Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

Hitler was on tons of drugs and said a lot of various things and looking for internal logic/consistency is kind of a losing game.

I can quote you things that are super anti-Islam from him, too.

no for the most part he was pretty pro-islam because he saw them as an alternative to christianity, which he despised as tainted by jewishness

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jose Mengelez
Sep 11, 2001

by Azathoth
hahah that hitler sure was a scamp

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Mange Mite posted:

no for the most part he was pretty pro-islam because he saw them as an alternative to christianity, which he despised as tainted by jewishness


And yet he referred to the population of the Middle East as "painted half-apes that ought to feel the whip."

He wasn't pro-Islam or pro-Muslim, he just thought Islam/Muslims were better than typical Christians/Jews. Both were below Aryans in the "ladder of racial hierarchy." Islam wasn't ever a real alternative that any Nazi would have ever tried to implement.

:shrug:

They weren't morons though, they knew they couldn't just piss the entire world off. They downplayed that in their public proclamations and when Mein Kampf was translated into Arabic in 1938 they omitted the 'ladder of racial hierarchy' bit.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc
He also wrote positively about alliance with Turkey on the grounds that an islamic nation was most amenable ideologically to the reich. Also finland.

Turkey and Finland...

OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jun 6, 2016

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Well but that's my point, dude was nuts and on tons of drugs who fuckin' knows what was really going on in his head?

At best you could say he realized he couldn't go into a 3 front war and didn't want to inflame the ME by unnecessarily calling them trash people.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

And yet he referred to the population of the Middle East as "painted half-apes that ought to feel the whip."

He wasn't pro-Islam or pro-Muslim, he just thought Islam/Muslims were better than typical Christians/Jews. Both were below Aryans in the "ladder of racial hierarchy." Islam wasn't ever a real alternative that any Nazi would have ever tried to implement.

:shrug:

Islam isn't a race, dude. There's white muslims and asian muslims, etc.

He thought arabs were lesser than whites, though he also thought they were "warrior races" which were uncivilized but good at fighting, like the mongols.

Hilter was an atheist (of sorts) and ultimately his ideal was to wipe out christianity and convert all the churches into science museums. But he was positive about islam and even talked whistfully about "what ifs" where an islamic germany could have conquered the world

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Bro I'm not going to sit here and try to explain how Hitler's views were logical to you (they probably aren't), I'm simply saying what it says in Mein Kampf.

The Germans knew it was anti-Arabic/Islamic/Muslim/whatever because they omitted those bits in the Arabic translation. Proof in of itself that their ideology sucked for the Middle East too.

Roylicious fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 6, 2016

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

Bro I'm not going to sit here and try to explain how Hitler's views were logical to you (they probably aren't), I'm simply saying what it says in Mein Kampf.

The Germans knew it was anti-Arabic/Islamic/Muslim/whatever because they omitted those bits in the Arabic translation. Proof in of itself that their ideology sucked for the Middle East too.

Again, he was anti-arab but not anti-muslim. I can't believe Hitler is actually more progressive on this than you by recognizing that islam is a religion and not an ethnicity.

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
If you are going to say he supported the idea of Islam as a religion separate from Arabs or whatever then maybe but that's meaningless batshit historical 'what if' fantasizing on his part, too.


Dude was nuts and I can't believe you're trying to justify his quackery. Nazis had no intention at any time of ever ending up in a world where Islam is their neighbor.

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Might as well say Himmler supported Hinduism/Buddhism because he carried a Bhagavad Gita around in his jacket pocket and liked India.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

If you are going to say he supported the idea of Islam as a religion separate from Arabs or whatever then maybe but that's meaningless batshit historical 'what if' fantasizing on his part, too.


Dude was nuts and I can't believe you're trying to justify his quackery. Nazis had no intention at any time of ever ending up in a world where Islam is their neighbor.
On the political and sentimental level, there's no obstacle to an alliance between Turkey and the Reich. By reason of her attachment to Islam, Turkey has a completely clear-cut religious policy.
...
After their first conflict with the Russians, the Finns applied to me, proposing that their country should become a German protectorate. I don't regret having rejected this offer. As a matter of fact, the heroic attitude of this people, which has spent a hundred of the six hundred years of its history in fighting, deserves the greatest respect. It is infinitely better to have this people of heroes as allies than to incorporate it in the Germanic Reich—which, in any case, would not fail to provoke complica­tions in the long run. The Finns cover one of our flanks, Turkey covers the other. That's an ideal solution for me as far as our political protective system is concerned.

