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lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



seems to be some combined status effect when you get an enemy with freezing (like from a water weapon) and burning status at the same time. neat

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Yodzilla
Apr 29, 2005

Now who looks even dumber?

Beef Witch


IthilionTheBrave posted:

What's everyone else's thoughts on how they think it should be handled?

I'm no weeb but yeah they should at least be consistent and I'm cool with them using the Japanese names. Yeah I had to look up what certain things are in their item descriptions but that was one time and I learned something new. Neat!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I do not mind your character being a glass cannon if the enemies are too. It feels weird that every enemy is objectively stronger than you are.

There needs to be some concept of interrupting attacks for the oni/yokai enemies. It's bad enough how the cyclops and the red dudes don't react to your hits at all, even the small dudes don't even flinch when smashed with a power attack from a giant axe. It feels lovely to constantly be attacked through your own strong attacks that are landing squarely.

This was my #1 biggest problem with Lords of the Fallen too. The Souls games have very specific rules about staggering and interrupting and while those concepts exists in Nioh and Lords they're not really consistent.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Yodzilla posted:

There needs to be some concept of interrupting attacks for the oni/yokai enemies. It's bad enough how the cyclops and the red dudes don't react to your hits at all, even the small dudes don't even flinch when smashed with a power attack from a giant axe. It feels lovely to constantly be attacked through your own strong attacks that are landing squarely.

This was my #1 biggest problem with Lords of the Fallen too. The Souls games have very specific rules about staggering and interrupting and while those concepts exists in Nioh and Lords they're not really consistent.

There is a rule for this, you can only interrupt them if you drain their ki. Same goes for the bosses. But if you do they are completely hosed.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Karma.


Hakkesshu posted:

There is a rule for this, you can only interrupt them if you drain their ki. Same goes for the bosses. But if you do they are completely hosed.

But it's not reasonable to try and drain the ki of multiple opponents because the system doesn't work like that.

The one on one combat is excellent, objectively excellent. But groups need a fix.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

The game straight up tells you that it's foolish to fight groups and gives you literally more pulling tools than you can carry.

Fighting groups is more of a challenge for when you are overlevelled for single opponents or have gotten your combo Ki pulsing stance switch chains down.

This is not like Dark Souls where you can dodge, attack, dodge attack, and expect to make good progress. You need to use combos and ki pulse stance switch to continue attacking without exhausting your ki.

Yodzilla
Apr 29, 2005

Now who looks even dumber?

Beef Witch


Hakkesshu posted:

There is a rule for this, you can only interrupt them if you drain their ki. Same goes for the bosses. But if you do they are completely hosed.

That's not entirely true though. I'm not talking about ki drains which are the equivalent to Dark Souls's poise crushes. I'm just talking about enemies reacting in any way to being hit. The human enemies do this even if their ki isn't completely drained. The demon enemies mostly do not.

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Now let me teach YOU a lesson


i was thinking the reason they named yari spears is because maybe later in the game you get european type spears too. i understand the annoyance with the inconsistency though, its always weird when certain terms are left untranslated while other are

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Now let me teach YOU a lesson


Snak posted:

Wait... There's a shrine by the boss? Is the key that item in the tree? Dueling revenants is fun. You get a cup to summon a sunmurai bro every time you win. And you can always find a super easy one to beat. I fought one that had no armor at all.

there's a key in an alley to the left of the boss, this opens a gate to the right of the boss that has a shrine plus some annoying statue enemies and a chest

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Karma.


Snak posted:

The game straight up tells you that it's foolish to fight groups and gives you literally more pulling tools than you can carry.

Obligating you pull enemies is not good game design. If they wanted to make groups entirely voluntary, sure. But there are several places where you are obligated to fight groups or pull them errors and rocks.

IthilionTheBrave
Sep 5, 2013


Davincie posted:

i was thinking the reason they named yari spears is because maybe later in the game you get european type spears too. i understand the annoyance with the inconsistency though, its always weird when certain terms are left untranslated while other are

I did consider that, as well as the possibility of using a naginata or some other type of polearm/staff as well. The spear/yari thing is just what initially lead me to think about all the other inconsistencies, really. And I imagine it's probably pretty tricky for the localizers, as you wouldn't want to make the game unapproachable to the average person by throwing out tons of Japanese words/names they have to sift through to remember what anything is.

