|
All right, so. I've come across something in the correspondence of Robert Frost that nobody else seems to have noticed; the other day I sent a letter to a Frost scholar with whom I was once briefly acquainted, but he probably won't ever respond, given his general ferociousness and his apparent dislike of me in particular; I have no other connection to mainstream academic scholarship beyond the aforementioned person, and no one else, really, to talk to about this. So. Hello, BYOB. Robert Frost was a fraud and a charlatan. Not in his poetry, exactly, though he has long been known to be an especially vicious poet, who adopted a deceptively folksy style to mask the darker aspects of his thinking, which remain obscure to most of his readers to this day. It's not that; it's in the presentation. See, Frost okay, so this is where the letter comes in. Robert Frost wrote huge amounts of correspondence; he has an indecipherable, chicken-scratch style of handwriting that makes easy transcription of his letters basically impossible. People have gone to the trouble of transcribing/compiling/publishing some of what is considered his more interesting correspondence (i.e. some of his letters to his friend and fellow poet Louis Untermeyer) but the bulk of it has remained untouched. Until recently, that is; there's been an ongoing project (the "Frost Letters Project", I used to hear it called, back when I knew a few people who worked on it) to transcribe the remaining enormous piles of correspondence and publish 'em, en masse, for a quick (well, not really quick) buck (actually probably more for reasons of scholarship and prestige). In reality, of course, basically nobody wants to read huge amounts of the letters of Robert Frost, who was, as I said above, a very difficult and often deliberately malicious (someone more charitable might say "mischievous") poet, especially considering that, when it comes to Frost's actual poetry, there's only 800 or so pages of it, while his prose and correspondence come to piles and piles and piles. Anyway. Volume one of the compiled letters was published a year or two ago; it was then that I first leafed through it (i don't own a copy; it's a gigantic, expensive tome; I walked to a local university and took a look at theirs), and found a strange letter. It's dated May 4th, 1916, and was sent to his friend Louis Untermeyer (you can google him); the date is apparently not on the letter itself and was provided by Untermeyer's estate, or something (i'm not much of a scholar), but the contents of it are strange. Frost tells Untermeyer that he is going to share with him an ugly secret. The secret is that, as Frost puts it, "the poet in me has been dead for nearly ten years"; he goes on to explain that all of his poetry (and there's a good amount of it) was written in his twenties, when he was a young man, but that he has been selectively and carefully publishing it piecemeal to give people the impression that he is a still-working, developing artist ("I have myself all in a strong box, where I can unfold as a personality at discretion"); he's done this for well for obvious reasons, really; Frost knew how to manipulate people, and how to play off their expectations. The tl;dr is that Robert Frost told a friend of his in a letter that he wrote all of his important work in between the ages of twenty and thirty, but spent the rest of his life publishing it bit by bit so that people would think that he was still a working artist. I know probably nobody but me is bothered by something like this, but it's an important detail that it seems like nobody is reporting or talking about anywhere, so now you know, BYOB, and that's just how it is. |
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 22:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:50 |
|
|
that seems like a neat idea, like being a professional athlete and saving your money and then retiring by 30 im envious if this is true
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 22:46
|
|
|
holy shirt! |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 23:49
|
|
|
|
Doesn't make him a fraud or a charlatan. I mean, he was misrepresenting his work, but he still wrote that original stuff. Pretty cool find though. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 01:12
|
|
|
I love poetry and this is super interesting to me!! why is part of your paragraph cut off 
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 01:15
|
|
|
