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Madmarker posted:Thanks for the spoiler warning....but I doubt its actually necessary. Thanks to ff7 remake and taro being taro, the "nier remake" is probably a 3rd possible timeline compared to the original gestalt and replicant and is also a direct sequel to the ending where 2B swallows the fish and dies in automata. Haha, very true: I'm still debating on whether I should get the remake as I'm unsure if they'll go down this route, because if they don't, then one, I've already played the game many times very recently, and two, it's not dad nier (though playing as bro nier could be a new perspective, I guess, but I can't imagine it changing that much, just like how switching to 9S didn't change that much). Hikaki posted:Thanks, I enjoyed watching this. Yeah, definitely, I think it's pretty valid that Automata, and Nier games in general, have a bit of a slow start. I guess it just comes down to the ol' argument that Nier Automata is one of those games where "it gets good X hours in" and for some people that's totally fine and worth it, but others would prefer a game get good immediately and stay good. I'm totally in the camp of wanting games to just start good and not require an inordinate investment to figure out if it's going to work for you, but for me, even though I did have a lot of complaints in my playthrough, I had to admit that there was something to the game that made it a bit more memorable instead of annoying in my mind, so it worked in the end. BiggestOrangeTree posted:It's essentially like a walking simulator except with fights, in this essay I will Haha, pretty much the opening statement from my repetition section, thanks for watching my TED talk
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Dec 18, 2020 18:05
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Hikaki posted:Your section on Ending E touched upon something I found interesting with both Nier games, which is that they use a strategy of subversion to strengthen the impact of the finale. I had never played Nier 1 so in the early hours, there was a lot in Automata that indicated it was going to be another cliche JRPG with pandering sexy characters until I realized later in the game that it was much more than that. Playing Nier 1 afterwards, I noticed it had a similar approach of presenting a pretty bland hero's quest in the early game and then turning it on its head later. That made me think about the "bad" parts of both games; things like the repetition, obtuse mechanics, and off-putting early presentation are weak points when taken at face value, but I think they might be a necessary setup for the emotional climax that the games are shooting for. I think of "art" games as games that sacrifice what you would traditionally call "good" gameplay in favor of desired aesthetics, story, or emotional impact, so in this sense I view both Niers as more in that category than any other. This is the same type of set up Spec Ops: The Line used which grabbed everyone's attention. The beginning sets it up as another Oorah! jingoistic run & gun, and even uses the same kind of generic Gears of War-esk 3rd person wall cover combat. Then it hits you with a psychological bomb taken straight out of Apocalypse Now.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:10
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I don't really get the idea that Nier:A takes a while to get good. It definitely takes a while to reach its climax (Route C insanity), but the game was pretty much good the whole way through to me. The intro mission is cool and has a great first boss. The desert has This Cannot Continue which immediately ramps up the mystery and unnerving quality to the machines. The amusement park is really, really cool and Simone is one of the most iconic bosses of the past decade, and her fight introduces the hacking minigame which is just really neat aesthetically. Like maybe I'm in the minority, but a mysterious sci-fi fantasy RPG where you know the protagonists are engaging in some form of doublethink, all the NPCs are named after philosophers, and the combat is done by Platinum Studios is basically a dream game to me. Also Keiichi Okabe's music.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:23
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It's less that it takes a while to get good and more that it takes a while to show its hand. Route A felt like a lot of disconnected nonsense at first. Intriguing nonsense, stuff that made me want to keep going, but I was still a bit lost on what the game was going to be during it.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:24
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Cephas posted:I don't really get the idea that Nier:A takes a while to get good. It definitely takes a while to reach its climax (Route C insanity), but the game was pretty much good the whole way through to me. The intro mission is cool and has a great first boss. The desert has This Cannot Continue which immediately ramps up the mystery and unnerving quality to the machines. The amusement park is really, really cool and Simone is one of the most iconic bosses of the past decade, and her fight introduces the hacking minigame which is just really neat aesthetically. I love anime and weird ethereal atmospheres in games so the city ruins and its theme was all it took for me.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:27
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Arist posted:It's less that it takes a while to get good and more that it takes a while to show its hand. Route A felt like a lot of disconnected nonsense at first. Intriguing nonsense, stuff that made me want to keep going, but I was still a bit lost on what the game was going to be during it. This sums it up well, yeah. It's a grower not a shower. I remember first playing it thinking "this doesn't seem all It's cracked up to be" and deciding that people liked it in retrospect and I didn't think whatever was waiting at the end of the road would justify that level of love people had for it. Then I got there and it it did!
