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Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

RBX posted:

You're insane if you even think to compare sfv and the new kof.

Just because SFV uses more resources for being ugly doesn't mean it's any less ugly.

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Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Zand posted:

Japanese game devs taking advice from a westerner and likely being in charge of implementation sounds shaky to me

Well, Revelator's the first case of japanese devs correctly implementing lab zero's ps3 stick driver so it's a good start.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

mycot posted:

I thought the first Japanese dev to use it was Koihime Enbu?

Note I didn't say "using" but "correctly implementing", so for Koihime, which I had forgotten about, it depends on whether you can just plug the stick and it works (which is how the driver really works) or you have to do the whole rigmarole like in SF4 and MKX.

Chev fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Apr 26, 2016

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

Arc System Works tends to be the exception with these things. I recall that Blazblue was the first Japanese fighting games was actual competent online. This also resulted in it being one of the first fighting games where a good share of its competitive scene was in online lobbies.

Yes and no. Though the features around it are good, their netcode is still lackluster, it's the very reason we're discussing this in the first place.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

dangerdoom volvo posted:

98 is FREE and BETTER on fightcade. to play google fightcade

It's not free, you're just not paying for it. Get the difference?

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

The old guy's sprite is literally fei long's torso pasted on Yamazaki's legs and the hitsparks that aren't from kof are from Metal Slug. The mugen association runs deeper than just the engine.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Sade posted:

Animation's really nice on Rotten Core, but the blatantly ripped-off assets are a huge turnoff. If you don't have your own sound design yet, it's not your game.

As I said, it's not just the sound design, the sprites are voltroned from existing fighting games too.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

any examples? curious since i didnt actually recognize anything

Here's the best known one. The "All new HD explosion" on the IGG page is a metal slug explosion run through an upscale filter, too.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

They used 3D models in their sprite process. There is no way they would let those assets go to waste.


EDIT - I found a video comparing KOFXIV and XIII's animation. It does seem that there are a lot of similarities between the two games. That said there are a few differences. You can really see the effects of animation between 2D and 3D.

No, the models used for KOF13 were super basic, undetailed things, and proportioned pretty differently from the KOF14 models. Here's Mai's, for example. No matter what, they were entirely redone. They may have imported the original animations as a basis but it's just as possible they merely referenced the kof13 sprites directly, like what happened with Guilty Gear. As for letting assets go to waste, japanese companies are pretty well known for being poor at even keeping old assets in the first place, and SNKP isn't the least chaotic of companies, so all bets are off.

In Training posted:

Yeah, it's a shame they'll probably never do sprites again because HD sprites are a nightmare to make or whatever, but I'm glad the game exists at all and looks like fast fun. And shockingly it's going to come out feature complete, imagine tht
It's kinda tricky, the short version is sprites aren't a nightmare to make at all, but 3d consoles didn't have much video ram and you need it to store the tons of sprites necessary to have fluid animation (Sprites also can't account for extra costumes, which are important for monetization these days). It's worth noting, however, that being constrained by video memory largely happened because developers were using the same old methods rather than applying modern graphic techniques to sprites. Skullgirls, handling six 1000+ frames hi-res truecolor layered characters on the same console where Blazblue was struggling with two 500 frames 256 colors pixelated characters, illustrates what you can do when you throw a motivated programmer at the problem (for the technically inclined among you, Skullgirls manages this because its sprites are stored compressed, and very well compressed, in system memory and only the required sprites for a given frame are decompressed and sent to video memory, while Blazblue just keeps all its frames uncompressed as textures).

Well, on a lot of levels Skullgirls illustrates that sprites aren't expensive as long as you're willing to modernize your methods. However you probably need to drop things like pixel art style, as *that* will scale poorly production-wise as sprites get more res.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Arzachel posted:

The technique used by Xrd also doesn't work with extra costumes either, since you'd have to redo a ton of meshes used in animations.
Actually, that's a common misconception on the net but has never been mentioned by Arcsys people. Having had a close look at the models myself, there aren't that many meshes that need being remade, because it's things like smears, cartoony faces or Milia's hair, that you don't actually need to change for a different costume. Even Milia's hair's a dozen meshes or so, compared to several hundred frames for sprites. And because it's all skeletal animation, once you've got the new meshes (and can easily reskin them thanks to XSI Softimage's gator), you're done. Elphelt's Revelator costume is already an indication that it works fine, and I dare say we'll see more alternate costumes as Arcsys grow more comfortable with their tech.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

How have you had a close look at the models? Serious question, the second sentence of your post has me curious.

