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sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!

Doctor Rope


Case in point, that episode is about Crusher trying to figure out a mystery for no reason other than that she is curious.

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Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Sub Rosa isn't actually that bad, and Picard was given worse and creepier romances.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

Pick posted:

Sub Rosa isn't actually that bad, and Picard was given worse and creepier romances.

Grandma's sex candle is just really easy to make fun of

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


Pick posted:

Sub Rosa isn't actually that bad, and Picard was given worse and creepier romances.

He makes out with a 17 year old in one episode

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

John Wick of Dogs posted:

He makes out with a 17 year old in one episode

He hooks up with the oldest captain Picard day kid a few seasons later when she's 18, good to see the callback but drat

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine.




John Wick of Dogs posted:

He makes out with a 17 year old in one episode

star trek tackles the tough question of "just what is the age of consent in the Federation anyway?", coming next year to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


Well in my example Picard is young again in the academy and the 17 year old in question is playing s someone the same age as him, but Picard is still being played by Patrick Stewart

Prism Mirror Lens
Oct 9, 2012

~*"The most intelligent and meaning-rich film he could think of was Shaun of the Dead, I don't think either brain is going to absorb anything you post."*~






I never gave a drat what they did or didn’t do with Jadzia’s character because I found it inherently fascinating that she was a woman who used to be a man. (guess the reason and win absolutely no prize)

Seriously though, I’m sure the reason it feels like they didn’t do much with her was not because she was a strong independent woman and they didn’t know how to write that. It was because someone who’s lived like eight lifetimes can’t believably have major flaws or big issues to deal with. It’s hard to write someone who has vastly more life experience and wisdom than any human will ever have. They try to introduce things like she wasn’t really a great initiate, but it ends up all revolving around her symbiont. I think in a regular episodic Trek she wouldn’t have stood out as particularly useless, but with flawed regularly appearing characters like Odo, Kira, Dukat etc flying around she might feel flat in comparison.

She does have some real stinker episodes like the one where she decides to bugger off for 60 years to energy-bang some dude she just met, I will admit that

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






John Wick of Dogs posted:

Well in my example Picard is young again in the academy and the 17 year old in question is playing s someone the same age as him, but Picard is still being played by Patrick Stewart

Leaping into yourself as a teenager is fair game, everyone knows the Sam Beckett Rule

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



John Wick of Dogs posted:

Well in my example Picard is young again in the academy and the 17 year old in question is playing s someone the same age as him, but Picard is still being played by Patrick Stewart

those nausicans were 5yo, picard punched a baby

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



The Ocampans were always the creepiest thing since they live to be what, 10 years old? It reeks of those animes where a woman is 400 years old but in the body of an underage girl

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

Come play my CYOA!

Save your reality from the Constructors... then save all the rest of them.


Kes shoulda been tiny

Like Tinkerbell size

And equipped with an antigrav belt

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



at least one star trek should incorporate the consequences of relativity

i cant believe i want to watch interstellar again, gently caress you start trek

AntherUslessPoster
Feb 12, 2019

Universe existed for 13.8 billion years before humans and will exist for trillions years more after the last human is forgotten.
So what was your problem again?


sweet geek swag posted:

Case in point, that episode is about Crusher trying to figure out a mystery for no reason other than that she is curious.

Still its more santa barbara than trek. Jadzia did have a couple of pretty awesome episodes but yes,

Prism Mirror Lens posted:

she was a woman who used to be a man

this fact in itself was already bleeding edge in TV back then so they just didn't do much. Also Berman's fault, I presume.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.


Yam Slacker

GolfHole posted:

at least one star trek should incorporate the consequences of relativity

i cant believe i want to watch interstellar again, gently caress you start trek

There was that one Voyager episode that's a direct ripoff of homage to the hard sci-fi novel Dragon's Egg. It's the one where time passes way faster down on the planet.

I think the Trek episode didn't just use straight relativity to make the time dilation happen, they included some tachyons or baloneytrons or something (haven't seen the episode in a zillion years), but the practical upshot is the same.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine.




That was one of the best episodes of Voyager and it's lightyears ahead of anything Kurtzman and Co. are capable of.

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



Powered Descent posted:

There was that one Voyager episode that's a direct ripoff of homage to the hard sci-fi novel Dragon's Egg. It's the one where time passes way faster down on the planet.

