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Chad Sexington
May 26, 2005

You say 'in bed with the Russians' like it's a bad thing...

Any guesses what I might spend having a plumber install my Bosch dishwasher in a major metro?

The dopes from Home Depot have come out twice and both times found reasons not to do it. Just going to cancel the install and have them back to do haulaway.

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Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Chad Sexington posted:

Any guesses what I might spend having a plumber install my Bosch dishwasher in a major metro?

The dopes from Home Depot have come out twice and both times found reasons not to do it. Just going to cancel the install and have them back to do haulaway.

Short of connecting a drain hose, water line, plugging it in and turning the water shutoff on what needs to be done?

Because anyone should be able to to the above, but if you don't have something you need (like the old dishwasher was hardwired and an outlet needs to be installed) the cost is entirely in the details of what needs to be done.

Chad Sexington
May 26, 2005

You say 'in bed with the Russians' like it's a bad thing...

Motronic posted:

Short of connecting a drain hose, water line, plugging it in and turning the water shutoff on what needs to be done?

Because anyone should be able to to the above, but if you don't have something you need (like the old dishwasher was hardwired and an outlet needs to be installed) the cost is entirely in the details of what needs to be done.

Shutoff valve is corroded (says the guy today) and we need a granite mounting bracket, so nothing very complicated. We had an unmounted outlet down there too that we fixed already.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Chad Sexington posted:

Shutoff valve is corroded (says the guy today) and we need a granite mounting bracket, so nothing very complicated. We had an unmounted outlet down there too that we fixed already.

So you need a plumber who's gonna have to shut off the water to the house, install a new valve (solder) and track down whatever bracket it is that you need. It's gonna be a few hundred bucks.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Chad Sexington posted:

Any guesses what I might spend having a plumber install my Bosch dishwasher in a major metro?

The dopes from Home Depot have come out twice and both times found reasons not to do it. Just going to cancel the install and have them back to do haulaway.

If you need new power from the panel? Anyone's guess. If this is literally r&r and your old one is very close to modern code? It's 1hr labor. Otherwise it's going to be somewhere in the middle. Just call a real plumber and have them out to bid it. If you like the price, have them do it right then and there. Probably $350 if some amount of work needs doing.

The dopes from Home Depot are paid to reconnect existing setups and that's it. Anything beyond that and they aren't getting paid enough and are cutting their losses on the trip. They also don't have a book of business large enough to turn down $45 or whatever dishwasher hookups.

Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



eig posted:

Does anyone have recommendations for under cabinet lighting?

I like GMLighting's catalog, but I don't know about buying it outside of a commercial context. they have connectors that fit inside their extrusions which is nice
https://www.gmlighting.net/

I've ordered from Waveform before, they are the only place that seemed reasonably reputable that could sell me UV strip lights (client had a mineral collection with efflorescent properties). Their fufillment went a bit sideways though, the extrusions just never shipped despite a couple of 'attempts.'
https://www.waveformlighting.com/

Keep in mind that hiding the transformer while keeping it accessible as required by code is tricky and should be planned in advance.

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.



ScooterMcTiny posted:

I have an idea, letís put a gas line into our kitchen so we can replace the 40 year old electric cooktop. Oh whatís that thereís multiple gas leaks in the existing piping? Ah yes letís just replace it all.

Do. Never. Buy.

Should have gone with induction. Still electric, and more energy efficient.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


H110Hawk posted:


The dopes from Home Depot are paid to reconnect existing setups and that's it. Anything beyond that and they aren't getting paid enough and are cutting their losses on the trip. T

Even then don't count on it.

In our current place we noticed that the washer was filing everything with scalding hot water. Brand new washer too, put in right before we moved in. Rental grade but decent. Don't know where it came from but I'm willing to bet the Home Depot a half mile away.

The problem was easy enough to find and fix once we got it away from the wall. The water hookups were reversed, despite the fact that they were clearly labeled on the machine side and color coded on the wall side.

Chad Sexington
May 26, 2005

You say 'in bed with the Russians' like it's a bad thing...

Bird in a Blender posted:

Should have gone with induction. Still electric, and more energy efficient.

