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Terrible Opinions posted:Did F13 ever fix the problem with shift grabbing being aggressively unfun? I have not played since the beta. they turned the grab radius down pretty hard so doing it from shift is a lot more difficult now it still happens occasionally, but particularly if you're paying attention and start running wildly when jason shifts your ability to resist it/retain agency is much improved now.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:00
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Eldercain posted:I mostly play SWF and none of us do that poo poo so I honestly don't have a good gauge on how common that is. I will say, I see people complain about body-blocking a lot but isn't that just a way to trade your resources as survivors (health states = time spent healing and not doing gens)? I've never understood the complaint against it as a tactic since health and number of hooks are the only trading cards survivors have to stall killers. Its a crap tactic for the reasons other people have posted (there being no risk to getting bopped because of heals) but let me point out a weird reversal in your thinking. Survivors do not want to stall. Killers want to stall the progress of the match (sacrificing works at this well because it decreases the labor pool) but survivors want to get out and done. TGLT posted:It's not every game, but it's not rare or anything. The only upside is those kinds of groups can get so wrapped up in it they start making really stupid mistakes leading to full wipes. After which they'll almost certainly whine in chat about it. Since survivors can heal each other, and often themselves, getting injured for a body block costs them nothing, while denying the killer a hook. Its a way unbalanced equation, especially because getting the hook without bodyblocking can be tough enough. Sporkie posted:It's this. The forums for DbD are always overwhelmingly toxic, because no one ever wants to lose, Well thats the nail on the head. Salty survivors will be the first to call you a 'camping human being' or a 'tunnel whore' but its because that is what is takes to win. What do the survivors expect? For a Killer to hook a Survivor and then run to the other side of the map, ignoring the other Survivors obviously running up to unhook? Should a Killer give a Survivor a bonk and then let them run off and heal, negating the chase entirely? What is the expected behavior, and how does it fit into a competitive game?
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Nov 14, 2017 01:09
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lol
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Nov 14, 2017 01:20
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LeJackal posted:What do the survivors expect? For a Killer to hook a Survivor and then run to the other side of the map, ignoring the other Survivors obviously running up to unhook? Without so much as a hint of joking, yes. Hell Borrowed Time literally makes going in to stop someone from unhooking a non-starter most times, because you're gonna run in, woopsy doodle they're now in your terror radius so free hit, then they both sprint burst or lithe away and go back to pallet looping forever. And as already said before, SWF period is another huge unbalancing factor in the game because people are just gonna get on discord or whatever else and basically cheat. Free bond and empathy for everyone in the party, someone with OoO can just tell you where the killer is at all times, people can tell you if the killer is trying to Insidious hide somewhere, people can tell you where lit up totems are and more. They've let the game become so stacked in the survivors favor to a point where there's probably no fixing it anymore, almost all their big Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 06:52
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Honestly speaking the teachable perks seem like such a bad idea to me, it means that there's no real decision made behind who you play as if you've played long enough because everyone should always have the best perks equipped.
