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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


MechaG isn't really a big Terminator, though.

Like, I do see the comparison -- Cyberdyne / Apex creates a war machine that does its job of killing humans a little too well, and then Skynet ironically reproduces everything that was already wrong with human society and the military in particular, eventually producing a Terminator that in T2 is, like, a veteran with PTSD who underestimates his own capacity for anything besides violence. If you read MechaG as a rebellious slave then there's obviously something wrong with a story about how they just need to be put down and everything will be fine.

But here's the thing, right? There is no "Robo-Godzilla." Mecha-Godzilla is by definition a piloted craft. One powered by slavery -- like, again, MechaG literally runs on the life energy of forsaken (titan) children lol -- but initially controlled by Ren Serizawa (whose only objection to any of this is that MechaG might not run properly with a new energy source, and who is driven by the desire to impress? surpass? his deceased post-WWII-generation father, but in any case acts completely contrary to his father's beliefs and goals) and then later by the vengeful ghost of King Ghidorah.

MechaG isn't a slave rebellion; King Ghidorah is the two "unintended" but inevitable consequences of capitalism -- fascism and climate change -- merged into a single apocalyptic threat, and MechaG is just a vehicle for this ostensibly "dead" threat to come back to life, because none of the conditions that give rise to it have changed at all.

e: had the wrong generation for Serizawa, but on the other hand he's definitely trading on similarity to the original character even if he's not actually 100+ years old

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 5, 2021

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




GvK is so gloriously stupid. "How do we even the odds between Godzilla and Kong? Give Kong an axe. No, a laser axe." Also, their world looks like our world but there are spaceships and space stations that must have cost a trillion dollars, but not in space.

There are many criticisms to be made of this stupid movie, but I'm inordinately pleased that the miserable Russell family drama from the last film is almost gone. I know it's stupid to criticize a kaiju movie for not having the kaiju onscreen all of the time, but the human parts of KotM were just enervating.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I do think the entire trilogy would be improved if it were about Serizawa family drama instead. Ishiro himself is kind of fascinatingly coded as conservative -- he leads an organization named "Monarch", every word out of his mouth is about the need to preserve the natural order, he's got an environmentalist bent but in a way that shades into religious awe (which as I understand it is a very common phenomenon in Japanese conservatism), his objection to Ghidorah is that he's a "false king", etc. Even his broken pocket watch is supposed to be, like, a reminder to be pessimistic about human nature.

So it makes sense that his son is, what -- desperate to prove that humanity's capacity for destruction can actually be ennobling or positive? -- and that he'd come into conflict with his father over that.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


If only his son had any characterization at all beyond “this is Ren Serizawa”

I still can’t believe they dropped a Serizawa son into this movie and somehow did less with him than the villain’s actual child, who they also did basically nothing with.

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Halloween Jack posted:

GvK is so gloriously stupid. "How do we even the odds between Godzilla and Kong? Give Kong an axe. No, a laser axe." Also, their world looks like our world but there are spaceships and space stations that must have cost a trillion dollars, but not in space.

This complaint always confuses me. the US sank literal trillions of dollars into the Military-Industrial Complex after some regular people armed with box-cutters destroyed two buildings. Can you imagine how much you could convince tax-payers to fork over if there were antediluvian monster-gods immune to all conventional weapons that can at a minimum destroy whole cities?

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.



Big Mean Jerk posted:

If only his son had any characterization at all beyond “this is Ren Serizawa”

I still can’t believe they dropped a Serizawa son into this movie and somehow did less with him than the villain’s actual child, who they also did basically nothing with.
The first time they said his name I had to turn on subtitles because I couldn't believe they'd just fly past that.

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





They should have revealed he wasn't that guys son, they just share a common Japanese surname.

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Vince MechMahon posted:

They should have revealed he wasn't that guys son, they just share a common Japanese surname.

It's just that joke from Blazing Saddles, except all the names are "Serizawa"

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.



You said Serizawa twice.

I like Serizawa!

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Asterite34 posted:

This complaint always confuses me. the US sank literal trillions of dollars into the Military-Industrial Complex after some regular people armed with box-cutters destroyed two buildings. Can you imagine how much you could convince tax-payers to fork over if there were antediluvian monster-gods immune to all conventional weapons that can at a minimum destroy whole cities?
People aren't "convinced" to fork over their wealth to their rulers. But I'm not actually complaining, just interested in how this space opera technology hasn't bled into the daily life of anyone who doesn't live in these megascale Bond villain fortresses.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Asterite34 posted:

This complaint always confuses me. the US sank literal trillions of dollars into the Military-Industrial Complex after some regular people armed with box-cutters destroyed two buildings. Can you imagine how much you could convince tax-payers to fork over if there were antediluvian monster-gods immune to all conventional weapons that can at a minimum destroy whole cities?

