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Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

My tickets are for August. I ordered them in 2015 so I'm not sure if that counts as lucky.

Ah awesome. I guess sorta lucky since you got them before it exploded and became basically impossible. Like I consider myself EXTREMELY lucky. There was a 5 minute window to check twitter to be able to get those tickets, and I managed it completely by accident.

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CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



I like Burr because, like Burr, I am nakedly ambitious to the irritation of those around me.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Asiina posted:

Ah awesome. I guess sorta lucky since you got them before it exploded and became basically impossible. Like I consider myself EXTREMELY lucky. There was a 5 minute window to check twitter to be able to get those tickets, and I managed it completely by accident.

Cool! It's also possible that I just checked in at the right time, I have no clue really.


CCKeane posted:

I like Burr because, like Burr, I am nakedly ambitious to the irritation of those around me.

Wouldn't that make you Hamilton, idk.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

check it out
a post


Hamiliton is kinda a one note figure in history too, an interesting one with a story but still one note.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


The twist in Hamilton is that he's the villain.

AnonymousNarcotics
Aug 6, 2012

we will go far into the sea
you will take me
onto your back
never look back
never look back


Ok just finished listening to act 1. I dub it mediocre so far. The songs I know better I enjoy more so I guess the more I listen to it the more it would grow on me.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Kashuno posted:

I'm on mobile right now but burr and Hamilton are vastly different characters who, while crossing paths and having somewhat similar goals (although not really) have completely different character arcs and burr is far superior because Hamilton doesn't change throughout the entire story. I love the show but being real Hamilton is probably the only one note character in the whole thing

I guess I like the cyclical nature of Hamilton's arc and that he absolutely can't help himself from speaking up and pushing for greater things no matter how much trouble it gets him in. Like the transition from Dear Theodosia to Non-Stop, which is fueled by a song that's not on the cast recording, in that he feels he needs to keep going for the sake of Laurens who ran out of time to do what he wanted. Then the obvious example is Hurricane where he feels like he has to do something and ruins his own life. But my favourite example is exactly one word, and that's "Yo" from The Election of 1800. He's still softly saying It's Quiet Uptown, so he's in that family mindset and focusing on Eliza and his surviving children and his grief, but when pressed to be important again by pushing delegates to vote, he just can't help himself. The bravado with which he says "Yo" is so intense and tells you that once again he can't help himself but to speak up.

So I don't think it's one note, I think it's a person who has a really deep character flaw that despite lots of effort to improve it and devastating consequences because of it, he just is unable to help himself. He has to speak his mind and he has to be in the spotlight.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





dongsbot 9000 posted:

we've had this discussion and the best song is actually satisfied

this is correct (and I want in)

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Cool! It's also possible that I just checked in at the right time, I have no clue really.


Wouldn't that make you Hamilton, idk.

Nah, Hamilton is ambitious but it's tempered by things widely deemed as more important. Burr is pretty much straight up "Okay let's make sure I'm set first, then we'll get to everything else second." It's a less heroic stance, whether the heroism is driven by self-righteousness is another matter entirely.

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

I gotta wait till it's on tour

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

MMM Whatchya Say posted:


Wouldn't that make you Hamilton, idk.

Nah, Burr wants power for its own sake and so he can be important. The Room Where it Happens is about wanting to be in the know. It's a gossip's ambition. Hamilton wants power because he wants to impact change. He has a strong moral compass. Too strong.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

AnonymousNarcotics posted:

Ok just finished listening to act 1. I dub it mediocre so far. The songs I know better I enjoy more so I guess the more I listen to it the more it would grow on me.

You're not allowed to play anymore!

tpink
Feb 18, 2013



Melman

AnonymousNarcotics posted:

Ok just finished listening to act 1. I dub it mediocre so far. The songs I know better I enjoy more so I guess the more I listen to it the more it would grow on me.

I love the show now quite a bit, but aside from a few songs, I don't remember loving it on the first pass-through. I think it takes a few times at least. And it also really helps to follow along with the lyrics if you have time to set aside for that. Once you listen to / read through the entire show, preferably in a single pass, things fall into place, you start seeing how a lot of the themes repeat or just pop up here and there in cool ways, and it all just really comes together as a whole. Or it did for me at least.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Hamilton is not pushing for things that are just for the greater good though. The perfect line about Hamilton is "why do you assume you're the smartest in the room?" Because that's just it. He is a guy who literally sees himself above everyone right up until the end. Arguably he sees Washington above him but even then it's questionable if he even does or if he is just trying to seize another opportunity for himself. In the end he gives up his shot on burr, but it shows that only in death can Hamilton truly realize himself for what he is with "what is a legacy?"