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Nov 14, 2017 07:37
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you have been posting in this thread long enough to know that every balance decision is made with the presumption that everyone always has the best perks equipped because they have been playing for a zillion years
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Nov 14, 2017 07:40
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Eldercain posted:I get the killers are supposed to be scary terries or whatever, but wrt bodyblocking you have to understand that survivors are essentially giving up time to get to you, time to heal, and a chance that it might not matter at all to add 2 seconds to a wiggle. I think it's fine and fits with the theme of "do you help someone else with your sacrifice or leave them while you escape" they cultivated around survivor play. Gameplaywise the hell else are you going to do? And worst case if you've been breaking pallets how far are they realistically going to get? I want to be clear I'm not trying to be antagonistic about this one, I just legit don't understand why killers have beef with it. Oh I understand bodyblocking is giving up time, but it's a fairly minimal investment for what often is a very big reward. And I am gonna stand on the idea that, seriously, we are supposed to be big scary murderers, we shouldn't be full stopped by a little beanpole like Dwight sitting his twig-rear end down in front of me. Hell, if I'm playing a meatslab like Trapper I could just step over him. I do understand from a gameplay mechanic, but it does bug me. If I could drop survivors quicker or something to deal with it I wouldn't have anywhere near the issues, but eh. It's not something I see being changed. Again it's the risk vs reward I was talking about in my other post, 4 people up and running around, either stalling me or doing gens, or even healing each other is a pretty good reward for so little investment of time or danger. And I know Lightweight exists, and it is good, and I'm happy more people don't use it, but it's not quite the same unless it got changed sometime recently and I didn't notice, it just reduces how long the scratches last, I'm honestly talking about a perk that flat out after x# seconds or something cuts off the sprint lines for x# of seconds or something. But of course a perk like that takes into account other changes I'd like to see, not really how the game currently is. Or maybe it could open up some new perk builds for Survivors, hell if I know. Again, I mostly play Killer. And since I suck at quotes, also in response to TGLT: Entirely agreed. Random babblings were sort of my 'ideal' of what the game 'should' be, which of course it ain't. But yeah, sliding scales/attrition mechanic, whatever you want to call it, to give better reward for things that, right now, have little to no real incentive to change how or why people play. It's the whole camping argument. Camping sucks, but in a lot of ways it's actually encouraged by the current mechanics. And overall with what I was saying, if incentives were given to play otherwise, it'd be how I would balance the risk to reward. Currently there is very little reward for a Killer to leave a hook and hope their victim doesn't get unhooked while they look for someone else, and if you're looking to rank up, it's actively bad to NOT secure a kill as best you can. In my 'ideal vision' there would be rewards for the Killers to not camp too, and rewards to the survivors own goals for playing brave or evading the Killer well. But y'know, this is mostly just me and my inane 'what-ifs' and 'I-wish-it-weres'. Devs seem to have their own ideas about how to balance things that I don't always agree with. It just kinda sucks that a lot of my games feel like I have to either choose between getting BP and having lots of fun or getting a win.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:11
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Progression Kills Games. I hate how it's basically shoehorned into everything these days.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:22
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Stanley Pain posted:Progression Kills Games. I hate how it's basically shoehorned into everything these days. lol you have been grinding this axe in this thread alone for literally years and even the last time it came up you ended up agreeing with my point that it keeps games going longer, and the real problem is THIS progression system, and how you felt forced to do things for the benefit of other people. for the record, you were an insufferable fucknut about then as i presume you are about to be now - folks click his question mark if you think i'm exaggerating. this thread is basically a honeypot for games ideologues it's hilarious Coolguye fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 00:53
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Coolguye posted:lol I got tired of arguing  I still don't like progression in a lot of games. Especially FPS games, or where unlocks that fundamentally change the game are hiding behind 10s of hours of grinding.My point is that it's being shoehorned into games more and more and adding very little to the actual gameplay and in fact are being used as a vehicle for some really lovely monetization. I don't think you can argue that.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:20
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Coolguye posted:you have been grinding this axe in this thread alone for literally years and even the last time it came up you ended up agreeing with my point that it keeps games going longer, and the real problem is THIS progression system, and how you felt forced to do things for the benefit of other people. for the record, you were an insufferable fucknut about then as i presume you are about to be now - folks click his question mark if you think i'm exaggerating. I did as you commanded and I didn't see anything like you described, I am pretty sure you are exaggerating. You're generally a pretty cool guy but I think you just get too mad about games sometimes. Progression systems are actually quite bad outside of RPGs. This game has one of the worst progression systems, but it's pretty rare they're done well in general.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:50
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Cup Runneth Over posted:I did as you commanded and I didn't see anything like you described, I am pretty sure you are exaggerating. You're generally a pretty cool guy but I think you just get too mad about games sometimes. Progression systems are actually quite bad outside of RPGs. This game has one of the worst progression systems, but it's pretty rare they're done well in general. Stanley Pain posted:When I'm playing a killer I don't give a gently caress if I'm ruining someone's "progression", or allowing them to get points, or whatever loving stupid poo poo people are going to cry about. I could go on a huge rear end rant about how stupid progression systems are in games like this but I won't. Suffice it to say that I'm not keen on them in general. Especially when they gate things in this way. just one of two or three such posts - click on that to go to the post and you'll note i wasn't talking about that at all in the post he's quoting, either! this is why i call him an ideologue and why i find him insufferable.
