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VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Arzachel posted:

If you have a dust filter for the bottom fans, try running them as intakes instead. Might slightly increase the temps but will make sure that the filters actually collect all the cat floof.

You don't want to run the fans as intake in that case unless you're running your heatsinks fanless because you end up pushing against the exhaust airflow from both the CPU and the gpu. I believe its been tested to be at least several degrees warmer and when you're so limited by CPU cooler height restrictions, that can be pretty rough.

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VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The top is open, but you might be right - most of the tests showing exhaust yielding better results with downdraft coolers use vented side panels so you get air coming in the sides and leaving the top and bottom.

With solid panels it might not matter as much or at all.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



LordAdakos posted:

Also, you might want to take a look at the price vs performance difference between the 3600 and 3600XT

The XT series is the Zen2 refresh series. It bumps the performance by a significant margin but also increases the TDP from 65 to 105 iirc.

Just something to keep your eye on, especially if you can find the stock 3600 for cheap and don't want the extra power draw.

The 3600xt is like 2-4% faster than the 3600 for like an $80 difference. It is faster, but I wouldn't call the difference significant. The additional power consumption isn't as bad as the specs make it seem (something like 10-15w in actual use iirc) but still relevant for sff. I don't think the 3600xt makes sense at all unless you live somewhere where the price difference is like $5-10.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



orcane posted:

If it works like the 3600X the TDP difference is in default behaviour, if you set the limits accordingly in the BIOS you can probably make them draw equal amounts of power (but the 3600XT might be very slightly faster/more efficient there). It's not really worth $80 in cases where you can run them at their "auto-OC" boost clocks all day long and even less so in SFF cases where you may or may not want to limit their long term power consumption somewhat.

Also people said the case just about fits the NH-U12A with a height of 158 mm despite of the official clearance saying 155 mm max. The Hyper 212 is 159 mm though so

Oh also the B550 chipset was officially released in mid June so yeah. For a 3600 you could technically also use a B450 mainboard (with a minor risk of getting one that needs a BIOS update), but B550 (and some X570) boards can have faster LAN and WLAN. The rest of the updated specs don't matter much in SFF PCs.

Yes, you can drop the ppt on the 3600x/xt to 88w to maybe get a better binned 3600. You might get like 50-100mhz 1C boost for $80 which is pretty garbage. I'm still firmly in the camp that unless the price difference is like $10 you shouldn't consider the xt.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



abraham linksys posted:

update on this: the Gigabyte B550 went back in stock on Newegg yesterday, and went out of stock while I was debating whether to pull the trigger on this build

is there any downside to getting the Gigabyte B450 instead? it claims to have Ryzen 3XXX compatibility out of the box, and it has wifi and Bluetooth all for $120, which seems like a good deal. only immediate missing feature I see is USB-C which doesn't seem like a huge deal: https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-b450-i-aorus-pro-wifi/p/N82E16813145086

No pcie4, may not take zen3 are the main caveats on b450 vs b550.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Bear in mind that the 3080 will probably have like 25% higher power consumption out of the box than the 1080ti. I have a feeling ampere's going to be rough on people accustomed to cramming top of the stack gpus in very small spaces with relatively quiet performance.

I've already talked myself down to a 3070 after the 3080 briefly made me consider a custom loop over air.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm




Just so nobody gets caught unaware, this is sfx-l, not sfx.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



There's something to be said for an overbuilt vrm even without overclocking because it'll be easier to keep cool in low airflow situations which is often relevant to sff.

Obviously there's a point where it becomes a bit ridiculous.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



For anyone who's been trying to get one, I was just able to actually order an sf750 from corsairs website. Who knows how long that'll last though.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



That's pretty much optimal. The fuma2 won't fit with the glass panel so that isn't even an option.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Depending how thick your gpu is you may not fit 25mm fans in the bottom, and may not fit a 25mm fan in the top just above the CPU cooler depending on the distance of the CPU socket to the top edge of the motherboard, but negative pressure up top seems to be the best in general.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



buglord posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADgZXh_p_NA

Silverstone you had one job with updating the SG-13

Tbh that seemed like a way lazier review than he normally does and it doesn't look like he tested the primary thing you'd probably be interested in that case for (nh-d15s + 140mm exhaust fans). I'd still be interested in seeing someone do that before I just write it off...

