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Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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hey guys check out this test stream footage of my new dota channel, please click like or subscribe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS7hkwbKmBM

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Dec 25, 2002

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Fereydun posted:

i cant find that one jojos match so have this instead

i gotchu fam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMKaK07-e3Q#t=247s

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Dec 25, 2002

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2 is the easiest size by which to learn the game, since you don't have to care about assist order but you don't have to learn the solo-exclusive mechanics. For the most part, you have to go out of your way to pick a bad team (there are mainly bad assists but almost every team combination can win consistently) and solos are totally viable.

The only "gotcha" things to point out are that Fukua's H Drillationship is the only move in the game which has different properties as an assist (it loses 99% of its invuln). The recommended assists for each character are up-to-date with popular player choices and instructional choices, although most players use custom assists for one reason or another. Which characters are you learning? Who is clicking with you?

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Dec 25, 2002

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giogadi posted:

Thanks for all the responses about learning Skullgirls. I'm still going through each character's introductions in the tutorial room, but so far I'm most interested in Filia and Cerebella. I haven't tried Fukua yet but if I like her I might replace Filia (Cerebella owns too hard to replace). I think I'll opt for a 2 person team since the assists and such seem to be such a core part of this game.

Filia and Fukua don't play anything at all like each other, but Fukua is incredibly easy to learn and pick up the game with. Filia has a good chance of teaching you bad habits or frustrating you, although it's still very possible to win with her. Bella really shines in duos because she gets a shitload of mileage out of the damage boost over trios. There are lots of viable assist options between the two characters, but what I recommend is to put Bella on Cerecopter for Fukua mixups and then watch footage of dekillsage (the best player in the game; one of his main teams is Fukua/Bella/Double) for Fukua ideas.

dhamster posted:

So if I want to check out Guilty Gear, should I just wait for Revelator to come out in June? I'd get SIGN but I dunno if I want to drop 30 bucks with a new game coming out so soon.

In addition to what has been said about the Revelator demo, it also includes a phenomenal tutorial. They massively improved the tutorial over the Xrd tutorial, which was already pretty good. Just preorder Revelator on PS4 and go ham.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Ventana posted:

Uh, no, definitely would reccomend H Lock n Load for Fukua (or filia). Cerecopter is harder to get used to as a new player for mixups, and LnL is already the better assist in most cases + good coverage against other assists anyways. Cerecopter is good for Filia but as a duo LnL is the way to go for the neutral assist. Copter is okay for Fukua but not really the best.

Fukua doesn't need a neutral assist. Fukua has phenomenal neutral. Copter as a learning tool for the game is a great addition to Fukua because it's intuitive lockdown and you can do shadow/command throw mixups off of it. LnL is a great assist but won't teach this gameplay concept as clearly. Once giogadi is more familiar with the game they can more fully explore options to cover their weak points as a player, whether it's using LnL to aid with zoning or even if it's Excellabella to keep enemies vulnerable to ground-based mixups.

AnonSpore posted:

The wording in this is really confusing so let me clarify: the revelator demo does not have a tutorial

poo poo, really? I thought this was in the demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMH6OABh7bw

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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it was called svc: chaos and it was loving terrible

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Dec 25, 2002

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Peak SvC: Chaos was that they chose the best version of Zero to put into a fighting game, but within days we discovered he has multiple single-move infinites.

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Dec 25, 2002

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If you're going to a local or monthly, venue fees are like $10. If you're going to a major, venue fees are like $50. Evo is fucky and weird about pricing since they're the biggest and got a separate stadium for Finals and stuff.

No matter what kind of tournament it is, you'll also have a pot fee (which is almost always $10) for each game in which you compete, all of which goes directly into that game's winnings. Sometimes, but very rarely, there will be side games that have lower pot fees ($5ish) to encourage more impulse players (this is part of the origin of referring to a specific game like, say, Melty Blood as "poverty"). Some tournaments have experimented with $20 pot fees for main games but nobody has been ballsy enough to do it for a major despite how awesome it would be.

The best alternate payment system for a tournament I've seen are auction tournaments, where you're character-locked for the tournament, the only available playable characters go up for auction, and whatever you pay for your character goes to the pot. UFGT/Combo Breaker has a shitload of auction tournaments and they're all hype as gently caress.