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Nov 15, 2017 02:50
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The devs need to fix that, it's not my job as the killer to accommodate for that though.
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There's nothing wrong with what I posted... I'll slightly refine what I said. Progression systems outside of cosmetic upgrades are dumb as gently caress in games like this. Locking perks, weapon upgrades (in FPSes), etc is dumb and bad and getting worse. ESPECIALLY when it's locked behind loot boxes or really long grinds. Heck my total time played in a game might be 20-40 hours, I don't have time to grind for 40+ hours just to unlock some poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:33
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Coolguye posted:just one of two or three such posts - click on that to go to the post and you'll note i wasn't talking about that at all in the post he's quoting, either! this is why i call him an ideologue and why i find him insufferable. Yeah it's not really insufferable, especially compared to some of the stuff you've posted ITT. I read that post and all the rest of his. I think you're taking it too personally.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:38
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Progression systems are a skinner box to keep people playing through repetitive content in order to watch some numbers go up or play the drop lottery and it's specially bad in a competitive game if they unlock mechanics. It's triple bad in an asymetrical competitive game.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:43
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I think even if they wanted to keep the idea of persisent progress, letting you target upgrades a lot more (rather than needing to level up like 6 survivors) would be fine. (By which I mean 10x as tolerable and let people the drat game as they want without being a streamer that plays 8 hrs a day)
Fayk fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 05:00
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Yeah it's not really insufferable, especially compared to some of the stuff you've posted ITT. I read that post and all the rest of his. I think you're taking it too personally. pahaha what precisely am i taking personally Stanley Pain posted:There's nothing wrong with what I posted... as i said at the time, i in principle agree with you but this isn't a refinement, this is a complete change in position, i presume because you realized in the last 12 months that your stated position wasn't practical. or reasonable. or approachable. ZearothK posted:Progression systems are a skinner box to keep people playing through repetitive content in order to watch some numbers go up or play the drop lottery and it's specially bad in a competitive game if they unlock mechanics. It's triple bad in an asymetrical competitive game. it's quad bad when the developers presume everyone's filled the skinner box Coolguye fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 08:22
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You can say you're not mad but he wasn't even talking to you, and you responded to him and called him an insufferable fucknut because he had a mild disagreement with you previously that you found infuriating. Chill.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:24
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Cup Runneth Over posted:You can say you're not mad but he wasn't even talking to you, and you responded to him and called him an insufferable fucknut because he had a mild disagreement with you previously that you found infuriating. Chill. are we still posting on somethingawful or did we change forums here e: like for real this sort of accusation of internet mad is more appropriate for an MMO forum rather than a place where you discuss multiple things. how am i holding water for THIS game of all games? Coolguye fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 08:26
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It's OK Coolguye, I still like you even though you like games with bad progression systems. 
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Nov 15, 2017 13:17
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while we are on that subject the first South Park game is the only game that truly understands me
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Nov 15, 2017 18:13
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I picked this game up around the time Myers was released, and for the first couple weeks the tension and horror elements of the game were just unreal. Like, my actual heart rate increased when the killer was near and I would yelp out loud when they found me. Later on, as the novelty wore off, I experimented playing as the killer. I've encountered survivor/killer collaborations, coordinated teams of survivors all in the same outfit and with flashlights griefing me and dragging the games out as long as possible, and just the general impression that the game mechanics do not support the theme that the killer is scary and menacing as they dance around pallets, body block, and wait around farming blood points when the exits are open and I can't stop them. I've come to agree with the sentiment in this thread that the game kind of sucks despite it's excellent theme and atmosphere. Also, non-cosmetic progression in a multiplayer action game really blows. I don't mind getting new guns over the course of playing DOOM or whatever, but I'm playing DbD to pit my skill against another players skill under a common ruleset. Also in my expert opinion, survivors should only be allowed to heal another survivor once during a game, 3 times with a medkit, in order to even out the odds a bit.
