can be a werewolf deck, although I haven't looked at the cards closely. Also, Sigarda is very likely to be mediocre at best even if GW Humans is a real deck, since the standards for 5 drops that don't protect themselves or provide immediate value are very high, and I don't think Sigarda is a Baneslayer Angel (although I guess caveat that I haven't played Standard in years)

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Humans will basically just be Wx aggro with Thalia's Lieutenant if it's a thing.

Jimmy4400nav
Apr 1, 2011

Ambassador to Moonlandia
Angelic Tutelage

I made some tweeks to the angelic tutelage deck I've been fiddling around with. Sadly MTGO beta hasn't been working for me so I havn't gotten any real tests in yet.

Enchantment (22)

4x Oath of Jace
3x Pacifism
3x Quarantine Field
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
2x Starfield of Nyx
4x Stasis Snare

Instant (3)
3x Immolating Glare

Land (25)

4x Blighted Cataract
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Island
5x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream

Sorcery (10)
4x Declaration in Stone
4x Pore Over the Pages
2x Startled Awake

Sideboard (15)

4x Negate
3x Ojutai's Command
3x Planar Outburst
2x Sphinx of the Final Word
3x Suppression Bonds

I moved planar outburst to the sideboard and mainboarded quarantine field in. The plan in in the event I'm playing against a arggro deck or on that pulls deep into hexproof, I can swap out the field for the outburst. I really like quarantine field since it lets me target specific things. annoying creature, usually (assuming no hexproof), enchantments? Yes. artifacts? Yes. Planeswalkers? Yes. While it can't really "sweep" until later game, it does give me more options for removal in the early game. I also brought in Declaration in Stone as a good early game removal and token sweeper. Even giving my opponent clues isn't too bad for me since them drawing more cards is a partial win condition for this deck. I also brought the number of starfield's of Nyx down to two since I have to be careful with it, if its second clause is activated the all my enchantments are vulnerable to mass removal.

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003

Pillbug

Cernunnos posted:

Drop the Bygone Bishops for some maindeck counters and your probably set. A little disruption can go a long way and the Bishops just aren't good enough here IMO.

You can easily lock up a game with just Archangel/Ojutai + Always Watching so being able to protect that will put you in a good place. The Wingmares will do some of that but having a hard counter to the opponents out is always pretty good.

You could probably trade out the Rattlechains too but having Flash is enough reason to keep him.

Yeah I think I was just trying to get too cute with spirit synergy with the bishop.

Counter package: dispel, negate, or silumgars scorn? Scorn has a way bigger theoretical upside, but I only have 4 dragons in the list? Ojutai's command?

I think rattlechains is good enough to stay in the deck. It's good pressure early, and can be flashed in in response to an edict to protect an ojutai in lieu of counter spells

Cernunnos
Sep 2, 2011

ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

Mezzanon posted:

Yeah I think I was just trying to get too cute with spirit synergy with the bishop.

Counter package: dispel, negate, or silumgars scorn? Scorn has a way bigger theoretical upside, but I only have 4 dragons in the list? Ojutai's command?

I think rattlechains is good enough to stay in the deck. It's good pressure early, and can be flashed in in response to an edict to protect an ojutai in lieu of counter spells

Probably Negate in the main and some number of Dispel in the side. Or maybe Clash of Wills instead? You'll have to try things out to see what works best.

I wouldn't really touch Scorn since you don't have enough dragons to make it always Counterspell though.

Iucounu
May 12, 2007


I've been tweaking this brew since the last thread and I think I've got it somewhat consistent. I need to play test it against other decks, I've just been testing out the draws on tappedout.net.

Unhappily Ever After

This deck has one goal, which is to get finishers into the graveyard and land Ever After to get them out on or shortly after turn 6. Ideally one of the two is Dragonlord Kolaghan, in order to smash face with haste for 16 or 17. To facilitate this goal there is a ton of card draw and discard.

