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Krankenstyle posted:Ya so far I've been pretty lucky with solid records and haven't really had any need for DNA. I would probably feel different if circumstances were otherwise. OMG I <3 U PMing you Also how much is 200 SEK in real people money cuz I have a feeling its like, a lot.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:09
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My Dean, a Punjabi, made that trip and found they had records of the past 8 generations of his family's visits. This despite his family being Sikh not Hindu. I've been going through my mother's research on MyHeritage, and growing more despondent that I will ever be able to confirm the lot of crap being dumpstered there. Eh, hopefully my retirement will be long. Anyway, can anybody read or transliterate Hebrew? Got a bit of a mystery inscription on a headstone of an ancestor I'd like to clear up. Also google and other translation sites are failing abjectly at the following Latin transcription: Oua patres difficillime adepti sunt nolite turpiter relinquere I'm going to rought translate it as reading "Although our fathers endured difficulties, do not leave sad" but would love a more accurate reading.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:33
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Krankenstyle posted:omg fuckin yessss!!!! the new register searches on ArkivDigital have provided me with exact birth & marriage data for a pair of my Swedish ancestors that I have spent literally 15 years looking for!!!!!!!! That is very cool! Karlskrona is where my dad's dad's (name-bearing) immigrant ancestors hailed. From searching the digital archives from their parish I found their marriage certificate, which revealed that my last name is actually an Ellis Island name. Not really sure why Gustafsson was so hard it needed changing but whatevs, I'm stuck with this Scottish super common surname now
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Dec 13, 2019 20:54
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Oracle posted:OMG I <3 U PMing you go for it  Just looked it up, it's 195 SEK so roughly 21 USD e: link for future reference: https://arkivdigital.se/bestallningsfotografering Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 21:00
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Bilirubin posted:That is very cool! If you don't mind, I would like to see that with my own eyes. I've heard the "Ellis Island name" stories a lot, but they never made sense to me because the passenger manifests and tickets were written on the departure side where they knew people's names. It would be super interesting to see a counter-example. It's fine and I understand if you don't want to, but it'd be really neat if you'd PM them to me. Obviously, I won't share them.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:06
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Krankenstyle posted:If you don't mind, I would like to see that with my own eyes. I've heard the "Ellis Island name" stories a lot, but they never made sense to me because the passenger manifests and tickets were written on the departure side where they knew people's names. It would be super interesting to see a counter-example. It's fine and I understand if you don't want to, but it'd be really neat if you'd PM them to me. Obviously, I won't share them. Yeah they likely chose to change their names to fit in and have matching names with their parents not because someone screwed up the book keeping at Ellis Island (that employed like, a shitton of translators). My Swedish went from Andersson to Welam, to Welamsson to Williams (for one brother) and Williamson (for the other brother). All either their choice or they didn't feel like correcting the census taker and just went with it. Ditto for their wives who had their Swedish names on the trip over then changed to their husbands last names in the census and entered their fathers surnames to be the same as their maiden names on said father's death certs because otherwise they looked illegitimate to American eyes (I presume).
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Dec 13, 2019 21:16
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Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis to me. I can't think of any other reason for women to change their legitimate fathers' surnames. They themselves surely knew them, but it would probably be too much bullshit to go about explaining patronymics to a county clerk. Their motivation is probably unprovable though, unless someone somewhere finds a diary where they wrote it down in so many words. e: Although, in a sense, surnames are different from patronymics. The former were used by the nobles and the bourgeoisie and did not usually have the "shape" of patronymics. Regular folk could have "surnames", but they were simply bynames or nicknames and were rarely inheritable (although I've seen cases where a farm-byname was carried for 5 generations past the time they moved away from the farm, and one where origin of the byname "Swan" is lost to the mists of time but is definitely 4+ generations older than the surname laws of Denmark). Oh also, sometimes a patronymic can become a byname so: Jens Hansen, son: Hans Jensen, son: Svend Hansen Jensen, son: Anders Svendsen Jensen but i dont think that happened except with very rare given names/patronymics (unlike Jensen) Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 21:26
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Krankenstyle posted:If you don't mind, I would like to see that with my own eyes. I've heard the "Ellis Island name" stories a lot, but they never made sense to me because the passenger manifests and tickets were written on the departure side where they knew people's names. It would be super interesting to see a counter-example. It's fine and I understand if you don't want to, but it'd be really neat if you'd PM them to me. Obviously, I won't share them. I would have to retrace my search history and take some screencaptures, and I confess to not following up with ships manifests or Ellis Island records myself. I passed the information along to my mother and she logged their name variants along with the rest of the patronyms. I had confirmed my readings of the records from Blekinge were correct with a Swedish colleague (correct first names for both male and female, correct birth dates, but different surnames, a Gustafsson and Gustafsdotter--that Gustaf really got around) but yeah, am happy enough to chase this down this mini mystery. The surname I got is the same as the male's grandfather, while dropping the second s (Anderson), so it makes sense and also explains why many in my family were unable to trace things back in Sweden. Also digitized archives, bless them. And yes, they then moved to Andersonville in Chicago so. e. looks like Oracle nailed it Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 21:27