Still, though, none of this is a dealbreaker, and I think I'll probably buy the game regardless of whether they retain these inconsistencies or not.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


Mel Mudkiper posted:

I really want to like this demo more but they need to really fix fighting multiple enemies at once and enemy health

I do not mind your character being a glass cannon if the enemies are too. It feels weird that every enemy is objectively stronger than you are.

No they don't. Its a complicated game but its really not so bad, keep trying new things.

Enemies are glass cannons too; the only ones who aren't extremely weak are the Oni and the bosses, and they should be strong. But hey guess what; the Oni don't respawn! They're minibosses Kill them one time using all your potions, then run back and level up, and then return and they're gone forever, so now all you have to do is kill glass cannon enemies. Its not that bad dude.

The camera I feel could handle multiple enemies a little better but otherwise its not bad at all. You're probably trying to force a square peg into a round hole somehow, based on what works in Dark Souls.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

If even one survives your stamina is now hosed and its an instant kill

Plus, only having one form of one weapon being effective for crowds is an issue in itself.

This is also wrong, there's multiple ways to deal with crowds. Pulling them with arrows or rocks, using katana low stance, using axe high stance, etc. Stop acting like there's only one way to do things because you haven't spent enough time trying other things yet. That's kinda silly.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

But it's not reasonable to try and drain the ki of multiple opponents because the system doesn't work like that.

The one on one combat is excellent, objectively excellent. But groups need a fix.

If you're fighting an Oni and a normal enemy at the same time, you're going to get hosed. You shouldn't be doing that. Again, Oni are minibosses that don't respawn . That's kinda a big deal? Its not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. You can also tell where an Oni is going to spawn ahead of time if you're not completely carelesss, there's a huge black field on the ground.

If you see a black oni field, you should go "oh poo poo, its an Oni, I should clear this zone of normal enemies and then kill this guy" Its not rocket science.

Typical Souls, you have to be observant. If you just run forward you're going to run into traps and die.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Obligating you pull enemies is not good game design. If they wanted to make groups entirely voluntary, sure. But there are several places where you are obligated to fight groups or pull them errors and rocks.

Please stop whining. Fighting two archers at the same time isn't bad at all, and killing one of them with an arrow feels great because archery is way better than in souls or dynasty warriors or ninja gaiden.

Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at Apr 30, 2016 around 17:13

TARDISman
Oct 28, 2011




I was in this super intense duel with some random enemy and we were both circling each other and I was thinking "gently caress yeah, this is like a Lone Wolf movie" and then the enemy walked into the fire. I loving love this game. They really timed the release of the demo perfectly, I just finished Dark Souls 3 and this got me super excited for my next fix.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


I agree with what other people were saying before that the second level feels like a huge jump in difficulty that just requires you to grind, maybe they intentionally gave us an early level and then skipped a level to give us a harder one just to be like "look how hard this can be!" or maybe they just need to re-tune it. Its not the end of the world, but it was a good thing that souls was so skill based and you could beat things at SL1, level definitely makes a bigger difference here, especially with the tooooons of loot that you get, you really have to manage your inventory and pick the best gear and sell the rest, which can be a pain. Its kinda fun in that RPG diablo way too, but I dunno if that's something I really wanted in a souls game or not.

Super excited for the full release though. And cool they gave us a little downloadable reward thingy for playing the demo, I wonder what we'll get for that.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Karma.


Zaphod42 posted:


Please stop whining. Fighting two archers at the same time isn't bad at all, and killing one of them with an arrow feels great because archery is way better than in souls or dynasty warriors or ninja gaiden.

Oh gently caress off. This an alpha, the point of a alpha is to talk about what does and doesn't work. Feeling a system needs work in an unfinished game isn't whining.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Karma.


