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wrt the new resource and idling in NGU; Honestly, this has been my main gripe with Quests. Even after I gave up on being a min-max only-Major-Quests no-idling purist (for maximum gains) I still needed to poke my head in constantly to cash in and re-trigger new idle'd Quests. Kinda wish there was an option to let the Quest idling hand in and trigger a new quest. If the concern is "The feature shouldn't have an option to 100% idle it with no input" then maybe it could only work while you still have Major Quests to burn, after which it would switch off? idk Looking forwards to the new NGU stuff anyways!
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Mar 19, 2019 20:21
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KazigluBey posted:wrt the new resource and idling in NGU; Honestly, this has been my main gripe with Quests. Even after I gave up on being a min-max only-Major-Quests no-idling purist (for maximum gains) I still needed to poke my head in constantly to cash in and re-trigger new idle'd Quests. Kinda wish there was an option to let the Quest idling hand in and trigger a new quest. If the concern is "The feature shouldn't have an option to 100% idle it with no input" then maybe it could only work while you still have Major Quests to burn, after which it would switch off? idk I'm definitely open to considering that! You're right that i want to avoid idling being something that completely trivializes any interaction (except basic training cough)... but the moment any feature in the game feels like a chore to maintain then i feel that's a failing as an idle dev. Perhaps it could even be a upgrade of some sort? VV I think their issue was more that, even when on idle, they have to poke back every so often to hand in/get a new idle quest and even that commitment is annoying to them. something fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 20:25
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KazigluBey posted:wrt the new resource and idling in NGU; Honestly, this has been my main gripe with Quests. Even after I gave up on being a min-max only-Major-Quests no-idling purist (for maximum gains) I still needed to poke my head in constantly to cash in and re-trigger new idle'd Quests. Kinda wish there was an option to let the Quest idling hand in and trigger a new quest. If the concern is "The feature shouldn't have an option to 100% idle it with no input" then maybe it could only work while you still have Major Quests to burn, after which it would switch off? idk There's a perk that "removes randomness from quests" I assume you can pick any quest you want currently saving up to unlock this. My plan is to get a few inventory tabs worth of the same item and spam the same quest for it completely all my major quests without having to baby sit. edit: 4G posted, have I completely misunderstood what that perk level 610 does?
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Mar 19, 2019 20:26
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something posted:VV I think their issue was more that, even when on idle, they have to poke back every so often to hand in/get a new idle quest and even that commitment is annoying to them. Yes the idle quests are a touch annoying and outside of minors are really lovely to do. Stock piling a bunch of items to turn in is what is going to make quests feel good with an idle play style. (If you want to unlock 610 with something else you can just throw a bonus to major quests in there or the drop rate or something, only jerks would get butthurt over it).
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Mar 19, 2019 20:29
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pixaal posted:There's a perk that "removes randomness from quests" I assume you can pick any quest you want currently saving up to unlock this. My plan is to get a few inventory tabs worth of the same item and spam the same quest for it completely all my major quests without having to baby sit. Quest assigned is still random with that perk, it just sets the turn in amount required to always be 50 instead of 50-58
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Mar 19, 2019 20:41
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Yes the perk is an option, but it still implies leaving the game on for long stretches of time. Which, I mean, I'm not adverse to, it's already the main way I work on new Item Sets and then Boosting them. I guess it'll be even less of an issue when the Steam version drops, right now leaving a Firefox window opened with NGU running while I do other stuff is fine unless it's something resource intensive, at which point I have to save and close the dedicated NGU Firefox instance. I believe it's been noted that a standalone version is a lot less resource intensive than the current browser implementation? But I'd still really like for there to be an option for mild quest progress while offline as I suggested before, if only for when you have a massive stack of Major Quests built up that you are in no mood to handle. Plus, this perk option does cost you 320K Perk Points to unlock which uhhh, puts it out of range for people until they've considerably moved past the point Quests first drop in. Not something people at the cutting edge really mind, but right now for example I'm 288K Perk Points from being able to buy it and even before I can consider that I've got other perks to fill out first. edit: Oh, does the randomness removal actually just impact hand-in quantity rather than quest location? If so that's really not a solution at all.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:45
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dipple posted:Quest assigned is still random with that perk, it just sets the turn in amount required to always be 50 instead of 50-58 Oh that is actually really REALLY dumb. 4G please implement quest select somewhere as an unlock.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:45
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Falcon2001 posted:Speaking of kind of new hotnesses for Idle games - I've gotten into Idle Skilling (https://www.kongregate.com/games/lavaflame2/idle-skilling) - I had tried this a while ago and it didn't have much content but there's enough spinning plates now that it's fairly enjoyable. It's relatively similar to NGU or other 'make things go up' games, but the art style's pretty consistent and I generally find it fun. I tried it like awhile ago and found it slow. Came back with lots of gold, did the first ascend and I'm finding it super slow again. There's lot of plates but they all seem to go agonizingly slow, and I'm just spamming skill cooldowns on monsters and grinding that number up. Does it, uh, speed up and/or have more interesting decisions later?
