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texasmed
May 27, 2004


There actually is DLC. Polish tech tree, custom units for a couple of countries, and some boats.



Also from what I've learned on the World War Wednesday videos, the battle plan AI is still going to require at least a little bit of micromanagement to keep your units from getting themselves surrounded. I think in some instances the AI would halt a number of divisions as they waited for one unit to get into position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeliuhVoUoI#t=538s

I'm still going to buy the game probably, but I wanted to point these two things out.

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Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006



Drone posted:

For what it's worth, I live in Germany too and I'm nearly positive that you can play the German version in the English language. No Hitler portrait for us though.

It's not like this is exactly a new thing for Paradox, and it is German law. In previous Hearts of Iron incarnations, the German versions even went so far as to completely rename Hitler (to Alois Hiller or something like that)

Germans aren't even allowed to gaze longingly at portraits of Hitler?

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011


az posted:

No get that poo poo out of here. Germany is very much not revisionist towards WW2 and the law is direct result of denazification, curbing revivalism and protecting democratic values. It stipulates that media can only display certain Nazi affiliated things such as swastikas for educational, historical or a narrow band of artistic reasons. Display for sheer entertainment or the heck of it is verboten because dumb wehraboos would get ideas to heil hitler up and down the street with their lovely flags. Developers take them out beforehand because they don't want to risk the German video game classification agency to get an itchy trigger finger and restrict sales of their game because some dumb nazi nerd roleplays a swastika adorned Hitler pursuing the final solution in their entertainment product.

I'm just baffled that it's okay to have Hitler in the game, as far as I can gather he is not renamed, leading the nazi party as long as his face is hidden. Is he the Prophet or something?

az
Dec 2, 2005



^^It's not that he's a German prophet that would make all blonde blue eyed Germans weak in the knees if they saw him but the law says, paraphrased, that it is illegal to display*1 "means of propaganda"*2 of entities declared unlawful by the Supreme Court of Germany, entities that are without a doubt continuations or copies of such and otherwise or general organisations of the NSDAP or the national socialist government/movement.

*1
This does not apply when said means of propaganda are used for "popular education, defense against anti-constitutional agency, the arts or sciences, research or teaching, reporting of historical events or similar". Note that "arts" in the text of the law is not further defined and video games aren't classified as arts yet afaik and good luck wedging that amendment into the constitution.

*2
Article 2 of the law this is from stipulates that "means of propaganda" are items that violate the "free democratic order" or the ideals of "understanding among nations" aka no wars of aggression/crimes against humanity etc.
This is the weakpoint of this law because it's very loose and reliant on context and use. Nazis marching in the streets demanding abolition of the governemnt whilst holding swastiak flags? Anti democratic, unlawful, jail time. Video game Hitler? Ehhhhhhh..???

At the end of the day developers and publishers self censor to avoid any kind of hassle. They could put Hitler in but would have to be prepared to go to court defending it because some clownshoe made a youtube video playing Hearts of Iron Greater Reich simulator and then argue that videogames are art and they are not responsible for defective teenagers worshipping false idols with the prosecution arguing that they are the ones giving the user the tools and setting (after all you can play as Hitler instead of just shooting his rear end) to do the worshipping whilst agitating for anti democratic values and really who wants to deal with all that bullshit. Not to mention that more than a handful of people would be upset that you could play Hitler and vote it down on metacritic or smth.

It's an old law drawn up in a hurry to serve as an enforcement tool for keeping Germany free and democratic, esp. in the contxt of what happened at the tail end of the Weimar republic and being the new frontline of the cold war.

Those were too many words on law for a video games forum, I'm looking forward to playing Hitlers of Iron and pray Merkel's Gestapo doesn't grab me when I do :/


DOMDOM posted:

What makes me sad about this statement is that it basically says Germans can't be trusted without censorship and handholding, but I'll bite my tongue as the rest of this argument belongs in d&d

It doesn't really though and if you are at all interested in the specifics you should read up on the pains the western Allies, German postwar politicians and the fledgling Federal Republic went to to stop the revanchist spiral before it kicked off and create a democratic Germany that wouldn't vote itself to extinction again, before you throw out "herp derp germany is revisionist".

Arglebargle III posted:

Germans aren't even allowed to gaze longingly at portraits of Hitler?