Like you wrote this huge thing about how I am not fighting Oni correctly and I never said a word about fighting Oni. Fighting Oni makes sense and I agree. I am talking about mobs of low level melee guys, not archers.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Zaphod42 posted:

But hey guess what; the Oni don't respawn! They're minibosses

I see you didn't beat the second level

Also fighting multiple mobs suck, I agree. Every single encounter has a way around that, though.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like you wrote this huge thing about how I am not fighting Oni correctly and I never said a word about fighting Oni. Fighting Oni makes sense and I agree. I am talking about mobs of low level melee guys, not archers.

Then they're all glass cannons The guys in the second area have a bit of health at first, but the second area drops weapons with like double the attack of the first area, as soon as you grab one of those (or duel somebody to get one) they die really really fast too.

I just fought 3 spear guys and 2 ninjas together no problem.

Nobody in the first area is anything but a glass cannon, other than the Oni. That's why I figured you were talking about them.

Hakkesshu posted:

I see you didn't beat the second level

Yeah there's the wandering guys in the second level, just got to them. But its not too hard to fight that guy solo, and by that point the Oni aren't nearly as tough to you as they are in the first level.

Tactic that seems to work really well is opening a combo with mid or low stance, then doing a stance reset to regain your stamina while switching to high stance, and then comboing in high stance for tons of damage. They're still reeling from the mid-stance combo but if you do the stance reset you get back your stamina.

Practicing the timing on stance reset was the first thing that helped, but getting comfortable with actually changing stances while resetting and comboing through them feels so good.

The_White_Crane
May 10, 2008


The problem I have is that the optimal solution for fighting multiple enemies is: "Don't; just pull them one at a time", and that is a poo poo mechanic which relies on the fact that the enemies don't actively work together in any meaningful way and will happily stand around like lemons while their friends are hit in the face with shuriken and murdered one by one. I mean, I'm not asking for them to be loving genius tacticians, but it's such a flagrant display of carefully handcrafted imbecility that it does actually spoil my immersion.
I know, I know, talking about immersion in a game about fantasy magic samurai and demons...

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Karma.


Like, people do not seem to get that you can understand the mechanics of a game perfectly and still feel they need to be improved.

I get how the system works and how it's meant to be used, I just think it needs some tweaks and some de-emphasis on drawing out people in crowds to fight 1 on 1

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Now let me teach YOU a lesson


hmm i don't remember any real group fights except those assholes just in front of the beach. there were a few 2 man patrols but thats mostly just a guy that dies in 1 hit and another one

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



yeah i don't recall ever *needing* to pull anyone on the critical path, only to go back around and destroy ambushes.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

Could people please stop fighting the avatar war over my avatar. I really appreciate people being nice about it but I'm feeling crappier that people are wasting money because someone is an asshole than I am about the avatar in the first place.


The_White_Crane posted:

The problem I have is that the optimal solution for fighting multiple enemies is: "Don't; just pull them one at a time", and that is a poo poo mechanic which relies on the fact that the enemies don't actively work together in any meaningful way and will happily stand around like lemons while their friends are hit in the face with shuriken and murdered one by one. I mean, I'm not asking for them to be loving genius tacticians, but it's such a flagrant display of carefully handcrafted imbecility that it does actually spoil my immersion.

The same is often the case in Dark Souls too though. Its just that most people don't bother. Dark Souls is almost always made easier by shooting people with bows or magic from afar to pull them one by one, but unless you're up against a group of like 5 dudes and you're scared, most people don't bother. Some people do play through dark souls by shooting everybody with arrows though, its do-able and trivializes the game.

I'm fine with using arrows to kill a few guys being a smart strategy, that's part of planning ahead. And you can't carry many arrows in Nioh overall, so you can't do that always. Gotta use it when it matters.

The_White_Crane posted:

I know, I know, talking about immersion in a game about fantasy magic samurai and demons...

Nah, that's fine. Somebody always argues "lol but its magic" when you talk about that kinda immersion or consistency, but the thing is fantasy is allowed a suspension of disbelief, but contradicting yourself breaks that suspension of disbelief. Its a totally legit complaint.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like, people do not seem to get that you can understand the mechanics of a game perfectly and still feel they need to be improved.