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



B-Mac posted:

I had the SG14 and returned it for many of the same reasons that review had. The D15 barely fit and you could use it with the middle fan, not enough room for a second 140mm and only room for a slim fan as exhaust next to the CPU cooler. The GPU Support bracket interfered with installation and my EVGA backplate was making contact with the metal panel behind it. It was very disappointing, the NR200 is a much better case IMO.

Getting a standard thickness exhaust fan behind the d15 would be entirely dependant on the distance of the socket to the io edge on the motherboard, no? Or does the mount actually protrude inward?

Sucks about the gpu support though, I had high hopes.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The corsair sf platinum variants are apparently very quiet. Just impossible to buy a lot of the time.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



SalTheBard posted:

I posted a similar question in the PC Building thread. Basically what I was told by multiple people that it's worth upgrading a 4 core processor if that's all you have.

To add to this, aren't the Ubisoft open world games specifically notorious for choking on 4c/4t processors?

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



My nr200 just arrived. They shipped the wrong color but otherwise seems nice.

The panel fastening mechanism makes me so nervous though, I can totally see those plastic nubs snapping off. What's so bad about screws anyways?

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The best thing about the nr200 is the insane airflow and cooling potential. In fairness to razer, I guess it makes sense to wait for reviews but just looking at it, ventilation looks way more restricted.

A bunch of high power parts in that case doesn't look like a good time unless I'm missing something.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Warmachine posted:

If you're planning to upgrade to a 30xx at any point, I might choose to hold out for a Corsair SF750. They will hopefully reappear at sane prices in the next few months, but if you're lucky you can sometimes grab one much closer to MSRP. The extra overhead is nice for overclocking if you plan on doing any of that.

Specifically a 3080 or 3090 - the 3070 is supposedly going to draw much less power (somewhere in the 230w range) and should be more than fine with ~600w.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



DrDork posted:

As long as you're not trying to run an Intel chip OC'ed to the moon, plenty of people are running 3080's on a 600W PSU without issue. You can't really overclock them meaningfully, anyhow. In fact, a bunch of people have been able to undervolt and shave up to 50W off the things with only low single-digit performance loss, which is hilarious. If you're going AMD, overclocking their CPUs is basically a pointless exercise, too.

I mean, all things being equal, sure, a 750W unit over a 650W makes sense. But if your choice is 650W or nothing, or the price delta is considerable, a 650W is unlikely to actually limit you.

Also not sure what the market in the UK looks like, but in the US Seasonic has a SFF 650 for basically the same price as the EVGA one, and Seasonic has a 10 year warranty, which you simply can't beat.

As much as I love seasonic and would buy them absolutely everywhere I could, I don't believe they make a true sfx unit under their own brand, just sfx-l, which can get you in to trouble depending on your case.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



abraham linksys posted:

I guess the one weird thing w the NR200P is it comes with two 120mm top fans instead of the 120mm top fan & 92mm rear fan that the NR200 comes with. I have no idea why this is the case, but it just seems goofy to spend $20 more for stuff I don't need, then have to go spend more money to get a 92mm fan (since I'm pretty sure two top fans isn't exactly ideal airflow?)

2x top exhaust is real good in that case although I have no idea how good the stock fans are and no inclination to find out.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



abraham linksys posted:

amazon isn't giving me that option in their little return wizard, probably because it's not a great move to leave packages sitting on your porch here, sadly. hopefully by the end of january we're either over our inevitable second wave of covid or so in-the-midst-of-it i can convince amazon to grant an extension, though


silly question, but just to clarify: I'm getting a Noctua U9S, which sits on a CPU like this and, as far as I know, doesn't rotate:



given it's gonna be pulling air from the front and venting out the back (I guess??), would it be best to get front/rear fans to go with that, or will this be powerful enough on its own that its a non-issue unless I really want to optimize temperatures?

There are no front fans or ventilation. Fan mounts are 2x120 top, 2x120 bottom, 2x140 side rail (if you have clearance - most tower coolers don't), 1x92mm rear.

Many of these positions can be blocked based on part selection. For example, using the sfx-l side psu mount position means no standard thickness fan in the top over the psu.

Basically negative pressure in the top is going to be best for gpu thermals. So if you go exhaust top x2 and exhaust tower cooler rear, that's best for gpu (assuming vented side not glass). You can flip the cpu cooler to intake from the rear but keep the top exhaust and you'll get better CPU thermals at the expense of gpu, so you have to pick.