EDIT - Just realized you most likely just imported the models from the PC version.

Real hurthling! posted:

Probably went through the Pc versions files or has an uncle at arcsys

Yup! The beauty of middleware engines is, really, anything that can read UE3 models (umodel for example) can mostly read models from Xrd (though being a programmer myself i have made viewers for specific games in the past for my use), minus the cartoony shaders. PC works fine, though I actually started with a rip of the PS3 version, mind you. I was and to some extent still am obsessed by Xrd's models, translated (badly) those articles about them, too, and was in Tokyo when they had the second loketest (though that technically was a coincidence).

Chev fucked around with this message at 14:44 on May 13, 2016

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Savior is the only true savior.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

NecroMonster posted:

one step forward and two steps back

Some times for good blocking a few steps back are necessary

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Endorph posted:

gotta fund indivisible somehow

Indivisible is Lab Zero working for 505 and Skullgirls mobile is Hidden Variable working for Autumn Games. The SG mobile money's unrelated to Invisible.

Chev fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jul 3, 2016

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Simulacra posted:

I'm convinced that MikeZ made a monkeypaw wish to make Skullgirls happen given all the garbage They've through.

Who needs a monkey paw when you've got Konami?

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Smoking Crow posted:

Why aren't arcades dead in Japan

They're getting around to it, give it a few more years.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Spuckuk posted:

When did they add Slayer to the game?

2nd location test of Sign. Wait, was that a joke question?

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anothergod posted:

I have a technical question regarding stun for attacks in fighting games. I guess most fighting games are slightly different, but in general (or in games you like) how is it treated If a player still has 8 frames left of stun when you hit them again for another 16 frames of stun?

1) Are the stun frames cumulative? E.g. this scenario would stun for 24 frames?
2) Does it pick the longer stun? E.g. this scenario would stun for 16 frames. If the new hit had 4 frames of stun would it *stay* at 8 frames of stun?
3) Does it pick the newest stun? E.g. if you had 30 frames of stun left and got hit with a quick punch with only 15 frames of stun would it go to 15 frames?

I can see both scenario 2 and 3. I can also see scenario 1 if stun frames get over a certain amount that there'd be a cap or the depletion of stun frames is a function of the total number of stun frames (e.g. if you were to be over 30 frames of stun you'd start losing stun frames faster).

tldr; Does anyone have links to very technical aspects of fighting games like stun?

it's number 3. The idea is really that each new hit overrides the preceding one, ie it's really just that a hit always overrides the previous state of the character.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Actually the one named after January is Janus, the cat.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Countblanc posted:

Xrd is wizardry and it frankly is not fair to include it in any art discussion

It's really just effort, that mysterious thing a company like Capcom doesn't know how to produce anymore.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

More like insane effort. ASW is on record saying that Xrd models take as long/as much work as Blazblue sprites.
There's nothing insane about that. It means it now takes the same time using their awesome looking new standard as it does using the old one they'd mastered over years. People tend to misread it being described as crazy long, when it actually means "takes longer than those bullcrap SF4 animations, that's fer sure".

Speaking of which, there was a presentation about the SFV art direction at GDC. Video and slides. It's less interesting than the Xrd one but still interesting. I wish someone would grab and scan that golden era capcom art guide they show during the presentation though.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

chev when are you gonna make a fighting game already dang
Short answer is "Who knows?". I'm just a dev, not a game dev. Long answer is those things take time. I've already been at the point where the whole gameplay loop is there and all directinput controllers are supported, with one of those tap-to-bind button config things, for more than a year, and all the infrequent work since has been working on the animation export tech or sidetracking into building a space game engine in the same executable because being single-minded is not a programmer trait. And don't believe that filthy liar of an FPS counter, I've got a steady 60 on my laptop when I'm not printing screens. After that, all that's left is becoming an awesome artist, gameplay designer and sound guy. Smooth sailing, without a doubt.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

i thought you were a dev from the way you kept referencing animation stuff. or were you the guy that did cinematics?
I really just do boring website and database stuff (well, it's not boring to me) for a living, the game programming stuff is a hobby I enjoy as much as playing.