I think the Trek episode didn't just use straight relativity to make the time dilation happen, they included some tachyons or baloneytrons or something (haven't seen the episode in a zillion years), but the practical upshot is the same.

oh ya

but i mean more like, idk, captain frasier returning from HIS 5-year journey, which was actually 117 earth years

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



shovelbum posted:

Grandma's sex candle is just really easy to make fun of

Ronin the Sex Ghost

Brawnfire
Jul 13, 2004

Come play my CYOA!

Save your reality from the Constructors... then save all the rest of them.


GolfHole posted:

oh ya

but i mean more like, idk, captain frasier returning from HIS 5-year journey, which was actually 117 earth years

Being on a pre-warp ship of exploration and being discovered by a warp ship a few years into your journey must be weird.

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

Ask me about my dream Frasier episode where Frasier and Bulldog oil their heads and then rub them together. It's definitely not a fetish of mine, I swear!

Picard is up to Vulcan-level age if you consider the 40 or 50 years he lived on Kataan, which totally counts

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Drone posted:

That was one of the best episodes of Voyager and it's lightyears ahead of anything Kurtzman and Co. are capable of.
Yes ‘Blink of an Eye’ is a legit good Trek episode

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!

Doctor Rope

Prism Mirror Lens posted:

I never gave a drat what they did or didn’t do with Jadzia’s character because I found it inherently fascinating that she was a woman who used to be a man. (guess the reason and win absolutely no prize)

Seriously though, I’m sure the reason it feels like they didn’t do much with her was not because she was a strong independent woman and they didn’t know how to write that. It was because someone who’s lived like eight lifetimes can’t believably have major flaws or big issues to deal with. It’s hard to write someone who has vastly more life experience and wisdom than any human will ever have. They try to introduce things like she wasn’t really a great initiate, but it ends up all revolving around her symbiont. I think in a regular episodic Trek she wouldn’t have stood out as particularly useless, but with flawed regularly appearing characters like Odo, Kira, Dukat etc flying around she might feel flat in comparison.

She does have some real stinker episodes like the one where she decides to bugger off for 60 years to energy-bang some dude she just met, I will admit that

But they gave her a flaw, she was incredibly curious. This can be a very good thing, but it can also lead to disaster if you accidentally interfere with something you shouldn't have. In fact, it was one of Data's flaws in TNG. They could have easily had her accidentally interfere with some weird cultural thing with some planet and then have to use her cleverness to get out. The issue seems to have been they just weren't thinking in those terms. I don't think that the writers were intentionally avoiding exploring Jadzia. They were just far more interested in exploring the varied Dax personalities than they were interested in exploring Jadzia. Then you get four/five seasons in and suddenly you realize you just created female Curzon. It's too late to fix it at that point.

I'm not gonna give DS9's writers too much trouble for this because they also created Kira who is probably the best female character in Trek, even if they kept giving her the dumbest possible romances.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Look, why wouldn't Kira want to hook up with terrorists, Cardassian Hitler, and sentient jizz?

Chomp8645
Sep 1, 2006

Vvardenfell awaits.



Yeah like, it's true they did not do as good of a job with Jadzia as they could have. But to be honest, I think extrapolating that into "DS9 writers can't do strong women!!!" is some straight horse poo poo. Not every single character is gonna turn out the way you wanted, and for a show jam packed with great characters it feels like bad faith criticism to try and portray the writers as misogynists or privileged or whatever because they kinda fumbled the ball on this one character who happened to be a woman.


The show is jam packed with strong female characters too, it's not just Kira. Moogie shadow puppeted the whole god drat Ferengi Alliance when the Nagus went senile and basically started a revolution for women's rights. A Cardassian woman started the dissident movement to end military rule on Cardassia. A Klingon woman asserted her control of a noble house when the male leader died without an heir. They are all over. Even Tain's old maid who sheltered Kira/Garak/Damar was decently written and that was the kind of minor role most writers wouldn't bother to give three dimensions to. gently caress.

I think we can give them a pass for not fully capitalizing one character, the premise of whom was so unusual than any writer would probably struggle to write an extended arc for.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


sweet geek swag posted:

But they gave her a flaw, she was incredibly curious. This can be a very good thing, but it can also lead to disaster if you accidentally interfere with something you shouldn't have. In fact, it was one of Data's flaws in TNG. They could have easily had her accidentally interfere with some weird cultural thing with some planet and then have to use her cleverness to get out. The issue seems to have been they just weren't thinking in those terms. I don't think that the writers were intentionally avoiding exploring Jadzia. They were just far more interested in exploring the varied Dax personalities than they were interested in exploring Jadzia. Then you get four/five seasons in and suddenly you realize you just created female Curzon. It's too late to fix it at that point.