Finishers:

4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Sidisi, Undead Vizier (also great to tutor for Ever After or a 6th land on turn 5 if you need it)
2 Void Winnower
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Value blockers/discard outlets:

4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Pale Rider of Trostad
4 Salvage Drone

Card advantage and discard:

3 Catalog
3 Oath of Jace
3 Pieces of the Puzzle

Of course:

4 Ever After

Land:

4 Sunken Hollow
11 Swamp
8 Island

The goal is to essentially stay alive until the combo can go off. I'm not sure how fast new standard is going to be. I've flirted with the idea of adding removal but I worry about slowing down the combo.

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Iucounu posted:

I've been tweaking this brew since the last thread and I think I've got it somewhat consistent. I need to play test it against other decks, I've just been testing out the draws on tappedout.net.

Unhappily Ever After

This deck has one goal, which is to get finishers into the graveyard and land Ever After to get them out on or shortly after turn 6. Ideally one of the two is Dragonlord Kolaghan, in order to smash face with haste for 16 or 17. To facilitate this goal there is a ton of card draw and discard.

Finishers:

4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Sidisi, Undead Vizier (also great to tutor for Ever After or a 6th land on turn 5 if you need it)
2 Void Winnower
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Value blockers/discard outlets:

4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Pale Rider of Trostad
4 Salvage Drone

Card advantage and discard:

3 Catalog
3 Oath of Jace
3 Pieces of the Puzzle

Of course:

4 Ever After

Land:

4 Sunken Hollow
11 Swamp
8 Island

The goal is to essentially stay alive until the combo can go off. I'm not sure how fast new standard is going to be. I've flirted with the idea of adding removal but I worry about slowing down the combo.

Why not play Corpse Churn instead of Oath of Jace?

Iucounu
May 12, 2007


ThePeavstenator posted:

Why not play Corpse Churn instead of Oath of Jace?

Oath of Jace helps me find Ever After, helps prevent mana screw and flood, and helps me dump the right fatties into the graveyard.

e: I have already made a couple changes, though. I took out the Salvage Drones and one Kolaghan and added 3 Call the Bloodlines and 2 Elusive Tormentors. I was seeing multiples of Kolaghan too frequently and the Calls add chump blockers and repeatable discard and the Tormentors help turns 4 and 5 when I've got nothing else.

Iucounu fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Apr 10, 2016

Isen
Jun 2, 2013
I've got a deck somewhat similar to Iucounu's I've been thinking about for fnm / game day that I could use some help with. The basic idea is to play some removal and cycle through the deck early game and around the 4th land start playing threats. If the threats die just bring them back. Jace lets me replay removal and reanimation. Running a lot of languish since it seems pretty vulnerable to stuff that goes wide and pretty much everything in this deck survives it, even dark dwellers if they've been reanimated. The sideboard is mostly garbage based off of fear of all the abbeys I faced during prerelease. It seems ok so far but I haven't tested it much other than against a few friends decks and theoretical draws on tappedout. Just looking for feedback from people that know better than me. I think the curve is kind of high but maybe that's ok since aggro is not quite as fast as it was?

I'm not running 4 Jaces because I only have 2. Other than running 4 of them I'm open to suggestions on changing anything around. Seems pretty fun so far but is there something better I could do here or am I wasting my time?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/reanimaniacs-3/

Land (24)
4x Choked Estuary
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Foreboding Ruins
3x Island
3x Mountain
2x Smoldering Marsh
2x Sunken Hollow
4x Swamp


Enchantment (4)
4x Oath of Jace

Creature (14)
1x Dragonlord Kolaghan
2x Geralf's Masterpiece
3x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3x Hangarback Walker
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
3x Mindwrack Demon

Sorcery (11)
2x Duress
1x Ever After
3x Languish
3x Necromantic Summons
2x Ruinous Path

Instant (5)
3x Fiery Temper
2x Kolaghan's Command

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard (15)
3x Act of Treason
2x Crumble to Dust
3x Dispel
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
3x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Just the Wind

Auralsaurus Flex
Aug 3, 2012
Iucounu, I feel like you're a little light on lands if you want to be hitting Ever After as soon as you can. And while I do appreciate the spicy Kolaghan inclusion, I feel like all of the other reanimator decks I've seen are too slow and grindy or aren't janky enough for my taste.

So instead, here's my first pass at something trying to win with Triskaidekaphobia in Standard.

