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Black Panther and Thor should probably be exempt from The Accords due to diplomatic immunity.
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Apr 30, 2016 10:40
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Bigsteve posted:I thought it was pretty much announced that Tony Stark is in this? There's also the ANT-MAN sequel, which will be interesting as Scott is now a fugitive. There's a lot of places they can go with the next slate of films coming up. You're not going to see anything in DOCTOR STRANGE I'm sure, but I would expect SPIDER-MAN and BLACK PANTHER to deal with the fallout, I'd say the post-credit scenes seems to explicitly deal with this.
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Apr 30, 2016 10:44
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Black Panther and Thor should probably be exempt from The Accords due to diplomatic immunity. Wakanda signed the Accords. Ergo, Black Panther obeys them too. Thor, probably not. Unless someone faxed it to Asgard.
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Apr 30, 2016 10:56
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Wakanda signed the Accords. Ergo, Black Panther obeys them too. Well apart from those times where he made an unauthorized foray into Siberia to attack a supervillain and ended up harboring a bunch of superhumans who refused to sign the Accords, of course.
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Apr 30, 2016 11:04
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He's the King now so if he decides to withdraw from them or not implement them in his country he could make that call.
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Apr 30, 2016 11:18
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Captain America is a patriotic superhero who dresses in the red, white, and blue. Created to fight enemies foreign and domestic, Captain America embodies everything noble about America. Captain America: Civil War, however, is hardly at all about America. Most characters are Americans, and there are scenes set in America. But crucially, the movie is hardly at all about what it means to be American. The closest the movie gets to being about the American experience is that it's hero defies the tyranny of a UN mandate to fight his own battle for justice. The UN mandate could hinder the Avengers' fight against evil, but this is never verified or denied. In fact, the movie is not at all interested in how it could hinder saving people and fighting evil. Instead, Captain America wants to prove that the authorities are wrong about his brainwashed Nazi assassin friend. This is his cause. It trumps fighting ISIS, the imperial ambitions of Russia and China, and stateside crime and corruption. The movie is also not about being a superhero. After an initial foray into heroics, the narrative is mostly uninterested in fighting evil. The heroes instead scuffle with each other over political and personal disagreements. Batman v Superman featured a similar set-up, but had the sense to cap things off with a battle against a horrible alien monster that wants to kill everyone. Civil War doesn't have anything to redeem its heroes. If anything, the villain is proven right. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 11:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Captain America is a patriotic superhero who dresses in the red, white, and blue. Created to fight enemies foreign and domestic, Captain America embodies everything noble about America.
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Apr 30, 2016 12:08
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Cardboard Box A posted:This makes the movie sound very interesting Don't worry it's not. There's punching though.
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Apr 30, 2016 12:19
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The movie is also not about being a superhero. After an initial foray into heroics, the narrative is mostly uninterested in fighting evil. The heroes instead scuffle with each other over political and personal disagreements. Batman v Superman featured a similar set-up, but had the sense to cap things off with a battle against a horrible alien monster that wants to kill everyone. Civil War doesn't have anything to redeem its heroes. If anything, the villain is proven right. Following on that, I hated how the movie decided to retroactively makes its stakes super low by the end. Zemo's plan is not to have five Winter Soldiers to use as he sees fit, but just to make Steve and Tony mad at each other, which has been the second act of literally every Avengers movie so far. How am I supposed to buy that this one is the big one, when they've made peace with each other twice already, and, in fact, also make up this time too, with Steve giving Tony that phone? It feels like nothing really happened, but now Spider-Man and Black Panther are here now
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Apr 30, 2016 12:23
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I saw this film, and thought it was on par with Avengers 2. Not really a great or memorable film, but not awful. I did feel like it suffered from character bloat, there were too many characters to spend a decent amount of time with them even before they decided to start randomly bringing in the new ones. Giant Ant man wasn't as goofy as it should have been somehow, but I didn't like spider-mans actor and found his character to be annoying. I think I even preferred the Garfield version
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Apr 30, 2016 12:37
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Cardboard Box A posted:This makes the movie sound very interesting Unfortunately, it ain't. But Panther and Spiderman are fun to watch 
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Apr 30, 2016 12:48