joke_explainer posted:Doesn't make him a fraud or a charlatan. I mean, he was misrepresenting his work, but he still wrote that original stuff. Pretty cool find though. I hear you; it's um. He specifically massaged his work and misrepresented his thinking so as to better become a famous poet; it's it's intellectual and academic dishonesty, he totally got away with it, and, to be frank, it's caused a lot of harm. People don't understand how integral Frost is to modern American English and thought any more than they understand how integral Shakespeare is to the same; he codified a bunch of stuff that still kicks around today. The problem is that he deliberately wrote to be misunderstood, and like succeeded. All of that has been known in academic circles for a long time; this biographical dimension to his duplicity is what would be new here. Preview edit: I know we live in a non-poetic society, where people don't think about this kind of stuff or think that this stuff is important, but, honestly, it is, and Frost's malpractice is it's kind of a problem. Poets have obligations. Quidnose posted:I love poetry and this is super interesting to me!! I think that's probably just how I talk. Luvcow posted:that seems like a neat idea, like being a professional athlete and saving your money and then retiring by 30 He says, in the letter I above quoted, that, having finished the entirety of his poetic work at a young age, "Now, my time is my own." If it makes you feel any better his life was um unpleasant. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 02:34
|
|
|
FilthIncarnate posted:If it makes you feel any better his life was whose isn't?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 03:03
|
|
|
Luvcow posted:whose isn't? That's fair. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 03:22
|
|
|
Quidnose posted:I love poetry and this is super interesting to me!! On a different note: I am not a lover of poetry, and would never describe myself as such. But if you are looking for poetry you ought to be reading Robert Frost's "On How Hard It Is to Keep From Being King When It's In You and In the Situation". If you really care, you ought to dig up "A Masque of Reason" and "A Masque of Mercy", Frost's two plays entirely written in verse (even the stage directions). "A Masque of Reason", in particular, is probably his best work; in it, Frost writes a 43rd chapter of the Book of Job. "Mercy" is about Jonah; it is maybe less good. You won't find either of the Masques anywhere except for the Library of Congress edition, though; not even his collected works bother to include them, most of the time, or if they do they include only excerpts. I know that the Masque of Reason, at least, did have a standalone print edition early in the 20th century (I want to say the 30's), producing a number of very tiny, very precious volumes (I think only twenty-five or so pages each, in hardcover). There exists a library in southern california which has long possessed two such volumes, or so it has thought; for a period of several years, I surreptitiously owned one of them, though I returned it when I was done with it. By the time I'd "borrowed" it, it hadn't been loaned out for over thirty years; I figured no one would miss it. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 06:23
|
|
|
I think it's worth the effort to rescue Frost from all of the terrible things about him. "The Lovely Shall be Choosers" was a favorite of the academic I once knew, if you're looking for a shorter read. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 06:25
|
|
|
Sorry; I know this thread wasn't originally to discuss poetry, really, or at least not directly. I end up there mostly because it is my sole area of expertise. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 06:29
|
|
|
|
it's very interesting, and topical since it's Poetry Month in the USA
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 08:03
|
|
|
City of Glompton posted:it's very interesting, and topical since it's Poetry Month in the USA I didn't know that. But now I want to post poetry; I hope that's all right. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
I had to do some legwork to get this one, but it's worth it. A History of Western Music Chapter 63: Whitney Houston August Kleinzahler They follow you around the store, these power ballads, you and the women with their shopping carts filled with eggs, cookies, 90 fl.oz. containers of anti-bacterial dishwashing liquid, buffeting you sideways like a punishing wind. You stand, almost hypnotised, at the rosticceria counter staring at the braised lamb shanks, the patterns those tiny, coagulated rivulets of fat make, both knees about to go out from under you. – Can I help you, sir? No, no, thank you, I’m afraid not … It’s mostly the one woman who writes these things, a petite, almost perpetually sombre, brunette in her LA studio, undecorated, two cats, traffic coursing up and down the boulevard outside, curtains drawn against the unrelenting sun. Because of your unconventional lifestyle you have been shopping among women your entire life, young mothers and matrons, almost no other males around except staff and seniors, the old men squinching their eyes, scowling at the prices. What sort of life have you led that you find yourself, an adult male of late middle age, about to weep among the avocados and citrus fruits in a vast, overlit room next to a bosomy Cuban grandma with her sparkly, extravagant eyewear? It’s good that your parents are no longer alive. It’s a simple formula, really: verse, verse, chorus (and don’t take too long to get there), verse, chorus, bridge, solo, if any, chorus (good chance of key modulation