I don't know enough about the d9l to know if it blocks either the back or top fan but I suspect probably not.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



ijyt posted:

I'd say go with the NH-U12A, and two bottom intake fans for an NR200 set up. Check the video below at 9:29, the H210 has a 165mm clearance so plenty of room for the U12A. If you're going with the H210 at the moment, set up two front intake fans for whatever airflow you can get out of those narrow side channels.

Wouldn't really need an exhaust fan with the NH-U12A, as the gap between the two fans would probably be quite small and just introduce noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUK7p9qQnU#t=569s

Yeah generally going back to back with fans is not gonna work super well. Also consider the fuma 2 which is technically inside the height limit of the case and real good value at $60.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Butterfly Valley posted:

Fuma 2 blocks the back top case fan, which isn't the worst thing in the world but something to consider.

This is going to depend on a) motherboard socket placement and b) which direction you install the cooler. I've seen pictures of people getting a top fan over it on gigabyte mbs (which are sort of a worst case scenario) as long as they have installed such that there isn't room for a fan on the back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sffpc/comments/i8xq9p/fuma_2_in_nr200_fits_with_2x_120_fans_on_top/

Then again tolerances might be so tight it varies from unit to unit. It's something I'm going to try so I'll report back I guess.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



ijyt posted:

Little old me looking to get an NR200, 3080 FE, 5900X, and SF750.

Pretty much the same build I'm going for except the FE part. Got the nr200 and the sf750, hopefully dell won't gently caress me on my 3080 order (they will).

Then I get to decide whether to spend $240 on A12x25s or roll the dice on fan noise with arctic p12s. I'm so dumb this is gonna cost like a million dollars if I can even get a gpu.

Why do I want a computer built entirely from unobtanium?

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Butterfly Valley posted:

Where are you planning on putting 8 fans in the nr200

Whoops, I can't do math - would be $200ish for 6 after tax.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



ijyt posted:

You bet your rear end I'm taking photos of an ITX board in a full tower case because I can't get an NR200.

Trying to build a pc in 2020 has been an interesting experience. I'm constantly waking up at like 3am as my many product alerts ping and I scramble to hit the 8 second window to buy parts before they go out of stock or the retailers website crashes from load.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Sphyre posted:

what do you people have against AIOs. i have a kraken x something or other mounted on the side bracket and it's Good As Hell

Shorter lifespan, more failure points, more catastrophic failure modes, potentially pump noise. Cheapest good aio (arctic freezer ii 280) is like $100 vs $60 for the fuma 2.

Edit: not that I would try to cram an arctic freezer in the nr200. Some crazy people have done it but the hose routing looks... uncomfortable. The kraken series is probably a better fit, but those are more expensive still. Probably 130-150 for a 280. For that price you could buy 2 fuma 2s and weld them together.

VorpalFish fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Oct 23, 2020

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



DrDork posted:

Most AIOs from reputable companies last 5+ years, but I suppose it's true that you can't just leave them on there forever. Pump noise is hit or miss, but I've never had an issue with one as long as I had it installed right and put a little effort into making sure I got any bubbles out of the pump itself. Can't really say much about catastrophic failures--it's a potential risk, albeit not one that's likely to occur. Corsair, NZXT, and EVGA have been known to cover parts destroyed by leaks, but I don't think they actually have that policy in writing. Personally, I have a cheap (like $1/mo?) rider on my homeowners insurance for computer coverage, so it's not a real concern of mine in the first place, but obviously that doesn't apply to everyone.

You really don't need a 280 AIO for a CPU though, especially an AMD one with a mild overclock. There's often only a 1-3C difference in performance between a 120 and a 280 until you start getting crazy, like pushing 300W through a 10900k. An H60 is ~$80 and performs very well and should fit well in those cases.

If you aren't going 280 why go aio at all? An H60 is probably gonna straight up get beaten by the tower coolers (context of the conversation is the nr200 which can fit the fuma 2 and the u12a).

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



DrDork posted:

I haven't seen a direct comparison, but a H60 is usually +/- 1-2C from a NH-D15, so you can work your assessment from there.

The "why" is space. The guy literally said the U12A didn't fit with the NR200P with his setup. But yeah, if you can fit a nice air cooler it's not like you're going to get noticeably better performance out of an AIO--and that applies to the 280's, as well. They're total overkill for a ~150W CPU.

Now if you want to talk custom loop, then a 280 makes a lot of sense if you're wiring both the CPU and GPU into it.