I get how the system works and how it's meant to be used, I just think it needs some tweaks and some de-emphasis on drawing out people in crowds to fight 1 on 1

Its not so much I'm assuming you don't know how the system works as you're assuming the system is broken and needs to change. The more time I spend with it the more time I get used to its particular qualities and how to deal with them.

We've all been playing souls for years and years and have had time to adapt. Many of us ended up putting down DeS or DS1 after putting several hours in it, only to return weeks or months later to complete the entire game. You opinion is valid, but some of what I saw you saying, like enemies being way tougher than you are, just doesn't seem to be accurate to what I'm experiencing, at least once you get used to it and get a proper weapon equipped for the area you're in, etc.

Also fire talismans and fire tokens or whatever let you beat up on Oni real bad.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



i don't think you really need to gear up for stage 2, i made a second character and went through all of it with equipment from stage 1 except swapping out for better swords as i found them, but it was like one trip so it's not like i was grinding. mostly because all of the ronin stuff i was finding in stage 2 seemed to be worse than what i got from developer ghosts in stage 1, like the defense modifier (???) went up but the actual defense numbers vs. break and vs. lightning were lower so i just didn't use any of it.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

I honestly think a chunk of the replayability comes from the fact that when you are under levelled or under geared, you can clear levels with tools and tricks, but later you can jumo in and take on 2-3 guys at once and heads are just popping off and you finish fights with full health and full ki and you feel loving awesome.

Also, I went from ragequitting after trying to fight revenants, to having to go pray at the shrine to loat more revenant, since I killed all the ones in the area. It's fun to have extra optional enemies. Revenants are way more varied than regular enemies, so you aren't just fighting the same guys over and over.

Snak fucked around with this message at Apr 30, 2016 around 22:34

Brumaldo
Jun 29, 2013



You can switch to low stance at the end of a combo and THEN ki pulse with a dodge. God drat, this game.

Belzac
Mar 19, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E


I've taken it upon myself to get everyone through Nue. If you see a guy solo your Nue in like 30 seconds and then go ring the bell that's me.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Don't talk to me or my cat ever again.


I really like the depth you can get out of this game's stance-chaning, ki pulse thing. I'm only barely scratching the surface but I can see how it would be really fun and cool. Also I really love spears, holy poo poo.

I'm also terrible at it. I've kind of just thrown my skill points every which way--I'm a fan of the skill tree and getting to preview skills and such, though I think it's kind of duplicative with the Souls-style stat system--but I'm having a blast. I did a Living Weapon by accident the first time and it was so drat cool and unexpected. I haven't even gotten to the first boss of the demo yet--there are two, right?--but I'm determined to do so before the demo closes.

I'm pretty sold on this. I do feel more fragile than I'd like though. But it's a really cool game and I'm excited to see the full version.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

I like this game a lot and I'm gonna buy it. That said, I don't understand how to fight the second boss at all and its not really any fun. The fact that you can be running or rolling as fast as you can and still get one-shotted anywhere in the arena is really lame and doesn't give you a chance to observe his tells. I tried summoning help once, but it felt stupid since I got one-shotted literally as soon as the boss spawned. I moved forward enough for the boss to spawn, then I evaded left and died. That was the whole fight.

The first attempt I got him down to a quarter health with my living weapon, but I don't actually understand what charges the spirit gauge. Hitting stuff, I think? It's not explained anywhere in the game as far as I know...

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Don't talk to me or my cat ever again.


What's everyone's favorite guardian spirit? Do they have different Living Weapon effects?

I've been rolling with the cool bird dude who makes your evasion take less ki mostly because of its magnificent plumage.

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

No for real, what's the deal with "all of my attacks oneshot you" the boss? I figured there would be some kind of trick or weak point to him, but I haven't been able to do much of anything because I die before I can understand what he's doing.

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001





Snak posted:

No for real, what's the deal with "all of my attacks oneshot you" the boss? I figured there would be some kind of trick or weak point to him, but I haven't been able to do much of anything because I die before I can understand what he's doing.