Idk Hamilton feels so much less about hamiltons own development as a character study and much more about how Hamiltons steady to a fault character influenced the people and the world around him

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008





Also the Hamilton/Burr conversations are consistently the Best Thing. Especially the one during the Ten Duel Commandments.

"Alexander!" "Aaron Burr, sir!"
"Can we agree that duels are dumb and immature?" "Sure.
But your man has to answer for his words, Burr."
"With his life? We both know that's absurd, sir."
"Hang on, how many people died because Lee was inexperienced and ruinous?"
"...Okay, so we're doing this."

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


CCKeane posted:

Nah, Hamilton is ambitious but it's tempered by things widely deemed as more important. Burr is pretty much straight up "Okay let's make sure I'm set first, then we'll get to everything else second." It's a less heroic stance, whether the heroism is driven by self-righteousness is another matter entirely.

Yeah fair, They're both very ambitious, Burr more nakedly so, but I was more going of the "To the irritation of those around me" which is a much more Hamilton thing.

Asiina posted:

You're not allowed to play anymore!

don be rude

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Asiina posted:

Nah, Burr wants power for its own sake and so he can be important. The Room Where it Happens is about wanting to be in the know. It's a gossip's ambition. Hamilton wants power because he wants to impact change. He has a strong moral compass. Too strong.

Hamilton does not have a strong moral compass at all in the entire show what

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



Asiina posted:

Nah, Burr wants power for its own sake and so he can be important. The Room Where it Happens is about wanting to be in the know. It's a gossip's ambition. Hamilton wants power because he wants to impact change. He has a strong moral compass. Too strong.

Hamilton's moral compass is strong in a very specific way. His compass is that of the radical who hears about a politically motivated assault, and waits until he finds out who hurt who before thinking it bad or good. His sense of morality stems very much from what agrees with Hamilton's wants the most.

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


the worst parts of hamilton are all the parts where lin-manuel miranda sings because hes not very good at it

like ok if you're into singspiels, miranda is fine as hamilton but musically hes not very good at it

hes a fine rapper and actor and obviously an exceptional writer and producer and such but yeah the songs where hamilton is singing are uh not great

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


E: ^^^ I love Lin, but I can never help but feel that casting yourself in the lead role of the musical you've written and directed is a bit of an arrogant move that might not work out the best.

Re: morality

Actually, it's funny, I feel like Hamilton wants to do great things to be important almost. Like, the whole national treasury thing isn't even about that, it's about Hamilton winning. Him joing the revolution is about him rising up etc.

I suppose you could argue that Burr is the opposite, but it's never portrayed that way in the show.

MMM Whatchya Say fucked around with this message at May 31, 2016 around 02:21

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

In the course of this show, Hamilton refuses multiple "secretary" positions to get to the top where he thinks he will be best, constantly causes issues for Washington, married a woman he didn't love, cheats on her, harms his own political party, hugely impacts financial and government systems with no regard for anyone but his own goals, indirectly causes the death of his son, acts smug as all hell when confronted by Jefferson and crew about his infidelity, puts his infidelity to the press as a reveal to his wife, is in love with his sister in law, etc etc etc. Hamilton is driven by his own status

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Yeah fair, They're both very ambitious, Burr more nakedly so, but I was more going of the "To the irritation of those around me" which is a much more Hamilton thing.


don be rude

A lot of this is because I've gotten increasingly jaded, but I think a dude like Burr who slips into a role with a decent but flexible sense of duty can effect a lot of change. I suspect a lot of this is because I know several radical types that disgust me since I hear them cheer on terrible things that happen to people they disagree with, and I think some people just have a sense of right and wrong that goes no further than "bad things happening to bad people are good"

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



MMM Whatchya Say posted:

E: ^^^ I love Lin, but I can never help but feel that casting yourself in the lead role of the musical you've written and directed is a bit of an arrogant move that might not work out the best.

Re: morality

Actually, it's funny, I feel like Hamilton wants to do great things to be important almost. Like, the whole national treasury thing isn't even about that, it's about Hamilton winning. Him joing the revolution is about him rising up etc.

I suppose you could argue that Burr is the opposite, but it's never portrayed that way in the show.