How do these feel to actually cook with? I had an electric stovetop at my last place and hated it. It's taken some time to get back into good cooking habits now that we have gas, because I was so used to turning on the stove and leaving for 10 minutes before the pan was hot enough to use. Didn't realize there was another option. (I also think my county is going to come for our gas HVAC, water heater, stove eventually.)

Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



Chad Sexington posted:

(I also think my county is going to come for our gas HVAC, water heater, stove eventually.)

Thereís always propane, I suppose. Iíd probably do this for my cooktop if natural gas hookup wasnít/ceased being an option (but go electric for the oven and everything else). My dad has done the same with my parentsí weekend house in the middle of nowhere. All electric except for the stove, which has a dedicated propane tank that the guy surely charges extra to refill due to its remoteness. Then again, my parentsí experience with electric is only with the godawful coils, so it makes sense theyíd go to a lot of extra trouble to install a propane tank.

Still, induction seems pretty dang cool, but I tend to be really rough with my stovetop and also own a crapton of cast iron so I donít know how well Iíd get along with it, personally. Also not sure how my round bottom wok would work on an induction surface.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Chad Sexington posted:

How do these feel to actually cook with? I had an electric stovetop at my last place and hated it. It's taken some time to get back into good cooking habits now that we have gas, because I was so used to turning on the stove and leaving for 10 minutes before the pan was hot enough to use. Didn't realize there was another option. (I also think my county is going to come for our gas HVAC, water heater, stove eventually.)

Gets hot faster than anything else. Like, be careful, we cracked grandma's cast iron from too hot too fast It's different in other ways, like maybe doesn't spread the heat out as evenly? Hard to say what is "better" but at least it doesn't have the too slow issue.

StormDrain
May 22, 2003

Thirteen Letter


I'm all but convinced my next stove will be induction. It's electric currently, so my first thought was dual fuel so I can have an electric oven, and pay to have the gas run up there (it's close). But everything I see and hear on induction is good.

My only lingering question is how dirty will the top get? I have a smooth top now that is always filthy because any splatter or spill cooks on it immediately. I know induction is cooler but still gets warm.

NomNomNom
Jul 20, 2008
Please Work Out

How easy to clean is a gas range really? Gas cook tops gets disgusting quickly. I almost went induction instead of gas just for the ease of cleanup.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

I mean, it obviously depends on the cook top but I have to say Wolf comes apart nice and easy and the under-burner trays are so durable you can just ravage them with commercial kitchen stainless steel scrubbies. Most of the more reasonably priced gas cooktops also come apart easy, but are brushed stainless or similar and you have to be more careful when going after them (bar keepers friend and a sponge is great for this). But cheap stoves.....yeah....they're cheap stoves. They suck in a ton of ways, and keeping them clean is usually pretty close to the top of the suck list.

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me


Yeah, my Thermador is also easy to clean, but it costs a lot.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





I just cleaned my Frigidaire yesterday and it wasn't bad

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

Windows & patio door are done and life is GOOD

They redid so much woodwork that I can't believe they didn't charge me extra. The miter saw was going all day every day, and pretty much any wood/trim that came within a foot of the windows got redone.

It's quite nice having windows that open, can't feel the breeze through them, and the patio door isn't 147 decibels

Tricky Ed
Aug 18, 2010

It is important to avoid confusion. This is the one that's okay to lick.




In my experience induction is better than gas at producing instant heat, and holds its temperature more reliably. A ceiling fan or vent hood isn't going to change how hot it gets, and it can hold a low simmer much more easily than most gas burners. I have an easier time making rapid changes with gas, and my monkey brain understands "that's not as much fire" better than "I changed it from 8.5 to 3." It's also lots quicker to turn a knob and see a result vs. hitting the up or down button a bunch of times on the cooktop. Induction heat is also much more even. The only hotspots will come from your cookware -- you can get varying levels of heat if your pans are warped or have inconsistent thickness in the base. Obviously woks are their own special category and you can't use a traditional wok shape on an induction cooktop.

Induction ranges don't burn on stuff in the same way that resistance glass-top ranges do, but it does still happen. While the induction element itself doesn't generate heat, after prolonged cooking there will be residual heat and, again, my monkey brain understands fire better than a red warning light. I don't know how efficient they are at converting power into cooking heat. I suspect gas is cheaper right now but electric is going to have a lesser environmental impact depending on the source of that electricity. There's no way for a gas appliance to use renewable/low-emission sources of power.