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Dec 25, 2002

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attackmole posted:

I'd be down to do it sometime, but I need to find a friend or two willing to go with me tbh. Gotta meet more friends in the scene, I'm only a cheapskate if I'm flying solo.

Where are you? We might be able to offer recommendations, or at least a local venue where offline casuals meet up.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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Golden Battler posted:

Something I've been wondering about for a while is, what is the purpose of the Guts system in games that have it (or something similar)? I mean, I get what it basically does, in a general sense, I just don't really understand why a develop decided to implement it, and why the system still sees use. I don't dislike it or anything, I just don't really get it, I guess.

Intended effect: To artificially make matches tenser, like how MvC3 has the last 5% of the life bar hidden behind the center part of the UI.
Actual effect: Because chip damage isn't scaled, to encourage players to be more aggressive as life bars get lower.

Guts is absolutely a poo poo system and I think any form of weird abstraction hidden from the player is a loving poison on a game (see also: Hitstun decay). The only good game with Guts is MvC2.

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Dec 25, 2002

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bebaloorpabopalo posted:

There's a lot of... things.. with this statement but can you name a fighting game that doesn't have these things, and what qualifies as "hidden" from the player.

I mean, I can think of one obvious example of a game off the top of my head that doesn't have hitstun decay, Guts, random damage/stun, gravity scaling, bizarre input priority (example: player 1 having priority over player 2), Danger Time, or any other mechanics that mess with hidden information in a way that's unpredictable on the fly-- Skullgirls.

I very much prefer to know what's going on in any given instant, and having my damage arbitrarily scaled in such a way as to make killing potential extremely hard to predict is a huge source of frustration. At least MvC2's version of Guts is the difference between 100 and 85 damage instead of the difference between 100 and 35 damage, and there are fewer overlapping systems that buff offense (like, for example, Negative Penalty). I'd be very supportive of Guts making chip better if projectile-based zoning wasn't discouraged in the games heavily featuring it.

anime was right posted:

guts is fine its just never clearly communicated in any capacity in addition to often being paired with damage modifiers instead of variable hp

This is a huge part of it. I like SFV stun over SF4 stun (despite stun being a poo poo mechanic as implemented in both games) because it's communicated better in SFV.

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Dec 25, 2002

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bebaloorpabopalo posted:

Why is guts considered "hidden"? It isn't explicitly mentioned in the tutorial? You can see the effect in training mode. Or is it the values are not clearly defined? Are all of the values for all of the things in Skullgirls defined in game?

Also it not at all unpredictable when you know about it and how it works, but I get the feeling you added that qualifier because Skullgirls has "hidden" things that are predictable, so they're fine?

Guts is considered hidden because at no point (save for 100% HP) can a player clearly predict how much damage their attacks will do due to the amount of overlapping behind the scenes math.

As an example, Skullgirls More Different introduced Drama, which was a combo length limitation system to complement the Infinite Prevention System. Every attack did a certain amount of Drama and it would drain at a specific rate when out of hitstun or blockstun. Skullgirls Unfinished Business put a meter onscreen to show how much Drama you had. This is the difference between bad implementation and good implementation.

It's just like what I said with stun in SF4 vs. stun in SFV. SFV shows stun visually, so it feels less random and less arbitrary. I hate the fact that stun is accumulated in situations other than counter-hits, as all it's good for at that point is allowing way too much damage, but it's still possible to make a lovely mechanic shittier by implementing it in a bad way.

The values for all things SG2E are defined and discernible from what you're doing. Defense modifiers don't exist, bonuses from things like taunts have clear visual indicators, IPS is obvious, physics don't change with combo length, and there's even a reset indicator. It's very easy to make up a combo on the fly and know that it'll work because you don't have to worry about hitstun decay loving with your poo poo. You can invest all your resources into a punish that looks like it'll kill without the risk of it arbitrarily not being able to kill due to fuckery between how much HP the opponent had left and how much HP it looked like they had. There are clear visual indicators of things like counter-hits, overheads, assist states, and so on. Nothing feels arbitrary outside of mixups and setups.