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Can you not separate short term war/political strategy in creating a buffer ally/state and the general idea that they held that nonetheless no one in the world is as good as the Aryan German and everyone else is a mongrel race fit at best to serve?

He said the same kind of stuff about the USSR and Stalin, too, before he invaded them.

Here is his quote about the Middle East, verbatim:

quote:

We shall continue to make disturbances in the Far East and in Arabia. Let us think as men and let us see in these peoples at best lacquered half-apes who are anxious to experience the lash.

Roylicious fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jun 6, 2016

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
Which is basically 'we're going to continue expanding our influence/power in that region so as to bring our rule there and bring those half-apes to heel.'

Right?

Allying Turkey (at the point of a gun, really, as most of the Axis allies in that region were) isn't mutually exclusive to that belief/motivation. He didn't ally Turkey because he liked them.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

Can you not separate short term war/political strategy in creating a buffer ally/state and the general idea that they held that nonetheless no one in the world is as good as the Aryan German and everyone else is a mongrel race fit at best to serve?

He said the same kind of stuff about the USSR and Stalin, too, before he invaded them.

Here is his quote about the Middle East, verbatim:

Nobody said he didn't hold Arabs to be lesser races, though? And turks aren't arabs. Seriously, you're conflating islam, arabs, and now turks into one general mass of "brown people" which is pretty backwards honestly

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Mange Mite posted:

Nobody said he didn't hold Arabs to be lesser races, though? And turks aren't arabs.

lol all I said was 'dude was nuts and who knows what was really happening in his head - you can't say he was necessarily pro-Islam based on a few public proclamations/speeches' and here you are showing me that Nazi Germany allied Turkey as if that is supposed to prove anything other than England was jockeying for a Turkish alliance at the same time.

I'm not the one trying to say Hitler had a perfectly logical and reasoned out view on things.

Onkel Hedwig
Jun 27, 2007


Ape Fist posted:

Deus Vult.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

lol all I said was 'dude was nuts and who knows what was really happening in his head - you can't say he was necessarily pro-Islam based on a few public proclamations/speeches' and here you are showing me that Nazi Germany allied Turkey as if that is supposed to prove anything.

These aren't public proclamations, these are based on his private writings and recorded conversations with his underlings.

Why do you say "we can't know anything! dude was crazy!" and then immediately after make a bunch of counter-claims. Why is hitler such a big deal to you?

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Mange Mite posted:

These aren't public proclamations, these are based on his private writings and recorded conversations with his underlings.

Why do you say "we can't know anything! dude was crazy!" and then immediately after make a bunch of counter-claims. What do you know that's so special? Why is hitler such a big deal to you?

Okay well again going 'drat Christianity has turned us into pussies, Islam would have been better maybe' doesn't suddenly mean Hitler is pro-Islam. He said the same thing about the Japanese religion but no one is saying Hitler was pro-Shinto

quote:

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[101]

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

Okay well again going 'drat Christianity has turned us into pussies, Islam would have been better maybe' doesn't suddenly mean Hitler is pro-Islam.

You seem awful upset that Hitler wasn't anti-islam

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
You seem awfully convinced that you know what Hitler's position on the subject was, which is stupid. That's all.

Fat Lowtax
Nov 9, 2008


"I'm willing to pay up to $1200 for a big anime titty"


Autofilter "Islam isn't a race" to "I'm gay"

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc
"How dare you speak for Hitler! How dare you!"

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Mange Mite posted:

"How dare you speak for Hitler! How dare you!"

Whatever bro you're the one turning his lamentation that Christianity is a religion of meekness and submission that does not serve warriors (which has been a complaint about Christianity from Germanic tribes since Christianity first came to the area) into 'Hitler liked Islam.'

www
Aug 4, 2010

hitler did nothing wrong

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

www posted:

hitler did nothing wrong

Fire Barrel
Mar 28, 2010
A lot of neo-nazis are actually pretty opposed to Christianity for the same reason. This supposed taint of "Jewishness" that infected the religion from its start and is a source of degeneration in Western society. It's no surprise that so many neo-nazis cling to their very stilted reconstructions of paganism (i.e. Odinism). Since most are nationalists, Islam is also on their poo poo lists. That's one reason why so many modern pagan groups that are interested in the Norse gods have to do their darnedest to make sure those nazis don't show up and start talking about blood brotherhood and ultra nationalist politics.