All told I still prefer gas, but if I had to go electric I would be happier with induction than I ever was with resistance ranges.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



StormDrain posted:

My only lingering question is how dirty will the top get? I have a smooth top now that is always filthy because any splatter or spill cooks on it immediately. I know induction is cooler but still gets warm.

Not that warm. You can actually put a paper towel between the pan/pot and the surface, which blows peoples' minds. Obviously, you can't do this if you're getting your pan super hot (like to the point where most oils start smoking.)

All glass tops are easy to clean, though. Just use a window scraper (razor blade holder) and they clean right up. Cleaning gas burners is a huge pain in comparison, which is obvious when I look at how nasty most people's gas ranges are.

StormDrain
May 22, 2003

Thirteen Letter


B-Nasty posted:

Not that warm. You can actually put a paper towel between the pan/pot and the surface, which blows peoples' minds. Obviously, you can't do this if you're getting your pan super hot (like to the point where most oils start smoking.)

All glass tops are easy to clean, though. Just use a window scraper (razor blade holder) and they clean right up. Cleaning gas burners is a huge pain in comparison, which is obvious when I look at how nasty most people's gas ranges are.

Bullshit on the razor blade thing. If you don't get to it on the first heating cycle that poo poo is a pain in the rear end. Fresh blades and ceramic top cleaner, still sucks. Ours now gets wiped down regularly and deep scraped once in a blue moon. It looks better than any coil top I've ever had but not perfect.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.


StormDrain posted:

Bullshit on the razor blade thing. If you don't get to it on the first heating cycle that poo poo is a pain in the rear end. Fresh blades and ceramic top cleaner, still sucks. Ours now gets wiped down regularly and deep scraped once in a blue moon. It looks better than any coil top I've ever had but not perfect.

I find that this is only true for marks caused by pans (the big metal streaks). I've had plenty of things boil over or spatter or drip on to a rocket-hot burner (I'm a messy rear end cook) and they always clean up with a razor scraper and some patience/elbow grease. Even if I don't get to it immediately and cook a few more times on it, it'll still come out.

But those goddamn metal stains.

I know I'll miss how easy this cooktop is to clean, but I really can't wait until I get gas. Some of our cookware has warped ever so slightly, which really makes it annoying to cook on.

Cormack
Apr 29, 2009


I saw an article recently about the indoor pollution problems with gas stoves. We've got an old place that makes a vent impractical in the near term, so swapping to induction is on my medium term project list.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Cormack posted:

I saw an article recently about the indoor pollution problems with gas stoves. We've got an old place that makes a vent impractical in the near term, so swapping to induction is on my medium term project list.

Those pollution problems are almost nonexistent when people have and use a proper hood. But yeah, most places seems to be some cheap rear end microwave 1/2 to 3/4 coverage vent recirculating everything back into the cook's face.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.


One of the first things we tried to do when we bought our house was to install an exterior vent line, because we cook a decent amount and would love to have smoke go somewhere else. Had a handyman come by and everything.

Turns out all the upstairs zone HVAC utilities run through that stud bay... NG supply, refrigerant line, condensate drain...

Still annoyed at that. Feel like I should do something about it, but I suspect it'll be horribly expensive to re-route everything.

Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



Cormack posted:

I saw an article recently about the indoor pollution problems with gas stoves. We've got an old place that makes a vent impractical in the near term, so swapping to induction is on my medium term project list.

Iíve read about this and am aware of it when cooking in our ventless kitchen on a lovely old stove with pilot lights. A major goal for our kitchen remodel is a proper extractor fan and ventilation. We have an old place as well, but itís old enough to have a giant stove chimney that we could hook into.

Iíd hate to think what indoor pollution was like in our house before natural gas - it was all coal before. The coal-fired boiler, four coal-burning fireplaces, and the wood stove would have been awful for air quality. But the outside air was probably still worse because of the steel mills.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Queen Victorian posted:

Iíd hate to think what indoor pollution was like in our house before natural gas - it was all coal before. The coal-fired boiler, four coal-burning fireplaces, and the wood stove would have been awful for air quality. But the outside air was probably still worse because of the steel mills.