I'm not gonna give DS9's writers too much trouble for this because they also created Kira who is probably the best female character in Trek, even if they kept giving her the dumbest possible romances.

Yeah the whole episode where they meet their Descendants and end up killing them by escaping because of Odo's interference is completely her fault. Sisko is like "let's drop a probe and come back later" and she's like "C'mon pleeeease I gotta see this planet"

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






FlamingLiberal posted:

The Ocampans were always the creepiest thing since they live to be what, 10 years old? It reeks of those animes where a woman is 400 years old but in the body of an underage girl

It's really the opposite, which oddly doesn't make it less creepy at all. Like regardless of how fast they physiologically mature, how is she remotely close to as emotionally or psychologically mature as she seems at two-ish years of lived experience...

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Chomp8645 posted:

Yeah like, it's true they did not do as good of a job with Jadzia as they could have. But to be honest, I think extrapolating that into "DS9 writers can't do strong women!!!" is some straight horse poo poo. Not every single character is gonna turn out the way you wanted, and for a show jam packed with great characters it feels like bad faith criticism to try and portray the writers as misogynists or privileged or whatever because they kinda fumbled the ball on this one character who happened to be a woman.


The show is jam packed with strong female characters too, it's not just Kira. Moogie shadow puppeted the whole god drat Ferengi Alliance when the Nagus went senile and basically started a revolution for women's rights. A Cardassian woman started the dissident movement to end military rule on Cardassia. A Klingon woman asserted her control of a noble house when the male leader died without an heir. They are all over. Even Tain's old maid who sheltered Kira/Garak/Damar was decently written and that was the kind of minor role most writers wouldn't bother to give three dimensions to. gently caress.

I think we can give them a pass for not fully capitalizing one character, the premise of whom was so unusual than any writer would probably struggle to write an extended arc for.

How can you forget Leeta the Dabo Girl? Shameful.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Or Kasidy Yates?

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!

Doctor Rope

Chomp8645 posted:

Yeah like, it's true they did not do as good of a job with Jadzia as they could have. But to be honest, I think extrapolating that into "DS9 writers can't do strong women!!!" is some straight horse poo poo. Not every single character is gonna turn out the way you wanted, and for a show jam packed with great characters it feels like bad faith criticism to try and portray the writers as misogynists or privileged or whatever because they kinda fumbled the ball on this one character who happened to be a woman.


The show is jam packed with strong female characters too, it's not just Kira. Moogie shadow puppeted the whole god drat Ferengi Alliance when the Nagus went senile and basically started a revolution for women's rights. A Cardassian woman started the dissident movement to end military rule on Cardassia. A Klingon woman asserted her control of a noble house when the male leader died without an heir. They are all over. Even Tain's old maid who sheltered Kira/Garak/Damar was decently written and that was the kind of minor role most writers wouldn't bother to give three dimensions to. gently caress.

I think we can give them a pass for not fully capitalizing one character, the premise of whom was so unusual than any writer would probably struggle to write an extended arc for.

I don't deny that the writers wrote other female characters well. Where did I say otherwise? You seem to be concentrating on the first half one sentence , and not the second half, which was actually the most important half of what I said, in that it was specifically her curiosity that they didn't exploit. Moogie is a character who is written around her plot arcs, Moogie stories are intrinsically about her navigating the role of women in Ferengi society. Grelka does the same with Klingon society. Both Kira and Natima's characters are written around their respective backstories which provide plenty of motivations to their characters beyond just being female. There is nothing wrong with this, all of these characters are great! But Jadzia doesn't have those sorts of plot hooks and Curzon does. So they kept developing the Curzon hooks and never gave Jadzia anything of her own, despite the fact that she had plenty of character quirks that could be used in this way.

And yes, I am arguing that if Jadzia was a male character she would have had her curiosity explored more, because that sort of character trait gets explored in virtually every male character in the series. Sisko got to build a solar sail ship, Odo had many episodes where he is learning to live with solids, Bashir got to live out how many of his fantasies in full episodes, and Nog's quirks lead to him joining Starfleet. I'm accusing the mostly male writers room of having a blind spot, not being some raging sexists. I think in general they did a good job, but I am entitled to express my disappointment with the way they handled a character that I think showed a lot of potential, and I am allowed to say that I think if the character had been a man they would have done a better job.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

jadzia was wasted, but it wasn't because she was a confident independent woman. after all, bashir got wasted in pretty much the exact same way. some characters got development, others didn't. bashir visiting the holodeck or the godawful genetic engineering subplot are what they did instead of developing him.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!

