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GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011



If you don't understand why tanks were necessary to beat the SU, I'm not sure what to tell you. Sure, they did not perform as well as Germany hoped, especially on the Northern front, but that doesn't mean that infantry would have been more successful. There is no way Germany can win a battle of attrition, which means the only possible road to victory is concentration of force and violence of action to win before the enemy is capable of organizing it's defenses and tanks are exactly the ground unit that is ideal for this kind of action.

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Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

GaussianCopula posted:

If you don't understand why tanks were necessary to beat the SU, I'm not sure what to tell you. Sure, they did not perform as well as Germany hoped, especially on the Northern front, but that doesn't mean that infantry would have been more successful. There is no way Germany can win a battle of attrition, which means the only possible road to victory is concentration of force and violence of action to win before the enemy is capable of organizing it's defenses and tanks are exactly the ground unit that is ideal for this kind of action.

I never claimed that Germany could win a battle of attrition or that they could beat USSR at all, I perfectly understand why Tanks were used. I have just reiterated the end result of Operation Barbarossa and also countered the idea of Tanks being something of a main fighting force of any composition in the Wehrmacht. Just like any equipment in a fighting force they are a tool with specific pro's and con's and should be used as such. But that wasn't even the point of the discussion, that was just the goalpost being moved, the discussion started from the claim that Daniel never builds Tanks.

podcat
Jun 21, 2012



Gort posted:

The Germany vs Britain streams run until 1944.

About armor balance stuff. that germany vs britain game is old now. I think basically every unit stat has changed since then. At that point pure infantry was OP for sure production wise and bang for bucks and by having 3x bigger forces trumps most the ai could do tech wise (at that version manpower was also basically infinite too).

actually if I recall the secret meta Daniel didnt know about at that point was pure maxed battalions of heavy self propelled arty ;P Sadly I fixed that before I got the chance to use it in MP

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

podcat posted:

actually if I recall the secret meta Daniel didnt know about at that point was pure maxed battalions of heavy self propelled arty ;P Sadly I fixed that before I got the chance to use it in MP

Right didn't we discover that one because the AI kept building it? But that was after that game I think, think it was like during the Japan game actually we found that.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 10:40

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


podcat posted:

About armor balance stuff. that germany vs britain game is old now. I think basically every unit stat has changed since then. At that point pure infantry was OP for sure production wise and bang for bucks and by having 3x bigger forces trumps most the ai could do tech wise (at that version manpower was also basically infinite too).

That gives me some hope. I did notice you guys had halved the manpower the various conscription laws gave. It'd be cool to see a USA, USSR or Germany game where lots of tanks got used (maybe USSR is the best since they won't have to worry about oil or navies as much as the USA or Germany) to put my mind fully at rest

Takanago
Jun 2, 2007

You'll see...


What this shows is that we need to mod in a new unit type to round out our army options. We need some kind of "missing link" between infantry and artillery. A kind of "metal gear", if you will...

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

I'm all for a Secret Weapon research mod that adds Mechas to HOI4. I will play with that. If Kaiserreich guys are here please add Wilhelmtron as a mega project you can do.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 10:45

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Gort posted:

It'd be cool to see a USA, USSR or Germany game where lots of tanks got used (maybe USSR is the best since they won't have to worry about oil or navies as much as the USA or Germany) to put my mind fully at rest

What kind of amounts are you thinking of?

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Koesj posted:

What kind of amounts are you thinking of?

23,000 in 1941?

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Gort posted:

23,000 in 1941?

haha sike

So that's around 80 per week from a 1/1/1936 start day right, assuming there weren't any tanks there before? At this point in the latest WWW You can see them producing 2.13 light tanks per week from a 50% efficiency factory, so you'd need 37 and a half mil factories churning them out for 284 weeks. Yikes!

However, let's say that a substantial part of those 23k 'tanks' might be better represented as armored cars in-game (hello T-37 and -38), that about half of the remaining tanks were already produced by the game's start date, and that production efficiency rises to an average of 60% over the following 5.5 years (I'm taking these numbers out of thin air mind you). It's all a bit theoretical but maybe 'only' 8000 tanks need to be produced in 11 military factories @ 2.55 per week. I don't know. That's still a shitload of factories though and mediums are probably significantly more expensive.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

I mean those numbers are insanely high for Germany to produce or any country (besides USSR maybe since their numbers are batshit crazy).