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Dec 18, 2020 18:30
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It doesn't help that the worst part of Automata is the prologue where you're just learning the game and everything is confusing and you can't save yet.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:32
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I finished this through ending E recently, went in knowing nothing about the game beyond "anime chick with big sword" and not having played any of the previous Nier games it took a while for it to click but by when it did by god it did, absolutely one of the best games of its generation and beyond. should I wait for the Nier remake to play that or can/should I play the original, if that's possible on PS4?
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Dec 18, 2020 18:54
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I don't get when the consensus suddenly became that Nier Automata's gameplay is bad. Like, it's certainly no Bayonetta or DMCV, the boss fights later on in the game are definitely lacking, and the difficulty options suck, it but it's still a pretty fun action RPG
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Dec 18, 2020 18:54
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my bony fealty posted:I finished this through ending E recently, went in knowing nothing about the game beyond "anime chick with big sword" and not having played any of the previous Nier games you can't play the original on PS4, unless it's on PSNow or something. I think you're safe to wait for the remake. Original is cool but has some big issues, especially compared to Automata. Story was still great though.
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Dec 18, 2020 18:56
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Augus posted:I don't get when the consensus suddenly became that Nier Automata's gameplay is bad. Like, it's certainly no Bayonetta or DMCV, the boss fights later on in the game are definitely lacking, and the difficulty options suck, it but it's still a pretty fun action RPG There is an internet thing where it’s the best around or poo poo. Games like Nier which are fine have no place
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Dec 18, 2020 19:03
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The unfortunate thing about the remake is that people don't get to experience the joy and despair of playing as Dad Nier. I can see how it's not for everyone but that's fine. It ticked all my boxes for me and that's all I care about. It would probably have been the best game I played last year if I didn't also plow through BotW during the summer.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:20
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Automata's gameplay is just fine. Its the folks who go on about how deep it is and its god's gift to action games who are super annoying. Sure you can get really into combos and stuff or you can just gain a couple levels and spam attack and dodge. It's no Bayonetta or DMC where the gameplay is the centerpoint. The level of gameplay I want in a Nier game at this point is "good enough that it doesn't feel awful to try to get to the next cool story point or setpiece". Automata is there, OG Nier was definitely not (though I did complete it), so I look forward to the remake too. The chunkiness of Nier combat fit pretty well with reluctant idiot Dad stumbling across the world fighting shadows even though it felt not great to play. It being all smooth with a young protag will be weird.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:21
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Nina posted:New Ending E where nothing else changes but the city teleports into Drakengard to finally close that loop That happened in the timespan between the opening and Nier proper though
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Dec 18, 2020 19:24
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Huh, I never heard about people talking about how deep the combat is since it's really, really simplistic compared to other Platinum games. From what I understand Yoko Taro wanted everyone to be able to get through the game which is why it's like that, and if anything I remember people complaining about it. I thought the combat served its purpose, especially since the setting and atmosphere was a much bigger draw for me.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:25
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So, I'm thinking about restarting this since last playing it a couple years ago. I recall getting to the desert area and after a while was completely lost. Like, the map was no help and couldn't figure it out and quit. Is this common or am I stupid?
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Dec 18, 2020 19:26
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Your first time through the desert all you need to do is follow the pipes in the sand. Or your objective marker IIRC. But yeah, the map sucks.