Pacific Rim had it right anyway. They would develop some dumb tech to buy time and then build bunkers for the rich.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Asterite34 posted:

This complaint always confuses me. the US sank literal trillions of dollars into the Military-Industrial Complex after some regular people armed with box-cutters destroyed two buildings. Can you imagine how much you could convince tax-payers to fork over if there were antediluvian monster-gods immune to all conventional weapons that can at a minimum destroy whole cities?

Money's fake, taxes don't pay for poo poo, Godzilla vs Kong takes place in a world where scarcity is artificial and the only real economy is in Titan NFTs.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

I would say that the best thing about GvK is actually how it is soberly realistic about the mechanics and tactical considerations of a fight between Godzilla and Kong in specific, plotting out their moves and countermoves to carefully account for the massive force multiplier that the breath weapon represents, etc. The rest I can take or leave.

Mokelumne Trekka
Nov 22, 2015

Soon.


fatherboxx posted:

Adam Wyngard is the luckiest motherfucker that his movie is the first post-lockdown hit

I pretty much agree. It is interesting to see GvsK become a huge moment in movie history during the pandemic. There was simply a pent-up demand for the theater experience, and perhaps any other blockbuster with a release date of 3/31 would have had a similar result.

With that said, "Wingard" (I use quotation marks because how much is this movie really his and not focus groups/screen testing calculus, etc.) also made a normie-pleaser. The most scornful reactions to GvsK have ironically come from the fandom, not particularly this thread but in other areas.

This was the absolute best possible scenario for the continuation of Legendary films. Only time will tell.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


I don't really care about more Monsterverse given its overall track record, but I would like to see Adam Wingard get to do whatever he wants to next.

Shiroc
May 16, 2009



As a metapoint, it would be disappointing if GvK further heightens the 'Giant Monster movies are supposed to be idiotic!' perception and makes it harder to convince people that ones like the original Godzilla or Shin Godzilla are both great monster movies and really good, smart movies in general.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

I like the Monsterverse but don’t like going dumb for it. Sacrificing quality for “fun” is crap.

HannibalBarca
Sep 11, 2016

History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

Shiroc posted:

As a metapoint, it would be disappointing if GvK further heightens the 'Giant Monster movies are supposed to be idiotic!' perception and makes it harder to convince people that ones like the original Godzilla or Shin Godzilla are both great monster movies and really good, smart movies in general.

Feels like outside a particular segment of the hardcore fandom, that ship has already sailed, unfortunately.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Gatts posted:

I like the Monsterverse but don’t like going dumb for it. Sacrificing quality for “fun” is crap.

Exactly; you can have surrealism without being stupid. What happened to Mothra's egg and the twin psychics from the last film?

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Gatts posted:

I like the Monsterverse but don’t like going dumb for it. Sacrificing quality for “fun” is crap.

That describes at least a third of all Godzilla movies though

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Halloween Jack posted:

GvK is so gloriously stupid. "How do we even the odds between Godzilla and Kong? Give Kong an axe. No, a laser axe." Also, their world looks like our world but there are spaceships and space stations that must have cost a trillion dollars, but not in space.

When they mentioned that they lost "the fleet" in this movie I was like... In this universe, where there is a constant threat of kaiju attack, there would never not be some kind of fleet. When you got out of high school, you wouldn't go to college, it would be a question of which fleet you would join, even if you weren't actually military. If Godzilla destroyed 17 ships, they would poo poo out 17 ships from Pittsburgh steel by the end of the next day.

Or you know, maybe that's all wrong, but some other better movie would be asking these types of questions. Pacific Rim kinda does, where the plot is that the entire world is on a war footing and humans are still on the verge of extinction.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Exactly; you can have surrealism without being stupid. What happened to Mothra's egg and the twin psychics from the last film?