I think there were like in total around 5 000 tanks built of Panzerkampfvagen III at the end of 1943 and only like a thousand or two Tiger tanks built at 1944.
You can probably build that amount in the game though if you play everything right. But 23 000 concurrently active tanks is not realistic in any sense. But if you mean that has "ever been built" by the nation then yes that number would probably even be a bit low in HOI4.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 11:27

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Groogy posted:

Right didn't we discover that one because the AI kept building it? But that was after that game I think, think it was like during the Japan game actually we found that.

If the AI doesn't throw everything into building hundreds and hundreds of transports I shall be very disappointed.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Alchenar posted:

If the AI doesn't throw everything into building hundreds and hundreds of transports I shall be very disappointed.

I actually tried making the Japanese, USA AI and others predict how many transports it will lose in a period of time compared to how many it will need and dedicate IC enough to try and combat the losses and still keep the numbers growing. Of course it is a losing battle as the British IRL realized but still did help make the AI better in building convoys and supplying its troops.

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Groogy posted:

I mean those numbers are insanely high for Germany to produce or any country (besides USSR maybe since their numbers are batshit crazy).

I think there were like in total around 5 000 tanks built of Panzerkampfvagen III at the end of 1943 and only like a thousand or two Tiger tanks built at 1944.
You can probably build that amount in the game though if you play everything right. But 23 000 concurrently active tanks is not realistic in any sense. But if you mean that has "ever been built" by the nation then yes that number would probably be a bit low even.

That is the number given for the USSR up until the start of Barbarossa though. But like I said, a couple of models might be better suited by the armored car-treatment in-game. An MG and some paper thin steel don't magically transform into an all-conquering tank if you put tracks beneath them.

Oh and almost 50k Shermans were produced as well...

I did just now see a precipitous rise in weekly production to 3.13 light tanks in 1936 in the Twitch stream though, so you'd only need 61 mil factories to produce them within 5 years if a Sherman cost the equivalent amount in time and effort

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


I picked 23,000 in 1941 because it was slightly higher than historical numbers for the USSR. It'd be cool to see a 1941 USSR with 23,000 tanks, is what my point was.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Oh I misunderstood, I thought the target was still Germany.
Also I don't count USA in any of this because they are simply cheating

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Gort posted:

I picked 23,000 in 1941 because it was slightly higher than historical numbers for the USSR. It'd be cool to see a 1941 USSR with 23,000 tanks, is what my point was.

Oh crap I forgot. Now I've lost my ability to feel human

e: wait now your post says something else

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx


Just comparing tanks is not enough, you need to compare total AFV production between the countries. America and Germany loved their tank destroyers.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Koesj posted:

That is the number given for the USSR up until the start of Barbarossa though. But like I said, a couple of models might be better suited by the armored car-treatment in-game. An MG and some paper thin steel don't magically transform into an all-conquering tank if you put tracks beneath them.

There were only about a thousand each produced of T-38s and T-37s, and this game doesn't model armoured cars. (except maybe in the recon support units)

Riso posted:

Just comparing tanks is not enough, you need to compare total AFV production between the countries. America and Germany loved their tank destroyers.

I'm not sure we're comparing countries, just seeing if historical production is feasible ingame.

Star
Jul 15, 2005

Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment.


Once again the pre-release discussion of a Paradox game doesn't disappoint. But will it be able to overtake the gooniness of the collectivism-individualism divide?

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Actually with this talk, I am gonna do my Mongolia run once again see if I can do it still with all the new changes. This time I will probably run out of manpower since I can't access as much of the Chinese manpower pool :/

The Cavalry of the Steppe shall ravage China once again! Long live the Khan!

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


Hey now I don't think getting into the weeds of production lines or numbers is quite as obscure and useless as a discussion on semantics. The former is actually a meaningful gameplay element, and a big new addition to the series at that.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

Spinning Sufis on their heads
Are hearing tones of wisdom
Devilish women warning
Men of their actions,
Now bring them
To you and me


Star posted:

Once again the pre-release discussion of a Paradox game doesn't disappoint. But will it be able to overtake the gooniness of the collectivism-individualism divide?

Well, I've heard of a Third Way, but its not a pretty one...

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013

We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism.

Diversity
is Disunity
is Weakness.


I got this avatar for being a giant shithead on ANZAC day.

Koesj posted:

Hey now I don't think getting into the weeds of production lines or numbers is quite as obscure and useless as a discussion on semantics. The former is actually a meaningful gameplay element, and a big new addition to the series at that.

To defend collectivism chat for a second, the semantics were pretty important for getting an understanding of what order Paradox devs would be put up against the wall. Wiz is obviously first.