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Dec 18, 2020 19:32
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For me the combat system was more about doing cool flashy things than mastering intricate combos and tight timings, but then again I played on Normal like a sane person.
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Dec 18, 2020 21:27
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my bony fealty posted:I finished this through ending E recently, went in knowing nothing about the game beyond "anime chick with big sword" and not having played any of the previous Nier games OG Nier is only on the PS3/XBOX 360 unfortunately. If you have one of those consoles then I highly recommend playing it since the remake is Brother Nier only and Papa Nier is a treasure. I'm not sure what else the remake is changing, but knowing Yoko there's bound to be something. If you don't have one of those consoles, then The Dark Id did an amazing LP of it over on the LP Archive. Edit: If you're into  then I know the PS3 roms floating around work pretty well.
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Dec 18, 2020 22:40
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If I remember right you can’t get Nier on the PS3 store so you have to track down a disc too.
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Dec 18, 2020 22:42
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Yea, same thing for the Xbox. I tried to see if it was available on the digitial store, and it's not. It's disc only no matter what.
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Dec 18, 2020 22:43
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Cephas posted:I don't really get the idea that Nier:A takes a while to get good. It definitely takes a while to reach its climax (Route C insanity), but the game was pretty much good the whole way through to me. Yeah, I say there are "bad" parts but I also enjoyed pretty much the entire thing. I think part of the problem is people like me who will proclaim that Nier:A is an 11/10 game, leading others to try it and be left confused when the first few hours are a 7/10 game in both gameplay and story (which is not bad at all). The more hype there is, the more the flaws stand out, especially when you haven't experienced the real meat of the game yet. And even if you have, the meat is so good that in comparison the potatoes seem worse than they are in reality. Then you have DMC and Bayonetta that actually have 10/10 gameplay and they're so similar that it becomes easy to criticize Nier for not reaching the same levels, even though Nier's focus is on something entirely different.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:21
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Coxswain Balls posted:Huh, I never heard about people talking about how deep the combat is since it's really, really simplistic compared to other Platinum games. From what I understand Yoko Taro wanted everyone to be able to get through the game which is why it's like that, and if anything I remember people complaining about it. The thing about Automata's combat is that it does have depth. If you look up combo videos, you can see how the on-the-fly weapon switching, various pod programs, hidden inputs, and chip abilities all come together to allow you to do some really cool stuff. The catch is that the game gives you no incentive to do that (outside of maybe some DLC arena fights) beyond "it looks cool", because the level system takes away the necessity in tough fights and the lack of a score system means the game doesn't encourage you to learn the more complicated mechanics.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:28
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I only noticed this in retrospect, but the boss fights in this game are severely lacking. I feel like Simone was the pinnacle and every other boss was way too repetitive and staged to feel like a "real" boss fight. This is especially true for the shmup sequence bosses, but even the really dope cinematic ones like the tower twin orbs are mostly just grooving to the music and camera work while you do entirely obligatory amounts of damage to the boss, triggering the next camera change. They could have been a little more interesting.
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Dec 18, 2020 23:41
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I really liked Hegel because youre just getting into A2 and take down a few of the big arm swingy guys and you are her both are like "lol that's it? nbd" and then the big rolly ball guy pops up and then it prompts you to go berserk and then youre constantly mashing health restore buttons while going ohfuckohfuckohfuck because you don't know what happens when berserk ends thats more about the situation than the boss monster itself I guess which was relatively meh but as an encounter its ace
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Dec 19, 2020 04:21
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chiasaur11 posted:The thing about Automata's combat is that it does have depth. If you look up combo videos, you can see how the on-the-fly weapon switching, various pod programs, hidden inputs, and chip abilities all come together to allow you to do some really cool stuff. It's this, the actual combat system itself has plenty of depth to play around with and be a ton of fun if you're the type to enjoy styling just for the sake of it but the leveling systems and enemies themselves being incredibly simplistic in attack patterns just isn't conducive to cueing you into the knowledge that it's there and just doesn't push you one bit to engage with the systems unless you dig deep on your own.