here, really gets ’em) – electric keyboard, soaring guitar, likely a string part or two. There’s no telling how much that woman is worth, a ‘misunderstood Jewish girl’ from Van Nuys. How would one go about making love to someone like that, sitting alone in her studio all day, shades drawn, two cats, writing these songs of tortured love, up to the tips of her waders in self-immolation, often keeping at it well into the night? Celine Dion, Cher, Michael Bolton, Faith Hill, Toni Braxton – knocking you back one after another, all morning and afternoon, at least until the men arrive after work. I don’t know why. Perhaps it has to do with the ‘emotional nature’ of women. You, you’re breathing all funny, nearly paralysed. But there’s one song they almost never play and I’ll tell you why: it’s the one Dolly Parton wrote, not the brunette, but it’s not Dolly who’s doing the singing, it’s the one who just died. Because if they played that one, it wouldn’t be just you dying in aisle #5. All the girls would be dropping out there like it was sarin gas pouring from the speakers up there hidden behind the lights. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:21
|
|
|
Woof. Kleinzahler; not a great poet, but a real one, and still alive, luckily; mostly he writes for the London Review of Books, these days, which my onetime employer used to say was the last worthwhile english language publication in the world. I don't keep up with it anymore; it might still be. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:25
|
|
|
FilthIncarnate posted:I didn't know that. poetry is good always loved this line from the aeneid: virgil posted:So Iris ran down the sky on wings of saffron dew.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Luvcow posted:poetry is good How are you doing, Mr. (?) Luvcow are you okay? |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Really neat find about Robert Frost! I like the poem you posted. The last two stanzas refer to the song "I Will Always Love You," although that is probably obvious to most people. Do you know if the petite brunette is a real person, or just someone the poet created?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
FilthIncarnate posted:How are you doing, Mr. (?) Luvcow its sunday, my day off, and i had time to muck out into the marsh and do some dock maintenance/repair so yes 
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
Luvcow posted:its sunday, my day off, and i had time to muck out into the marsh and do some dock maintenance/repair so yes That's good; I'm glad to hear that. I've got something I'm thinking about but I don't know what it is yet or how I feel about it. You see, I got a strange email the other day. Is it all right if I talk to you about it? I don't know if it will help or not, but it probably won't hurt. blaise rascal posted:Really neat find about Robert Frost! It's someone but I don't remember who. |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
FilthIncarnate posted:That's good; I'm glad to hear that. of course
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2016 19:55
|
|
| a good thread; a good find. it seems as though his well dried up at some stage and he still had backlog enough to survive him out the decades. and he clearly published the right work at the right time if his importance and stature are anything to go by, no? so maybe it's better this way, everybody benefited for longer from that brief creative period, more people were reached by his work, he paid his bills etc.? | |
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2016 20:00
|
|
~*
~*
|
Poetry is tedious, but I'm sure it's important historically or something. Anyway, I can't read or write, so it's not very important to me. |
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
|
GODSPEED JOHN GLENN posted:Poetry is tedious, but I'm sure it's important historically or something. Anyway, I can't read or write, so it's not very important to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2016 20:25
|
|
|
I don't read poetry; I just look at the metaphors |
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
|
i would like to hear about what exactly frost's impact on language was i don't know much about him or his work, despite having one of his poems memorized for no particular reason
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 09:02
|
|
|
One cannot deny the impact Robert Frost's unique name has had on wider literary culture "Guess who my favorite poet is" -- Crystal Maiden, Dota 2 it's robert frost |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 10:41
|
|
|
GODSPEED JOHN GLENN posted:Poetry is tedious, but I'm sure it's important historically or something. Anyway, I can't read or write, so it's not very important to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 14:21
|
|
|
this day is filling up with robert frost, i've always liked the grim fandango reference too him "run you pigeons! It's Robert Frost!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 03:05
|
|
|
|
