Would Western Fantasy Canon have been better off without LOTR?

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Helical Nightmares: Apr 30, 2009

Windows 98 posted:

You know when I first read that GRRM letter I just assumed it was a fan-boy letter by a 14 year old. Now I am clearly seeing that he was trolling the gently caress out of Marvel. He was poo poo posting at them via snail mail. Glorious.

One of us! One of us!

A consummate rear end in a top hat's training starts early :allears:

Applewhite, you have my full permission to use the new IP do not steal character Dongdor the Barbarian, wielder of the vein-sword Priapus. Please regale us with tales of his sinewy penis.*

*in book 5 Dongdor takes to the High Seas as Dongdor the Pirate all up in that booty

# ? May 8, 2016 00:47

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:40

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

It was all downhill from Grettir's saga anyway.

quote:

As they were speaking Thorbjorn struck a violent blow on the door. Atli said:

"He wants to see me; perhaps he has some business with me, for he seems very pressing."

Then he went to the outer door and saw nobody there. It was raining hard, so he did not go outside, but stood holding both the door-posts with his hands and peering round. At that moment Thorbjorn sidled round to the front of the door and thrust his spear with both hands into Atli's middle, so that it pierced him through. Atli said when he received the thrust: "They use broad spear-blades nowadays."

Then he fell forward on the threshold.

# ? May 8, 2016 00:51

The_Angry_Turtle: Aug 2, 2007; BLARGH

Now that I'm thinking about it I've decided that LOTR actually didn't have a huge direct impact on fantasy. Instead, it set the foundation for Dungeons and Dragons which in turn influenced generations of fantasy writers who grew up with table top gaming. Authors who didn't have much to to do with D&D or Games Workshop continued innovating but got pushed back behind the gaming influenced fantasy because their stuff was harder to market and monetize.

# ? May 8, 2016 00:55

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

grrm is dead serious in that letter.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:04

MiracleWhale: Jun 30, 2015

Groovelord Neato posted:

grrm is dead serious in that letter.

can't be

# ? May 8, 2016 01:05

naem: May 29, 2011

The_Angry_Turtle posted:

Now that I'm thinking about it I've decided that LOTR actually didn't have a huge direct impact on fantasy. Instead, it set the foundation for Dungeons and Dragons which in turn influenced generations of fantasy writers who grew up with table top gaming. Authors who didn't have much to to do with D&D or Games Workshop continued innovating but got pushed back behind the gaming influenced fantasy because their stuff was harder to market and monetize.

Dollar dollar bill yall

# ? May 8, 2016 01:10

flick my Mr. Bean: Nov 18, 2014

Nooner posted:

the only fantasy I have .... is your mom

can't be a fantasy if it's something you can easily experience, nooner. That's like fantasizing about going grocery shopping.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:16

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

MiracleWhale posted:

can't be

this is a guy who can't finish his fantasy series cuz he's too busy editing his superhero story anthologies.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:16

Windows 98: Nov 13, 2005; HTTP 400: Bad post

Groovelord Neato posted:

this is a guy who can't finish his fantasy series cuz he's too busy editing his superhero story anthologies.

I hear what you're saying. But if read in the tone of a cynical GBS post that letter screams of being facetious and condescending.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:24

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

Glaucus atlanticus posted:

I think people would like GRRM more if they just read his autobiography.

What the gently caress did I just read.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:27

Wizchine: Sep 17, 2007; Television is the retina
of the mind's eye.

Windows 98 posted:

I hear what you're saying. But if read in the tone of a cynical GBS post that letter screams of being facetious and condescending.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:37

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

he's being serious. he isn't that clever now and definitely wasn't as a comic obsessed high schooler.

# ? May 8, 2016 01:46

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

Yeah he's humourless and can't do subtlety. It's serious

# ? May 8, 2016 02:32

Wizchine: Sep 17, 2007; Television is the retina
of the mind's eye.