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Spelling only became standardized very late, so Andersson = Anderson = Andersøn = Annersen, osv. The longer you get back, the weirder they get with it, I've seen the name Paul spelled Poffwel (now usually spelled either Poul/Paul) Their different patronymics are just male/female of Gustafs-child (-son/-daughter). You probably know that but it wasn't clear from your post so I thought I'd mention it
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Dec 13, 2019 21:44
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Krankenstyle posted:Spelling only became standardized very late, so Andersson = Anderson = Andersøn = Annersen, osv. The longer you get back, the weirder they get with it, I've seen the name Paul spelled Poffwel (now usually spelled either Poul/Paul) I was making a veiled joke about sibling marriage Thanks for the spelling tips, will be helpful moving forward.Ironically my cousin who lives in Stockholm has the same last name but from yet another Gustaf from the other side of the country at some point or other. On the one hand I'm pretty glad the patronyms were abandoned but the Icelanders seem to make it work well enough
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Dec 13, 2019 22:03
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no prob! also whoops, if it wasn't clear from context, osv = etc  Gustafsson isn't even that high on the list of common Swedish surnames. I feel like at least 30% in the Faroe Islands are named Joensen. I have family there & there's been a recent revival of supplementary clarifying patronymics. So Elspa Joensen might change her name to Elspa Hildursdottir Joensen because her father is named Hildur Joensen, and then she just stops using the Joensen name that has become vestigial. She can even plain legally ditch the Joensen surname and go by her actual patronymic. This is possible because patronymics recently became legal again around 2006-ish in Denmark (and by extension the Faroes & Greenland), since the original reason for surnames (keeping track of people) hasn't been relevant for a long rear end time (we've had a govt identity management that covers virtually everyone since the late 1800s & it's all been digital since 1967). So, say if my name was Mikkel Svendsen, I could legally name my son Mads Mikkelsen — but not necessarily Mikkel Madsen, I can only choose a surname that is within my own family X generations back, or one based on my own given name. Naturally, matronymics are legal too.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:30
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Bilirubin posted:My Dean, a Punjabi, made that trip and found they had records of the past 8 generations of his family's visits. This despite his family being Sikh not Hindu. Found a guide to Plymouth that states the "free translation" is quote:Do not basely relinquish what the Fathers with difficulty gained Of course, there is according to the same source an "untranslatable" bit of Hebrew on it. Because, it wasn't written by a Jew since it actually states YHVH (in Adonai variant according to one site I found, but probably by a misty eyed evangelical or poo poo eating Thelemite). Best I have been able to work out, consulting with a fellow whose Hebrew is admittedly not strong, is "The Lord helped me in my life", but according to my consultant "its not grammatical in either current or historical Hebrew" A 8 foot tall obelisk set in 1827 with that poo poo written on it for a 17th century Puritan. LMAO my relatives/white people are terrible
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Dec 14, 2019 05:05
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I spent a lot of time on getting translated some latin & hebrew bible quotes written by a bishop in the 1700s, then copied by a priest in the 1890s, then transcribed by me in present day. You'd think it would be pretty easy because the Hebrew and Latin bibles have been pretty standard for over 500 years but it turns out that even minor transcription mistakes can bloom into a wilderness of incomprehension, and they can happen at every level of transcription. Hebrew does have the advantage of being an at least partially syllabic script. Except that my profoundly layman's understanding tells me that there's a very little difference between these two: יהוה = yahweh יהלה = yolo
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Dec 14, 2019 06:59
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Krankenstyle posted:I spent a lot of time on getting translated some latin & hebrew bible quotes written by a bishop in the 1700s, then copied by a priest in the 1890s, then transcribed by me in present day. You'd think it would be pretty easy because the Hebrew and Latin bibles have been pretty standard for over 500 years but it turns out that even minor transcription mistakes can bloom into a wilderness of incomprehension, and they can happen at every level of transcription. that is great
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Dec 14, 2019 07:18
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Bilirubin posted:that is great i should say that i dunno how correct that is, but it doesnt seem too off lol
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Dec 14, 2019 07:47
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Krankenstyle posted:I spent a lot of time on getting translated some latin & hebrew bible quotes written by a bishop in the 1700s, then copied by a priest in the 1890s, then transcribed by me in present day. You'd think it would be pretty easy because the Hebrew and Latin bibles have been pretty standard for over 500 years but it turns out that even minor transcription mistakes can bloom into a wilderness of incomprehension, and they can happen at every level of transcription. Fluent Modern Hebrew reader/writer/speaker/ranter and middle-school level Israeli public school Biblical Hebrew reader here: Generally, Hebrew is an abjad rather than a syllabic, so consonants mean more than vowels, and the "vowel letters" אית"ן and occasionally ה are only used as vowel hints sometimes, and even that can be inconsistent in old script (the Bible is notorious for being inconsistent with using ה when gendering). Specifically to this case, when I see a world like יהלה, I think it should sound like "yahalah" or "yahelah" - it's not a word in common use, so you'd probably have to add some vowel symbols to know how to pronounce it. I would definitely not pronounce it as "yolo", though; for that I'd use something like "יולו".