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Mar 19, 2019 20:47
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pixaal posted:Oh that is actually really REALLY dumb. 4G please implement quest select somewhere as an unlock. but... why on earth does that matter? a quest is a quest no matter what randomly selected location is picked, that's more for flavour than anything. And when set to idle it matters even less since it'll progress regardless of location.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:51
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something posted:I'm definitely open to considering that! You're right that i want to avoid idling being something that completely trivializes any interaction (except basic training cough)... but the moment any feature in the game feels like a chore to maintain then i feel that's a failing as an idle dev. Perhaps it could even be a upgrade of some sort? The VV is correct. I'm already taking a 100% hit to QP value, having to open the game more or less hourly just to hand in and load another seems a bit much, especially when no other feature really demands this of me so it'd be the only thing I'd load the game for, if I'm doing say 24 Hour loop rebirths. I think if the added cost was, perhaps, that only Major Quests could be idle-chained this way it'd be fine. You'd eventually burn through your stack and then you'd need to wait for more, for either manual completion or a new offline run.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:51
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something posted:but... why on earth does that matter? a quest is a quest no matter what randomly selected location is picked, that's more for flavour than anything. And when set to idle it matters even less since it'll progress regardless of location. If you can set Quests to only spawn in a set area then you remove some of the micromanagement of the online Major-only manual-hand-in style. You set a Quest, come back in a bit, hand it in and then probably hand it in a bunch more times in sequence, because your inventory is now loaded with several hand-ins worth of the same quest drop. Considering the RNG reduction perk is as expensive and as deep as it is I honestly believed this was how it worked as well, since that's actually beneficial to a specific play-style.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:54
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KazigluBey posted:The VV is correct. I'm already taking a 100% hit to QP value, having to open the game more or less hourly just to hand in and load another seems a bit much, especially when no other feature really demands this of me so it'd be the only thing I'd load the game for, if I'm doing say 24 Hour loop rebirths. I think if the added cost was, perhaps, that only Major Quests could be idle-chained this way it'd be fine. You'd eventually burn through your stack and then you'd need to wait for more, for either manual completion or a new offline run. Right, so if a perk/quirk/whatever was offered that was moderately easy to get, and unlocked the ability to auto cycle major quests, you'd be all for it?
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Mar 19, 2019 20:55
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something posted:Right, so if a perk/quirk/whatever was offered that was moderately easy to get, and unlocked the ability to auto cycle major quests, you'd be all for it? Yep! It'd also have interesting knock-on implications, like suddenly bumping your Quest backlog from 10 to 50 is a LOT more desirable.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:58
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something posted:Right, so if a perk/quirk/whatever was offered that was moderately easy to get, and unlocked the ability to auto cycle major quests, you'd be all for it? I'm in the same boat. I've settled into a "do a few majors after work and clear the backlog during the weekend" but when I miss a weekend due to say copious amounts of alcohol consumption, bashing through 20 majors is pretty poo poo, and even if I totally idled them I still have to come back to my computer every 4-5 hours to press butan. What I usually end up doing is wandering into my room every hour or two to click the items, jump into the next quest and come back, but if I forget or go out or something then I come back to no titan/macguffin drops and an inventory full of crap. I don't need to be earning thousands of QP a day, just something that means I don't have to click a button. Think QoL level ITOPOD shifter: it's definitely better than not having it, but if you don't are you REALLY missing that much?
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Mar 19, 2019 21:06
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Count me as +1 to 'don't much care for questing' for all the reasons listed.
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Mar 19, 2019 23:02
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Questing was a good idea and as is would be fine if they stacked. An upgrade so leveled up ones count for level of turn ins would also be acceptable and would let you use the daycare. Thst might be more interesting. Right now I keep forgetting to turn stuff in AMD idle it for hours and have 4 free inventory slots. I can delete some sure, but then I wasted that time and might as well hope for the right major for an instant turn in.