+/- a few degrees doesn't mean much absent noise. If you noise normalize it gets dumpstered by big air coolers.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Obviously if you're extremely height constrained but have room for a small aio it can make sense. But I'd never take one over a big tower cooler or a large aio given the choice because I'm sensitive to noise and want to run fans slowly.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



DrDork posted:

At low temps, you're right, since the H60 is a constant-speed pump and therefore will generally be louder at "idle" than a good air cooler. At load it evens out to pretty similar, though. I finally found a direct comparison: https://techbuyersguru.com/corsair-hydro-h60-2018-cpu-cooler-review?page=3

But yeah, if you're looking for a "silent" PC, a constant-speed pump like the H60 ain't the way to go. Either you want the Fuma if you spend most of your time at idle / low load, the U12S if you spend most of your time at higher load, or a Kraken X41 since it's variable speed (but those are also >$100 so the value proposition is poor).

Basically if you can get away with an air cooler, you might as well do so. But if you can't physically fit it, there are viable AIO options that will do quite well.

Of course the real answer is to drink the funny-colored koolaid and go full custom loop and try really hard not to think about how you just spent more for pipes and pumps and blocks than you did on most of the rest of the system combined.

When I look at that load chart I see it getting poo poo on by the u12s - 28 db vs 37 dba for 175w load and 33 vs 40 for 200w load at nominally the same temperatures. And the u12s is straight up worse than the u12a.

But yeah if money and maintenance is no barrier full on custom loop with a 280 side and 240 bottom rad is probably gonna be unbeatable.

All things of course depend on the situation and your build constraints. If I sound negative on aios it's not because I think they don't have a place; rather the dude upthread asked what was wrong with them so I was more laying out the reasons why someone might opt for air instead.

Fwiw I don't think the chance an aio from a reputable brand leaks is high at all.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



DrDork posted:

Yeah, don't get me wrong, if you can fit them there's really no reason to consider anything other than the Fuma/U12. It's when you can't that you gotta start looking elsewhere.

The other use for an AIO is when you want really directed thermal control. For example, I'm trying to figure out a build in a Evolv Shift, which is well known for looking cool as hell and having abysmal thermals because it was designed by someone who apparently never bothered to actually run a system in one. I could toss a Fuma in there, but it would cook itself because the airflow is so poor--so I'm likely to end up either with an AIO or possibly a full loop if I get drunk enough one of these nights with my wallet near my computer, simply so I can redirect the heat out the bottom.

The evolv shift is brutal for thermals especially if you want the glass version. I can definitely see going with 2 120mm aios for that case with one on the gpu (or custom loop with 2 120 rads).

Again not totally against aios, just presenting the case for the other side.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The evolv shift is actually the first sff case I wanted to build in cause it does look very cool but in finally managed to convince myself I could never make the thermals work at noise levels I could live with.

Edit: you are literally a crazy person if you put a 300w gpu in that case.

VorpalFish fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 23, 2020

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



They're still working on the miniature black hole generator so the brown fans can properly absorb light and appear black please be patient.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Vigil for Virgil posted:

Is it worth paying almost double for the Noctua over the Scythe? I can't find anything to justify it or is it just Noctua is a more well known brand?

If you're talking about the U12A what you're actually paying for is the 2 fans it comes with. The A12x25 fans are basically the best all around 120mm fan out there although there are some that come close for like 40% of the price.

The fuma 2 is a solid value, so if you care about perf/$ it's kind of a no brainer over the U12A.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The SF600 and SF750 platinum have been hard as gently caress to buy all year. Hopefully availability is starting to normalize.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



I ordered white but got black instead - bought from a third party seller on Amazon. Just said gently caress it and kept it cause I don't wanna deal with trying to get a replacement in this environment.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



Yeah almost $350 is...yikes.

VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



jink posted:

I really like that Winter One case...

Not sure why we have a response of 'too expensive'? The case that I showed https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3776587&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=78#post508776349 was well over $350... and I've been using it for over 7 years.

My point is; a well designed case can certainly be worth the money and last you a long, long time.

It's surprising to me how quick the community will jump on $1000+ video cards that last 3-5 years but a case is a 'no'?

Show me a case that can produce 100+ fps at 4k and I won't blink at the $700 price tag.

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VorpalFish
Mar 22, 2007
reasonably awesometm



The biggest problem is not necessarily the case itself breaking but rather hardware and case designs evolving around it. I can't think of a lot of 10+ year old cases I'd like to build in today...

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