If they do it educationally they are, but no gay stuff because that would be too close to entertainment.

az fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 04:01

TeenageArchipelago
Jul 23, 2013


Has there been any dlc news for the cyoa?

Arrhythmia
Jul 22, 2011



TeenageArchipelago posted:

Has there been any dlc news for the cyoa?

Randarkman
Jul 18, 2011


az posted:

^^It's not that he's a German prophet that would make all blonde blue eyed Germans weak in the knees if they saw him but the law says, paraphrased, that it is illegal to display*1 "means of propaganda"*2 of entities declared unlawful by the Supreme Court of Germany, entities that are without a doubt continuations or copies of such and otherwise or general organisations of the NSDAP or the national socialist government/movement.

*1
This does not apply when said means of propaganda are used for "popular education, defense against anti-constitutional agency, the arts or sciences, research or teaching, reporting of historical events or similar". Note that "arts" in the text of the law is not further defined and video games aren't classified as arts yet afaik and good luck wedging that amendment into the constitution.

*2
Article 2 of the law this is from stipulates that "means of propaganda" are items that violate the "free democratic order" or the ideals of "understanding among nations" aka no wars of aggression/crimes against humanity etc.
This is the weakpoint of this law because it's very loose and reliant on context and use. Nazis marching in the streets demanding abolition of the governemnt whilst holding swastiak flags? Anti democratic, unlawful, jail time. Video game Hitler? Ehhhhhhh..???

At the end of the day developers and publishers self censor to avoid any kind of hassle. They could put Hitler in but would have to be prepared to go to court defending it because some clownshoe made a youtube video playing Hearts of Iron Greater Reich simulator and then argue that videogames are art and they are not responsible for defective teenagers worshipping false idols with the prosecution arguing that they are the ones giving the user the tools and setting (after all you can play as Hitler instead of just shooting his rear end) to do the worshipping whilst agitating for anti democratic values and really who wants to deal with all that bullshit. Not to mention that more than a handful of people would be upset that you could play Hitler and vote it down on metacritic or smth.

It's an old law drawn up in a hurry to serve as an enforcement tool for keeping Germany free and democratic, esp. in the contxt of what happened at the tail end of the Weimar republic and being the new frontline of the cold war.

Those were too many words on law for a video games forum, I'm looking forward to playing Hitlers of Iron and pray Merkel's Gestapo doesn't grab me when I do :/

I'm still weirded out that it's that easy to get around that law.

ass struggle
Dec 25, 2012





texasmed posted:

There actually is DLC. Polish tech tree, custom units for a couple of countries, and some boats.



Also from what I've learned on the World War Wednesday videos, the battle plan AI is still going to require at least a little bit of micromanagement to keep your units from getting themselves surrounded. I think in some instances the AI would halt a number of divisions as they waited for one unit to get into position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeliuhVoUoI#t=538s

I'm still going to buy the game probably, but I wanted to point these two things out.

Just pointing out that the Polish DLC comes with the game for free, and whenever you buy it.

GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011



Randarkman posted:

I'm still weirded out that it's that easy to get around that law.

The law is really not meant to target videogames as such (exceptions being stuff like KZ Manager) but to prevent people from spreading actual Nazi propaganda. The problem with regards to video games is that in 1994 an Amtsgericht (lowest court in Germany) judge decided that Wolfenstein 3D and with it any videogame could never be classified as art and no one ever tried to challenge that precedent but instead publishers decided to self-censor to ensure that they are not in violation of that particular law.

What would be needed is a publisher (or developer) having the balls to publish a Game with Swastikas in Germany and defend the game as a product of art in the art.


But this all is really not important because if you live in Germany and want HoI4 with the real Hitler (which is not forbidden, only selling the game might be problematic) just order it from https://www.imperialgames.com (cheapest I found) and use a VPN to activate it from a location outside of Germany.

Empress Theonora
Feb 19, 2001

She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.



slavatuvs posted:

Just pointing out that the Polish DLC comes with the game for free, and whenever you buy it.