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

Yeah he's humourless and can't do subtlety. It's serious

Well it's not really subtle.

# ? May 8, 2016 02:43

Blue Star: Feb 18, 2013; by FactsAreUseless

Y'all need to check out Clark Ashton Smith. He was a friend of both H.P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard, and he wrote the same kind of stuff, but his was way better, imo. For one thing, he actually had a sense of humor and often included some levity in his stories. He also was probably the least manchild-y of the three. He actually had a wife and lived in his own place.

I like his Hyperborea stories the best, followed by his Zothique stories. His Averoigne ones ain't bad, either.

# ? May 8, 2016 02:48

Facebook Aunt: Oct 4, 2008; wiggle wiggle

Nooner posted:

if I was dr frankkenstien I'd probably have given the monster a huge cool dick, but then again it might make you feel inadequate so maybe he gave the monster a tiny little micropeen so he could be like "oh yeah, you may be super strong but look at my big cool weener its way bigger than yours lol"

Nah, it was the Bride of Frankenstein that got the tiny penis. True story. Her cooter was just for sexin', she had a tiny penis on her thigh to pee through.

# ? May 8, 2016 03:19

The_Angry_Turtle: Aug 2, 2007; BLARGH

Guy Gavriel Kay writes good semi-historical fantasy books that have nothing to do with Tolkien tropes. Brandon Sanderson is kinda Tolkien-lite but some of his books are redeemed by interesting worlds.

Some of the big series like Wheel of Time owes a debt to Tolkien but the good ones took the themes way further and with gave them more more interesting trappings. Though its giving Tolkien a bit too much credit to say he invented this stuff. All his world building was ripped right out of ye olde Celtic mythology. He just repackaged it.

# ? May 8, 2016 03:48

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

It was all downhill from Grettir's saga anyway.

I prefer the translation "i see broad spear blades are the fashion these days"

# ? May 8, 2016 06:40

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Mange Mite posted:

That's pretty clever

i'm going to use it next time

# ? May 8, 2016 07:08

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Blurry Gray Thing posted:

I think GRRM hates his fans. Most of his work isn't even fantasy. He wrote a whole lot of nonsense about superheroes and a series about a giant nerd who flies through space with his talking cat. None of it made it big. Then he wrote some fantasy stuff and now people demand more and more.

his superhero stories were originally just his rpg group's adventures written down

# ? May 8, 2016 07:13

Neurosis: Jun 10, 2003; Fallen Rib

Blue Star posted:

Y'all need to check out Clark Ashton Smith. He was a friend of both H.P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard, and he wrote the same kind of stuff, but his was way better, imo. For one thing, he actually had a sense of humor and often included some levity in his stories. He also was probably the least manchild-y of the three. He actually had a wife and lived in his own place.

I like his Hyperborea stories the best, followed by his Zothique stories. His Averoigne ones ain't bad, either.

clark ashton smith is loving boss. more than having a sense of humour i think his technical writing chops were way better than his contemporaries.

if you like that kind of thing you can then go on to read jack vance's dying earth stories and novels, which are also crazy imaginative and cool. from there if you want to get literary you can check out m john harrison's viriconium or gene wolfe's book of the new sun.

oh, william hope hodgson's night land (the rewrite by james stoddard is maybe the better place to start, it reads better for modern sensibilities) is really good too.

Neurosis fucked around with this message at 07:26 on May 8, 2016

# ? May 8, 2016 07:18

H.H: Oct 24, 2006; August is the Cruelest Month

the fantasy "genre" is garbage and makes pulp crime novels look sophisticated and deep in meaning

# ? May 8, 2016 08:18

Ex-Priest Tobin: May 25, 2014; by Reene

It's too bad more Western fantasy authors didn't pull more influence from Eastern religions and folklore. Zelazny's Lord of Light is a better novel than anything Tolkien wrote.