punk rebel ecks posted:

I would accept in seeing less of what the effort Arc System Works puts into Guilty Gear and Blazblue models/sprites as an "insane" amount of work and more in seeing that Capcom is just "lazy" with their models.
I guess my using lazy may be unfair as they do put some effort in some stuff, but I'm astonished by how much has been forgotten in terms of design and animation when transitioning from 2D to 3D/SF3 to SF4. Losing/shelving veterans is one thing (although it's a darn disgrace), but then that presentation says they even left guides behind... Well, it's not just Capcom, one of the more interesting presentations of the past GDC was the one about the excellent animation and character design in Overwatch, which is very advanced for game animation but once you examine it you realize it's the good old 12 principles of animations from that 1981 Disney book, that as a fighting gamer you may instead know from that one Darkstalkers article or Labzero animators, who ironically both use old Capcom games as shining examples. And surprise surprise, the secret ingredient was effort all along!

Chev fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Mar 22, 2017

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

supposedly they use different skeletons for each potg anim lol. thats so much loving work, its crazy. even if blizzard loves exploitative capitalism, they at least go the extra mile most of the time when doing it.
It's not actually different skeletons (well, the first person skeleton is only part of the third person skeleton and uses different animations), but they have pretty advanced rigs (for the less technically inclined, if a character is a puppet, the rig's its strings, basically) and ways to automate setting them up and changing them. Regarding smears in particular, they've got what's often called "noodle limbs", which have been pretty common in movie rigs since "cloudy with a chance of meatballs" but are still kinda uncommon in games (xrd uses them in places, like for Sol's sword). Basically it means you can switch the behavior of select limbs between standard and stretch armstrong.

Chev fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 23, 2017

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Brosnan posted:

It's actually an even more manual process than I expected, for some reason.

Well, there's a lot of things you can automate in game animation but then you get Mass Effect Andromeda. If you want Overwatch or Xrd, you need to get hands-on. To be fair though, only the PotG animations are that hands-on, in-game animations have real time physics on hair and clothes and are built by combining other animations. It's still a lot of work though.

Chev fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Mar 23, 2017

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Unrelated but was there any consensus on the quality or lack thereof of the recent Killer Instinct's AI and shadow system? I read a presentation about it and it's at least conceptually amusing so I'm intrigued whether their approach netted interesting results. Or should I assume no one around here ever plays single player anyway (or no one bought an Xbone)?

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Trykt posted:

The base AI in Killer Instinct is your standard does-random-stuff-but-input-reads-in-certain-situations. The Shadow Lab thing is a whole separate mode
Nah, see, their GDC presentation says they only have the shadow kind of AI, even for single player opponents. It's just that your personal shadow records new data whenever you train it in the shadow lab while the single player enemy AIs are static records (likely of devs and beta players, though they mention the possibility of patching regularly with new data to keep up with the meta). And I say "record" because that's the really interesting thing: their AIs are really just a bunch of replay data coupled with a search engine. Whenever the AI needs to make a decision, it just searches the replays for the most similar frame (not just in terms of positioning but based on a number of criteria and naturally a sprinkle of RNG) and replays the recorded input from there until the situation differs enough from the replay that a new search has to be made. No input reading from the player. That's why I find it to be so interesting conceptually.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Trykt posted:

It doesn't really matter that it's technically not input reading, it's reacting inhumanly fast to certain game conditions (opponent is in the air and X distance from player, do an anti-air thing) which is effectively the same thing. Either way, it's not good or fun to play against. It's still just a training dummy that lets you hit it sometimes, and not other times.
Actually the rationale exposed in the GDC presentation was that it's only humanly fast, because it really reproduces the recordings without removing anything useless, ie if you record someone who always take 200ms to react to fireballs then the dummy can only find and use sequences that react 200ms after a fireball is thrown. However it's super interesting to me that people still think it's too fast because it says a lot about how the approach's either really good (since it seems to be reacting humanly but emergently guessing right, which was supposed to be a property of the system, but so often people think it's cheating) or bad (due to it providing no better feedback than the standard dumb AI) or even that there's just a bias in player feedback thinking an AI must necessarily cheat. I tend to suspect the problem's not with reaction times but in that you still can't mindgame the dummy.