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Mar 19, 2019 23:19
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Having to wait an hour to use r3 seems odd since it removes a lot of the value of bars. I could understand if the bonuses were locked behind the hour mark also but that will pretty much kill any advantage speedrunning has for exp gain. Which is a shame since having a variety of options to play NGU is one of the things I enjoy most about the game. Granted I haven't done any speedrunning in the last ~3 months but I still suspect it is the king for pure exp gain. I was hitting around 10 mil exp/hour with 3 min runs back then compared to around 100-150 mil exp per day with 24 hour runs. I doubt that gap is as wide now since I'm hitting 350+ mil exp per day with 24 hour runs but it wouldn't surprise me if I could hit 400+ mil exp per day with 3 min runs. Also I agree on the quest discussion where it's annoying to come back to the game after an hour to multiple pages filled with quest items and having to hope the next quest happens to be the same zone. If you don't want to remove the randomness maybe a storage for just quest items could work. Doesn't have to be multiple pages like the current inventory but could have slots for each quest item. The slots could be upgraded to hold more items with exp/ap/pp/qp etc.
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Mar 19, 2019 23:34
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Dragongem posted:I tried it like awhile ago and found it slow. Came back with lots of gold, did the first ascend and I'm finding it super slow again. There's lot of plates but they all seem to go agonizingly slow, and I'm just spamming skill cooldowns on monsters and grinding that number up. Does it, uh, speed up and/or have more interesting decisions later? It does speed up - even the first tier of ascension perks speeds up stuff considerably as they're stacking bonuses. I've only ascended three times and I can already get through the grasslands pretty dang fast, but it's definitely a game where idling is beneficial and you can't just actively play all the time. Honestly I also threw 10bux at it and that helped, because there's a lot of permanant bonuses, and one one-time purchase thing you can get that just gives you more gems over time (I suppose it's a bit of a 'keep playing reward') - although I don't know if you should buy that before you unlock summoning rifts as I'm not 100% sure it works before you can see the rift. I think the other stuff that the dev has added has helped a lot too - Limbo, Crusade and Cards all directly boost your other stuff, so it helps to speed things up, but it's still a game where I generally get things going and then come back tomorrow. And frankly there's some pretty stellar bonuses in the cash shop, although I genuinely liked it enough I don't feel bad about spending 10 bucks on it. At least most of them are permanent upgrades and not just temp boost stuff all over the place. Falcon2001 fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 07:58
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As someone who's pre-evil, active questing just takes up so much time that I'm literally idling away all my major quests and only squeezing in 2-3 manual ones when I'm about to cap my 50 quests. It just takes so much time and handholding that it's really inconvenient to try and blow through them all. I assume it gets better with the evil perks, but if I want to do some questing and I've got the time, it pretty much ruins my itopod farming for actual progression.
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Mar 20, 2019 10:44
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it's supposed to interrupt your progression in itopod
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Mar 20, 2019 11:03
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Ghostlight posted:it's supposed to interrupt your progression in itopod
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Mar 20, 2019 13:02
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Agent355 posted:Count me as +1 to 'don't much care for questing' for all the reasons listed. Same This feature doesn't work at all for me and feels out of place in a idle game that otherwise really nails this genre. It's been several days since i did a quest and im perpetually at 10/10 quests available I have lost count of how many times i started a quest, then was unable to check the game for a while due to life, and coming back to 240 inventory slots of the same item, 190 of which are useless (1 single time have i gotten 2 quests in a row to the same location) I think my biggest issue is that it feels like i have wasted time/potential progress, the time spent getting all those superfluous quest items and getting zero progress could have been better spent idling in ITOPOD, which means i just idle in ITOPOD all the time instead. EDIT: Also a nitpick: The quests menu claims that active quests rewards double the QP while technically idle quests reward HALF the QP. Ineptitude fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 14:21
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+1 to the quest issue. I really don't like doing them.
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Mar 20, 2019 14:25
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nthing the quest apathy. I just idle majors and don't give a poo poo about the reduced rewards because optimizing them is too much work/active attention for me.
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Mar 20, 2019 14:44
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I'm approaching beast v1 and I was looking forward to questing. Should I be worried? e: or relieved that everyone is outright disliking it so it might get changes
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Mar 20, 2019 16:22
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Musluk posted:I'm approaching beast v1 and I was looking forward to questing. Should I be worried? It's perfectly fine at first. It just gets really tedious as there's no way to make it quicker. 4G is now aware of the issue and will likely correct it. Let's move on though. New Topic (because let's stop beating a dead horse): I haven't seen any interesting idle games in awhile. Well I've seen some that were fun for a day or two like the ball break one on Kong is pretty fun but it goes nowhere and is poorly balanced. I also played some wasteland game that was in early access on Android for a week or so. That was also poorly balanced and basically useless offline after the first 4-5 days since you no longer needed anything you got in offline mode. So many games seem to now be about shoving ads in your face, when even a few years ago Idle games were made as a hobby or learning to program project where they had no intention of getting money and they just were.