this robert frost guy sounds like a menace. im glad hes dead i would be afraid for my childrens safety if he was still at large
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 03:19
|
|
|
robert frost posted:Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 03:32
|
|
|
|
I love tedium. It's relaxing |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 06:33
|
|
|
That's my secret, filthincarnate, I find all threads tedious. |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 09:10
|
|
|
this is actually really interesting and hosed up if true
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 09:54
|
|
|
|
free Trapt CD posted:a good thread; a good find. it seems as though his well dried up at some stage and he still had backlog enough to survive him out the decades. and he clearly published the right work at the right time if his importance and stature are anything to go by, no? so maybe it's better this way, everybody benefited for longer from that brief creative period, more people were reached by his work, he paid his bills etc.? FilthIncarnate posted:I am okay, so I actually am interested, and since I missed this thread the first time around I'm taking the liberty of bumping it first, I'm intrigued by your point about Frost's general disingenuousness (in his poetry). I sort of wish this stuff had been emphasized in my undergraduate English courses. I googled a bit and the topic seems pretty interesting, for example I read a take on how "The Road Not Taken" is near-universally misunderstood in pop culture. is there some particular book/writer that would be a good resource for further reading? second, that Kleinzahler poem was a worthwhile read, very Prufrock-y. thanks. finally, yes I'd like to hear your response to free Trapt CD's points. sure, it's a profoundly cynical move to give up on any effort to evolve as an artist, but do you really think the context in which the poems were released/published bears upon their value and importance? is the frustration something about Frost as a role model, rather than the merits of his corpus? the whole relationship between author and text interests me, I still can't decide whether I should try to appreciate Polanski's work without reference to his personal life - or Woody Allen, or Bill Cosby, or, well, there's no shortage of examples
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 00:05
|
|
|
Are words really chosen to be expressed by the author? Or is the author chosen by the words to be expressed?
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 00:33
|
|
Awesome winter sig by Symbolic, love it!
|
Even if this claim is true, I think it's 100% fine. Part of being an artist is developing the persona that people believe lies behind the work. It's like, the show starts when you walk in the theater, not when you sit down. Lady Gaga doesn't actually go to sleep in meat pajamas. |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 04:39
|
|
| Lady Gaga definitely goes to sleep in meat pajamas. | |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 14:25
|
|
|
misty mountaintop posted:Lady Gaga definitely goes to sleep in meat pajamas. this would not surprise me in the least
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 14:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 19:50 |
|
|
Manifisto posted:okay, so I actually am interested, and since I missed this thread the first time around I'm taking the liberty of bumping it Well, all right. Here are my ground rules for this discussion. 1) I reserve the right to close the thread and vanish into the woodwork if too many people start paying attention; I post (when I do post) here in BYOB precisely because I don't want to be looked at too much by people who might anyway. 2) I request you take everything I say with an enormous grain of salt; I'm not a member of a fashionable school of thought; I am, unfortunately, very old-school, which is a consequence of my temperament and education. Luckily for our discussion, Frost himself was also extremely, extremely old-school (he had a great deal of private contempt for the High Modernists, i.e. Ezra Pound's circle, whom he met in London when he traveled there to publish his books; it's it's all complicated). 3) I didn't talk about this six months ago when I started the thread because I pshhh I don't like pontificating? Mostly? There's a lot of that around; I avoid it when I can. Unfortunately in order to explain why I said the things I said earlier I'll have to advance a theory of poetics, which will necessarily as pretentious as this will sound, it will require me to also advance a theory of truth. I think there's a fancy philosophical word for that (epistemology?) but that's not my field (at least not directly) so I don't know it and don't feel comfortable using it. 4) I realize this whole thread goes against my "don't pontificate" thing but I I guess sometimes I feel I have to, just so I can get my own thoughts in order. An audience is helpful. S'why I post here. All right. I'll start replying to your questions now. |
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2016 14:57
|
|