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PaybackJack posted:He's the King now so if he decides to withdraw from them or not implement them in his country he could make that call. This. The Accords were about making sure the Avengers don't act without consent of the countries affected by their actions. Black Panther has always been the protector of Wakanda, so if he wants to put on his costume and go rough up vibranium thieves like Klaw, you bet your rear end he's within his jurisdiction to do it. It's also a nice way to explain why the Avengers will be just cameos in Spider-Man's film: there will be a crisis in New York, but because of the Accords, the only one who can deal with it is Spider-Man, the Avengers will appear at the end because big government means also slower response times. About the accountability of the Avengers as a whole, I feel it is a non-issue: War Machine is still part of the US Air Force, so he's still within their chain of command. Cap, Falcon, Widow and Hawkeye are normal-ish people, who could still be restrained without a super-powered response. The only ones who couldn't be held accountable are Vision (who's pretty easy to reason with) Wanda (who still has many vulnerabilities despite her bullshit powers) and Iron Man. Really, the entire thing is Iron Man's fault: Sokovia was destroyed because of his hubris, and the only reason he's untouchable is because of his money. That's why I'm with Cap on denouncing the whole Accords as bullshit: it's more the governments trying to look like they're doing something, instead of admitting that the only reason they're letting Tony Stark go free is because he's a multi-millionaire, and under the current system rich people can do whatever they want.
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Apr 30, 2016 13:48
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Honest Thief posted:Unfortunately, it ain't. But Panther and Spiderman are fun to watch Yeah, the movie is technically excellent, and provides some entertainment if you enjoy hearing Spideybanter, but the story is kind of a mess when you think about it for too long. I like the idea of it, but all that really ends up happening at the end is that there's two Avengers teams and we've had that happening for ages in comics. All it really did in those books was give me superhero fatigue, and this was the first movie I felt actually gave me that despite the plethora of movies we've seen already with essentially the same plots. I've seen pretty much all the movies aside from the bad Thor one, and had every intention of seeing every movie in the Marvel universe up to this point. But after this movie, I'm not so sure anymore. Again, not because it was bad, but because I need to see something new, as I'm not as invested in these characters as I am, say, Spidey, because he's a new-ish character in the universe and he's different from how we saw him in the last few movies. Edit:vvv The first one wasn't awful. evilmiera fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 13:53
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evilmiera posted:I've seen pretty much all the movies aside from the bad Thor one, You'll have to be more specific.
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Apr 30, 2016 14:03
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Kal-L posted:Really, the entire thing is Iron Man's fault: Sokovia was destroyed because of his hubris, and the only reason he's untouchable is because of his money. That's why I'm with Cap on denouncing the whole Accords as bullshit: it's more the governments trying to look like they're doing something, instead of admitting that the only reason they're letting Tony Stark go free is because he's a multi-millionaire, and under the current system rich people can do whatever they want. Nope, it's Scarlet Witch's fault. Ultron was her creation - Stark's normally not that crazy. But Stark on the edge of insanity from guilt and fear, courtesy of Scarlet Witch? Cap is a super soldier who can't stop fighting the war, even if the war is over.
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Apr 30, 2016 14:42
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A thing I don't get about the movie is why Cap's buddies agree to help him catch Bucky when they know they'd be breaking the law. Although Cap and Iron Man have an ideological disagreement over the Accords at the start, that's not what the rest of the movie is really about. It's about Cap wanting to protect a wanted terrorist from the government. Bucky is Cap's best friend, but he's not the best friend of Cap's followers. What do they get out of following Cap?
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Apr 30, 2016 15:18
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Kurzon posted:A thing I don't get about the movie is why Cap's buddies agree to help him catch Bucky when they know they'd be breaking the law. Although Cap and Iron Man have an ideological disagreement over the Accords at the start, that's not what the rest of the movie is really about. It's about Cap wanting to protect a wanted terrorist from the government. Bucky is Cap's best friend, but he's not the best friend of Cap's followers. What do they get out of following Cap? The only person who helps him get Bucky in the beginning is Falcon. Sharon Carter gives him intel but Falcon is the only person who helps try to get Bucky out of Budapest, and he does that because he's Cap's friend and feels like Cap would do it for him. Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye show up later to help because Hawkeye owes Scarlet Witch and Tony puts her under house arrest against her wishes and unlawfully. So they join when they see that Cap is right about how their lives could be controlled by the government and how awful that would be. Black Widow switches sides when she realizes that Cap is trying to use Bucky to help stop another bad guy and being the rogue spy type realizes that they can't wait for the Accords to let them go take down that threat because they're on the clock. PaybackJack fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 15:56
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If you've watched the other movies I'd say it's pretty self evident, except maybe Antman's motivations. Everything about Sharon Carter was awful though. Like, bottom tier fan fiction levels of bad. Thankfully there's very few affected scenes. Renoistic fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 15:57
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Is Ant-Man's motivation that he is star struck and also a bit of a dumb dumb?