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Mar 20, 2019 16:30
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Can confirm i am well aware of the issues and appreciate being alerted. I'm not likepy to change the system that rewards extra QP to active quests - i still feel that having something reward active is fine and there is definitely a group that play them that way and like it. what i do think needs improvement is making the idle mode actually set-it and forget it, by adding auto cycling to idle quests. I'll also a few perks/quirks of some variety that directly improves the speed of idling quests. If you guys have any other ideas lemme know!
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Mar 20, 2019 17:42
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Yeah that sounds great to me, auto-cycling and having a way to improve the speed of idle questing would go a really long way. I'm totally fine getting less rewards for idle than active as long as idle is actually idle. You could even make something like a 'quest log' gag where the log (as in, large piece of wood with writing on it) lets you queue up X amount of quests to do in succession. You could have upgrades to the log itself too allowing you to queue more in a row or have it auto-fill with minor quests when you run out of majors? I bet even the folks who like to active-play their major quests would enjoy having a more chufty idle quest system for minors. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 17:47
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pixaal posted:So many games seem to now be about shoving ads in your face, when even a few years ago Idle games were made as a hobby or learning to program project where they had no intention of getting money and they just were. Mobile idlers are infested with ads and IAPs, while non-mobiles generally don't have any depth to them, sadly. And then there's the sandcastle builder.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:56
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Musluk posted:Mobile idlers are infested with ads and IAPs, while non-mobiles generally don't have any depth to them, sadly. And then there's the sandcastle builder. Go back 3-4 years and every idle game was in a browser and actually well made and trying to improve the genre. AdCap was revolutionary, then it sold out and showed everyone that there is money in Idle games. There were mixed reactions but still plenty of free games with no ads and no way to give the dev money. Games started adding donate buttons due to player pressure "I can give the AdCap Guy money but I can't give you money and you make a better game" I believe is the exact argument that was used to get Trimps to add a donate button. Very few Idle games have nailed sane prices and good game play. Most are free and lovely, or giant money whores. I miss 3 new idle games with new ideas coming out every week it was so easy to waste an entire week running 12+ idle games in different tabs.
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Mar 20, 2019 18:14
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something posted:Can confirm i am well aware of the issues and appreciate being alerted. I'm not likepy to change the system that rewards extra QP to active quests - i still feel that having something reward active is fine and there is definitely a group that play them that way and like it. what i do think needs improvement is making the idle mode actually set-it and forget it, by adding auto cycling to idle quests. I'll also a few perks/quirks of some variety that directly improves the speed of idling quests. If you guys have any other ideas lemme know! I'm someone who is mostly fine with the active quests as-is, but I want to repeat someone else's suggestion to have some sort of long-term storage of extra quest item drops would be really, REALLY nice. Assuming we don't get the option to just keep getting the same quest over and over again (which would probably be one of the more extreme ways of alleviating the active pressure), something like "The Beast's Pantry" that could hold X of each quest turn-in for future major quests would almost guarantee that manual drops aren't wasted. You would still be limited to how many drops you can get while away based on your inventory size (I think that giving inventory space value again was a good side-effect of the quest system, and this would preserve that), but eventually you'll get to actually use those items beyond what the quest required that had dropped. On another topic, I just noticed the other day that Blood McGuffin Alpha isn't really worth the effort anymore. It was cool when you first got McGuffins and you had a bunch with levels in the teens but I think it could use the Iron Pill treatment. My stats aren't high enough to BB the highest magic ritual or anything but I still only get ~4-6 levels per cast, which isn't really worth the attention now.
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Mar 20, 2019 18:23
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Manyorcas posted:On another topic, I just noticed the other day that Blood McGuffin Alpha isn't really worth the effort anymore. It was cool when you first got McGuffins and you had a bunch with levels in the teens but I think it could use the Iron Pill treatment. My stats aren't high enough to BB the highest magic ritual or anything but I still only get ~4-6 levels per cast, which isn't really worth the attention now. It caps out around 8 levels for both alpha and beta I BB everything with pretty high blood multipliers. I still push the buttons because BBing magic is under 1% of my magic but the alpha feels almost pointless and the beta is a tad meh too at this point since I get 50 levels per day from the daycare on 6 of my choice.