Brosnan posted:

FYI this has been a thing since Tekken started doing it in T5, which came out 13 years ago. The arcade cab had an ID card system with a character ghost on it that had your user name, W/L, and item customizations, but also stored gameplay habits, juggles you use, etc. Other players fighting through the standard arcade mode could encounter your character ghost, and if you won then whenever you put your card in to play next it would dump reward money on you.

It's cute when you see an AI use your juggles but other than that it's still gimmicky and isn't actually performing meaningful decisionmaking or really even following playstyles very closely, no matter how much the KI team wants it to sound cool.

Tekken really only used stats to feed its existing AI (ie that guy uses combo X 90% of the time so have a 90% chance of using combo X. This hasn't KI's property of replicating useless quirks), ie the system's completely different so the answer's interesting for the same reason (was it worth developing a new AI if people can't tell the difference with the old).

Chev fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 11, 2017

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

dragon enthusiast posted:

some crazy people at a Japanese university developed a puyo AI by pointing a camera at a tv and having it use computer vision and machine learning
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bJuYZ9N16jA

interrodactyl posted:

The IaMP Japanese community developed a really cool AI that let you feed it whatever replay data you wanted: http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Immateria...er/th075booster

While the AI defense kind of sucked, it was very effective at learning what blockstrings and setups led to damage, so you could have it "watch" high level tournament replays and grind out against the types of playstyles you preferred. It was extremely useful for leveling up your defense as a newer player.
Thanks for those very interesting links. I'll have to see if I can find info about the internals of those.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

You mean "yes, absolutely".

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

lamentable dustman posted:

2nd encore is the updated story mode and voices I believe. Shouldn't need it to play some games with people. Endless Beta is a version MikeZ used for testing balance changes. Probably works still but not sure who is playing it.

Endless beta intentionally doesn't have the japanese stuff IIRC.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Derlix posted:

You're not thinking of Battle Beast , are you? I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in history who played that.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Beast

I remember that one. I only had a demo though.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Fighting games with large rosters
Sure but we're talking about MVC:I here.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Blockhouse posted:

The fact that Ariels wasn't in Rev 2 convinces me more than anything there's going to be a third version
That they outright said there'd be three is probably a clue too.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Brosnan posted:

This question seems to come 'round like clockwork but basically there are two groups of complaints (both valid):

[good reasons]
I'd add it's also one of the very few games that at one point managed to fail the very basic "don't put a rootkit in the game" requirement, and that Capcom's first reaction to players being warned by their antivirus was to tell them to disable their antivirus for SFV. This tells you excatly how much respect they have for their players.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

I just want some girls in DBZ. I like my anime tiddies.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

i just want a game with vsav combos but guilty gear movement

and two-button pushblock

Out of design curiosity, what appeals to you in vsav combos?

Chev fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jul 18, 2017

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

mysterious loyall X posted:

everyone in guilty gear is a cool heavy metal dude



actually I think mr Dolphin is metal as gently caress

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Endorph posted:

arcsys's method takes a lot of time and money that the ghost of SNK basically doesn't have.
Time yes, money not particularly. Cost effectiveness always factored in their approach.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

RichterIX posted:

If you have Xrd already and buy the Rev2 upgrade can you still access the training mode from Xrd or is it gone?

You can disable rev2 somewhere in the game settings to instantaneously switch back to vanilla rev.

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Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

its possible. i mean arcsys could have seriously figured a good workaround to the issue; or maybe all of their per-frame lighting is far more automated so all they have to do is cinematics and touchups per costume

The per-frame lighting is done by moving a light source around, the mesh itself has static vertex occlusion. The only extra animation work you need when making costumes the Xrd way is making the mesh swaps for unusual deformations if the costume alters them. This is not, in fact, the titanic undertaking that most people misunderstand it to be.

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