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Apr 30, 2016 15:59
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Pretty much, yeah.
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Apr 30, 2016 16:00
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Falcon basically tells him he's on reserve as an Avenger in his movie, so it's not completely out of the blue like they've never had any interactions about it.
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Apr 30, 2016 16:04
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Just watched it, liked it. Personally I thought Tony was right, but for the wrong reasons. I mean, he was clearly emotionally compromised, (as was Cap, admittedly) so he went about things in entirely the wrong way. If Cap was leading the Accords team things would have been very different, and in the end Tony was just a really bad leader. I don't think you'd stick Vision on the Accords team if you don't want to admit the Accords have a point, in the end. I liked the final fight, also. I like how Cap beats Tony in the end because Tony assumed Cap was trying to kill him when he wasn't. This was way better than the comics. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 16:04
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Grendels Dad posted:Is Ant-Man's motivation that he is star struck and also a bit of a dumb dumb? Yes and it the same for Spider Man.
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Apr 30, 2016 16:27
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I have seen this movie and enjoyed it. Lots of cool fight scenes and jokes and balls to anyone who tries to read too much into a big dumb superhero movie.
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Apr 30, 2016 16:59
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Saw this in japann. Accidentally got the dubbed showing instead of the sub one so it was hard to follow. As best i could tell iron man was 'baka' and winter soldier is 'cho kawaii'. The best part of the movie was black panther being replaced by a cgi mr popo. It felt absurd at first but then i started to dig it. All in all id give it a 3 and a half 'better then bvs's
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Apr 30, 2016 17:21
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agatona posted:
To be fair, this was totally worth it for Bucky and Falcon's bro-nod after the kiss.
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Apr 30, 2016 17:42
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Renoistic posted:If you've watched the other movies I'd say it's pretty self evident, except maybe Antman's motivations.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:16
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Kurzon posted:Hawkeye's motivations aren't clear to me. He's got a family to take care of. He can't afford to go rogue. That's one of the parts that feels like it was left on the cutting room floor. However, given that Wanda's brother saved his life, he probably figured he could wipe the slate clean. Though to be fair I don't think that anyone expected that what would happen would actually happen. They've been acting as a law unto themselves since they first became a unit, so it makes sense that they all figured they'd be fine (Hell some of them don't even take the fight that seriously given that its noted he's pulling his punches).
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Apr 30, 2016 18:36
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Jerkface posted:Saw this in japann. Accidentally got the dubbed showing instead of the sub one so it was hard to follow.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:37
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Kurzon posted:Hawkeye's motivations aren't clear to me. He's got a family to take care of. He can't afford to go rogue. I'm not sure they're entirely clear to him either, he was just futzing around during the airport fight, Scarlet Witch even called him out on pulling his punches.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:42
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Kurzon posted:Hawkeye's motivations aren't clear to me. He's got a family to take care of. He can't afford to go rogue. I guess one angle is that Hawkeye doesn't like the potential of being controlled and forced to do things he doesn't want to. See e.g. Loki, and the whole thing with SHIELD. He also recruited Wanda into this whole business, and doesn't like the idea of Stark holding her captive. (Especially if you recall that keeping Tony in check is Wanda's main motivation for joining the Avengers.) I think the film also suggests he just genuinely likes Steve Rogers as a person way more than he does Tony Stark. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Apr 30, 2016 |
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Apr 30, 2016 18:47
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Steve2911 posted:This is a poo poo team. It is, which is the point. The villain gloats at the end that he's pretty much won by essentially crippling the Avengers completely.