Doctor Rope

gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

jadzia was wasted, but it wasn't because she was a confident independent woman. after all, bashir got wasted in pretty much the exact same way. some characters got development, others didn't. bashir visiting the holodeck or the godawful genetic engineering subplot are what they did instead of developing him.

I agree on the genetic engineering thing, but both his James Bond and Vegas Casino fantasies absolutely are extensions of his inexperience and immature tendencies, both of which are key character traits that he was introduced with.

GolfHole
Feb 26, 2004



sweet geek swag posted:

I agree on the genetic engineering thing, but both his James Bond and Vegas Casino fantasies absolutely are extensions of his inexperience and immature tendencies, both of which are key character traits that he was introduced with.

same

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009



I never really saw ST in any coherent way as a kid, just odd repeat episodes form TNG, DS9 and VOY all out of order and months in between. So I figured I'd waste the last few weeks of lockdown figuring out if I actually like this stuff. 5 minutes into the first episode of TOS and I have a question: is this guy some sort of space midget? Why can't he reach his desk properly?

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012





communism bitch posted:

I never really saw ST in any coherent way as a kid, just odd repeat episodes form TNG, DS9 and VOY all out of order and months in between. So I figured I'd waste the last few weeks of lockdown figuring out if I actually like this stuff. 5 minutes into the first episode of TOS and I have a question: is this guy some sort of space midget? Why can't he reach his desk properly?



i enjoy in-universe explanations but for the TOS pilot it's really just: they had no idea what they were doing yet

communism bitch
Apr 24, 2009



I like how they all sound like new york cab drivers or something.

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010




Frog Act posted:

i enjoy in-universe explanations but for the TOS pilot it's really just: they had no idea what they were doing yet
I'm making my way through TNG for the first time since it aired originally and as I'm sure you're aware that notion carries on through a good deal of it.

Danaru
Jun 5, 2012


I started rewatching Voyager because I wanted something scifi on the other monitor when is The Orville getting a season 3

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012





My Lovely Horse posted:

I'm making my way through TNG for the first time since it aired originally and as I'm sure you're aware that notion carries on through a good deal of it.

yeah, but to be fair to TNG, they were really starting over with a significantly evolved vision. doesn't quite excuse a matter of honor though.

anyway i just finished my voyager rewatch. voyager is probably the trek i'm least familiar with, and i haven't watched it in a few years, so it was nice to revisit it all chronologically. as i've posted in this thread it had some really high highs that redeem the lower lows and I think it has an unfairly bad rap sometimes, though, to be fair, not usually in this thread. the final mission was good and i liked captain kim and that they pulled everyone out alive except for neelix's irritating self who they sent to live on an asteroid.

my only wish for the voyager finale is that they had had some time to explore the ramifications of their return with future technology and the reuniting of all the crew members with their family. particularly, the reintegration of the maquis, the new knowledge about the borg, popularizing the mobile emitter to create a new class of equally regarded synthetic life, i would just be so stoked for a season or a half season of voyager after they return to the alpha quadrant.

anyway, now i'm gonna do TNG, which I've seen countless times, but obviously never get tired of. it's been years since i actually watched Encounter at Farpoint though and this prime version seems to be in way better definition than other streaming iterations. the net Q traps them in at the very beginning looked crisper than i remember.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Frog Act posted:

anyway, now i'm gonna do TNG, which I've seen countless times, but obviously never get tired of. it's been years since i actually watched Encounter at Farpoint though and this prime version seems to be in way better definition than other streaming iterations. the net Q traps them in at the very beginning looked crisper than i remember.

TNG was remastered in HD from the original film and compositing elements, with the exception of some iffy work from an outsourced studio in season 2 it looks really good now.

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Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012





McSpanky posted:

TNG was remastered in HD from the original film and compositing elements, with the exception of some iffy work from an outsourced studio in season 2 it looks really good now.

hell yeah! this is gonna be a treat then. i might have to stop laptop watching and actually turn on my TV since I basically never watch anything in HD it never gets used.

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