Yeah, they've said this a bunch of times but it might have gotten lost since it was announced alongside the preorder bonuses-- it's free now and it's free if you buy the game later on. The only reason it's a separate DLC instead of just part of the basegame is because they started working on it separately when they thought HoI IV was coming out much sooner, and had it done by the release date because of the delay.

beer_war
Mar 10, 2005


az posted:

*1
This does not apply when said means of propaganda are used for "popular education, defense against anti-constitutional agency, the arts or sciences, research or teaching, reporting of historical events or similar". Note that "arts" in the text of the law is not further defined and video games aren't classified as arts yet afaik and good luck wedging that amendment into the constitution.

Luckily, the German Basic Law doesn't try to define what is and isn't art, so no such amendment is required. The fact that, say, Indiana Jones movies can display swastikas while Indy games cannot is instead based on a nearly 20 year old ruling concerning Wolfenstein 3D.

A court today might very well decide differently, but the legal battle might take years, the outcome is uncertain, and sales of the game would be suspended until there is a final decision. Understandably, developers and publishers prefer to just remove the offending symbols.

In the case of Hearts of Iron IV, I really don't care all that much. Being forced to play the localized German version of Wolfenstein: The New Order where you fight against "the regime" was some major bullshit though. God forbid I shoot hundreds of simulated Nazis in the face, that would be bad somehow.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


beer_war posted:

A court today might very well decide differently, but the legal battle might take years, the outcome is uncertain, and sales of the game would be suspended until there is a final decision. Understandably, developers and publishers prefer to just remove the offending symbols.

At the risk of a derail about German laws, this country's courts are notoriously conservative and backward about all things digital. Merkel famously claimed a couple years ago that the Internet was still "uncharted territory". I highly doubt that a court today would decide any differently, but you are completely right that the legal battle would take years.

But anyone who is that butthurt about not having their glorious Hitler portrait present in their game without two seconds of modding really needs to reconsider their priorities in life.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

Spinning Sufis on their heads
Are hearing tones of wisdom
Devilish women warning
Men of their actions,
Now bring them
To you and me


Its gotta be a little weird to blow up a digital version of your home town and think "Well, its for a good cause anyway".

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Khisanth Magus posted:

My main concern right now from the last few wednesday things is that huge swarms of infantry might overshadow all other options. I'm really hoping it was just that particular person's play style and using lots of armor is just as possible.

He uses tanks as well, but I think most people are referring to his minor game where he simply don't have the industry to even afford tanks. But if you mean to have a majority of tanks, then you can do it but get killed as your industry will not be capable of supplying that idiocy.

Your infantry will always be a "swarm" in comparison to your armor because anything else is stupid. If you gonna pull the "muuuh realism" card then the Wehrmacht only had like... 5 Panzer Divisions at invasion of Poland with Panzerkampfwagen I if I remember correctly. At invasion of USSR it was something like 3 000 tanks active on the field in comparison to the 3.8 million personnel and the 7k artillery pieces. I am however not a grognard at these things and find that kind of detail irrelevant in a computer game, because if we did do it like that people would go even more "EHRMAGED WHERE ARE THE TANKS?"

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:00

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


Groogy posted:

He uses tanks as well, but I think most people are referring to his minor game where he simply don't have the industry to even afford tanks. But if you mean to have a majority of tanks, then you can do it but get killed as your industry will not be capable of supplying that idiocy.

Your infantry will always be a "swarm" in comparison to your armor because anything else is stupid. If you gonna pull the "muuuh realism" card then the Wehrmacht only had like... 5 Panzer Divisions at invasion of Poland with Panzerkampfwagen I if I remember correctly. At invasion of USSR it was something like 3 000 tanks active on the field in comparison to the 3.8 million personnel and the 7k artillery pieces. I am however not a grognard at these things and find that kind of detail irrelevant in a computer game, because if we did do it like that people would go even more "EHRMAGED WHERE ARE THE TANKS?"

It's more because the vast majority of people seem to incorrectly think that a "tank division" means literally everyone is in a tank, when in reality it means like eight thousand infantry/support/artillery/staff and a couple hundred tanks tops.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Also you could potentially you know... mix brigades in a division? The Icon you see on the map is one you choose when you create the division design. You can have a Unicorn there and it could be your division made up by 3 tank brigades, 2 mechanized and an artillery brigade... Or whatever you feel like. A bunch of helmets on the map means whatever you want it to mean. Tis ain't NATO counters.


e: Heck I had a bug where I caused the AI to design divisions that looked like infantry divisions but with battleships in them because they are so freakishly powerful (and their land IC cost is basically zero since they have a different cost so the AI went well that is a no brainer obviously I am gonna build that)

GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011



Groogy posted:

Also you could potentially you know... mix brigades in a division? The Icon you see on the map is one you choose when you create the division design. You can have a Unicorn there and it could be your division made up by 3 tank brigades, 2 mechanized and an artillery brigade... Or whatever you feel like. A bunch of helmets on the map means whatever you want it to mean. Tis ain't NATO counters.