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Apr 30, 2016 18:55
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He mentioned something about retirement not really suiting him, which makes sense after a year of just living in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere.
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Apr 30, 2016 19:01
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Crossbones seemed designed entirely to appeal to my teenage self. Oh my god this guy's big and beefy and has cool black armour and skullpaint and a gas mask and sounds deep and has big power armour gauntlets and a machine gun and and and and and  Will cheerfully admit I appreciate poo poo like this still appeals to me. Black Panther was a lot more interesting than I thought he'd be as well, so I'm curious about his inevitable stand alone film.
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Apr 30, 2016 19:33
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Cythereal posted:Nope, it's Scarlet Witch's fault. Ultron was her creation - Stark's normally not that crazy. But Stark on the edge of insanity from guilt and fear, courtesy of Scarlet Witch? It's not the barman's fault if the drunk gets in the car and causes an accident. It was all Tony who decided to create Ultron without telling the others (except Banner, who still voiced a protest). If the UN was really that mad about Sokovia, all Tony had to do was come clean about Ultron and face his punishment alone, instead of trying to spread it out to everyone else. The Accords were just a dumb stop-gag measure that would've resulted on the Avengers confined to their swanky headquarters because there would've always been some big nation opposing their interference (China, Russia, even the U.S.) and the rest of the UN would've had to fold. Fangz posted:Just watched it, liked it. Personally I thought Tony was right, but for the wrong reasons. I mean, he was clearly emotionally compromised, (as was Cap, admittedly) so he went about things in entirely the wrong way. If Cap was leading the Accords team things would have been very different, and in the end Tony was just a really bad leader. I don't think you'd stick Vision on the Accords team if you don't want to admit the Accords have a point, in the end. I liked the final fight, also. I like how Cap beats Tony in the end because Tony assumed Cap was trying to kill him when he wasn't. Vision was right about the need for the Avengers to be on the right side of the law, but since he's a robot he may not understand that a law may be unjust. I just love that the drop that spilled the cup was those bomb casualties in the building, but no one mentions that there would've been a lot more dead people if Crossbones had exploded in the middle of that market, or his henchmen had gotten away with the bio-weapon. In the end, I think the right answer would've been not restriction, but supervision and accountability. Like, after every big mission the Avengers have to make the case why it was neccesary for them to act, and to have closer cooperation with law enforcement agencies to minimize the damages and casualties. Oh, god, it's happening again, isn't it? The internet is breaking in half again! 
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Apr 30, 2016 21:35
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quote:It's not the barman's fault if the drunk gets in the car and causes an accident. It was all Tony who decided to create Ultron without telling the others (except Banner, who still voiced a protest). In this case, the barman intentionally got the person drunk so they'd cause the accident. She says it herself, her goal is to destroy the Avengers. Not to mention she agrees to help Ultron later on without any coercion whatsoever.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:42
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Kal-L posted:
Which is the conclusion the movie reached as well except that egos of Tony and Steve got in the way. Steve was about to sign after Bucky got captured and Tony convinced him they could work out the details and then Tony mentioned that he locked Wanda up and Steve reversed his position because he felt that was wrong. Both sides could come to a understand but the time constraints and egos involved ultimately meant that either Tony or Stark had to be the champion of the Accords and the other wasn't comfortable with that, which in a sense is their continued disagreement about who leads the team in making decisions and in this instance Tony made a bunch of unilateral moves and got behind the accords and became the face of them, so going against the Accords meant going against Tony.
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Apr 30, 2016 21:53
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LesterGroans posted:You'll have to be more specific. Heeeey, it's Lester!
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Apr 30, 2016 22:23
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Bigsteve posted:I thought it was pretty much announced that Tony Stark is in this? It likely won't be a tiny role. Downey Jr. reportedly had the Civil War script rewritten to feature Iron Man more heavily as a condition of signing his deal because he didn't just want to do some tiny cameo role. He's got Marvel Studios by the balls right now and everyone knows it.
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Apr 30, 2016 22:24
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The accords are just for the Avengers, right? Non affiliated heroes like Ant-Man, Spiderman, and Daredevil wouldn't be covered (although they would presumably still be subject to local laws).
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Apr 30, 2016 22:29
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