I'm sure Mike Z probably disagrees with half of what I say, given that he put Drama into MDE without a meter, he loves Guilty Gear which I loving hate, he thinks Filia isn't redundant, 3rd Strike is one of his favorite games which I think is a gigantic piece of poo poo, and he likes juggalo music which is objectively terrible. My viewpoints come from the position of somebody who plays and designs board games, so I prefer clear rules with as little bullshit in the way as possible.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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AnonSpore posted:

I wish guts was as transparent as that

poo poo, I wish MvC2's combo system was as transparent as "don't link into a button you've already used and don't link after the opponent's green bar is full." We still don't know the proper numbers for Undizzy.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Tuxedo Catfish posted:

People keep explaining the mechanical consequences of guts and all it's doing is convincing me it's a good thing

"oh no, we made a mechanic that encourages you to be more aggressive in a match that's already down to the line"

Because it's a pain in the rear end outside of that one thing it does. The same logic could be applied to Danger Time "oh no, we made a mechanic that encourages you to be more aggressive in neutral" or for X-Factor "oh no, we made a mechanic that makes more matches go down to the wire"

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Dec 25, 2002

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In Training posted:

I thought 3rd strike was cool until I realiEd that if someone actually knows how to play the game and when to parry it would probably become the most boring game in the world.

It's more that parries aren't an amazing display of dexterity and prediction so much as they are an almost risk-free thing you can OS into your footsies 100% of the time.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Pomp posted:



why is the throw range so loving smaaaaaalllllllll

I brought up SFV's throw ranges a couple times at locals and was told "throws are fine, that's just your opinion"

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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The best description I've heard of a Mortal Kombat game was during Evo 2014, when somebody said MK9 looked like a fake fighting game. As in, the kind being played on a TV show or in a movie because they couldn't get the rights to a real game or be bothered to learn how to get footage of decent people playing a real game.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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Wait, you made the transition from hitbox to stick? Why?

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Dec 25, 2002

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dangerdoom volvo posted:

polarity has a name with sperm in it now, thats how i remember

that makes so much sense jfc

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Dec 25, 2002

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More people think and can articulate that Hyper Fighting is a better game, but more people like Super Turbo more. Also, 99% of people can't distinguish between liking something and thinking that something is good.

HF probably is better, but ST is definitely more likeable.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Spermgod posted:

well since video games are entertainment there is no difference

you don't think any bad video games exist? weird.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Baal posted:

Yeah, that's what Pol's saying.

i mean, my point is that, since what games are good can be generally agreed upon by consensus through discussion, and what games somebody likes can literally be anything (see: people playing bad rats/sfxt/sfa3/mk9 unironically), claiming that "there is no difference between a good game and a game you like" is possibly the stupidest and most bizarre statement conceivable from somebody who constantly talks poo poo about games.

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Dec 25, 2002

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That's bullshit. There are definite objective criteria for what makes a game bad, so we can use those same criteria to define a negative space of a good game to at least a point enough to reach a general consensus.

If your point is "everything is subjective, even basic things you take for granted like whether or not the game loads or whether the game requires player input to be completed," then congratulations on being a lovely edgelord?

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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For those of you attending CEO this upcoming weekend, it's hoagiefest at Wawa. All hoagies are $5.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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The current Humble Bundle is Neo Geo-themed.

https://twitter.com/focusattack/sta...058869160873984

It has Neo Turf Masters, Metal Slugs 1-3, 2000, Twinkle Star Sprites, and 98989898989898.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

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punk rebel ecks posted:

This may sound very stupid, but I'm going to ask it anyway.


Why do fighting games have timers? I mean I could understand the point of them in the old arcade days because shop owners wouldn't want matches to last TOO long, but what is the point of having a timer today? I feel that it spoils a lot of good matches.

The timer forces players to attack. That's it.

If you take damage, you HAVE to at least do more damage than what you took or you'll lose to the timer. Logically, this means both players are almost always trying to kill the other.


You may as well ask why winning and losing are in the game.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Garnavis posted:

Has anyone, as a beginner, actually found those "controlling space" breakdown videos useful? I'm starting to think they only make sense to players who are already experienced. They always give the example of Ryu controlling a horizontal band with fireballs and a the air in front of him with DPs. But I rarely feel like I actually control any of that space, since opponents can just block or jump over or counter-fireball my fireballs, and I don't really control the space in front of me because I can't get a fireball off safely if they're right there. The point being, it doesn't feel like any space is being "controlled" and the stuff I end up thinking about in a match is poke ranges and mix ups and stuff like that. So am I just playing FGs wrong or is the whole "controlling space" idea just a nice abstraction that's not helpful for beginners?