They probably just died offscreen between movies because the writers couldn’t be bothered for no reason, just like every single Titan other than Kong and Godzilla and also every native on Skull Island.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Sodomy Hussein posted:

When they mentioned that they lost "the fleet" in this movie I was like... In this universe, where there is a constant threat of kaiju attack, there would never not be some kind of fleet. When you got out of high school, you wouldn't go to college, it would be a question of which fleet you would join, even if you weren't actually military. If Godzilla destroyed 17 ships, they would poo poo out 17 ships from Pittsburgh steel by the end of the next day.
I think the answer is that even with a draft, they can't crew enough ships to run interference against Godzilla. If Godzilla attacks, their plan is to shoot Him with harmless weapons until, in His wisdom, He answers their prayers for death. Did the Navy have some huge initiative to recruit people with suicidal ideation? I'd like to see those commercials.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 5, 2021

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


The other kaiju in the movie aren't dead. They're either in captivity, like Kong, or they're simply not enough of a threat to bother with. In KotM they submitted to Godzilla, and then in GvK we see that Monarch has just captured Kong and locked him up in a proverbial black site, while U.S. politicians debate whether we should simply solve the "titan problem" by exterminating them all. Monarch is also characterized as having such relatively complete control over titans' physical freedom that if they need Kong somewhere they can simply stick him on a boat and ship him there.

Only Godzilla himself remains a threat to Monarch's global hegemony, and there's a kind of uneasy peace there that mostly involves staying out of each other's way in public, while secretly researching superweapons to achieve supremacy and destroy him. A state of cold war, if you like.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

I also don’t recall a fight scene set to techno hip hop and I am disappointed. I like the movie but think it could have been more. At least if it breathes more life into Monsterverse it will be acceptable compromise.

Like if you’re going to go balls out “dumb” get P Diddy to perform a mega concert on the rooftop of a building in Hong Kong doing soundtrack as Godzilla and Kong fight around you

Gatts fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 5, 2021

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Like, "but what about all the Titan attacks that must surely be occurring even though no such thing is ever shown" is begging the question. GvK never gives us any reason to actually believe that attacking cities and going on rampages is normal Titan behavior in the first place -- in fact, through MBB, it almost directly states the opposite, in that Godzilla suddenly going on the war path is extraordinary and abnormal. (Note also how Wolf Dad, now a Monarch employee in a position of some authority, gets extremely upset at her for even asking about this and refuses to give a substantive answer as to why.)

It's just that, for some reason, all these (para)-military guys and politicians and CEOs can't stand the mere existence of creatures that challenge their rule over the world.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Apr 5, 2021

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Halloween Jack posted:

I think the answer is that even with a draft, they can't crew enough ships to run interference against Godzilla. If Godzilla attacks, their plan is to shoot Him with harmless weapons until, in His wisdom, He answers their prayers for death. Did the Navy have some huge initiative to recruit people with suicidal ideation? I'd like to see those commercials.

Yeah this is a movie that is satisfied with being big and dumb and seems confident that everyone gets that and has stopped asking questions. Once a movie decides that the hollow earth is not only there, but an alien planet with a sun, you're not even thinking about why jets are still trying to dogfight with Godzilla. Every character and plot point is perfunctory.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Halloween Jack posted:

Did the Navy have some huge initiative to recruit people with suicidal ideation? I'd like to see those commercials.

I mean *gestures wildly at the last 40 years of U.S. foreign policy*

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Here's my idea: the next monsterverse movie introduces the rarely-observed "Sigma Titan" which stands outside the Alpha hierarchy,

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Also no offense to Kong (who I greatly enjoyed in the movie) but he's not 1/10th the Category Threat that Monsterverse Godzilla is. Kong gets put into a building and it hurts him pretty bad, dislocating one of his joints and putting him at a huge disadvantage. Godzilla gets mashed through like 5 skyscrapers and it just pisses him off; 10 more and he's like "yeah ok this is starting to bug me a little", it literally takes a solid 5 minutes of Robozilla mercilessly beating his rear end before he's opened up (and even then he springs right back into the fight after a short breather). We haven't even gotten into Godzilla's new Disintegration Ray Special Move; imagine Monarch tried to hold Godzilla like they did Kong. He'd be out of there in around 12 seconds.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

Ferrinus posted:

Here's my idea: the next monsterverse movie introduces the rarely-observed "Sigma Titan" which stands outside the Alpha hierarchy,

So, Gigan?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


All the "alpha" stuff was nonsense when it was framed as biology and becomes even more absurd once GvK reveals/retcons that (at least some of) the Titans are sapient. All the times people keep talking about how Godzilla has this innate urge to be the one and only dominant force on Earth is projection. It's human beings who can't stand the idea of not being at the top of the food chain -- hence "Apex."

In reality, Godzilla fights:

- The MUTOs, who are basically "facehuggers for Godzillas" -- left to their own devices, they would have hunted him down to murder him and lay eggs in his corpse.