I heard if you shoot the face during the beam its mega damage

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

It turns out that what I thought was a really small amount of lightning resist also helps a lot. Basically halved his damage and now I don't get one-shotted any more.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



when nue hunkers down and shakes himself like a wet dog you're about to get hit by lightning from the sky. 4 bolts, you can dodge them by just running around or hiding under the awnings at the front and back of the arena. when he starts charging his mouth laser run to his right side and hit him to KO him for tons of free damage, also a good time to use your living weapon. if you have 3 or so flame shuriken throw them all of them at his face at the very start and you'll probably set him on fire, which is pretty tough to do otherwise.

Harrow posted:

What's everyone's favorite guardian spirit? Do they have different Living Weapon effects?

I've been rolling with the cool bird dude who makes your evasion take less ki mostly because of its magnificent plumage.

lightning pup is my fav but he's bad for stage 2 so i use hot fox instead

lets hang out fucked around with this message at May 1, 2016 around 03:24

VocalizePlayerDeath
Jan 29, 2009


Harrow posted:

What's everyone's favorite guardian spirit? Do they have different Living Weapon effects?

I've been rolling with the cool bird dude who makes your evasion take less ki mostly because of its magnificent plumage.

I went Hawk because of bonus loot. Its also one of the faster charging spirits but it has a shorter duration.
Spirits get charged as you receive amrita. If you can kill fast enough you can prolong your living weapon. They also proc their elemental effect which fire is the most obvious as a dot. I don't know what the others do.

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



lightning slows down enemies movements by a lot, i'm not really sure what ice does even though I've seen it go off a bunch of times. combining any two gets you a third status effect that's just like long duration guard break, it's really good

also status effects just get applied per hit, so low stance is the best way to set someone on fire or w/e real quick

lets hang out fucked around with this message at May 1, 2016 around 03:29

Snak
Oct 10, 2005

I myself will carry you to the Gates of Valhalla...
You will ride eternal,
shiny and chrome.


Grimey Drawer

This game is so cool.

Also I just realize that my spirit guardian has basically not been equipped because I don't have enough spirit. I'm about to start a second playthrough though, so I'll make sure to level spirit. I'm also going to try the ninjutsu stuff this time.

Edit: holy poo poo low stance is easy mode. Also ninjutsu bombs are pretty good. This is definitely not too hard. It's very much a case of mechanics not being clear.

Snak fucked around with this message at May 1, 2016 around 05:23

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001





i'm confused about level 2's second shrine. do i have to kill everything in that room to use it? i got there and there were a ton of huge dudes in there and the shrine was not interactive i guess because of their proximity?

lets hang out
Jan 10, 2015



Real hurthling! posted:

i'm confused about level 2's second shrine. do i have to kill everything in that room to use it? i got there and there were a ton of huge dudes in there and the shrine was not interactive i guess because of their proximity?

you just need to kill the statue guys right next to it

Belzac
Mar 19, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E


Sick tips:

Shark is objectively the best living weapon because it's the only one that recharges from doing damage. This allows you to combo bosses to death without them attacking back. As soon as you break there Ki, pop your weapon and it's a kill.

Attacking the dog right before any of his lighting attacks breaks his ki, see above for easy kill.

Breaking a bosses ki and then hitting them while they're broken gives you a full living weapon in just a few hits. See above for even easier kill.

Stay below 70% equip load for farther dodges while still being pretty tanky.

Afflicting any oni with two different elemental debuffs afflicts them with a debuff I call Yin Yang that prevents them from regaining their ki till the buffs wear off. It also instanly breaks their ki and probably increases damage on them. You can break bosses easy with flaming shurikens/bombs in combination with your living weapon. Other oni are easily broken if your weapon has any elemental type besides fire and low stance spamming to inflict it and then tossing a fire bomb. Every fog oni can be killed in just a few seconds with this.

If your living weapon is about to run out put it away (R1 + O or left d-pad) when it runs out naturally it tends to leave you winded but if you initiate the cancel it doesn't.

Get good at low stance dodge ki pulses and nothing in the game can touch you or stop you from murdering it in seconds.

How most of my Nue fights go while I'm spamming helping people: https://www.twitch.tv/belzaca/v/63657165

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Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001





In reflection on the demo lvl2 felt really weak and i hope it doesn't make it into the game unchanged.

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