A bunch of helmets on the map means you are a filthy causal who doesn't use Nato counters, that what that means and always will mean.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Groogy posted:

He uses tanks as well, but I think most people are referring to his minor game where he simply don't have the industry to even afford tanks.

The really damning one is his Germany game. You don't really expect much tank usage from someone playing Hungary or Japan, but you do expect it of Germany. Instead we just got Daniel gleefully mashing on the "deploy 40 more untrained infantry divisions" button.

quote:

But if you mean to have a majority of tanks

No, that'd be idiotic and I'm not sure how you even got that from what you're reading here.

The issues I have with the tanks we've seen so far are:

1. Tanks are always far down the list of research priorities. Industry, infantry equipment and doctrine have always been prioritised over it.

2. Infantry equipment takes priority over everything else. Tanks usually get one poxy factory just to keep the line going.

3. Even when researched and built, tank units just get lumped into the infantry mob under the same field marshal, and effectively used as though they were infantry. No use of panzer leader generals to make the most of them, no specific orders to create or exploit breakthroughs.

Tank divisions were the "superstar" land units in WW2. If they're not worth the time to research, the industry to build, or the attention to give specific orders to, I think the game is worse than it could be. Tank units are expensive in terms of research, industry, and resources. If they're not also extremely powerful, nobody will bother to build any.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


So is there value in multiplayer for giving all of your divisions really inappropriate icons just to gently caress with your opponents across the border?

I also think we're reading a whole lot into what someone does during a one-hour demo stream with countries that change regularly. Has anyone thought that this is simply just Daniel's style? He's pretty much the only person we've ever seen playing HOI4 live.

I mean, even in previous HOI games, you tend to develop a style that you fall back on. Even when playing countries that could afford nice tanks and mechanized stuff in HOI2/DH/HOI3, I still almost always fell back on pumping out infantry anyway. It's been a viable strategy for pretty much anyone since long before HOI4.

Drone fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:16

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

But he was using tanks? I saw them, specifically also when he was defending against the naval Invasions and fighting in Italy. Just because he isn't training more doesn't mean he doesn't already have them employed. You could also see several times in his production screen that he was producing Tank equipment to supply the tanks in the field. If I remember correctly he had like two lines of production for Panzer II or Panzer III, don't remember exactly.

Producing more infantry is his only choice if he wants to be able to fight on equal terms with the USA, they have unlimited IC and unlimited manpower in comparison to Germany. They need to rack up the bodies to build literally walls against them.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:16

Arrhythmia
Jul 22, 2011



Groogy posted:

e: Heck I had a bug where I caused the AI to design divisions that looked like infantry divisions but with battleships in them because they are so freakishly powerful (and their land IC cost is basically zero since they have a different cost so the AI went well that is a no brainer obviously I am gonna build that)

loving lol at the idea of a battleship ploughing its way across the polish country side that doesn't need to be paid because boats don't work on land

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Land Boats, Land Boats is the future!

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Drone posted:

I also think we're reading a whole lot into what someone does during a one-hour demo stream with countries that change regularly. Has anyone thought that this is simply just Daniel's style? He's pretty much the only person we've ever seen playing HOI4 live.

My favorite game in HOI4 so far has been playing as Mongolia and build half a million cavalry men and just run over Asia and then fight over Beijing with the Japanese. But their metal birds were really horrible to my horsemen....

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Groogy posted:

But he was using tanks? I saw them, specifically also when he was defending against the naval Invasions and fighting in Italy. Just because he isn't training more doesn't mean he doesn't already have them employed. You could also see several times in his production screen that he was producing Tank equipment to supply the tanks in the field. If I remember correctly he had like two lines of production for Panzer II or Panzer III, don't remember exactly.