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Mar 20, 2019 18:31
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How about having the spells give you a % of the levels you have on the mcguffin? That way it will always be relevant, without having to add a pp or other feature to them
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Mar 20, 2019 21:10
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Ineptitude posted:How about having the spells give you a % of the levels you have on the mcguffin? That could be extremely dangerous for a run away effect. MacGuffins already grow a stat every rebirth and that increases as they level up. Increasing the speed you level up that dramatically could easily break things. I already think MacGuffin levels are getting crazy high. I haven't actually paid too much attention to what they are actually doing but I think they have decently high diminishing returns anyway.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:15
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pixaal posted:Go back 3-4 years and every idle game was in a browser and actually well made and trying to improve the genre. AdCap was revolutionary, then it sold out and showed everyone that there is money in Idle games. There were mixed reactions but still plenty of free games with no ads and no way to give the dev money. Games started adding donate buttons due to player pressure "I can give the AdCap Guy money but I can't give you money and you make a better game" I believe is the exact argument that was used to get Trimps to add a donate button. Very few Idle games have nailed sane prices and good game play. Most are free and lovely, or giant money whores. I mean, general socioeconomic climate and the viability of hosting a game notwithstanding, the genre's been fleshed out now. There are examples of polished, well designed games and nobody wants to make a "clone" unless it's going to make them money. If you go back to a lot of the games that you would run like that (I did the same) you'll find that they have a ton of infuriating mechanics, require constant attention or clicking or micromanaging of resources with caps. It was fine then, but nowadays wouldn't fly and generally speaking writing one is probably more of an undertaking than it was back then. You can still get away with pretty minimalist UI/concept but the actual mechanics of it need to both crunchy and intuitive, and that takes a lot more time than you can reasonably expect out of a hobbyist.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:33
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Eldercain posted:I mean, general socioeconomic climate and the viability of hosting a game notwithstanding, the genre's been fleshed out now. There are examples of polished, well designed games and nobody wants to make a "clone" unless it's going to make them money. If you go back to a lot of the games that you would run like that (I did the same) you'll find that they have a ton of infuriating mechanics, require constant attention or clicking or micromanaging of resources with caps. It was fine then, but nowadays wouldn't fly and generally speaking writing one is probably more of an undertaking than it was back then. You can still get away with pretty minimalist UI/concept but the actual mechanics of it need to both crunchy and intuitive, and that takes a lot more time than you can reasonably expect out of a hobbyist. Yeah it's also worth noting that a lot of Idle Games benefit from having LOTS TO DO, so the established players have a leg up on new folks. Realm Grinder has so much more ahead of new players than some new idle game that comes out and is just 'hey you click a thing and wait'. Plate spinning is the fun part.
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Mar 20, 2019 22:46
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Falcon2001 posted:Plate spinning is the fun part. To an extent, anyways - there's certainly such a thing as diminishing returns; see also the current debates over the questing system. The rewards from the plate spinning are dramatically out of line from the time and energy needed to keep them spinning. I also feel the same way about my first few weeks in Evil, but I've always never been eye-to-eye with 4G/the overall community's idea of where speed of progression and balance should be, so I'm used to it by now. It is what it is.
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Mar 20, 2019 22:56
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Kyrosiris posted:To an extent, anyways - there's certainly such a thing as diminishing returns; see also the current debates over the questing system. The rewards from the plate spinning are dramatically out of line from the time and energy needed to keep them spinning. Yeah, true. I was being over simplistic.
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Mar 21, 2019 00:27
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For me I like coming home or waking up and having stuff to buy or so for a bit and then coming back later to more poo poo. Y'know, idle games
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Mar 21, 2019 02:48
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So at the same time as revisiting Wall Destroyer i also decided to play Mine Defense again. Everything was smooth sailing, i got to the end game, have all 25 buildings, 1T of all creatures except dragonhunters, and the only thing left now is to get the last tiers of dragons, aaaand i cannot remember what to do here. Like i am extremely bottlenecked by elemental essence to the point it will take several weeks of pure idling to afford a single further tier of dragons for the essence i get the most of. Is the solution to simply get 100 dragon hunters so i can transmute them, then use the then much higher dragon scale production to level the dragon shrines a lot higher? (They are all 75 atm) I genuinely do not remember this stage of the game taking this much time without anything at all to do except wait
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Mar 21, 2019 08:59
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