- King Ghidorah, who as we've established is basically Space Satan and whipped up the whole Titan world into an anti-Godzilla frenzy. (Rodan joined in cheerfully, but Mothra refused -- these are personal choices, not biological destiny.)

- MechaGodzilla, an abomination powered by a combination of Titan children and his own (ancestor's? contemporary's?) corpse, and animated by the spirit of his worst enemy.

- Monarch, who is directly responsible for the second and complicit in the third.

- Kong, who is from a civilization of Godzilla-killers and decided to gently caress with Big G while keeping the company of Monarch and Apex, on a day when Godzilla was already really cranky about several of the above points. And then comes back with an axe made of his grandzilla's spine. All a big misunderstanding, and it's sorted by the end of GvK with no lasting harm to either.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 5, 2021

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

Tuxedo, thank you for the posts. You da MVP.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Sodomy Hussein posted:

Yeah this is a movie that is satisfied with being big and dumb and seems confident that everyone gets that and has stopped asking questions. Once a movie decides that the hollow earth is not only there, but an alien planet with a sun, you're not even thinking about why jets are still trying to dogfight with Godzilla. Every character and plot point is perfunctory.
For me it's the other way around. If you show me a really well-thought-out setting where humanity has had to cope with Godzilla's existence, I'll buy that Godzilla exists and he can destroy a black hole by breathing on it or whatever.

Like, Fury Road shows warlords trying to waste as much gasoline as possible driving extremely top-heavy fortress-trucks through the desert, but it justifies this by creating a society that has the need to do that. You know exactly why some teenager is willing to paint a skull on his face and Wilhelm Scream himself into an exploding car because an old man told him to.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


They want to believe that Godzilla is driven by biology but GvK proves indisputably that Godzilla does it because he chooses to. That little nod he gives Kong is like "yeeeeah buddy this is how I saw it going", he's absolutely not got any biological to his behavior, he loves to bully people (in fact I'm pretty sure his just-beating-of-Kong is why he doesn't open up on RoboGodzilla immediately with his atomic breath; he's overconfident and wants to beat this metal abomination to death with his own claws because he fuckin' loves putting the hurt on people). This is a freakishly ancient atomic powered lizard that can pinpoint a rival beneath 3000 kilometers of solid rock and melt a fuckin' hole to them in under an hour, and will do it just to scream at them through said hole. I haven't seen every Godzilla movie so I'll ask Burkion: has Godzilla simultaneously been more powerful and more petty in the same film?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Gatts posted:

Tuxedo, thank you for the posts. You da MVP.

I appreciate it!

Also, in full charity, I do think it's true that this movie presents all of this information in a way that is disorienting for the viewer. It's a big blockbuster movie where every single character other than Godzilla himself is in a state of confusion or denial about what's going on, scrambling about trying to solve "mysteries" that, to the audience, are presented as simple and obvious facts (e.g. APEX is building MechaGodzilla, Godzilla isn't the real/initial aggressor in the attacks, the Hollow Earth really exists, etc.)

I just don't think this is entirely the result of poor editing, or entirely a bad thing regardless of whether it was intentional. It's a movie about ideological confusion and its consequences.

HannibalBarca
Sep 11, 2016

History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I haven't seen every Godzilla movie so I'll ask Burkion: has Godzilla simultaneously been more powerful and more petty in the same film?

Arguably GMK.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

https://youtu.be/CsOig2_jsNk

I do have to say as far as it goes that laugh a great unexpected character moment and elevated the fight

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



The movie poster thread was talking poo poo about Minilla and someone mentioned the Godziban series and oh my god how is this the first I’ve heard of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA5bZOXENF4

Oh my god shin’s tail has a face

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Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Also no offense to Kong (who I greatly enjoyed in the movie) but he's not 1/10th the Category Threat that Monsterverse Godzilla is. Kong gets put into a building and it hurts him pretty bad, dislocating one of his joints and putting him at a huge disadvantage. Godzilla gets mashed through like 5 skyscrapers and it just pisses him off; 10 more and he's like "yeah ok this is starting to bug me a little", it literally takes a solid 5 minutes of Robozilla mercilessly beating his rear end before he's opened up (and even then he springs right back into the fight after a short breather). We haven't even gotten into Godzilla's new Disintegration Ray Special Move; imagine Monarch tried to hold Godzilla like they did Kong. He'd be out of there in around 12 seconds.

I don't think anyone even vaguely familiar with Godzilla bought Kong as an actual threat to him, which is why they wrote in that Kong gets a sweet purp

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