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Dec 14, 2019 17:26
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from my heart i thank you al hazred & your posting is drat good hashtag יולו
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Dec 14, 2019 19:38
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Definitely appreciated! How would you read the inscription here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124651729@N04/31545650742 ? You can scroll over to zoom
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Dec 14, 2019 23:14
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Bilirubin posted:Definitely appreciated! יהוה עזר חיי = "Yehovah Ezer Hayay" = God Helper of my Life Not sure I've run into such inscriptions, I'm used to תנצב"ה and such.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:יהוה עזר חיי = "Yehovah Ezer Hayay" = God Helper of my Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKLmZNnMT0A
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Dec 15, 2019 04:27
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Dealing with all the controversy over DNA tests then you see stories like this and god dammit genetic genealogy is cool.Elise Preston News posted:Earlier this year, I was blessed with one of the most incredible experiences of my life. My family found our family in Ghana/Togo all thanks to Ancestry DNA/23andMe. Our familial connection pre-dates the transatlantic slave trade. The relatives hosted us for two weeks, taking us to see elders and sites throughout Togo and Ghana. Every where we went, we were greeted with hugs and messages of “welcome home.” We walked the homeland where our ancestors were once free, but were stolen from. As a reunited family, we visited the slave castles and doors of no return. Evil meant for us to never find our people again- but we did. One night, a cousin around my age and I were talking about the discovery. “You don’t understand,” she said. “We always knew that family members were taken and sold into slavery. We know that our people were shipped across the ocean in terrible conditions. But when I see you, I see that our blood survived.”
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Dec 19, 2019 21:15
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That is really cool! I have a lot on my plate atm but I'll get to your stuff over yuletide, Oracle
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Dec 20, 2019 05:46
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Krankenstyle posted:That is really cool! I have been running around like a chicken with my head cut off so no rush no worries, its that time of year.
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Dec 20, 2019 18:19
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Oracle posted:I have been running around like a chicken with my head cut off so no rush no worries, its that time of year. aint it tho 
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Dec 20, 2019 19:40
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I've read about non paternity events before, but this one seems to be a bit of an extreme example. https://apnews.com/06842a6cd1243da73d2c5ce879d97c57 tl;dr - Baby is kidnapped in 1964, and 'found' 2 years later. Almost 50 years later, he takes a DNA test and it turns out he wasn't the actual baby that was kidnapped. Since then, the FBI has reopened the case, and now they've 'somehow' found the (now adult) man who was originally kidnapped.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:27
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NinjaPablo posted:I've read about non paternity events before, but this one seems to be a bit of an extreme example. Yeah the guy wrote a book about his experience and wanted to know if he wasn't his parents kid then who the hell was he. This is the answer to that question but they've been playing it close to the vest because I guess there's another book or tv movie or something coming out about it.
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Dec 21, 2019 05:03
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imo that guy is the son of the parents he grew up with even though he was mistakenly given to them at some point, you know? family is what feels like family, nothing else matters. Being a son or a daughter isn't about blood. When I write it out it always sounds so patronizing but its yule so here goes You're the child of whoever people you call your parents. That's easy to say, but I think it is also easy to feel? The canonical nuclear family definition rarely matches anyone; only we know. So, bearing that in mind: - My personal genealogy is an obsessive hunt for chains of documentation, I don't really care about bloodlines. To me the fun is the archaeological dig. - Many are looking for a bond that has been cut somewhere and for which written documentation may not even exist. They want to reunite with family. - Probably most people are looking for something in between.