His use of tanks was vanishingly small compared to his use of infantry. I don't want to go back and find quotes or count the divisions, but even Daniel himself was emphasising that he was going with an "infantry-heavy" approach that game.

quote:

Producing more infantry is his only choice if he wants to be able to fight on equal terms with the USA, they have unlimited IC and unlimited manpower in comparison to Germany. They need to rack up the bodies to build literally walls against them.

You're arguing that building tanks is a bad use of industry for Germany in World War 2. I think it's more likely that the tanks in HoI4 are underpowered compared to the trouble (research, industry, resources) that they take to build, so Daniel doesn't bother with them.

Gort fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:27

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Gort posted:

You're arguing that building tanks is a bad use of industry for Germany in World War 2.

I am not. I am arguing that he is not producing more tanks because it would require him to switch more production lines from other things to Tanks and lose the production efficiency he currently has. The production lines he already have is enough to keep his current tank divisions supplied and they are enough to do the moves he wants to do. Tanks are kinda wasted on guarding a coast line from Spain to Scandinavia or invading the USSR (since their reliability would just make too many of them breakdown and his industry would be bottlenecked on that). But they are employed where they actually excel as a task force, which means he doesn't need to build more. For instance in his invasion of Turkey/Egypt where Johan tries to hold a stance against him he actually gets in a lot of problems because his troops are only infantry that took part in the subjugation of Russia while Johan uses Mechanized and Tanks.


I work with the guy and played with him several times and discuss with him the current meta on the game so I know how to make the AI do the best it can. I think I know more than you how he thinks or plans when he plays. Just FYI.


Edit: Asked him now, He says he thinks he had 6 full production lines for Tiger Tanks and besides the example of Italy and Egypt he also had a major force of Tanks to invade British Raj.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:39

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Groogy posted:

I am not. I am arguing that he is not producing moe tanks because it would require him to switch more production lines from other things to Tanks and lose the production efficiency he currently has.

Where "other things" means infantry equipment. Isn't it a little worrying that the priorities are always the same, with infantry equipment always taking the lion's share of production?

quote:

The production lines he already have is enough to keep his current tank divisions supplied and they are enough to do the moves he wants to do. Tanks are kinda wasted on guarding a coast line from Spain to Scandinavia or invading the USSR (since their reliability would just make too many of them breakdown and his industry would be bottlenecked on that). But they are employed where they actually excel as a task force, which means he doesn't need to build more.

He massively increased the number of infantry divisions in his army. Did he even build one extra tank division?

quote:

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

This is kinda making my mind boggle. Tanks are perfect for invading the USSR. That's what they're for.

The way you're talking it sounds like you think tanks are some sort of super-expensive prestige-weapon, like super-heavy battleships, where you only build them if you have mountains of industry to spare, while if you actually want to fight and win wars you just shovel infantry at your opposition.

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



Groogy posted:

e: Heck I had a bug where I caused the AI to design divisions that looked like infantry divisions but with battleships in them because they are so freakishly powerful (and their land IC cost is basically zero since they have a different cost so the AI went well that is a no brainer obviously I am gonna build that)

This bug is might be the most 'thats Paradox' bug ever, building battleships and putting treads on them so they could move on land, cause they did not have to pay a cent that way

GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011



Question is how well does the AI use tanks?

Their use obviously is to create a breakthrough which will subsequently exploited by more tanks (and stabilized by infantry) to encircle large parts of the enemy force. If the AI is unable to perform those actions efficiently, well, that would be bad.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Gort posted:

Where "other things" means infantry equipment. Isn't it a little worrying that the priorities are always the same, with infantry equipment always taking the lion's share of production?
It does not, are you making things up, he switched to a heavy artillery production towards the end game as he realized what he was doing wrong. He was also producing tons of planes, support equipment and etc. But yes Infantry equipment will always take up a big part of your production lines since it will always be the biggest part of your army.

Gort posted:

He massively increased the number of infantry divisions in his army. Did he even build one extra tank division?
Yes he did. He built several in fact.

Gort posted:

This is kinda making my mind boggle. Tanks are perfect for invading the USSR. That's what they're for.