Deck: The Triskaidek

//Lands
4 Foreboding Ruins
10 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
6 Swamp

//Spells
3 Alms of the Vein
2 Avacyn's Judgment
2 Burn from Within
2 Dark Petition
4 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
1 Reality Hemorrhage
1 Touch of Moonglove
4 Triskaidekaphobia
4 Twin Bolt

//Creatures
3 Insolent Neonate
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
3 Village Messenger

//Sideboard
2 Butcher's Glee
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Molten Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Tainted Remedy
2 Touch of Moonglove

The sideboard can probably use some work, but the deck seems like it could be fun and might pull off a few wins here and there. With plenty of variable and chunk burn options available, it feels like it has some nice flexibility in counting to seven exactly while still keeping speed in mind. Menace creatures & Touch of Moonglove may be too cute, so the 'gloves may need to come  off  out at some point. There's probably a home for them in a slower, more creature-heavy version along with Blazing Hellhound, but this is not that deck. And because the deck is so reliant on a single card, I've included 4 tutors to go find the win con – or another critical spell – should the need arise. Everything's pretty cheap, so I'll probably end up putting something along these lines together sometime before game day.

I'm curious to see if anyone has any other brews featuring Triskaidekaphobia and what other people think of this one. Hot takes on how to handle painlands welcome. (Side in a bunch of Crumble to Dust? Switch game plan to full burn? Quietly weep to self?)

Soul Glo
Aug 27, 2003

Just let it shine through
I pulled a second Gitrog Monster today, and I can't NOT play with him, so I made a casual standard deck that's capable of and uses delirium. It ain't perfect, but this one's for kitchen table funsies anyhow.

4 Groundskeeper
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Deathcap Cultivator
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Heir of Falkenrath/Heir to the Night
2 Kindly Stranger/Demon-Possessed Witch
2 The Gitrog Monster

4 Dead Weight
4 Grotesque Mutation
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Seek the Wilds

6 Swamp
8 Forest
2 Foul Orchard
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Evolving Wilds

I went with Dead Weight over better removal to help hit delirium which turns Deathcap Cultivator's deathtouch on, Kindly Stranger's transform-to-destroy-a-creature on, and most importantly lets me tutor up a Gitrog with Traverse the Ulvenwald. If all that fails, I can still bash with Tireless Tracker and Heir to the Night.

Excited for my horrific frog future :getin:

MoreLikeTen
Oct 21, 2012

The farmer's mistake was believing he had any control over his life.
Do people see much potential in a confront the unknown / green clues deck? I like the pool of cheap green investigate creatures, and I feel like confront could push things over the edge, maybe combined with second harvest?

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

MoreLikeTen posted:

Do people see much potential in a confront the unknown / green clues deck? I like the pool of cheap green investigate creatures, and I feel like confront could push things over the edge, maybe combined with second harvest?

I would say no. Become Immense/Temur Battle-Rage became pretty bad once people packed some instant-speed removal to deal with it and that had less of a setup cost than flooding your side of the battlefield with clue tokens does.

MoreLikeTen
Oct 21, 2012

The farmer's mistake was believing he had any control over his life.

ThePeavstenator posted:

I would say no. Become Immense/Temur Battle-Rage became pretty bad once people packed some instant-speed removal to deal with it and that had less of a setup cost than flooding your side of the battlefield with clue tokens does.

Sounds about right. It's pretty much all I can scrape together though, so I'll try it anyway and report back

Something Else
Dec 27, 2004

to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022
Either GW or GU could probably work for a Confront the Unknown deck. White gives you access to the guy who can give humans double-strike, Angelic Purge, and various investigators. Blue gives you evasive guys, Erdwal Illuminator, and hexproofing. It would be worth trying out either option, I think.

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003

Pillbug
I'm currently testing with:

3x stratus dancer
4x rattlechains
3x Vryn wingmare
4x reflector Mage
4x thunderclap wyvern
3x archangel of tithes
3x dragonlord Ojutai

4x always watching
3x declaration in stone
3x stasis snare
2x Gideon, ally of zenikar

4x port town
4x prairie stream
1x rogues passage
8x plains
7x island


Considering the following:

- adding Ojutai number 4
- cutting Gideon for negate


Still needs more testing, but it's super fun.