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Dec 21, 2019 05:42
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Oracle posted:Dealing with all the controversy over DNA tests then you see stories like this and god dammit genetic genealogy is cool. There was a similar story of folks related to royalty in Ghana IIRC last year. Very cool indeed those signals didn't get washed out On another topic, was it here this story caught my attention first? If so apologies https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/us/dna-bone-marrow-transplant-crime-lab.html
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Dec 21, 2019 07:33
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Krankenstyle posted:imo that guy is the son of the parents he grew up with even though he was mistakenly given to them at some point, you know? family is what feels like family, nothing else matters. This was the basis for my partner's research before she gave it up due to health issues. A large number of adoptees do not feel some sort of mystical need to "know where they came from" because who raised them are their family, period.
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Dec 21, 2019 07:38
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I can definitely see wanting to know who your birth parents are. I would probably want to know, just at least to look at them...They wouldnt have to be my parents, just for closure or something idk im not in that situation iim thinking out loud
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Dec 21, 2019 08:03
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Yakiniku Teishoku fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Dec 22, 2019 07:10
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Holy lol browsing through some old church books and came across this gem.quote:The fifteenth day of January one thousand eight hundred and thirty two the undersigned baptized Ellen born in Packenham the second of last July of the abominable concubinage of George Hanover and of Catherine Habry sponsors William Hatery and Mary Buckley. Oracle fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 4, 2020 |
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Jan 4, 2020 22:48
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I love it when priests get sour in the church registers  Similarly, probates can have some excellent stuff in their inventory lists. Found one that listed "1 old cupboard, 1 pile of rubbish" valued together at 1 mark, and another one with "a bundle of miscellaneous" valued at 2 marks. btw I sent you a pm
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Jan 5, 2020 03:35
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So glad I was pointed to this thread! I made a thread in Ask/Tell but this thread answers a lot, including questions I didn't know I had. I think my current goal is to verify whether a certain man really is my ancestor. There is some dispute about whether he was or not. I'm hoping there's enough DNA info out there to verify whether he is or not. I'd love advice on the best way to go about this. Andre Bernard was born in or around 1620 in Beauvoir-Sur-Mer, in western France. He became a stonemason, and around 1641 migrated to New France (or Acadia), and came into the service of one of Acadia's governors, Charles La Tour. There were two governors, La Tour and Charles d'Aulnay, because the lieutenant governor had died and the bureaucrats in France divvied up the land between these two. However, their incompetence in doing so caused these two to quarrel over certain places. La Tour had built a fort on the shore around where Saint John, New Brunswick is now. It was a strategic trading location and d'Aulnay was not happy about this. While La Tour was better liked by people, d'Aulnay had better connections (he was apparently related to Cardinal Richelieu). d'Aulnay attacked the fort while La Tour was away, which became the Acadian Civil War. La Tour's wife led the defense of the fort, and it held until the 3rd day. d'Aulnay promised to let the men go if he could take the fort, but once Madam La Tour agreed he changed his mind and had almost all the men executed, and made her watch with a noose around her neck. One man from La Tour's fort was the hangman, it's not certain whether he volunteered for the role or was forced into it. That man was Andre Bernard, my supposed 8-greats grandfather. After the hangings, he was sent back to France and told the courts what happened, who then sent him back with an envoy to figure out what the gently caress to do about this shitshow. Apparently the villagers and even Andre's wife (Andrée Guyon, they'd had children) wanted nothing to do with him, so he took up with a Mi'kmaq (Indian) woman and they also had children. Andrée meanwhile married another man, Antoine Belliveau and they had children. So the question is who among these four are the parents of Rene Bernard, different sources have different answers. I believe the University of New Brunswick may have info about Andre's second wife. Fun facts: - I visited Beauvoir-Sur-Mer in August. There's a church there that was built in 1040. Got a lot of photos. - after the Acadian Expulsion (1755), Acadians were still being mistreated and displaced by the English. The village of Tignish in PEI was founded by 8 (or 9?) founding families, one of them headed by my 4-greats grandfather. They were apparently in hiding until the English left before they founded the village. - my 3-greats grand-uncle was a farmer who became a justice of the peace, and PEI's first Acadian politician (and was a Speaker of the PEI legislature). Here's a photo of him:  A current PEI politician is his direct descendant. - my great-grandfather was PEI's first Acadian lieutenant-governor. Here's a photo of him:  The current Lt-Gov may be related to him as well.