This is a much better articulation than I could manage.

I don't think Hamilton wants to do great things because great things need to be done. I think Hamilton wants to be the doer of great things.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


CCKeane posted:

A lot of this is because I've gotten increasingly jaded, but I think a dude like Burr who slips into a role with a decent but flexible sense of duty can effect a lot of change. I suspect a lot of this is because I know several radical types that disgust me since I hear them cheer on terrible things that happen to people they disagree with, and I think some people just have a sense of right and wrong that goes no further than "bad things happening to bad people are good"

I identify most with Burr.

Kashuno posted:

In the course of this show, Hamilton refuses multiple "secretary" positions to get to the top where he thinks he will be best, constantly causes issues for Washington, married a woman he didn't love, cheats on her, harms his own political party, hugely impacts financial and government systems with no regard for anyone but his own goals, indirectly causes the death of his son, acts smug as all hell when confronted by Jefferson and crew about his infidelity, puts his infidelity to the press as a reveal to his wife, is in love with his sister in law, etc etc etc. Hamilton is driven by his own status

I agree that Hamilton is fairly gross, but I think saying he doesn't love Eliza is a bit of interpretation.

Not necessarily invalid interpretation, but it's not like, a supported fact.

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



I feel Burr really hard, yeah.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

H O L E
M A D N E S S


Grimey Drawer

Angelica says it clearly in satisfied that he will never be satisfied with her. He is writing to Angelica when Eliza is trying to get him to come to dinner on Phillips birthday. He specifically says "longing for Angelica, missing my wife" and longing is a much more powerful word. He loves Angelica truly, and Eliza never satisfied him

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Kashuno posted:

In the course of this show, Hamilton refuses multiple "secretary" positions to get to the top where he thinks he will be best, constantly causes issues for Washington, married a woman he didn't love, cheats on her, harms his own political party, hugely impacts financial and government systems with no regard for anyone but his own goals, indirectly causes the death of his son, acts smug as all hell when confronted by Jefferson and crew about his infidelity, puts his infidelity to the press as a reveal to his wife, is in love with his sister in law, etc etc etc. Hamilton is driven by his own status

This is a pretty slanted view on a lot of these things. He does love Eliza. He also loves Angelica, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love Eliza. He also studied extremely hard to come up with his financial system, and his frustration stems that nobody is taking it seriously. He believes strongly in things and is literally a "this is a hill I'm going to die on" about them all, which is why compromise comes so hard to him. He's strongly abolitionist, he believes in a strong central democracy, he believes in the constitution, he believes in Washington.

I agree he has a lot of flaws, and one of them is a complete lack of consideration about how his actions affect others around him. It's all very my way or the highway. He also really wants to increase his status since he came from horrendous conditions in his childhood and wants to build something to be remembered for. But that's not the same thing as power for power's sake, which is what Burr is all about.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Kashuno posted:

Angelica says it clearly in satisfied that he will never be satisfied with her. He is writing to Angelica when Eliza is trying to get him to come to dinner on Phillips birthday. He specifically says "longing for Angelica, missing my wife" and longing is a much more powerful word. He loves Angelica truly, and Eliza never satisfied him

No, she's saying he'll never be satisfied in general, not just with her, which he says himself in their meeting. Which is true, he always wants more.

Angelica is his intellectual equal, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love Eliza deeply.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Kashuno posted:

Angelica says it clearly in satisfied that he will never be satisfied with her. He is writing to Angelica when Eliza is trying to get him to come to dinner on Phillips birthday. He specifically says "longing for Angelica, missing my wife" and longing is a much more powerful word. He loves Angelica truly, and Eliza never satisfied him

Hamilton would also not be satisfied marrying Angelica. He just won't be satisfied.

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply



Asiina posted:

This is a pretty slanted view on a lot of these things. He does love Eliza. He also loves Angelica, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love Eliza. He also studied extremely hard to come up with his financial system, and his frustration stems that nobody is taking it seriously. He believes strongly in things and is literally a "this is a hill I'm going to die on" about them all, which is why compromise comes so hard to him. He's strongly abolitionist, he believes in a strong central democracy, he believes in the constitution, he believes in Washington.

I agree he has a lot of flaws, and one of them is a complete lack of consideration about how his actions affect others around him. It's all very my way or the highway. He also really wants to increase his status since he came from horrendous conditions in his childhood and wants to build something to be remembered for. But that's not the same thing as power for power's sake, which is what Burr is all about.