Play ST Sim for a while and then go back to your old main and game.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Real hurthling! posted:

Has there ever been a fighter that communicates frame data into its visual design either as a training mode option or in the actual gameplay? something like block sparks in different colors depending on how punishable or safe a move is?

SG has a hitstun bar, realtime framedata calculator*, and visual framedata display.

*The NRS framedata readouts in Injustice/MK/etc were read from a database instead of calculated on the fly, so they ended up being outdated once patches hit and not compensating for things like land-cancelling an aerial move, etc.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Endorph posted:

honestly i'd be fine with smash if melee just dropped down to two stocks like smash 4

I've been a huge fan of this ever since that one Evo where literally the only matches in Top 8 Melee that weren't won by the person who took the first stock were won by Wobbles doing his ToD.

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Dec 25, 2002

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I hate the concept of hand warmers. They're not even making up excuses for it at that point.

To those who don't know what a hand warmer is, you know how sometimes a player will do an ingame button check but instead of pressing each button and then going back to character select they'll just stay in the match and practice their BnB or whatever? That's a hand warmer. It's literally just a way to loving waste time at tournaments in spite of the fact that Smash runs longer than every other game already.



Game Industry Rule #1: Make sure you own your IP.

No money from this is going to Indivisible, although if it's successful enough it could result in an SG2. Labzero isn't even the one making this-- Autumn hired another studio and they're bringing L0 in occasionally as consultants.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Dec 25, 2002

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bad metaphors posted:

Emptyquote this post if you'd be interested in a goon tournament for windjammers or any fightcade game really (ST???????) sometime this week and top 3 gets a $15 steam game or a consolation av cert or w/e provided by your valued forums pal, bad metaphors

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Dec 25, 2002

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put me down for windjammers or twinkle star sprites

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Dec 25, 2002

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Xeom posted:

Over 20 matches and two wins. I see what people mean now.
These games have no play skill gradient at the lower level. There is literally an ocean between a new player and even the lowest tier.
Maybe its the lack of players at the bottom, but god drat not even RTSs are this bad.

I can have someone login to SC2 right now who has only played RTS a few times, and within a few matches have them win some.
Mostly because there will be someone at their skill level, and because the game is not completely opaque.

Even at the rookie tier I'm facing people with solid fundamentals. This poo poo is going to be a real loving slog.

dhamster posted:

Losing can teach you more than winning sometimes. Try giving yourself a mini objective to shoot for in each round, like pulling off a certain basic hit confirm a few times. Keep getting blown up by jump ins? Learn a good anti air option for your character and try to land it cleanly a few times during the match.

dhamster's advice is the best you'll hear, and here's why:
Winning is closer to a dish than it is to just how you cook. There are multiple ingredients to it, they have to be mixed correctly, they have to be cooked correctly, and then they have to be served correctly. You can alter the presentation of the dish if you want, and it'll help sometimes, but that won't take away the necessity of the other bits.

For now, while you're starting out, focus on pieces of the fight. Focus on learning the spacing of your moves. Focus on understanding what habits you have. Focus on what habits your opponent has. Don't drop your BnB and don't do unsafe poo poo without a very good reason. Focus on each of these tidbits one at a time until you internalize them enough to keep more or all of them in mind.

Eventually, you'll realize that you're winning 4 or maybe 6 out of 20 instead of 2 out of 20. It'll still feel hard and bad, and progress will seem glacial. But as you keep more tidbits in mind, you'll be able to focus on things like how to counter your opponent's habits, how long it takes them to adapt to your counter, and so on. Suddenly you're winning 10 out of 20. It still looks like you're not winning the majority of the time, but progress never looks fast enough when you're doing something that requires actual work.

To get out of pools in Street Fighter 5 at Evo, I think you had to win something like 15 or 16 2/3 sets in a row. 25% of the people playing didn't win a single set. Fighting games are hard, but they're incredibly rewarding. Keep at it, and you'll reap what you sow.

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Dec 25, 2002

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bebaloorpabopalo posted:

Actually to get to top 8 it was just winning 10 or 11 (without losing) to be in winners depending on if you got a bye or not.

Well actually, given that Xeom is a #4 seed in the Capcom Cup Pro Tour,

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Dec 25, 2002

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dragon enthusiast posted:

Skullgirls has the frame data crawl in training mode, so they could technically be able to provide this kind of feedback in combo trials, but for whatever reason they don't even at least provide the option to enable it for the player.