# ? May 8, 2016 09:02

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

The_Angry_Turtle posted:

Though its giving Tolkien a bit too much credit to say he invented this stuff. All his world building was ripped right out of ye olde Celtic mythology. He just repackaged it.

idk much about the history of fantasy but I know gold-mining dwarves feature heavily in German opera repertory and I'm not sure I believe that's due to Celtic influence

# ? May 8, 2016 12:27

Shaquin: May 12, 2007

i loike gene wolfe

# ? May 8, 2016 12:36

Shaquin: May 12, 2007

yeah the book of the new sun but also that one he wrote about the roman soldierwho gets hit on the head and is able to see supernatural beings and stuff was good too

# ? May 8, 2016 12:38

Shaquin: May 12, 2007

bakker's pretty good he comes close to dune level at times

# ? May 8, 2016 12:39

Shaquin: May 12, 2007

the black company novels. imaro the black version of conan

# ? May 8, 2016 12:40

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Shaquin posted:

bakker's pretty good he comes close to dune level at times

bakkers good

Shaquin posted:

the black company novels

meh

# ? May 8, 2016 12:41

Shaquin: May 12, 2007

ah man gormenghast my dudes

# ? May 8, 2016 13:13

a star war betamax: Sep 17, 2011; by Lowtax; Gary’s Answer

No because all fantasy is garbage op

# ? May 8, 2016 13:13

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

The_Angry_Turtle posted:

Now that I'm thinking about it I've decided that LOTR actually didn't have a huge direct impact on fantasy. Instead, it set the foundation for Dungeons and Dragons which in turn influenced generations of fantasy writers who grew up with table top gaming. Authors who didn't have much to to do with D&D or Games Workshop continued innovating but got pushed back behind the gaming influenced fantasy because their stuff was harder to market and monetize.

This is pretty on point. Theres less d&d in modern fantasy than there used to be but the past 35 years have been heavily influenced by d&d, probably because of the success of dragonlance and drizzt books.

# ? May 8, 2016 13:25

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Shaquin posted:

ah man gormenghast my dudes

ive meant to read these for a long time

# ? May 8, 2016 13:29

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

Gormenghast is powerful but I wouldn't really call it fantasy

# ? May 8, 2016 13:33

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

Bakker is not good

quote:

Then he saw . . . it. An abomination walking through dawn twilight.
It was half-again taller than a man, with long, folded wings curved like scythes over its powerful frame. Save where it was mottled by black, cancerous spots, its skin was translucent, and sheathed about a great flared skull shaped like an oyster set on edge. And within the gaping jaws of that skull was fused another, more manlike, so that an almost human face grinned from its watery features.
The Sranc howled with rapture as it passed, and jerked at their groups as they fell to their knees. The mounted Nonmen lowered their shining scalps. It studied the rows of hapless humans, and then its great black eyes fell upon Aengelas. Valrissa sobbed, a mere length away.
You . . . We sense the old fire in you, manling . . .
“I am Werigda!” Aengelas roared.
Do you know what we are?
“The Great Ruiner,” Aengelas gasped.
Noooo, it cooed, as though his mistake had aroused a delicious shiver. We are not He . . . We are His servant. Save my Brother, we are the last of those who descended from the void . . .
“The Great Ruiner!” Aengelas cried.
The abomination had walked ever closer throughout this exchange, until it loomed over his wife and child. Valrissa clutched Bengulla to her bosom, held out a tragic warding hand against the hoary figure.
Will you tell us, manling? Tell us what we need to know?
“But I don’t know!” Aengelas cried. “I know nothing of what you ask!”
Effortlessly, the Xurjranc snapped Valrissa’s tether, and hoisted her before him, held her as though she were a doll. Bengulla shrieked “Mama! Mama!”
Once again the question thundered through Aengelas’s soul. He [missing] tore at the turf.
“I don’t know! I don’t know!”
Beneath the monstrosity’s claws, Valrissa went very still, like a lamb caught in the jaws of a wolf. Her terrified eyes turned from Aengelas, rolled upwards beneath their lids, as though trying to peer at the fig behind her.
“Valrissa!” Aengelas screamed. “Valrissssaa!” Holding her by the throat, the thing languorously picked her clothes away, like the skin of a rotten peach. As her breasts fell free, [garbled] with soft-pink nipples, a sheet of sunlight flickered across the horizon and illuminated her lithe curves . . . But the hunger that held her from behind remained shadowy—like glistening smoke.
Animal violence overcame Aengelas, and he strained at his leash and gagged inarticulate fury.
And a husky voice in his soul said: We are a race of lovers, manling.
“Beaaassee!” Aengelas wept. “I don’t knoooowww . . .” The thing’s free hand traced a thread of blood between her [missing] across the plane of her shuddering belly. Valrissa’s eyes regarded Aengelas, thick with something impossible. She moaned and parted hanging legs to greet the abomination’s hand. A race of lovers . . .
“I don’t know! I don’t! I don’t! Beaase stop! Beaasse!” The thing screeched like a thousand falcons as it plunged into [missing]. Glass thunder. Shivering sky. She bent back her head, her face contracted in pain and bliss. She convulsed and groaned, arched to meet the creature’s thrusts. And when she climaxed, Aengelas crumpled, grasped his head between his hands, beat his face against the turf. The cold felt good against his broken lips.
With an inhuman, dragon gasp, the thing pressed its bruised prick up across her stomach and washed her sunlit breasts with [unclear] black seed. Another thunderous screech, woven by the thin human wail of a woman.
And again it asked the question.
I don’t know . . .
These things make you weak, it said, tossing her like a sack to cold grasses. With a look, it gave her to the Sranc—to their licentious fury. Once again, it asked the question.
The abomination then gave his weeping son—sweet, innocent Bengulla—to the Sranc, and once again asked the question.
I don’t know what you mean . . .
And when the Sranc made a womb of Aengelas himself, it asked—with each raper’s thrust, it asked . . .
Until the gagging shrieks of his wife and child became the question. Until his own deranged howls became the question . . .
His wife and child were dead. Sacks of penetrated flesh with faces that he loved, and still . . . they did things.
Always, the same mad, incomprehensible question.
Who are the Dûnyain?

# ? May 8, 2016 13:39

Booblord Zagats: Oct 30, 2011; Pork Pro

Applewhite posted:

I'd say The Scarlet Citadel. The line "The Yogtha's roots are set in Hell" made me fall in love with the series.

Thats a very good one. I'm a huge fan of the Tower of the Elephant, myself. Really there are very few bad Conan stories pre Ace-books period

# ? May 8, 2016 16:29

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

the dwarves aren't scottish or whatever in lotr like in most fantasy that rips him off. they jews. which makes their love of gold and treasure...problematic.

# ? May 8, 2016 16:35

The_Angry_Turtle: Aug 2, 2007; BLARGH

gold obsessed midgets living underground feature in a lot of European folklore

# ? May 8, 2016 17:07

Applewhite: Aug 16, 2014; by vyelkin; Nap Ghost

The_Angry_Turtle posted:

gold obsessed midgets living underground feature in a lot of European folklore

Just don't enter into a contract with them and you should be fine.

# ? May 8, 2016 17:10

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 08:40

8-Bit Scholar: Jan 23, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

I do not think it's for us to say if Western Fantasy Canon would have been "better off" or not in regards to Tolkien and LOTR. True, it has defined and basically become the framework for Western Fantasy for decades since. This is because it was itself inspired by Norse myths, epic poems, and thousands of years of tradition, storytelling and folklore. LOTRs is emblematic of Western Fantasy that has existed long before it did; it simply brought it to a new era and collected a wide example of tropes and influences under its wings in the process.

Western Fantasy doesn't begin nor end with Lord of the Rings; if Tolkien didn't do it, I daresay somebody else would have made something similar around the same time.

# ? May 8, 2016 17:10

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