Power is pretty neutral, it's how you use it that matters. If Hamilton was more willing to schmooze and compromise, he'd probably have better luck in accomplishing some of his loftier goals. Hell, Room Where it Happened was about compromise, wasn't it?

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

If you don't feel for Burr you're loving dead inside.

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Hamilton would also not be satisfied marrying Angelica. He just won't be satisfied.

he will never be satisfied

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

CCKeane posted:

A lot of this is because I've gotten increasingly jaded, but I think a dude like Burr who slips into a role with a decent but flexible sense of duty can effect a lot of change. I suspect a lot of this is because I know several radical types that disgust me since I hear them cheer on terrible things that happen to people they disagree with, and I think some people just have a sense of right and wrong that goes no further than "bad things happening to bad people are good"

I agree that Hamilton's way of doing things is a very scary ends justify the means, but Burr's complete lack of moral fibre is equally terrifying. Hamilton wants certain things to happen and is willing to go to any length to get them done. Burr literally has no beliefs in the entire show other than his love for his daughter. You can't rely on someone like that in power to actually affect change that will reflect what you want out of your government. It's a purely selfish desire and for an official who is supposed to represent the people's interests, that's dangerous.

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

Asiina posted:

I agree that Hamilton's way of doing things is a very scary ends justify the means, but Burr's complete lack of moral fibre is equally terrifying. Hamilton wants certain things to happen and is willing to go to any length to get them done. Burr literally has no beliefs in the entire show other than his love for his daughter. You can't rely on someone like that in power to actually affect change that will reflect what you want out of your government. It's a purely selfish desire and for an official who is supposed to represent the people's interests, that's dangerous.

Yeah but in reality, Burr did have some very strong beliefs like women's rights and abolition, and acted upon them. He certainly would have made an interesting president in a world where the Hamilton endorsement went the other way.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

CCKeane posted:

Power is pretty neutral, it's how you use it that matters. If Hamilton was more willing to schmooze and compromise, he'd probably have better luck in accomplishing some of his loftier goals. Hell, Room Where it Happened was about compromise, wasn't it?

It was and it basically broke him.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


CCKeane posted:

I feel Burr really hard, yeah.

My favourite Burr character flaw is his ability to gently caress up strong positions. When he meets Washington, he gets so tripped up in formalities he never actually says anything. It's worth noting that at this point in the story he's already a war hero. He briefly alluded to with the Montgomery line, but never actually went anywhere with it.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Absurd Revolver posted:

Yeah but in reality, Burr did have some very strong beliefs like women's rights and abolition, and acted upon them. He certainly would have made an interesting president in a world where the Hamilton endorsement went the other way.

Yeah I've been reading Chernow's book and I've read a fair bit about Hamilton and Burr outside of what's in the musical, so I'm trying not to let that colour my view. Burr was a very interesting person in that he did have some admirable qualities, but also some of the stuff he did after he shot Hamilton reinforces the idea that he just wanted to collect power for himself.

MMM Whatchya Say
Aug 10, 2011

This doesn't taste like anything you've licked before


Absurd Revolver posted:

Yeah but in reality, Burr did have some very strong beliefs like women's rights and abolition, and acted upon them. He certainly would have made an interesting president in a world where the Hamilton endorsement went the other way.

My favourite real life Burr story was when he fled to texas after murdering another founding father, where upon he commited treason in a bid to annex texas and become an emperor.

Later he would gold dig the richest woman in America and then flee debt collectors to europe, where he had so much sex a pornographic book was written about it.

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

Asiina posted:

Yeah I've been reading Chernow's book and I've read a fair bit about Hamilton and Burr outside of what's in the musical, so I'm trying not to let that colour my view. Burr was a very interesting person in that he did have some admirable qualities, but also some of the stuff he did after he shot Hamilton reinforces the idea that he just wanted to collect power for himself.

To be fair, shooting Hamilton sort of broke him afterwards by all accounts. Maybe after you shoot a political rival, you try and take over Mexico?

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Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

My favourite Burr character flaw is his ability to gently caress up strong positions. When he meets Washington, he gets so tripped up in formalities he never actually says anything. It's worth noting that at this point in the story he's already a war hero. He briefly alluded to with the Montgomery line, but never actually went anywhere with it.

I like that too. He spent so much time flattering Washington and trying to namedrop General Montgomery that he never got to the point.

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