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Nov 15, 2017 18:30
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I haven't really played killer too much until now. Gotta say, I really didn't expect how whiny and salty some survivors can be. Apparently everything is "camping" or "tunneling". And don't get me wrong, no one hates hook camping more than I do. * Play as Trapper * Catch and hook someone * Find and place a beartrap close to the hooker survivor, perhaps catching others when they try to save him * (1 second later, before I can even leave the area) Oh wait, I just received a loud noise notification because someone unhooked that guy * Obviously I attack one of them -> CAMPER
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Nov 15, 2017 19:59
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Badchay posted:I haven't really played killer too much until now. Gotta say, I really didn't expect how whiny and salty some survivors can be. For a lot of Survivors, literally anything you do if you catch them is camping, or tunneling, or hacking, or whatever other scummy play people can think of to say. Don't even worry about it. I think I get about one game in ten that someone doesn't rage-salt on me after the match even if I'm actively trying not to camp/tunnel or just point farming because I ran out of addons. There really is something about this game that brings out the worst in people. Or maybe just the worst people play it. Might explain why I like it so much.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:10
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I think part of the issue is that a lot of survivors, at least at the low ranks, really have no idea how the killer works. They might technically know that running creates scratch marks but they don't realize how bright or long lasting they are, or they don't know everything that causes a big sound notification, or they don't understand just how quickly a killer can get to a specific part of the map since they both move fast and don't need to sneak there. Although as for tunneling, I mean poo poo there is objectively no benefit for choosing a survivor that's never been hooked over one that has. It's only a step more valid than getting mad about "generator rushing". TGLT fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 00:05
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Popping back in this thread after what, two years of the game being out? It warms my heart that dunking on the killer is still super strong. I was extremely salty about trapper setting traps at the base of hooks at the start, but man it sounds like the survivors have massively overtuned now. God bless indie devs.
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Nov 16, 2017 00:17
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Putting traps right next to the hook is bad. You want to put them at the grassy chokepoints around to the hook cuz that's how you catch you a hero. I will forever treasure my memory of trapping a guy in one place so many times that I caught him on his last life setting off every trap I left there.
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Nov 16, 2017 00:19
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TGLT posted:Putting traps right next to the hook is bad. You want to put them at the grassy chokepoints around to the hook cuz that's how you catch you a hero. I will forever treasure my memory of trapping a guy in one place so many times that I caught him on his last life setting off every trap I left there. Not sure if it was changed but I was more referring to when the trapper could place a trap right where you come off the hook, making it impossible for you to escape without someone else disarming the trap first. There was a lot of "maybe you should get gud scrub  " but it was very annoying to play against because it was just boring and predictable.
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Nov 16, 2017 00:22
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Not sure if it was changed but I was more referring to when the trapper could place a trap right where you come off the hook, making it impossible for you to escape without someone else disarming the trap first. Yeah, you can now unhook from any angle so you can't just pop it down right in front of their face and catch them. I mean I guess if you wanted to bring all the traps to one hook you could make an invincible trap barrier, but that's about it. edit: I think they also limited just how close a trap could be to a hook a while back, well before they added in unhooking from any angle. It's also just wasn't a good strategy to begin with since it's not like it's that much of an advance warning. Boring and safe though. TGLT fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 00:25
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Someone accused me of camping once because I had the last two survivors in the game on the basement hooks next to each other, and I didn't leave so that they could struggle off and escape. There weren't even any pallets or generators to stomp for points, so what reason would I have to do that?
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Nov 16, 2017 01:00
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Vanguard Warden posted:Someone accused me of camping once because I had the last two survivors in the game on the basement hooks next to each other, and I didn't leave so that they could struggle off and escape. There weren't even any pallets or generators to stomp for points, so what reason would I have to do that? Look, when you hook a survivor you HAVE to run to the opposite side of the map and ignore every survivor or objective you might see, otherwise you're a camper. Get your head in the game!!!