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Dec 19, 2020 05:38
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my bony fealty posted:I really liked Hegel because youre just getting into A2 and take down a few of the big arm swingy guys and you are her both are like "lol that's it? nbd" and then the big rolly ball guy pops up and then it prompts you to go berserk and then youre constantly mashing health restore buttons while going ohfuckohfuckohfuck because you don't know what happens when berserk ends Yeah that was my least favorite because it was too hard. Lol. But I agree that it was an actual boss fight, with the potential for screwing up or not reading the pattern and losing etc.
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Dec 19, 2020 05:53
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Boogalo posted:Automata's gameplay is just fine. Its the folks who go on about how deep it is and its god's gift to action games who are super annoying. Yeah ok I kinda get what you're saying now.
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Dec 19, 2020 06:02
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You CAN do all sorts of crazy things with the combat, it's just that you don't need to get creative at all so 99% of people who played it would never do stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Eh0jbddmk&t=121s COMBO MAD
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Dec 19, 2020 06:37
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my bony fealty posted:I really liked Hegel because youre just getting into A2 and take down a few of the big arm swingy guys and you are her both are like "lol that's it? nbd" and then the big rolly ball guy pops up and then it prompts you to go berserk and then youre constantly mashing health restore buttons while going ohfuckohfuckohfuck because you don't know what happens when berserk ends The game introducing the berserk mechanic at the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT is funny in retrospect but gently caress was it frustrating actually playing it
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Dec 19, 2020 08:26
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I used berserker that one time, died right away, and then never again. What a game
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Dec 19, 2020 08:50
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I know "They did it wrong on purpose" isn't a satisfying answer, but given the game's themes, it may not be an accident that the character with anger issues (and a mechanic that uses that anger) is punished for giving in to her worst impulses.
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Dec 19, 2020 09:09
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Noper Q posted:I know "They did it wrong on purpose" isn't a satisfying answer, but given the game's themes, it may not be an accident that the character with anger issues (and a mechanic that uses that anger) is punished for giving in to her worst impulses. I can believe it's intentional, but I think it's a case where the narrative payout isn't quite enough to make up for the mechanical frustration. (And I say that as someone willing to go to bat for the opening sequence.)
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Dec 19, 2020 09:39
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chiasaur11 posted:I can believe it's intentional, but I think it's a case where the narrative payout isn't quite enough to make up for the mechanical frustration. (And I say that as someone willing to go to bat for the opening sequence.) I can see that, but yeah, it's not as strong as the way they accomplish the same point using the Red Girls fight (which is great).
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Dec 19, 2020 10:15
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If you have the DLC, berserk's one and only use case is in the final level of the arena where you can stack berserk, offensive/deadly heal, and taunt up to become a whirlwind of death. It's the only part of the game where enough beefy enemies are constantly coming at you to maintain your HP through vampire chips, and where the extra damage is actually necessary to complete the level before time runs out. I believe Taro did this on purpose to show that anger and senseless violence should be punished, except when used to win trivial games.
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Dec 19, 2020 10:48
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Berserk is really useful and honestly makes the combat too easy in a lot of places, though. It's just a poorly balanced game with at best OK gameplay, there's no deeper meaning behind it.
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Dec 19, 2020 14:29
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So, uhhhh https://twitter.com/manfightdragon/status/1345615588106780672
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Jan 3, 2021 07:36
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I wonder if that's actually that last secret that the team talked about a while back. If it is, I can see why they were hoping it wouldn't be found. Being able to loop a save that fast kinda takes some of the impact out of the ending.
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Jan 3, 2021 07:58
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chiasaur11 posted:I wonder if that's actually that last secret that the team talked about a while back. seems so https://twitter.com/yokotaro/status/1345714490067746816?s=19
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Jan 3, 2021 14:31
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https://twitter.com/NieRGame/status/1345725199900155909 It's cool when a developer actually gives props like this for someone finding stuff like this.
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Jan 3, 2021 15:25
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