I did some work in an older place that had just been converted over from coal everything. Paint would basically just slide off the walls unless you steam cleaned them and used half a box of TSP first. I can only imagine what living in a place like that must have been like. I'm sure you go nose blind pretty quickly, but yikes....so much cancer...so many respiratory diseases.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



The problem with lager range hoods is that you need an actual plan for makeup air. With even a relatively tight house, there's no way a hood is able to exhaust 400+ CFM without some dedicated air intake. The difference is amazing, even with my crappy exhaust fan, when I crack a window near the stove and get a nice draft in and up.

Higher end models now have ports for makeup air that dump it down at the front of the hood and then exhaust it from the back. It creates an air curtain around your range.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

B-Nasty posted:

Higher end models now have ports for makeup air that dump it down at the front of the hood and then exhaust it from the back. It creates an air curtain around your range.

Yeah, this. Good full depth hoods accommodate this already. REALLY good ones have heated makeup air (I've only seen that on commercial hoods to be fair).

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me


The main elements for a decent vent hood are:

(1) a 8" pipe through your exhaust space with minimal bends in the pipe. Even 1 can sometimes strongly restrict the flow
(2) a minimum potentially 600 CFM hood, but more if you like to stir fry or splatter oil a lot.

Makeup air isn't (but sometimes, check your jurisdiction) required for residential, assuming you are ok with opening a window in the worst case.

As for hoods, I recommend https://elica.com/US-en/range-hoods. They are not insanely expensive but quite practical, although there are a bunch of other companies that will work too.

ntan1 fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 23, 2021

Lawnie
Sep 5, 2006

That is my helmet
Give it back
you are a lion
It doesn't even fit


Grimey Drawer

Speaking of kitchen exhaust, I currently have a very crappy, unvented microwave. I canít realistically put a microwave anywhere else, but it does need replacing and Iím probably going to have someone out to run an external duct. Any recommendations for over-the-range microwaves with the best exhaust performance?

Quaint Quail Quilt
Jun 19, 2006



StormDrain posted:

My only lingering question is how dirty will the top get? I have a smooth top now that is always filthy because any splatter or spill cooks on it immediately. I know induction is cooler but still gets warm.
If you clean immediately every time it stays pretty clean, if a mess stays on for 20+ cooks it's like permanent, I tried induction cleaner and scrub pads, magic eraser, orange clean, even razor blade.

What finally cleaned a stubborn eye was a "pumice scrubbing stick" from like grocery or dollar store, it's only like $2 ceramic safe.

Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



ntan1 posted:

The main elements for a decent vent hood are:

(1) a 8" pipe through your exhaust space with minimal bends in the pipe. Even 1 can sometimes strongly restrict the flow
(2) a minimum potentially 600 CFM hood, but more if you like to stir fry or splatter oil a lot.

Makeup air isn't required for residential, assuming you are ok with opening a window in the worst case.

As for hoods, I recommend https://elica.com/US-en/range-hoods. They are not insanely expensive but quite practical, although there are a bunch of other companies that will work too.

IRC 2015 requires makeup air for all "Exhaust hood systems capable of exhausting in excess of 400 cubic feet per minute" (M1503.4). The makeup air cannot be a window, because the makeup air supply requires one gravity or electrically operated damper (ie - not a window) to ensure automatic operation. I quote 2015 because I think that's where most USA states are. In the 2018 IRC that requirement is dropped if everything in the house is sealed combustion - but as I'm writing that I'm kind of curious how a fireplace is categorized under the 2018 code, so that's something to keep in mind.

We specify makeup air for everything over 400 CFM. I work in a modified 2015 IRC jurisdiction.

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



ntan1 posted:

Makeup air isn't required for residential, assuming you are ok with opening a window in the worst case.

Just like how bathrooms aren't required to have exhaust fans so long as there's an operable window. Then people wonder why their paint is peeling, corner beads are rusting through the paint, and they have mold spots.

I live where it gets cold enough that the last thing anyone is going to do voluntarily is open a window to ensure proper drafting or ventilation.

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me


B-Nasty posted:

Just like how bathrooms aren't required to have exhaust fans so long as there's an operable window. Then people wonder why their paint is peeling, corner beads are rusting through the paint, and they have mold spots.