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Nov 16, 2017 01:11
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Placing traps directly under the hook was kinda a dick move, one way or another. But I miss it, because back then no one ever expected traps other places near the hook, especially if you were smart and pre-trapped a hook zone before putting someone up. Now they're always ready for it. Poor Trapper. Still my favorite Killer, but it's so hard to catch people anymore. No one just runs blindly into my traps anymore.
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Nov 16, 2017 01:28
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Sporkie posted:Placing traps directly under the hook was kinda a dick move, one way or another. But I miss it, because back then no one ever expected traps other places near the hook, especially if you were smart and pre-trapped a hook zone before putting someone up. Now they're always ready for it. Poor Trapper. Still my favorite Killer, but it's so hard to catch people anymore. No one just runs blindly into my traps anymore. When you've got someone running around sabotaging your traps it makes it all the more satisfying when they go to juke and slam right into the one they forgot. Or back up into one just after whacking a pallet in your face, and they struggle as you kick through the board and snatch them. Or, and this might have been my favorite, when they smugdrop into the trap you left in the landing zone at coal tower after snapping the one at the ledge. I still manage to have enough fun to justify playing Trapper here and there.
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Nov 16, 2017 03:54
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Trapper used to be incredible because his area denial abilities were basically the only counter to survivor cheese. Now that there's other killers and the meta has shifted, he's not really so hot anymore.
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Nov 16, 2017 04:11
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From what I've seen, against experienced players and SWFs, traps become less about catching people who didn't see them and more about closing off avenues of escape. Even if a survivor knows that there's an obvious trap blocking a pallet or a vault, they can't disarm it if the killer is nearby. If you can get somebody onto a basement hook beneath a killer shack, three traps will lock that place down.
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Nov 16, 2017 04:16
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LeJackal posted:When you've got someone running around sabotaging your traps it makes it all the more satisfying when they go to juke and slam right into the one they forgot. Or back up into one just after whacking a pallet in your face, and they struggle as you kick through the board and snatch them. Or, and this might have been my favorite, when they smugdrop into the trap you left in the landing zone at coal tower after snapping the one at the ledge. The smugdrop traps really are the best. It's between that, or the somewhat random trap you dropped near the start of the match when you didn't know where anyone was and kinda forget about during the rest, and all of a sudden snaps someone in some weird corner that leaves you going 'why the hell did I put a trap there' and 'what the hell was that survivor doing?' Trapper may not be great in the meta, but he's still my favorite both in looks and just how he feels. I like the feel of map control. Though, admittedly once I get past rank 8 or 7 or so I basically stop using him and switch off since at that point I just don't feel like I can take the time to trap an area and sacrifice a gen or two for the greater good to get my chase zones ready. Survivors start getting super fast with the gens around then and much less stupid about where to step.
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Nov 16, 2017 12:31
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Did they remove the hex totem indicator for Huntress Lullaby? I was in a game last night where after 3-4 hooks one of my friends was like "do we have lullaby?" so I hit a gen and sure enough delay to the skill check sound. We found the totem and blew it up and he had it postgame, but never got an indicator. Later on we had the same thing happen with ruin only it's super obvious when there's a ruin because of the red skill checks. I didn't see patch notes so did they stealth patch hexes? I guess I stopped being scared of killers pretty early on. The game is thrilling when you first start but it's clearly not intended to actually be scary. Sometimes myers still spooks the piss out of me at EW1, but I guess it's just overexposure? F13 isn't terribly scary as soon as the voice of a 13 yo comes out of jason threatening to "get you". I suppose thematically yeah it's stupid to gently caress with the killer, but since sab died it's the only real option you have to do anything about someone who is caught especially since hooks/sacs are such a huge decision point to the ~victory cube~ you never know if the killer is going to leave or just run a small circle around the guy. I'm actually on team gently caress Flashlights, I think they're pretty much the worst designed item in the game and encourage fuckery in a bad way and the timing/use case for them is so ridiculously tight and arbitrary. I honestly think 90% of downs should result in a hook, but short of taking decisive what's the thing you add when you take out bodyblocking? Are you supposed to be eternally hosed against a good nurse? If you gently caress with healing the meta will just violently shift to healthkits and franklins 100% of the time, and if you mess with bodyblocking/looping you have to give survivors something else since finding a survivor is a given at this point. Also lightweight is my favorite perk it's so so so so good especially against killers that like to try to cut you off since a lot of times you'll lose them entirely once you're out of LoS for 3-4 seconds. Iron will is pretty in vogue but I see maybe 1 other person running lw in a several hour session.