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


legit what was this page

"mmm I like tanks. why aren't more tanks being used? use way more tanks."
"infantry is the backbone and tanks aren't effective in poor terrain like swamps in the soviet union"
"mmmmm i think tanks are good forever, actually."

smh

You can use tanks. Tanks go fast, have a fair amount of punch but don't fill an area as much as comparable infantry and artillery. But their goal is to go real fast and make pockets. Which they'll do. Not using tanks means you'll just have the enemy retreat a lot, which isn't nearly as effective as making a breaththrough, pocketing a portion of the army and outright destroying it. You can do without tanks! That's fine guys! It's okay to not use tanks. You can use them, too tho.

That's okay.

You can use a tank.

Fellblade
Apr 28, 2009


Having Devs posting on the forums is great but it sure sucks when some random amateur historian thinks they know game development better than somebody who has been making games every day for years.

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Meh I'm used to it, everybody on the Internet is a Game Designer. Was just annoying with the:

"Hey Daniel did you use tanks?"
"Yeah, specifically when I invaded British Raj I used a lot of them"
"Ok cool"


"NO HE DIDN'T USE TANKS" - Internet guy who watched the streams

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Infantry was OP at that point in development and they've changed the stats since then.

Groogy posted:

Meh I'm used to it, everybody on the Internet is a Game Designer. Was just annoying with the:

"Hey Daniel did you use tanks?"
"Yeah, specifically when I invaded British Raj I used a lot of them"
"Ok cool"


"NO HE DIDN'T USE TANKS" - Internet guy who watched the streams

Nice to see you not putting words in anyone's mouth.

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


actually he's taking them out of your mouth

in and out is a hard concept tho they make good burgers

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Paraphrasing is not a strawman, but yes that's borderline.
But meh I don't care at this point. I should have given up several posts ago.

edit: Also I don't see why changing my avatar etc to something that is actually true in the game is gonna be funny then linking to where I explain how the game mechanics work and have nothing to do with actual the real operation of Barbarossa.... or somethin?

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 13:07

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


For real, though, tanks are good forever

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013

We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism.

Diversity
is Disunity
is Weakness.


I got this avatar for being a giant shithead on ANZAC day.


Nice redtext av, definitely a good use of someone's money.

Someone could have got some cosmetic dlc they would almost certainly have hidden behind counters with that.

WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 13:11

Wooper
Oct 16, 2006

Champion draGoon horse slayer. Making Lancers weep for their horsies since 2011. Viva Dickbutt.


I hope the game is as excellent as this thread.

Gamerofthegame
Oct 27, 2010

Could at least flip one or two, maybe.


i hope i can give hitler a red text

Groogy
Jun 12, 2014

Tanks are kinda wasted on invading the USSR

Was just about to switch it back, but then I realized how failed the message is so I am just gonna keep it as an eternal statement of someones wasted money.


You do know, the game is not the same thing as real life right? Just making sure you know, you aren't actually literally Hitler when playing as Nazi Germany in HOI4. I can't stress how important that specific point is.

Groogy fucked around with this message at May 20, 2016 around 13:16

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011


Military history buffs are loving insane. I have never seen a single thread mention any aspect of any part of the history of any conflict ever without a bunch of you idiots going nuts on each other. Go join a book club or something.

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx


Gamerofthegame posted:

i hope i can give hitler a red text

Been there, done that, not as exciting as it sounds.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013

We will no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of globalism.

Diversity
is Disunity
is Weakness.


I got this avatar for being a giant shithead on ANZAC day.

FactsAreUseless posted:

Military history buffs are loving insane. I have never seen a single thread mention any aspect of any part of the history of any conflict ever without a bunch of you idiots going nuts on each other. Go join a book club or something.

What about this one discussing the history of all hitherto forums arguments discussing military history?

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


FactsAreUseless posted:

Military history buffs are loving insane. I have never seen a single thread mention any aspect of any part of the history of any conflict ever without a bunch of you idiots going nuts on each other. Go join a book club or something.

Uhh it's a legit historical field and our A/T thread is p. cool, but I'm a lame-o trained historian so what do I know. Also this game kinda lends itself for discussions about tank production etc. Goons will be goons tho!

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Drone
Aug 22, 2003

How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock?


The day I misunderstood a point a dev was making about how my favorite warmachines arent the be-all, end-all of modern cinflict, Paradox took away my ability to feel human.

Also yeah the dude who bought that red text is a pretty big idiot and probably could have given that :tenbux: to some charity for abused tanks.

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