I live where it gets cold enough that the last thing anyone is going to do voluntarily is open a window to ensure proper drafting or ventilation.

Not exactly the same analogy.

Tezer posted:

IRC 2015 requires makeup air for all "Exhaust hood systems capable of exhausting in excess of 400 cubic feet per minute" (M1503.4). The makeup air cannot be a window, because the makeup air supply requires one gravity or electrically operated damper (ie - not a window) to ensure automatic operation. I quote 2015 because I think that's where most USA states are.

Huh, CA building code doesn't follow IRC at all but does have a makeup provision that is pretty vague which technically requires it for small kitchens that is based on a specific pressure calculation. As a result, given my kitchen size makeup air is not necessary. Good news! None of the building inspectors in my region care anyway!

Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



ntan1 posted:

Huh, CA building code doesn't follow IRC at all but does have a makeup provision that is pretty vague which technically requires it for small kitchens that is based on a specific pressure calculation.

Lame. The only reason to have a make-up air requirement in my opinion is to prevent people from back drafting their lovely appliances. I'm not familiar with CA code, if they require makeup air in houses without drafting appliances I'm not sure I understand the point. If you want to depressurize your house for fun and it won't back draft anything, go for it, this is the land of the free.

ntan1 posted:

Good news! None of the building inspectors in my region care anyway!

"regulatory realism"

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Tezer posted:

Lame. The only reason to have a make-up air requirement in my opinion is to prevent people from back drafting their lovely appliances.

Your required CO detectors that will be builder grade poo poo will go off when you do this. At least the ones in the early 2000s.

So. many. fire. calls. All with a complaint of a CO issue, only to see that it's a depressed O2 issue because it's cold out, the whole house has been shut up for literally a few days during a snow storm, gas stove/fire place whatever and now we're getting called out. Every snowstorm. Always in a new housing development.

Lawnie
Sep 5, 2006

That is my helmet
Give it back
you are a lion
It doesn't even fit


Grimey Drawer

Tezer posted:

IRC 2015 requires makeup air for all "Exhaust hood systems capable of exhausting in excess of 400 cubic feet per minute" (M1503.4). The makeup air cannot be a window, because the makeup air supply requires one gravity or electrically operated damper (ie - not a window) to ensure automatic operation. I quote 2015 because I think that's where most USA states are. In the 2018 IRC that requirement is dropped if everything in the house is sealed combustion - but as I'm writing that I'm kind of curious how a fireplace is categorized under the 2018 code, so that's something to keep in mind.

We specify makeup air for everything over 400 CFM. I work in a modified 2015 IRC jurisdiction.

I'm assuming natural gas stoves aren't considered "sealed combustion," or does that term only apply to HVAC-type air handling systems?

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



ntan1 posted:

Not exactly the same analogy.

Nobody is going to open their window in Winter to ensure their 700CFM hood is actually pulling 700CFM.

The whole point is that gas cooktops have been linked to indoor air quality issues and asthma in children. This could be mitigated with sufficient exhaust, but sufficient exhaust requires sufficient makeup air. Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I don't see how the suggestion to 'open a window' solves the problem.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

B-Nasty posted:

Nobody is going to open their window in Winter to ensure their 700CFM hood is actually pulling 700CFM.

The whole point is that gas cooktops have been linked to indoor air quality issues and asthma in children. This could be mitigated with sufficient exhaust, but sufficient exhaust requires sufficient makeup air. Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I don't see how the suggestion to 'open a window' solves the problem.

My history of understanding and enforcing what counts at "minimum code" support these statements but maybe needs some expletives inserted.

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Queen Victorian
Feb 21, 2018



Now Iím wondering about the effect of layout on indoor air quality. If you have a traditional closed kitchen with doors that can be shut, would that sufficiently mitigate air quality decline elsewhere in the house? As opposed to an open concept, where the kitchen is completely uncontained.

When I was going over kitchen plans with my dad, he remarked on the door Iíd drawn in for the butler stairs (right now the doorís missing). He suggested tearing out the old doorframe and having it as an open stairwell. I shut that idea down fast because I donít want all the heat and smells and general cooking fumes finding their way upstairs. Also I want to be able to close everyone out of the kitchen because I hate people getting in the way.

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