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Nov 18, 2017 04:47
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Eldercain posted:Did they remove the hex totem indicator for Huntress Lullaby? I was in a game last night where after 3-4 hooks one of my friends was like "do we have lullaby?" so I hit a gen and sure enough delay to the skill check sound. We found the totem and blew it up and he had it postgame, but never got an indicator. Later on we had the same thing happen with ruin only it's super obvious when there's a ruin because of the red skill checks. I didn't see patch notes so did they stealth patch hexes? I don't know if they patched that, but I kinda like the idea they did. Make hexes last a liiiittle longer, since really I basically just throw Ruin on my Trapper just to delay the start of the game a few minutes and give me time to trap. A little more use would be great. And that is a great question, if you take body blocking, the survivors do need another thing to slow the Killer down. I'd like to see Sabo brought up in a way that it'd be more easily usable. Coolguye mentioned 1 hook removal a game, and honestly I'd be perfectly good with that for starters, but I don't know... I keep thinking about it, but any idea I have I like immediately go 'wait, Survivors would abuse the hell out of this, or it's a death sentence'. Actually I'd love to see some mechanic that instead of direct blocking, there would be a Survivor ability/perk that would let them like, tackle a Killer that's carrying someone else and make the Killer drop the person they're carrying, sort of like if you dropped a pallet on him. But I keep thinking of all the ways that could be abused, and I know I'd get frustrated by it horribly unless it was on a massive cooldown or something, and there would need to be some risk to the Survivor too, but that's... Yeah. It'd be a hard idea to balance I think. And speaking as a Killer, freaking Nurses man. I hate 'em. She's somewhat hard to play and get used to her blink, but man I hate her. I honestly still think she needs another negative to her kit, cause she still feels too strong the rare times I play her, or play SWF and go up against her.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:16
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Sporkie posted:I don't know if they patched that, but I kinda like the idea they did. Make hexes last a liiiittle longer, since really I basically just throw Ruin on my Trapper just to delay the start of the game a few minutes and give me time to trap. A little more use would be great. I'd be ok with lullaby not showing up until the first hook since it doesn't do anything with no charges, same way devour hope doesn't show up til the first oneshot. It was just weird because it was inconsistent with what I remember, but I'm up against lullaby so infrequently it's hard to say if I'm remembering right. I think sab is probably the right direction to look since it's essentially only useful in 4man stacks that want to be abusive with it, but they'd need to find some way to split the difference between slug meta and hooks everywhere meta. There have been games where someone gets off because the killer downed them near a hook someone was sac'd on, and I think that kind of permanent damage needs to exist. Maybe 1 hook per survivor with sab is correct? The case of 4 hooks removed via offering + 4 hooks removed by survivors is still something to think about, but I'm not sure that's really worse than the old ebony mori or those completely irritating people who take both ultra rare myers addons and then depip regardless I mean really the whole idea of the game is survivors interact with/affect the map and the playability of it (using up pallets, finishing gens to make killers not go there, sabing hooks) and killers find the survivors in the increasingly small gameplay area. Having a little control would be better than forcing it all into purposefully interacting with the killer
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Nov 18, 2017 23:53
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Eldercain posted:those completely irritating people who take both ultra rare myers addons and then depip regardless Did this for the first time the other day and got 1 sac 3 kills. Would do again A+++++. I'm a killer, not a 'sacrificer'. F U ENTITY.
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Nov 19, 2017 02:39
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