Yes because that is how it went... Germany lost something around 70% of its tanks. Of course it is Perfect for invading USSR and like fighting in the enormous swampland in Northern eastern Poland. They had no problems whatsoever with their tanks.... *roll eyes*

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 08:52

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Groogy posted:

It does not, are you making things up, he switched to a heavy artillery production towards the end game as he realized what he was doing wrong. He was also producing tons of planes and etc. But yes Infantry equipment will always take up a big part of your production lines since it will always be the biggest part of your army.

Just looking at one of the videos again, I see he has 82 factories making infantry equipment (with it set up so any future factories he acquires immediately get set to building more infantry equipment) and 5 factories building tanks.

quote:

Yes because that is how it went... Germany lost something around 70% of its tanks. Of course it is Perfect for invading USSR and like fighting in the enormous swampland in Northern eastern Poland. They had no problems whatsoever with their tanks.... *roll eyes*

So, because Germany used tanks in its failed invasion of the USSR, tanks are a failed weapon that shouldn't be used? Nobody tell the Soviets.

Gort fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 09:32

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Gort posted:

Just looking at one of the videos again, I see has has 82 factories making infantry equipment (with it set up so any future factories he acquires immediately get set to building more infantry equipment) and 5 factories building tanks.


That's the game where he just taken over and is trying to fix the nation that Jakob left behind. He had massive deficits in his supplies.

Gort posted:

So, because Germany used tanks in its failed invasion of the USSR, tanks are a failed weapon that shouldn't be used? Nobody tell the Soviets.

I also like how you are putting words in both my mouth and Daniels mouth.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 09:02

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Groogy posted:

That's the game where he just taken over and is trying to fix the nation that Jakob left behind. He had massive deficits in his supplies.

OK, let's skip forward two videos.

Johan builds a far less lopsided force, but Johan loses. Daniel's play just puts me in mind of an experienced player of an unbalanced game who has learned what the "good" unit is and is using that to win.

Jeoh
Jul 20, 2010



I've only tuned into the World War Wednesdays since he played Hungary, but are there any streams where he played a bit further? Japan, I guess? I'd like to see the late game, where I imagine motorized and mechanized infantry play a much larger role.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Jeoh posted:

I've only tuned into the World War Wednesdays since he played Hungary, but are there any streams where he played a bit further? Japan, I guess? I'd like to see the late game, where I imagine motorized and mechanized infantry play a much larger role.

The Germany vs Britain streams run until 1944.

BBJoey
Oct 31, 2012



Groogy posted:

Yes because that is how it went... Germany lost something around 70% of its tanks. Of course it is Perfect for invading USSR and like fighting in the enormous swampland in Northern eastern Poland. They had no problems whatsoever with their tanks.... *roll eyes*

is this real

Groogy posted:

I also like how you are putting words in both my mouth and Daniels mouth.

that is literally what you posted.

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Nooo thread turn the other way!!

But I don't think Groogy's wrong; with Daniel picking up that game and all its... idiosyncratic production choices already in place, I think he just decides to roll with it.

And IIRC from Forczyk's Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front the drat things weren't exactly 'perfect' for invading the USSR anyway, from a grand-strategic pov that is

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

BBJoey posted:

that is literally what you posted.

No he was doing a very nice strawman, I took up a real event where Tanks performed sub-par(at least the German ones) contrary to what he claimed. He proceeded to use my statement as me claiming that Tanks are useless in all regards. Which I did not say.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


Oh and I'm particularly excited for the new naval system and am seriously hoping it does away with cruiser zerg fleets from HOI2. I really want to see some actual combined force fleets.

BBJoey
Oct 31, 2012



Groogy posted:

No he was doing a very nice strawman, I took up a real event where Tanks performed sub-par(at least the German ones) contrary to what he claimed. He proceeded to use my statement as me claiming that Tanks are useless in all regards. Which I did not say.

alright how about this: "the real barbarossa used tanks and failed, therefore using tanks in a simulated barbarossa is a bad idea", is that the point you were making?

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Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Not originally no, but he kept moving the goal post of the discussion which originally was "Daniel didn't use/build Tanks" which is false.
But I can say in how the game works and with the terrain on certain places in Soviet/Eastern Poland. Tanks is going to be a seriously expensive investment over there because you'll have to replace a ton of them.

If you can afford it, then great you can blitz to Moscow. Otherwise if you are gonna have a long slug war against the USSR, depending on your tanks is gonna be a bad idea.

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