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Jan 7, 2020 22:37
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That's a really neat story! I don't know anything about DNA, but there are def others itt who do. I do know that in Denmark, hangmen were considered disreputable and unclean, and nobody would associate with them. They often doubled as natmænd (night-men), and had in that capacity other unclean/disreputable tasks such as skinning horses, burying self-dead animals, & emptying latrines. Here, they were often considered the same as another class of "undesirables", the tatere (actually Romani, then believed to originate from Tatarstan), and so these groups did mingle and intermarry to some extent. While both were pretty much untouchable castes, only the latter were often expelled from whatever parish they came to — the former were a necessary evil, performing the needed jobs that no honest man would. Once you became unclean/disreputable, it was pretty much impossible to reintegrate into society. Probably similar impulses were in play in Andre Bernard's case. Carthag Tuek fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 04:17
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That is an awesome story and quite interesting and I feel you in wanting to figure out whether or not he's your ggggranddaddy. The hard part is the French-Canadian bit. French-Canadians are notoriously endogamous (that's nice scientist speak for inbred as hell). Here is a great blog post about why This'll be helpful when you start digging into the records. A link to a very good website that is probably the current standard for legit/correct French-Canadian ancestry tracing. You can get my whole genetic genealogy intro post over at the African-American genealogy thread in TGRS. once you get tested these folks can probably help you Now you may get lucky since you had a famous descendant of his as your ancestor, and you are lucky in that French-Canadians have some of the most well-documented lineages in the New World. The untangling of French-Canadian DNA is gonna give you fits though, so do your legwork in the books first so you can at least attempt to narrow down which of the 15 different potential routes you're going to take.
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Jan 10, 2020 09:52
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By the way, if you haven’t previously encountered them, you should familiarize yourself with the concept of dit names, because the records are gonna have a lot of them and they are gonna confuse the heck out of you if you aren’t familiar.quote:A name such as Adolphe Guillet dit Tourangeau can translate as "Adolphe Guillet, called Tourangeau", where both "Guillet" and "Tourangeau" are used as surnames, sometimes together and sometimes individually in different situations. The dit name carried the same legal weight as the original family name with regard to land transfers and the naming of children.
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Jan 13, 2020 18:06
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ComradeCosmobot posted:By the way, if you haven’t previously encountered them, you should familiarize yourself with the concept of dit names, because the records are gonna have a lot of them and they are gonna confuse the heck out of you if you aren’t familiar. Yeah my French-Canadian surname is an actual dit name. The original surname is completely different and unrelated. I believe mine was a joke name because my nth great-grandfather was a bossy little poo poo.
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Jan 14, 2020 01:20
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Speaking of DNA test controversy--if I get one, am I basically kissing all privacy goodbye? Should I fear these things like the Luddite I am?
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Jan 15, 2020 16:41
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ThePopeOfFun posted:Speaking of DNA test controversy--if I get one, am I basically kissing all privacy goodbye? Should I fear these things like the Luddite I am? Eh. You shed DNA everywhere you go, so unless you plan on having someone on the level of the Secret Service collect all your used napkins and tissues and poop and such for the rest of your life, if 'They' want your DNA, they can get it. Most of the suspected serial killers/rapists caught via DNA and genetic genealogy (the living ones anyway) were caught because cops waited around until they threw out like a McDonalds cup they'd been drinking or blew their nose and collected it to test their DNA then once it came back a match got a warrant and did it all official and chain of custody like. In the U.S., GINA protects you against your DNA results being used against you to determine things like health insurance coverage or employment but doesn't protect against say, life insurance or long term care insurance coverage denial or what have you (depending on the state, some have better protections like I think California). Most people are more worried about people using their DNA to develop new treatments for various diseases and not getting a cut or finding out their dad isn't their dad or they fathered a kid somewhere or they were switched at birth with someone else or things along those lines. Privacy as regards those things are things to worry about, sure. Certain genetic diseases are not something you want to find out via a fun 23&Me test, for instance, and once certain things are known the cat can't be put back in the bag. They also happen enough that there's tons of advice on how to deal with them out there. But privacy is kind of a relic of a former time anyway given everyone posts everything on the internet nowadays and people can buy like your entire credit history for pretty cheap. So basically ask yourself what are you afraid of happening if you test, how realistic is that fear, and how much that you're afraid of happening (loss of privacy) has already come to pass due to living in a modern Information Age (hi google/Facebook).
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Jan 15, 2020 20:43
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