Sideboard contains negates and board wipes right now.


Edit: I feel like this is the deck that wants tragic arrogance as its sweeper. Board wiping but leaving an always watching and an ojutai on your side of the board feels pretty good.

Mezzanon fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Apr 13, 2016

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:
I'll throw my hat in the ring again for my version of the UW build:

Deck: Ojutithes

ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Apr 14, 2016

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:
While I'm at it here's a Mono-Black build I'm considering as well:

Deck: Mono-Black Zombies

ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Apr 14, 2016

Boco_T
Mar 12, 2003

la calaca tilica y flaca
If anyone's looking for a funsies/starter Standard deck or just wants something for Game Day that doesn't cost anything, here's a deck that got 3rd in a day 0 IQ this past weekend:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399751

Daniel Riley posted:

Creatures (25)
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Kor Bladewhirl
4 Stone Haven Outfitter
4 Weapons Trainer
2 Firemantle Mage
3 Lantern Scout
4 Resolute Blademaster

Spells (13)
4 Bone Saw
1 Stoneforge Masterwork
4 Captain's Claws
4 Stasis Snare

Lands (22)
4 Ally Encampment
7 Mountain
11 Plains

Sideboard (10)
2 Expedite
1 Fiery Impulse
4 Hedron Blade
3 Mighty Leap
I'd recommend changing the manabase to
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Ally Encampment
4 Mountain
10 Plains

But that still only gives you 14 sources for that Stasis Snare, which is really pushing it (you want 16 to be able to cast it 90% of the time by turn 5)

I'd also recommend coming up with 5 more sideboard cards.

Soothing Cacophony
Sep 29, 2009
So after trying to make an Erebos's Titan deck work forever, the thought of this deck struck me and I went with it. This is the janky poo poo I'm probably playing for the next 6 months.

Deck: GW Aurora

//Lands
2 Blighted Woodland
3 Evolving Wilds
16 Forest
4 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage

//Spells
3 Explosive Vegetation
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Nissa's Renewal
4 Retreat to Emeria
4 Retreat to Kazandu
2 Secure the Wastes
3 The Great Aurora

//Creatures
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Jaddi Offshoot
2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker

//Sideboard
3 Gaea's Revenge
1 Jaddi Offshoot
2 Clip Wings
2 Conclave Naturalists
2 Orbs of Warding
4 Lambholt Pacifist
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

Display deck statistics

I loving love this deck. It's stupid, but fun stupid. If you can weather the initial storm and get a Retreat or two up and start casting Nissa's Renewals, the deck actually feels ridiculously powerful. Between Jaddi Offshoot, Retreat to Kazandu and Nissa's Renewal it gains a poo poo load of life, giving you the time to either make a ridiculous board state with Retreats/Secure. If things end up too hairy or you run out of gas otherwise, you get to cast Aurora to reset the game, get a bunch more land and start over, hopefully drawing Retreats/Secure to play out and go on the offensive. Red could be another splash choice as going directly to the face with a Fireball would be nice, as would casting DL Atarka.

Aggro is rough, Negate is rough, and hand-attack can be rough, but none are totally unbeatable. Winning with it is just so loving satisfying and it happens way more than I expected it to. I can't help but feel like I'm not using the white splash to the fullest effect, still. Can't wait to take this pile to Game Day.

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Roshambo
Jan 18, 2010
http://deckstats.net/decks/47158/470434-sin-prodder/en

3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Sin Prodder
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Fiery Temper
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
2 Avacyn's Judgment
2 Bloodmad Vampire
24 Mountain


This is my first attempt at building a deck. It's budget, and I don't expect it to win any tournaments. I like the interaction between Sin Prodder, Dark-Dwellers, Firecraft, and Fiery Temper, and the Youths. Second part of the deck is to get discard outlets to allow for madness Insolent Neonates, Bloodseeker, Tormenting Voice. I am on the fence about Falkenreath Gorger, Bloodmad Vampire and Avacyns Judgement. I also might have too many lands.

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