That option was actually in development before the combo trials were added to 2nd Encore, but they couldn't afford to make UI for it. It's up to Mike Z if he puts that into a future game.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Ventana posted:

This is more silly bullshit but I still love this moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1y0GHygLrM#t=7433s

One of the only downsides of Combo Breaker was that the commentary mics were being piped to the crowd, which is a huge pet peeve to myself and almost every other commentator I know. It encourages you to try to dumb down what you're saying to hype up the audience and not say anything that could spoil the match or coach the players. Moving forward, I'm just gonna pretend the commentary is stream-exclusive (like I did during set 3 of Saturday Night Salt) because there's no point in trying to cater to the crowd.


Commissar Ken posted:

I think all this proves is that CvS1 is the superior game, what with Bison having that sick looking dash punch and all the stage intros and cooler stages.


CvS1 had awful, almost unplayable balance issues. Set character ratios didn't account for how good the individual characters were, Nakoruru in particular was a loving mess, S-Groove wasn't very good, stages constantly had poo poo in the foreground, and the 4-button setup was a pain in the rear end. CvS2 improved upon CvS1 in almost every conceivable way, with the lone exception of the CvS2 announcer being just as good as the CvS1 announcer instead of better.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Real hurthling! posted:

what do people do with the skullgirls team/assist system? did the meta move in a particular direction or are teams with 1 character just as common as teams with 2 or 3?

Sonic won the CEO2016 side tournament with solo Fukua.

Everything is good. Trio is really standard but you see a fair few really good duo players (like LazyDiablos, Swiftfox-dash, and 159man). Dekillsage and Sonicfox have a ton of teams they each play, and Sonic is currently on a mission to demonstrate that solos are good by winning with them.

Solo Big Band is notorious for being extremely effective online and very random offline. In order to make it out of pools, you will eventually have to learn how to beat Solo Big Band. They will random you out if you are not consistent.


Reiley posted:

Is Squigly a viable solo character? I don't have the brains for team management but I really like Squigs and her stance mechanic.

Most Squigly players use a team because she gets a ton of mileage off of assists, her assists are great, her DHCs are safe, and she can do lots of different team-based setups. As a solo, Squigly's biggest buff is that her damage output goes through the roof. Squigly's problem as a solo is a significant reduction in reversal options-- she either has to spend a Dragon stance charge or a meter for true reversal options.

The stupid stuff Squigs can do is all the more effective in solo. If you have Dragon charge and a meter you basically don't have to play neutral-- Sing xx SBO or Sing xx Daisy are both unblockable after the sing startup since it counts as a super flash. You drop out of people's combos all the time because you have a tiny hurtbox. You can low profile pretty much everything. You have a tracking low projectile. You have a divekick. She's really good, but that's SG. Give her a try.

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Dec 25, 2002

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Ventana posted:

The truth is, Solos are just "scarier" to play since they don't get Incoming mixups (which forcibly give players a chance to block a mixup when they're losing in the corner) or Alpha counters, and assists just make things safer. But the risk can definitely be worth it, and there are times where Solo definitely can be very beneficial.

Ask Me About Dropping Combos/Having My Resets Blocked Against A Solo On Stream And Losing Half My Team Because Of It: My Combo Breaker Story

(I have problems in exhibitions, though. My streamed set against ShinATProof's solo Val was just as much of a travesty, not to mention that was an online cross-country connection. At least I do well in tournament!)


punk rebel ecks posted:

Mike Z said she was getting a reversal at Salty according to the dozens of people watching. I also don't get the criticisms of Robo's "lack of zoning" with her lazers. They can be very effective as long as she is very mobile.

Also Robo needs a reversal because she is powerless once hit. Nothing is worse in Skullgirls than Robo in a corner.

I suppose the jig is up if he's saying things. Magnet is going to get invuln so it's a true reversal. She'll still have to spend meter. There are a bunch of other incoming Robo changes but I'm not allowed to speak about them.

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Dec 25, 2002

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may contain peanuts posted:

Sorry for running onto the stage and hugging your opponent immediately after you lost. Hope we're still friends.

I'm still laughing at how salty I made Negus, who bet agasinst me getting the first hit

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