Also, holding something in higher regard doesn't mean really liking it per se, but just thinking it has more admirable qualities than something you hate/condemn.

Decebal
Jan 6, 2010
It's ridiculous to expect the whole tournament to finish without any attacks. There's no way they can track every wacko out there now that you only need an internet connection to be indoctrinated.

Good luck !

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps

Fire Barrel posted:

A lot of neo-nazis are actually pretty opposed to Christianity for the same reason. This supposed taint of "Jewishness" that infected the religion from its start and is a source of degeneration in Western society. It's no surprise that so many neo-nazis cling to their very stilted reconstructions of paganism (i.e. Odinism). Since most are nationalists, Islam is also on their poo poo lists. That's one reason why so many modern pagan groups that are interested in the Norse gods have to do their darnedest to make sure those nazis don't show up and start talking about blood brotherhood and ultra nationalist politics.

Also, holding something in higher regard doesn't mean really liking it per se, but just thinking it has more admirable qualities than something you hate/condemn.

Hey a reasonable poster.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Fire Barrel posted:

Also, holding something in higher regard doesn't mean really liking it per se, but just thinking it has more admirable qualities than something you hate/condemn.

I don't think the distinction is really that important here though? Unless you're tryimg to move thr goalposts or something that's some serious hair-splitting for a forums post

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
That's not serious half splitting at all.

That's logically saying "I hate X more than Y, that doesn't mean I love Y."

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

That's not serious half splitting at all.

That's logically saying "I hate Y but not as much as X, that doesn't mean I like Y."

It's me saying "here's a funny Hitler quote" and then you getting mad that I'm putting words in Hitler's mouth

Roylicious
Feb 21, 2012

Braver than the cops
ain't afraid of no chaps
If they steppin up on me
I just start bustin some caps
It's you going 'Hitler loved Islam' and me going 'Hitler was nuts bro who fuckin' knows what he really thought' and you going 'I KNOW.'

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Roylicious posted:

It's you going 'Hitler loved Islam' and me going 'Hitler was nuts bro who fuckin' knows what he really thought' and you going 'I KNOW.'

Yeah i have no idea what you're going for here

Fire Barrel
Mar 28, 2010

Mange Mite posted:

I don't think the distinction is really that important here though? Unless you're tryimg to move thr goalposts or something that's some serious hair-splitting for a forums post

I'm just saying it seems like the argument is happening over something minor, since it's also incorrect to say that he didn't see any good qualities in Islam either. Which is what I think Roylicious was trying to say :shrug:


Roylicious posted:

It's you going 'Hitler loved Islam' and me going 'Hitler was nuts bro who fuckin' knows what he really thought' and you going 'I KNOW.'

Also, I didn't really read Mange Mite's posts as him saying that "Hitler loved Islam." Just that Hitler saw more of worth in Islam than Christianity/Judaism. Edited for clarity.

Fire Barrel fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jun 6, 2016

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Fire Barrel posted:

Also, I didn't really read his posts as him saying that "Hitler loved Islam." Just that Hitler saw more of worth in Islam than Christianity/Judaism.

I think you'll find that my exact words were that he "had a big ol boner for islam"

Creamed Cormp
Jan 8, 2011

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
It's really hosed up this guy wanted to kill jews imho.

Tolkien minority
Feb 14, 2012


Roylicious posted:

Hitler was on tons of drugs and said a lot of various things and looking for internal logic/consistency is kind of a losing game.



drat sounds like a cool dude

Chinatown
Sep 11, 2001

by Fluffdaddy
Fun Shoe
europe is hosed lmao

trump 2016 motherfuckers

eat FRESH!!!

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Fire Barrel posted:

I'm just saying it seems like the argument is happening over something minor, since it's also incorrect to say that he didn't see any good qualities in Islam either. Which is what I think Roylicious was trying to say :shrug:

The actual argument (left entirely as subtext) is that Roylicios is angry about people trying to understand Hitler as opposed to writing him off as a freak madman. In one, you have to admit that the roots of the Holocaust stretch back to centuries of antisemitism and the rational amoral pursuit of nationalist ends, whereas he wants to just say "oh he was a crazy drug addict who knows what he thought nothing to see here" because the alternative is to admit that hitler was a pretty understsndable dude, and that hitler is inside all of us we are all hitler

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Chinatown posted:

europe is hosed lmao

trump 2016 motherfuckers

eat FRESH!!!

  • Locked thread